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We did some math one night and I think at 3.00 a gallon, the breakeven point came around 150,000 miles. Made no sense.
The person I know who bought a hybrid bought a Lexus RS400 (or whatever they are called). Their kids insisted on them getting a hybrid because that is what they are taught in school. Personally, I wouldn't buy anything because one of my children thought I should. I don't think the schools should be telling kids to get their parents to buy a certain type of car - like a hybrid. I would buy what I want to buy, when my kids buy their cars they can buy whatever they want.....I won't say a word, unless asked.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In the mid-70's we belonged to a couple's bridge club. We particularly enjoyed one couple and did a lot of things together like ball games, dinner at each other's home, etc. One evening they invited us for dinner at their home. They sprung Amway on us to the tune of a four hour presentation. We were exhausted and pissed by the time that we got home. Come to find out later that they had done this same thing to the other four couples in the bridge club. The friendship ended pretty quickly.
In the 80's I had a friend who taught English at the local university. He called one evening and asked if he could come over to discuss "a situation". The situation was Amway. After about five minutes, I interrupted him and told him what I thought about the Amway pyramid scheme. I ranted for about ten minutes and he left. I avoided contact with him after that episode.
You are correct. They never identify Amyway until well into the discussion. I don't like deception, especially among friends.
Richard
Interesting that you mentioned it. Our friends who purchased the Subaru Outback now have buyer's remorse. Their 40 year old son pushed and insisted that they buy an Outback. They both had wanted an SRX like ours. They like the Outback, but don't have the cargo room and some of the features that we enjoy in the SRX. The wife is especially upset with the purchase. I don't know why they felt that they had to listen to their son. That would be like me listening to my nephew---NOT! A person should buy the car that they want. After all, they're the ones who will live with it. If it turns out to be a mistake, at least it is their mistake.
Richard
Most drive less expensive cars, I know I do. My apolitical son drives the Caddy.
I paid for it, do that count?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I was seated at the table of a relative's relative who was a retired car salesman. Like Isell, he sold Hondas. He said that in the near future there would be no more car salepeople because all transactions would be done on line and even the test-drives would be done on the computer. Normally I would have said this was nuts but the day before I saw a Mitsu ad that said they would let you actually drive an Outlander by remote control from your home computer. (Don't ask me how).
That kind of one ups the home visit test drive.
As I said we took the wife's car and all I can say is "What was Chrysler doing keeping that 1990s 2.4L engine in a 2009 vehicle?" I only managed 28.5 mpg average @65-70 mph. This was the same as the highway milage on my Eclipse with 2 more cyl. and 113 more hp. Very bad.
I also wished for the first time that I had a GPS system. On the way back I misread a sign and took a nice tour of Philly before getting back over into NJ. I didn't bring a map either because I "knew" the way. How was I to know that they moved all the roads since I had been ther last? Very rude of them. :mad:
In Delaware I saw a billboard for a big auto show. I insisted that we detour to go see it but my wife convinced me that I would have a hard time driving home with my eyes swollen shut. :sick:
Oh yeah, the wedding was nice too. :P
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Excellent point, & one that's not widely appreciated. Most people - particularly those who trade frequently - grossly underestimate the impact of depreciation on the total cost of car ownership. Instead, they focus on fuel & post-warranty repair costs, even though depreciation is the real killer.
I think a lot of people buy at or near the limit of their means which makes the incremental costs of gasoline and post warranty repair much more significant than they would otherwise be. That could be a good thing if it reduces overall demand for oil.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
That's easy. Take your pet Doberman off of his leash.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
In Delaware I saw a billboard for a big auto show. I insisted that we detour to go see it but my wife convinced me that I would have a hard time driving home with my eyes swollen shut.
That would only involve some pain. You've already admitted that you drive with your eyes shut. :P
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Ah, the paycheck-to-paycheck crowd. There isn't much that we can do for these folks beyond suggesting that they look into David Ramsey's thoughts about personal finance.
It was the $77 thingy plus the royalty fee.
2025 Forester Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport
Or it's like the shop materials fee the dealers like to add on to repairs of a car.
