Stories from the Sales Frontlines

Kirstie_H

I guess I'm thinking about it today, as there's a potential move to Minneapolis in my future (though I hope not). When you live in an area that's cold & snowy in Winter, you need unfrozen nozzles. Hard to clean off the cinder and dirt that flies up on the windshield if you've got no fluid coming out.

I'm not saying the $100 isn't fair - just that some people would way, way rather have the nozzles than the $100. That's why they paid $100 for them in the first place.

My heated seats go into action when it gets below 50.

fezo

I wonder what they charged customers for that feature? I remember Buick making a big deal about them trying to sell Lucernes.

You can, of course, take this argument about how did we do without these things to silly extremes. Heck, I've had cars that had no windshield washer fluid at all - forget about heated! No mist setting for the wipers either. Amazingly i am still alive.

Kirstie_H

Of course, we did without a TON of features that are available today. We also weren't charged for them.

fezo

You have to watch out for some of us. We remember things like driving a full size car with no power steering! Oy!

At one point my dad had a 70 Ford Custom with no power steering. Later he had a 71 Galaxy 500 with power steering. It was a killer to turn the Custom at low speed and you couldn't blink without turning the car in the Galaxy.

isellhondas

Well, there is a BIG difference between a Minnesota winter and a Seattle winter.

Spent 2 weeks in MN as a teenager and that was enough. The mosquitos, horse flies and deer flies nearly ate me alive.

gogiboy

"Yeah, I suppose. ust seems like such a wimpy feature to me. It freezes where I am and I've never had my nozzles freeze up and even if they did it sure wouldn't be a big deal, at least to me."

I once had the nozzles freeze up on my 94 Civic. I was driving on the Ohio Turnpike from MI to MD. It was one of those days where it was just below freezing and so there was plenty of nasty road spray that made visibility poor. Periodically I stopped at those turnpike gas stations and cleaned the windows with their solution and a squeegee.

Later I replaced the problematic washer fluid (likely purchased in OK) with some low- temp rated stuff I bought in MI. Problem solved and instead of replacing a $100 dollar feature it cost me $1.00.

Back in the mid-80s I was traveling with my mom to visit my grandmother. Same thing happened with her Chevy Celebrity (most ironic car name ever?). We stopped at a gas station and stuck a pin in the nozzles. Problem solved. Good to see that GM has made so many technological advances in the intervening 25 years.

Gogiboy

gogiboy

"Spent 2 weeks in MN as a teenager and that was enough. The mosquitos, horse flies and deer flies nearly ate me alive."

When I lived in WI there was a prevalent bumper sticker stating that the Mosquito should be named the state bird.

Gogiboy

jmonroe

When I lived in WI there was a prevalent bumper sticker stating that the Mosquito should be named the state bird.

Man...do I feel for people that live in places that have a delta temperature from winter to summer that is easily greater than 120 degrees F. That can really mess you up.

jmonroe

lrguy44

What I love about here is one can ski in the morning and play golf in the afternoon.

michaellno

What I love about here is one can ski in the morning and play golf in the afternoon.

While I don't ski I've played golf with folks who claimed to have skiied that very morning before teeing it up.

When I moved to Colorado, I was told that Denver received more days of sunshine than either San Diego or Miami.

What they don't tell you is that many of those days the ambient temperature is below 40 degrees.

Hey, it's cold enough to freeze your tongue to a lamppost - but look! The sun is shining, so everything's OK.

Wife wants to move to a place where, she states, she "never has to wear socks".

Any thoughts?

lrguy44

My wife wants her (to quote a Zac Brown song) toes in the water and her a__ in the sand. I do not know how long you have been here but the last three or so winters debunk global warming. Most times we will hit the 60s or higher 4-7 days each month in the winter. If I am not mistaken, A Basin is still open. at least it was a couple of weeks ago. The other thing is a sunny 50 degree day here feels like 70 elsewhere and one can be in shirt sleeves. My Harley gets driven every month of the year. Besides, I live at 5300 feet - you are most likely a bit higher.

driver100

The $100 is payment for loss of use and the dealer will disable the heater.