Those should already have been covered in the negotiated price.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I heard on the radio this morning that when it comes to buying real estate men just want to know the monthly payment, and see if it fits their budget, women want to know more details such as the interest rates, if the principle can be paid off earlier, interest rates etc. The bank studying this is going to offer a specialist who can work with customers to discuss payments in depth.
I wonder if it is similar with cars. Men are more likely to say, $300 a month, yes, I can manage that. Women, more like what is the interest rate, what if I can get a loan at a lower rate etc.
I think people on a limited budget are going to be very concerned about the cost of gas and maintenance costs. Spending an extra $20 a week on gas could be a budget breaker.
When I traded in the X3 for the 328 I felt a little better about using 25% less gas. If everyone could find a way to use 10% less gas it would probably equal millions of barrels of oil a day in savings, for the country.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
We’ve had this discussion before. While it may sound like a 'doc fee' to you, there is a difference (at least in my case) because I was informed of the Music Royalty Fee up front when I spoke with XM about getting the Zwinback offer. It wasn’t like a traditional doc fee where most people go in to the back room to find out the true cost of what it’s going to take to make the deal happen.
I’ll say it again I like satellite radio and would have paid MSRP to get it so anything they took off the regular price I was going to take it.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
DUH isn’t this what the environmentalists have been harping on for many years now?
I will do my part as best as I can but I won’t buy a car solely for the savings it will give me in gas mileage. I am oblivious to this when I buy a car and always have been. I remember not buying some cars that were known to be more economical but they didn’t fill the need for what I wanted in a car and that was when all we knew about big cars is that it costs you more money for gas. We didn’t know anything about the environment back then although we should have.
Like I said, I’ll just do my part in other ways.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I propose a federal mandate stating that all municipalities should eliminate 15% of all of their redlights and stop signs. They would be in town. My bet is traffic would flow better, and more efficiently. As a result, say gas usage in vehicles would drop by....oh, I dunno....let's say 5%. Overall oil usage in the U.S. would probably drop 2% (if not more) as a result.
That means, lower fuel prices while also lowering usage.
Besides, there is little relationship to supply/demand of gasoline/oil and the price. Like now, there is no reasonable explanation for the price/gal to be hovering anywhere near $2.50-$3.00/gal. Time and again, we here that pricing is determined by a few big financial firms. After and expose a couple of years ago was made public regarding this, oil prices crashed (from $4/gal to under $2/gal). Allegedly, those trading loopholes were closed. Apparently not enough of them were closed or other loopholes were found in manipulating oil prices.
I heard a prediction that the cost should be dropping to nearer $2 based on reserves and demand.
However, I later heard that not just speculators are involved in the oil futures pricing, but that the oil companies themselves play in that arena as a part of hedging the value of their holdings. Consequently, I believe part of the maintenance of the $3.00 goal for gas despite higher reserves and this low demand time is a result of manipulation by the oil companies.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is smart, buy what you want because you want it. Some people buy hybrids to save the environment but who really knows, those cars might end up being harder on the environment.
So much talk about saving the environment and I waited for a train to go by for 10 minutes, on a very busy road....and there is a train about 8 times a day.
But, I do try to conserve if I can. My reasons are just so we aren't as reliant on importing oil. In France they have line ups right now and a lot of stations are closed because of a shortage, with the strikes going on.
Guess my reasons are selfish, but like I say, I would buy the car I want, but, personally, I wouldn't by a Hummer right now no matter how much I wanted one.
I would be very upset if I had to pay $100+ for a fill up each time.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
$2.50 to $3 a gallon sounds pretty good, we pay over $4. UK is closer to $7! Oil went down a few dollars the other day but our prices actually shot up. I think the oil companies decided they need bigger profits.
If you find this upsetting just buy some shares of an oil company. When you see the value of the stock going up you will be happy....if you don't drive too much you may actually come out ahead.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Yes, but the more important reason, IMHO, is the national security and economic ramifications of a very negative balance of trade.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
I think that the biggest single reason why prices are high is that the U.S. dollar is extremely weak. For example, the dollar is at a 15 year low relative to the Japanese yen. A weak dollar may be good news for American companies that sell to overseas customers because it makes U.S. goods cheaper. But it's bad news for American customers who buy imported goods, & oil is one of those goods.