Just hope the steering wheel doesn't fall apart and the steering wheel maker goes bankrupt. If that happens and GM gives me a cheque for $300 to buy a new steering wheel I would be upset.

If I bought the car with a heater for washer fluid I expect it to be properly made, and replaced if it becomes a safety issue. I don't expect a refund. GM are the "experts" at building cars...they should stand behind their product enough that they will fix it if it wasn't right. I have no burning desire to buy any GM vehicle but this would certainly clinch it for me.

driver100

It freezes where I am and I've never had my nozzles freeze up and even if they did it sure wouldn't be a big deal,

I have had a mud splattered windshield and frozen windshield washer fluid and it isn't fun.

If this happens to you and you are in an accident could you sue GM? Probably, but once you accept the $100 they would probably be off the hook (according to my legal knowledge from watching Judge Judy).

It's just plain cheezy....if they cared about their product and their customer they would make it right, or at least offer $100 or a repair..

driver100

If something is broke, fix it. Don’t pawn it off on the customers with a few bucks and the thought that this will pacify them.

Right on! That's what I am trying to say but you said it much more eloquently.

houdini1

Isn't that washer fluid sort of like antifreeze ? I thought it was not supposed to freeze at all.

jayrider

If you get a premium washer fluid, nothing will freeze up. The oil change shops top you up with blue water so pump the system dry before it gets cold and fill with the good stuff. I always tell the dude changing the oil not to touch the resevior-- my hands only. I always have decent fluid year round.

isellhondas

You can "expect" things to work perfectly but in the real world it's a different story.

It kinda sounds like there isn't a good fix for this. Yes, they "should" have known this but, in their defense, unexpected things happen sometimes.

michaellno

I do not know how long you have been here but the last three or so winters debunk global warming. Most times we will hit the 60s or higher 4-7 days each month in the winter. If I am not mistaken, A Basin is still open. at least it was a couple of weeks ago. The other thing is a sunny 50 degree day here feels like 70 elsewhere and one can be in shirt sleeves. My Harley gets driven every month of the year. Besides, I live at 5300 feet - you are most likely a bit higher.

I moved to Colorado from California in 1993; my wife has lived in CO and WY her whole life, so I can understand her desire for a change of scenery.

A-Basin closed earlier this week, according to the local news.

And yes, here in Castle Rock, we're at around 6300 feet of elevation.

jayrider

Our auto industry has been filled with people who put cronyism and nepotism above competency. That includes management as well as the unions. Met a gent who worked for years at G.E. Told me good people were canned regularly to be replaced by friends and family. This problem is rampant but with the crash someone might actually be paying attention to the product instead of personal interests. The Japanese were able to minimize[not eliminate] this cancer over the years and the result was reliable cars that people wanted. We still have a lot of rotten apples in the barrel fighting for their jobs. It will take a tremendous amount of energy and persistance to right the ships and keep them afloat. I am hopeful and optimistic but it is going to take years to get it right. They are moving in the right direction only because they have to to survive. The cars are getting better but the organization is still seriously flawed.

tcp2

Seems my impression of this "heated washer" thing was misguided. It apparently actually heats the fluid coming out of the system to the degree that it will melt ice on the windshield. That requires a LOT more energy and heat than just keeping the nozzles clear. Heated nozzles are not uncommon, but the GM system seems unique to GM. Nobody else could keep it from burning up cars...and neither could GM, they just installed it though.

Something like this:

http://www.windshieldwiperheaters.com/

It also seems to me that if you have any small chips or cracks in the windshield, hitting it with hot water at very cold temperatures would cause the cracks to expand or the windshield to shatter.

driver100

Isn't that washer fluid sort of like antifreeze ? I thought it was not supposed to freeze at all.

Windshield washer fluid usually doesn't freeze, but if the temperature gets cold enough and the car hasn't been used in awhile it can freeze.

I just think it is unprofessional to produce a car, have a fault with an important little extra, and when something is defective the manufacturer tells you I don't want to fix it, here's your money back.