Whenever oil prices are low, as they were in the later 90s, the dollar has been strong. While I was visiting Italy in 1997, Italian newspapers were complaining that the strong U.S. dollar was driving gas prices through the roof for Italian drivers. (This was before Italy switched from the lire to the euro.) At the same time, American motorists were paying $0.75/gallon.
Next to supply / demand, the strength of the dollar is the most significant driver of oil prices.
Interesting story that I saw a while back - people who buy hybrids tend to increase their miles driven ~ 10% - Forgive me I saw the story a while back and don't recall where I saw it.
I do have a neighbor who complained about the mileage in her Civic the other day...she drives ~ 40 miles each way to and from work...even with a high MPG car that is going to be a lot of gas!
Yes, but the more important reason, IMHO, is the national security
That is my main reason for wanting to conserve gas if I can. I will still buy the car I want (I said I would choose a used SRX over a new Sonata at the same price), however, saving gas is on my list of things to consider, though not at the top.
Don't like being held hostage to foreign countries if I can avoid it, so I would try to do my bit, if I can, within reason.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I know this has been discussed before, but it never made sense to me. Most dealerships have the doc fee pre-printed on the sales agreement, which is negotiated and signed at the salesperson's desk before you go to the finance office. And the "stuff" offered there was always optional. At least that's how it was done where I used to work and for the cars I've purchased through the years. Perhaps this is different in other parts of the country?
Ooh, the thought of 75 cents per gallon makes my leg tingle (like Chris Mathews about Obama)...could you re-post that just so I could read it again???
BTW, always remember the trade-offs...while not a hard and fast science, a bigger car will often give you better crash protection then a smaller car...so the liklihood of surviving a crash in a Crown Vic may be better than a Smart or a Cube or a Scion...so you save on fuel costs but run a higher risk of death...something they tried to hide back in the 80s and 90s when "they" wanted the whole world in smaller cars...
Also, I believe the disposal of batteries in those hybrids is an environmental hazard in itself...so you save the fuel, feed an environmentalist, and kill the landfill and the water table...
Because my wife & I are both retired, we don't put many miles on our cars. Even at the current price, gasoline costs aren't a big budget item for us.
What really burns me are the current low rates on savings accounts. We've always lived within our means. We've banked & invested money from every paycheck & we've avoided unnecessary debt. Apart from a small balance on our mortgage, we owe nothing.
Thanks to the Fed & the current & previous administrations, we've seen our interest income drop sharply during the past 24 months. We've done everything right, & our reward is the lowest rate on savings since the 1930s.
I doubt if many of you will agree with me, but I'd rather pay $5.00/gallon for gasoline & get a consistent 5% rate on savings (as I could just 4 years ago) than pay $1.50/gallon for gas & get less than 1.5% on my savings. Low interest rates hurt me more than high gas prices.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Strongly agree. In the long run, equity mutual funds are the way to go, & that's where most of our retirement account money is invested. But I also like liquidity. I like knowing that I can simply write a check for major car or house repairs, as I did a couple of weeks ago when we learned that we needed a new septic system.
When it comes to personal finances, I'm a belt & suspenders guy.
Anyway, I'm thinking about investing some of our cash in utility shares. That's a conservative way of getting a 3% dividend stream. And I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks! I'll do as you suggest.
I used to know someone who worked for the street department of a sizable city and I asked him about it. He told me he would sync up the lights on every road as soon as someone developed the magic wand that would allow him to do it. He said that while you might be able to sync up some streets to allow a car to travel a certain distance without getting a red light it is impossible to do all streets in any sizable city.
Just to much traffic with two many streets crisscrossing with varying speed limits.
I propose a federal mandate stating that all municipalities should eliminate 15% of all of their redlights and stop signs.
Driving around the Chicago Metro area I see very few stoplights that could be removed and those usually stay green for the main street until a vehicle on the cross street trips it. While I can see it having some positive effects for some traffic at certain intersections, I can also see it have drastically negative effects for other traffic at those same intersections.
You might not like what I am going to say next but there are one or two places near me that I think the overall flow of traffic would be improved by installing a traffic light.
I do agree that in many places with a stop sign in areas with low traffic volume (say a residential area) yield signs could be used instead.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Haven't you heard? The "experts" all say there is a bond bubble and we're all going to go bust.
BTW, my hi-yield bond fund pays me 8% but is riskier than some can stand.
To keep this about cars--I made enough in the market this year to pay off the remaining loan on my Eclipse.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
That is a big problem, and it is really unfair that the people who worked and saved can't even count on living off their savings......and they didn't even cause these problems.
In Canada, dividend funds are a bit of an alternative. They offer dividend payments that are taxed at a much lower rate. Plus, there is a possibility of growth if you aren't completely adverse to some risk. They can be bought by way of mutual funds....but of course, you need expert advice before going in that direction.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
graphicguy says we can save fuel by not stopping at lights and stop signs... this has really cut down my commuting time!
jimbres is looking for better return than on a passbook account.. say NO to bonds and look at pharmaceutical stocks!
Okay, back to the sales stories... :surprise:
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and in keeping with the theme of this Edmunds category....... A wise car salesman once told me that!
"In demand" vehicles carry a higher premium, cars go out of favor you have to let them go for lower margins.
As for mutual funds, I've given up on those. I grew tired of paying fund managers for yields that took too long to materialize, if they materialized at all. With most major cities in hock up to their necks, I can't see municipal funds as a safe choice. With the federal government in the shape it's in now, any bonds or notes from them would keep me up at night.
I see two positives on the horizon: People have to eat and people need electricity. Utilities and farm co-ops, in my opinion, are the best bet for now; though I wouldn't put all of my "eggs" in one basket. One thing is for sure. You may not be getting much interest in traditional savings accounts, BUT your money is still there and it is relatively safe. From what I keep reading, we are yet to see the worst bust on Wall Street. A home safe with some cash isn't a bad idea. That's where I am at this point. I can still hear my father talk about going to the bank in 1929 and finding the doors locked. He was young enough to rebuild his life. I am not.
Richard
Richard
I live in PA, and yes while the doc fee is pre-printed on the sales agreement, I never had any paperwork presented to me before I went to the F&I office when I bought in ’05 or ‘06. Furthermore, when I bought the Genny in ’09 in Ohio they did not show me anything about the doc fee either until I went in to their F&I office. However, when I bought the Genny I called about their internet ad and asked about the doc fee in Ohio so I wasn’t surprised by it other than it was over a $100 more than in PA but since the price was right that didn’t stop me.
I didn’t say that the doc fee is hidden from buyers. What I said was that a lot of people don’t even know it exists and for the ones that actually read the agreement they are surprised.
I’d like to have a dollar for every buyer that doesn’t read the agreement they are about to sign even has a doc fee. You were in the biz, maybe you’d be able to give us a percentage for these types of buyers. I’m inclined to think that most buyers only look to see if their monthly payment is what the salesman told them it was going to be.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
We're just treading water until someone comes up with a sales story.
OK, I've got one. It's old, though. Jerry Ford was President when this happened.
It's 1975, & my wife & I are buying our 1st new car. We've picked out a Toyota Corona. (For those of you who are under 45, the Corona was the predecessor to the Camry.)
We knew next to nothing about money matters, so it seemed sensible to finance our purchase through the dealer. Our salesman, Jim, was helping us fill out the loan application.
First, he took down my employment & salary information. Then he turned to my wife & asked her what she did & where she worked. When he heard that she was a public school teacher, he stopped writing, put down his pen, picked up the loan application & proceeded to tear it up.
"Don't apply through us", he said. "You'll do much better if you get the loan from your credit union." Then he stood up & pointed across the street, where the credit union's headquarters were then located.