Let's say the seatbelt falls apart. The manufacturer went bankrupt. GM tells you here's $50 bucks because our seatbelt broke and we are too incompetent to find a way to repair it for you. Then, would you say, "We managed without seatbelts for years before 1965, so the cash sounds fine, I can get by without seatbelts?"

lrguy44

moved to Colorado from California in 1993; my wife has lived in CO and WY her whole life,

I moved here myself in 93 and my wife grew up in Cody.

lrguy44

Let's say the seatbelt falls apart. The manufacturer went bankrupt. GM tells you here's $50 bucks because our seatbelt broke and we are too incompetent to find a way to repair it for you. Then, would you say, "We managed without seatbelts for years before 1965, so the cash sounds fine, I can get by without seatbelts?"

There is a BIG safety difference between a heated washer and a seat belt. Let us keep it in perspective.

jmonroe

Isn't that washer fluid sort of like antifreeze ? I thought it was not supposed to freeze at all.

The stuff I use is probably like what most everybody uses. The bottle says it's good for minus 20 F. I don't want to find out that they are right.

I've never had a freezing problem until it hits the windshield. Then I get a nice even thin film of ice that I'm trying to peek through. That's why I make sure the defroster has been on long enough so that doesn't happen too often.

Maybe that gizmo that 'tcp2' posted about would work but I also don't like the idea of hot water hitting my cold windshield, so I'll pass on that contraption.

jmonroe

driver100

There is a BIG safety difference between a heated washer and a seat belt. Let us keep it in perspective.

There is a big difference if we are talking safety feature. Not a big difference if we are talking principle. Heated fluid was supposed to be a good selling feature. The engineering department didn't study this feature enough. I think it shows incompetence to have a feature that doesn't work properly. It was false advertising to offer the feature and then to give you your money back when it doesn't work.

It doesn't instill confidence in the product. How would you feel if your power windows stopped working? The manufacturer can't fix it but they will install cranks and return $2000, the cost of the PWs. Difference in importance, but the same principle.

driver100

You're right tcp2, that seems to be what it is. These guys liked it when they tested it:

Heating the washer fluid makes a lot of sense. During especially cold days—as often seen in Detroit in January—even the alcohol-based washer fluid doesn’t cut through the grime. So GM offered a system that heated the fluid, and on the few cars we tried with the feature, the system worked brilliantly.

But, unfortunately, the system may also cause an engine fire. The first fix, in 2008, was to install a separate fuse in the system’s wiring—apparently that wasn’t enough. Now GM is recalling all 1.5 million vehicles with heated washer-fluid systems. Sadly, there is no fix this time around and the company that supplied the system is now out of business. The dealer will simply deactivate the system. To compensate owners, GM will hand over a $100 check, which means this episode will cost the general at least a staggering $150 million. Ouch.

Personally, I wouldn't like getting check for $100. It's insulting because the device sold for $150 in your article, but if they installed it they should be able to make it work - or it is poor engineering and poor R&D.

cdnpinhead

The Japanese were smart and relentless.

Ain't that the truth. :sick:

I'd say that several of the Asian cultures are, in addition to being smart and relentless, very hard-working and take the long view. It's a winning combination. There was a time when we in North America did such things.

That was then. . .

That said, what they do not appear to be is innovative; derivative is more like it -- losing face, and all that.

Whether that continues to be the case remains to be seen. When the four aforementioned factors combine with innovation, we'll be toast. Hmmm, what's that I smell?

That hardworking long-view thing is killer, compared to what I have to deal with in corporate America today.

tidester

Windshield washer fluid usually doesn't freeze, but if the temperature gets cold enough and the car hasn't been used in awhile it can freeze.

Part of the problem is that if you are using the washer fluid while the car is moving then the air flowing over the windshield causes the alcohol to evaporate very quickly. Without the alcohol, the water can freeze and, to make matters worse, the evaporation causes the water to become much colder. Squirting more fluid onto the windshield doesn't help.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

lrguy44

It doesn't instill confidence in the product. How would you feel if your power windows stopped working

Again, not even close to apples to apples. Most cars have power windows, few have heated washers. With the vendor going under and nobody else producing parts, it becomes a tough issue.As I understand it there were very few actual fires (maybe 5) and no injuries. Play the odds and just keep them. Maybe a better resolution was possible but the rhetoric here is very overstated. By the way, LRs get around this issue by having heated windshields. A much better idea and I have often wondered why few others do this.

driver100

the evaporation causes the water to become much colder. Squirting more fluid onto the windshield doesn't help

Good explanation. I always wondered why I have streaky windows after squirting windshield fluid on them.

Like someone said, they can get a man to the moon but they can't make a descent windshield wiper.

I like that idea of a heated windshield though.

driver100

Again, not even close to apples to apples. Most cars have power windows, few have heated washers.

I am overstating the issue, but my point is if you don't get the small things right, and if you don't care or have pride in your workmanship, then I am not interested in buying. A heated windshield washer is a minor item, but it is the attitude that is my problem. Here's a 100 bucks, now you go get it fixed. At first the engineers tried one solution....a stronger fuse - that took some really genius thinking. Wonder if they tried a penny, maybe that's what caused fires. Maybe that is why they have been losing market share?

Like I said, they can get a man to the moon but GM can't find a solution to keeping their device, a heated windshield fluid holder, heated, without causing a possible fire. Small detail yes, do I want to spend $20, 30 or 40k on their car? I don't think so.

isellhondas

Again, you are taking this WAY out of perspective!

Yes, things should work.

So they came out with a trivial little "feature" that didn't work out.

Life isn't always "fair".

So, you won't buy a GM car. We know that!

driver100

So they came out with a trivial little "feature" that didn't work out.

My issue is not this minor issue. It is what this attitude really means.

It is the same kind of problem I have with my telephone company or cable company. I want it fixed and I don't want to be put on hold or go through 27 different telephone prompts. Or be put through to someone in India.

Fine, you can accept it as a minor flaw and you are willing to overlook it.

I say if you can't get the little things right, I don't have much confinence you will get the other things right.

And I am responding to someone who if they gave him back his car and they painted it a different color or dented a fender he couldn't care less. Just joking!!!!! :P

jmonroe

Without the alcohol, the water can freeze and, to make matters worse, the evaporation causes the water to become much colder. Squirting more fluid onto the windshield doesn't help.

That’s why I try to ensure that my defrosters have been on long enough to heat the windshield so that freezing doesn’t occur. I’m not always smart enough to do that so when I forget the laws of physics, I’m immediately reminded of them.

FWIW, about that after market hot water squirtter that was linked to a post awhile back, I haven’t read the manual for that gizmo so I can’t be sure about what it says but since hot water (150 F) hitting an ice cold windshield can cause a problem with cracking, I think they would say that preheating the windshield via the defrosters prior to activation should be done.

jmonroe

sterlingdog

All of these posts on windshield fluid---heated or otherwise---need a final answer. Here it is: If your fluid doesn't come out or is not effective, take a regular size can of Coke and slowly pour it over the windshield. Wait two minutes. Turn on wipers. Your windshield will be clear of ice, dirt, grime and no visible streaks. Case closed.

Richard

jwilliams2

"All of these posts on windshield fluid---heated or otherwise---need a final answer. Here it is: If you [sic] fluid doesn't come out or is not effective, take a regular size can of Coke and slowly pour it over the windshield. Wait two minutes. Turn on wipers. Your windshield will be clear of ice, dirt, grime and no visible streaks. Case closed. "

This assumes you have 18 layers of wax (like jmonroe) to prevent damage to the paint.

sterlingdog

We are so spoiled. My parents had a 1962 Buick Electra tank with no power steering. My mother was 5'2'' and weighed 98 pounds. She drove that car for eight years with no complaints. When Dad bought her a new one in 1970, she nearly wrecked the car getting used to the power steering.

My first Pontiac convertible (1967) had no air conditioning. I lived. We didn't purchase a color TV until 1973 (to watch Gone With the Wind). We lived just fine with black and white pictures. Our first house (1967) had no air conditioning---just an attic fan. We lived just fine. Last but not least, we lived without cell phones and computers until 1995. All of this to say that creature comforts are affordable to those who can pay for them. Otherwise, you won't die without them.

Richard

sterlingdog

Thanks. I corrected the "you". If it's raining or snowing, you won't damage the paint. Naturally, you'll wash your car the next day.

Richard

isellhondas

I know what you are saying.

I too think things should work but as I have become older I've tried to tune out the things I have no control over.

I hate telephone prompts and eventually talking to a person in India that I can't understand. As a country we have sold ourselves out and I hate that!

This is why I stick with State Farm. When I call my office, a PERSON picks up the phone. " State Farm, this is Bob".

" Oh hi Craig, what can I do for you"

Instead of having to push 12 buttons and after 15 minutes get connected to "Rawinder" who I can't understand.

So I avoid the companies whose names end in "co" or hire lizards to do those stupid commercials.

Do I pay a bit more? Perhaps.

And SF won't drop me like a bad habit if I get unlucky enough to get three tickets in a year or have an at fault accident.

isellhondas

Let's see now...getting even for the spelling corrections...

Power steering was standard equipment in Buick Electras in 1962.

Was Gone with the Wind in color back then?

imidazol97

> take a regular size can of Coke and slowly pour it over the windshield

Or for those of us young enough to remember what "soda fountain" really means, that can be cherry Coke!!!

imidazol97

>This assumes you have 18 layers of wax

The Coke doesn't have anything that makes it dissolve waxes; instead it beads up. It's not going to penetrate. Hopefully it runs down the normal drains under the windshield which also take in air for the interior HVAC to use.

jmonroe

The Coke doesn't have anything that makes it dissolve waxes; instead it beads up.

That may be but you ain’t pouring it on a car that I just waxed. :mad:

jmonroe

tcp2

That coke will freeze into a lovely cascading brown icefall on your windshield at -30. Like someone squirted diarrhea all over it. Useful? :P

imidazol97

As I posted in another discussion, the number of people affected by not having a heated washer fluid unit is probably trivial. I get that by taking the number of cars sold and multiplying by 365 days per year (actually 365.25 minus a slight correction to adjust for the revolution of the earth) and then dividing that into the number of vehiclex X days where the heated unit was actually used in a cold climate.

I would expect less than 1% to be the number of vehicle days the heated pseudoalcohol was heated. And part of those quality antifreeze mix without heating would work to remove stuff from the windshield.

imidazol97

And power windows would have more than one supplier able to step in and replace parts from a manufacturer who had gone out of business.

lemko

I've had my 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance for 3 years and used that heated washer fluid feature once the whole time I had my car and that was just to see if it really worked, (it does). Most times, I just crank the heat and let the car run a few minutes and the ice and snow is gone.

driver100

take a regular size can of Coke and slowly pour it over the windshield.

Good idea. Should I carry around a few cans of Coke with me all winter in case my windshield gets dirty? Should I pull over by the highway and just shake a can of Coke and then pour it on. Maybe I should fill the windshield squirter with Coke instead of anti-freeze stuff. Maybe GM should send out a can of Coke instead of a $100 bill.

Doesn't Coke eat right through rusty nails - what happens to my car?

If I run out of Coke will Dr. Pepper work?

wlbrown9

I have it on my Outlook. I have used it once or twice...okay but not a must have feature. I looked around and found details on an Edmunds road test on the 2008 Saturn Outlook XR. It was part of the base convenience package "Convenience Package ($870 – includes power liftgate, rear park assist, remote start, heated washer fluid), "

Bill

driver100

And power windows would have more than one supplier able to step in and replace parts from a manufacturer who had gone out of business.

I think GM could find a company to manufacture heated window washer fluid too. It's just CHEAPER to mail a $100 check. Cheapest is not always best for me the consumer. Like I said, heated windshield washer container - not a big deal - the way GM handles a problem - tells me a lot.

If you don't have enough pride in the quality of your product then don't expect me to get too excited about buying it. Everyone will cash in their check. Some smart person won't - will have an accident because their window washer didn't work - they will sue GM for a few million dollars - GM will still be ahead financially, because the $100 check is cheaper than paying out claims. Homey don't play that game!