We knew nothing about credit unions & said so. Jim explained how they worked & told us we'd have to deposit $5 to open a savings account to qualify for membership. (As I recall, Jim's wife was also a teacher.) We did as he suggested & were approved for a car loan at 9%, instead of the 12% that we would have paid if we had applied through the dealer.
Jim was one of the nicest human beings I've ever met. I was happy to learn that he went on to become the dealership's GM.
Exactly right, & that's why I'd rather buy stock funds (or, as you suggest, individual bonds).
I'm with you on this, Richard. As I said in an earlier post, because we don't drive that much, we don't spend a whole lot on gas. If the weather's OK, I'll leave the car in the garage & walk to the store. But to echo your point, I do this for the sake of my health, not to "protect the environment" - whatever that means. I figure that if I want to be healthy enough to walk 2 miles without huffing & puffing 10 years from now, I should take every opportunity to walk 2 miles today.
There is no mandated doc fee in Ohio Revised Code. They are allowed to charge up to $250 for costs of a time agreement; I read that to mean writing and implementing a loan agreement. I paid cash. I ignored the doc fee when they brought it up late in the discussion. Another dealer farther away had two Cobalts I was interested in; this store came very close to losing a Saturday morning deal but they agreed to just include their idea of a doc fee and I negotiated on total cost, ignoring it beyond the $50-$100 I had expected.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That sounds a lot like me. When Mrs. jmonroe complains about the pathetic interest rate on our money market account/s I keep telling her that sometimes you make money by not losing it. Our economy has been in that mode for at least 2 years and I’m not about to panic and give a fund manager my money in hopes that they know more than I do. If they did they would have told their clients to get out in April or May of 2008 but if they did that they wouldn’t have made any money themselves. Now they’re trying to convince their old clients to come back because they are smarter now than they were then; yeah, right. If I were a fund manager I’d say the same thing.
I’m glad I bailed on my own hunch in May of 2008 and I’m not sorry one bit that I did it. The funny thing about that is the very next day the market went up over 200 points. I was waiting for a day like that but it kept going down a little then up a little and it kept doing this for weeks. Finally, when it hit my sore spot I got out, just one day too soon. :mad:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
If anyone remembers, when I bought the Genny, I bumped them up $600 on my trade because I felt it was worth that much more. I also had the Ohio Doc fee that was higher than the PA doc fee in mind when I got my price for my trade. :shades:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I'm very surprised you weren't asked to sign a completed sales or purchase agreement before you went to F&I. Surely you signed something with the car and pricing details on it.
Here is how we did it, and all of our buyers knew exactly what the Doc Fee was. The sales/purchase agreement was prepared with the customer at the salesperson's desk. It showed the information on the new car, the trade, the price, the license and registration charges, sales tax and documentation fee. Then it showed the total. This is what the customer agrees to and signs before going to the finance office.
The last thing the F&I person wanted was to get a customer in his office who didn't understand or wanted to question the pricing, so this was covered in detail by the salesperson.
If it was a financed car, the payments were only discussed on an "if qualified" basis, and not shown on the sales agreement. Mainly because the salesperson could not be sure what rate the buyer would qualify for. They would be finalized in the F&I office and on the loan documents.
Hopefully this answers your question.
Just out of curiosity, do you have special tax benefits if you invest in dividend paying stocks? In Canada profits from these are taxed at a much better rate. These are considered to be pretty safe, and they do produce good interest rates (3 to 5% is fairly common) and you can get some upside movement if the stock goes up. Not sure if dividend paying stocks work that way in the US......not for amateurs though, consult an expert (or Snake).
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The only piece of paper I signed was for the price of the cars in ’05 and ’06 (I had no trades when I bought at those times). When I bought the Genny I signed a piece of paper for the cost of the car I was buying and the price I was getting for my trade. For all 3 sales NOTHING else was written down.
Here is how we did it, and all of our buyers knew exactly what the Doc Fee was.
The sales/purchase agreement was prepared with the customer at the salesperson's desk.
That’s a good way to do it. I wonder how many of the regulars here have done it that way.
Hopefully this answers your question.
Yes it did. Thanks for the reply.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl