On the diagonal stripes, red is toward the bottom (white background) on the left but toward the top on the right (assuming the flagpole is to the left!). It's easily missed unless you know what to look for.
And to get back to topic, any sales stories from the UK?
As I've mentioned before, the easiest way for me to buy a car (and certainly not the only way), is to have all the numbers I want researched and pre-set before I walk in. This comes from research here, in the newspaper ads, looking at dealer stock levels, and having an understanding of what demand for the model is, in my area.
I know what the taxes should be (on the amount I'm offering). I know what a license transfer costs in my area, too.
If I'm financing, I also know my 3 credit scores and have my bank/credit union's borrow rate already locked in. Dealership is invited to beat it.
This is all BEFORE I walk into the dealership.
Whenever I hear "What do you want your payment to be?", I jokingly say "A dollar/month, for 12 months". That usually thwarts the talk of "payments" in short order.
If I'm trading, I usually find it helpful to bounce some numbers around here at Edmunds, as well as shopping my trade vehicle to 2-3 different dealerships. Sometimes they're pretty close to each other on trade values, sometimes there are several hundred (maybe over a $1,000) in variation. It also helps to see what the model is selling for on the used lots, and from newspaper ads by private sellers. You can tell if someone is lowballing a trade with more than one "bid".
This sounds like a lot of work, but in reality, shouldn't take more than a couple of hours perusing the newspaper, looking on-line, eye-balling dealer's lot, before you walk into the dealer's front door.
Knowing what your offer is going to be, knowing what your trade is worth, knowing what the taxes on the transaction are, and what general licensing fees will be, the visit to the dealership should be easy. Have confidence that your numbers are correct, and that you're not being ridiculous on your offer, but are getting a good deal, everything should go smoothly.
As others have pointed out, if it's too good to be true, then it probably is. Be willing to move on to another dealer if you can't get what you want in pretty short order at any dealership. Be courteous, polite, but firm...you can buy a car with no hesitation, and know you did well.
Don't forget about the DOC fees. If they throw a big number in there, your bottom line is harder to reach. $99-$200 may not be a deal killer, but it they throw in DOC of say $495 or more, then you might want to walk intead of starting negotiations again in the middle :-) Might be able to inquire about that somehow before hand so you can work that into your calculations.
That's what I really liked about the last GM we bought in 2004. Found my wife qualified for GSM. Decent price plus they backed out the $195 or so DOC fee.
I already know where you are headed. But even if they didn't want it on their lot (350Z with 15k miles), $2k below auction value is ridiculous. Most cars I've traded went to auction, but they still gave me auction value. The Lincoln dealer I traded it to sent it to auction, gave me auction value, and sold their CPO LS to me for $2200 over auction value. And this is a very similar margin on the Mazda for Volvo trade I made previous to that (and the mazda went to auction). So I'm not unfamiliar with the process.
Oh, by the way, I traded the Lincoln on the Accord, and the Honda dealer kept it on their lot.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Don't forget about the DOC fees. If they throw a big number in there, your bottom line is harder to reach.
That's easy to deal with. You start negotiations by making it clear that you're establishing an 'out the door' price, either before or after tt&t. Personally I think it's easier to work with the 'before' price as the dealer has no control over taxes, and the calculations are easier as the pricing doesn't have to worked backwards.
wl.....that's what makes those GMS deals so nice. They're well under invoice. The customer gets all incentives. And, GM caps the fees (used to disallow any DOC feels....now, they only allow a nominal amount).
You start negotiations by making it clear that you're establishing an 'out the door' price, either before or after tt&t.
That's the only way I will negotiate. I know the sales tax rate and how it is calculated, so I don't have to worry about being surprised with a raft of tacked-on fees.
are the people "Oh we're looking to buy around summer time" when theres still snow on the ground. "Great come back in the summer" hand a card and leave
If you don't like them, find a different job. To paraphrase your own statement, "no one forced you to become a car salesman".
At the Wynn Hotel in Las Vegas, there is a Maserati/Ferrari dealership. I didn't go in and browse, because unless you own one of those two makes of cars, adults have to buy a $10 gift store gift card to browse, which given the nature of the product and the volume of passers-by, makes perfect sense.
When Marina and I went to Vegas in March, we naturally stopped at the Wynn to check out the dealer. She ended up buying Ferrari Puma runners in the store and a pc mousepad for me, and they were still asking us to pay admission to look. :confuse: :mad:
I was there over Thanksgiving and the sign read fairly clearly (to me anyway), $10 admission, can be used for merchandise in the gift shop. Maybe they've changed the rules since then, or just made them more clear.
Still, must be interesting to work with a place that has so much potential foot-traffic, and in a casino where $200 table minimums aren't enough to make it into the "High Limit" room.
Or maybe we made the mistake of going in to the store first, and then trying to get into the dealership. anyhow no big deal. Out across thge street there was a line of Ferraris parked for rent that i took a picture beside.
And I usually see a Ferrari around town at least once a week here.
I learned along time ago, there ain't no such thing as Santa Claus (don't tell my kids). The only way your were getting a $200.00 a month (no money down) payment on a $30,000.00 truck would be if you took out a 15 year home equity loan to pay for it (I wouldn't advise that).
My biggest concern (truly) concerning the hidden "Smart Buy" I ran into, is all the poor schmucks who blindly signed the papers while in their new car rapture, to be suddenly struck three years later with a monster balloon payment they never expected. That is more than just dishonest behavior by a car dealer...
The only way your were getting a $200.00 a month (no money down) payment on a $30,000.00 truck would be if you took out a 15 year home equity loan to pay for it (I wouldn't advise that).
Not even then as at an 8% interest rate the $200 only covers the interest.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Ok, guys and gals, as I've been doing this for 2 years and many of us hillbilly's out here in the sticks tend to leave our purchase agreements in the glove box of our truck. During clean-up I find out what other places charge for Doc Fees. We charge a very minimal amount I think and way behind the times (our title clerk needs a raise) of $35. We will not negociate our fees away. I have never seen the owner give in on that $35 yet. But what you folks think is a fair deal to cover your costs and make some profit for YOUR area?
Hey, I was wondering. I recently purchased a new 06 Land Rover from a local dealership. He did not have the exact vehicle I wanted and had to look around, finally finding the one I wanted at a dealership some 50 miles away. He retrieved the car from that dealer and sold it to me.
So, I figure since nobody is in the business of giving cars away (even to other dealers), I was wondering how much of a "transer fee" my dealership would have had to pay the other dealer? Anybody know? Is there an "average?"
I don't know about Land Rovers, british rover is probably in a position to answer that one, but for us if we need a Honda from another dealer, then we do a trade (give a car back), but pay for towing charges for both vehicles which could be as high as $300.
Whenever I hear "What do you want your payment to be?", I jokingly say "A dollar/month, for 12 months". That usually thwarts the talk of "payments" in short order
Salesmen do insist on asking this and other annoying questions to lead into the negotiating process. It’s as old as the ages and will continue for ever, I’m convinced.
I had a similar questioned asked of me when I went to buy my first new car, ’66 Bonneville, on introduction day in October 1965. The first thing out of the salesman’s mouth was, “what do you want to pay for this car”? I was just a mere lad in my early 20’s and he sort of caught me off guard so I said, “what kind of a question is that?” and he repeated the question, so I said, “I want to trade you even up for my ’62 Chevy Biscayne, 4 dr. 6 cyl.". He said, “that’s ridiculous” to which I said, “you asked me and that’s what I want”. We then quickly got into a serious negotiating process but to no avail. I just didn’t like his final price, so I walked.
BTW, I did buy one that weekend but from another dealership and a very informative salesman.
Some things never change.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
My biggest concern (truly) concerning the hidden "Smart Buy" I ran into, is all the poor schmucks who blindly signed the papers while in their new car rapture, to be suddenly struck three years later with a monster balloon payment they never expected. That is more than just dishonest behavior by a car dealer...
I believe it is criminal
I'm tempted to say - tough luck. Before they (people with itch to buy things they can't afford) signed papers they could have: 1. Beeen more attentive during math lessons - one would quickly find out how much $30000/36(48,60) is. 2. Read contract, as just you did 3. Made a little research to find out what it should cost.
I don't think dealers should be held responsible for people living in a fantasy land and actually expecting that $30K on the sticker means $200/month, or whatever else. Old Roman rule was there is no harm to the willing. Apparently it is gone by now.
I don't think it's criminal - it may be ethically questionable and good dealer would disclose the full terms verbally. It's not a good business, I think, as one score may ruin your reputation. But unless they forged signatures, switched paperwork, or else, it's not really criminal.
That would depend on the interest rate. At zero percent it would be paid off in 12.5 years, at 8% or higher it will never be paid off. And thats presuming no TTL or Doc fees.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
>1. Beeen more attentive during math lessons - one would quickly find out how much $30000/36(48,60) is
That's a great, perceptive point. There was something they could have learned in school such as good attendance, following directions, learning to interpret input they're given whether writtn or oral, and not doing something when you don't properly prepare and don't really understand what they're doing!
Maybe the old saying (learned in school) if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't true!
Just keep in mind that the dealer may not be totally disclosing everything. Case in point when they tried to pull that crap on me they never mentioned how much they were giving me for my trade in. Without that piece of information I really couldn't figure that stuff out. If they were giving me what I figured was a good price for a trade in the figures worked out fine, but they were going to give me practically nothing for my trade in. :sick:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
j....yeah, that's the first forray into negotiations. Maybe I've just been lucky in recent years, but I haven't run into that "What do you want your payment to be?" line for a while.
Usually, I steer the conversation more towards, "do you have what I want?". Then, when they write it up at MSRP....ask for my signature, I kind of chuckle. Then it's some light hearted banter along the lines of "you know better than that, and I know better than that". Then it's the whole "If I can get this vehicle for you at $xx,xxx, would you buy today?". This is when it starts to get serious.
I tell them my buy price. The salesperson balks...tries to "bump" my offer, but I ask them to take the offer to the desk. I usually follow them to the desk. I also get a question from the SM at the desk, "are you ready to make this deal, right now?" Me----"Yep".
Done deal.
Soemtimes the SM will try a bump, too. But, I'm confident in my number as a skinny deal, but "doable".
Yeah, IIRC it was pretty much a case of the car having a sticker price of $13K and me figuring $12K for the car and $1,500 for my trade in. With TTL no down payment at 8% I should have been at $233/month. They came up with around $15-20/month less and I sad wow, either I am getting more for my trade in or paying less for the car or getting a much better interest rate or a combination of those three.
It was when I looked at the paperwork I was being charges full MSRP, a higher interest rate, a several thousand dollar balloon payment at the end of the loan and was only getting $50 for my trade in.
And as I said not only did they lose my business but at least 10 or so other sales over that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And I think that's the whole problem. They always try to pull something.
As a consumer it's insulting. I mean - I'm not some recent immigrant with barely functional language skills or some 90 IQ. Forrest Gump type.
And yet they always try to pull something. And I always end up walking out. Not because the deal is necessarily bad, but I dislike being screwed with.
X amount divided by y months at z interest is a simple equation that anyone who completed basic college math could do. Shoot, there are programs online(cell phone with web?) and pocket calculators if you CAN'T do it on paper.
The latest one was the local Ford dealer flat out refusing to give me the factory to dealer incentive. Said "It's optional(so I'm keeping it)"(Pasadena, CA, btw). I mean - what kind of crummy attitude is that?
Or the other one I got - which was that incentives and rebates on 2007(new stock) models only apply at the time of delivery and not when you sign paperwork. And that I'd also have to pay full MSRP if I ordered one built for me(mind you, this was a Focus - their bottom-end car). I looked at him like he had rocks in his head, because how dumb does he think we are as consumers?
90%+ of U.S. households have internet access(home/work/phone/etc). We all know the same data and see the prices at a dozen places before we come in and yet the sleaze factor is still 1980s as if we're guessing out of thin air and don't have reams of data at our fingertips.
And it also nerfs salesperople and staff out of commissions. What would you rather have as a salesperson - $300 in your pocket from a sale or waste an hour because your manager blew the deal by acting like an [non-permissible content removed] again?
"And I always end up walking out. Not because the deal is necessarily bad, but I dislike being screwed with."
I suggest you get over it. Life is easier if we set our sights lower.
As long as I get the car I want for the price I am willing to pay, I don't care how the dealer behaves, as long as he doesn't actually hurt anyone. I mean, I would not buy a car from a dealer who is a child molester or anything like that.
The latest one was the local Ford dealer flat out refusing to give me the factory to dealer incentive. Said "It's optional(so I'm keeping it)"(Pasadena, CA, btw). I mean - what kind of crummy attitude is that?
I'm not a dealer but that did make me smile. Isn't it rather like the dealer saying, "I found out on the internet that you just got an extra $50 a month pay raise, so I insist you add it on to your monthly payments."
Factory to dealer incentives are just that, incentives for the dealer to do what he wants with. You have no rights to them.
Salesmen do insist on asking this and other annoying questions to lead into the negotiating process.
You may think these are annoying questions. However, imagine how annoying it is when someone comes in to look at a $50,000 tahoe and they see a payment of $700/mo. When asked "what payment were you thinking?" and they say $250. Talk about annoying.
We find we can save a lot of time by asking the payment question up front. If they say $250 - Let me show you this beautiful Aveo we just got in. We can definitely get you close to that $250 payment.
From my experience, most people do not know how much a new car payment will be. They assume that because their brother, or whoever has $xxx payment then they can do that too.
These annoying questions are called "qualifying": asking what kind of car they are looking for, price range, and what they use it for.
These questions help the customers and us in deciding what cars to look at. However for most people here who are internet saavy, and who know exactly what the payments and price will be, or who know exactly what car they want, these might seem as annoying.
But we ask them anyways because we're not mind readers, and we have to start somewhere in the sales process.
Sometimes there are customers with unrealistic expectations who seem like they don't even know math, and do expect $200/month on a used $20k vehicle with a interest rate of 8%, and $0 down.
On a side note I love the customers that come on the lot and ask for help, you qualify them, and it seems like they're not even sure what car they want. So when I ask the budget price question "What price range are you looking to be within, or what is your budget" they respond "It doesn't matter, I just want a good deal, which one is a good deal?"
Well that doesn't help me because there's no point in looking at 40 cars that are not even in their price range. EVERYONE must know approximately what price range of vehicle they want.
So when someone looking at used cars tells me that price doesn't matter, i always tell them "Great! I have a $200k Bentley in the back that's a really good deal!"
Then all of a sudden it helps them remember what their budget is.
To be asked about monthly payments once is perfectly reasonable (IMHO), but it's when the salesman stays on that aspect to the point of refusing to give a price on the vehicle itself and will only quote monthly figures, that's when it gets really annoying!
but it's when the salesman stays on that aspect to the point of refusing to give a price on the vehicle itself and will only quote monthly figures, that's when it gets really annoying!
I like the guys that ask questions yet are unable to relate the answers to reality. While I was out car shopping last week I stopped at a Ford dealer, primarily because my son wanted to see the Grabber Orange Mustang GT they had on the showroom floor. As we were leaving, I had a sales guy ask if he could help me. I told him the truth: that I liked the GT but I needed something a bit more practical. He asked what I was looking at, and I told him that I was currently deciding between an M5, a 540i Sport and a Charger SRT-8. "So I guess you're looking for a little performance." was his response. Hmmm... Ya think? His next comment floored me: "Well then, let's go into the showroom, sit down and see if we can find a car that meets your needs." I almost asked, " Terrific! How many 400HP V8 RWD 160 mph sedans do you have on the lot today?" Instead, I simply thanked him and left.
When you mentioned "practical" and "M5, a 540i Sport and a Charger SRT-8." He probably wanted to test his selling skills on ya
Well, I actually said "more practical"- as in four doors and a back seat designed for adults. Beyond that, my choices aren't all that practical; I just want something that will really liven up the daily commute :P
I don't know for sure that this is what he was doing but I can speculate some...
With the price range of all those vehicles he probably assumed you would be interested in something used...
If he was part of a much larger autogroup and they allow cross selling of used cars, most autogroups allow that and some allow cross selling of new cars too, then maybe he thought there was a used car somewhere in the autogroup that might fit your needs.
Just off the top of my head I can think of several performance oriented Sports sedans that are floating around our autogroup as used vehicles that are not listed on the web.
These were either just taken in trade and have not gone through recon yet or are going directly to wholesale and have not made it the auction yet.
2006 CLS500 Mercedes 2005 E500 Sport 2004 745il 2001 M5
Since we have a chrysler and dodge store we also have both Charger SRT-8s and 200c SRT-8s.
For all you know he was going to call up his buddy down at their chrysler/dodge store and send you down as a refferal...
If your commute is anything like mine a M5 or a 540i Sport or a Charger SRT-8 won't liven it up one bit. All that power is useless.
For you, maybe. My commute is @35 miles. With only five traffic signals. I sit in stop and go traffic for maybe five minutes/day tops. In addition, I often have to cover conflict cases all over the state. In any event, I drove the same commute with a modified(315 hp at the crank) M6 for several years- and I always found some use for "all that power".
For all you know he was going to call up his buddy down at their chrysler/dodge store and send you down as a refferal...
I really don't think so. The other brands in that dealer group are Hyundai, Isuzu, Lincoln-Mercury, and Mazda. I was almost certain that the guy was going to stick me in a cubicle and throw everything at the wall to see if anything would stick. OTOH, I stopped at a Porsche dealer later that week and the sales guy told me up front that he didn't have anything I would want in stock. However, he did take my name, e-mail, and a list of the vehicles I'm considering- and told me that he'd contact me if anything turned up. If the Ford guy had taken a similar approach I would have listened.
It's not jsut the salespeople. Between the sales staff, the finance department, or the management, they just can't seem to deal with me without somewhere along the line trying to pull a fast one on me.
Like the other day - everything looked fine and then they come back trying to increase the price so that my downpayment won't apply much to it, then they are quoting a $450 doc fee - but I managed to work those both out. But then they try to pull a pro-rated loan on me (interest is calculated out for the full term and then applied to the initial price, then divided into payments) versus a normal simple interest loan. The difference of course is if you pay it off faster - the normal loan you'd get from any reputable bank or lender lowers your monthly payment instead of just lowering the number of payments left. (can be several thousand dollars difference - it's a really nasty tactic)
The sleaze factor here in Los Angeles is apalling.
And it's not like they aren't making 3-4K on the car already between the interest and the price over their cost - but they want more. The then finance department wants more. Then they want more to "prep it" and then they...
And you wonder why people flock to places like PriceClub/Sams Club or Carmax. My job isn't to dole out money and subsidize them like welfare recipients.
So I gave up today and bought a friend's old 4-Runner for cash.
Comments
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
On the diagonal stripes, red is toward the bottom (white background) on the left but toward the top on the right (assuming the flagpole is to the left!). It's easily missed unless you know what to look for.
And to get back to topic, any sales stories from the UK?
tidester, host
I know what the taxes should be (on the amount I'm offering). I know what a license transfer costs in my area, too.
If I'm financing, I also know my 3 credit scores and have my bank/credit union's borrow rate already locked in. Dealership is invited to beat it.
This is all BEFORE I walk into the dealership.
Whenever I hear "What do you want your payment to be?", I jokingly say "A dollar/month, for 12 months". That usually thwarts the talk of "payments" in short order.
If I'm trading, I usually find it helpful to bounce some numbers around here at Edmunds, as well as shopping my trade vehicle to 2-3 different dealerships. Sometimes they're pretty close to each other on trade values, sometimes there are several hundred (maybe over a $1,000) in variation. It also helps to see what the model is selling for on the used lots, and from newspaper ads by private sellers. You can tell if someone is lowballing a trade with more than one "bid".
This sounds like a lot of work, but in reality, shouldn't take more than a couple of hours perusing the newspaper, looking on-line, eye-balling dealer's lot, before you walk into the dealer's front door.
Knowing what your offer is going to be, knowing what your trade is worth, knowing what the taxes on the transaction are, and what general licensing fees will be, the visit to the dealership should be easy. Have confidence that your numbers are correct, and that you're not being ridiculous on your offer, but are getting a good deal, everything should go smoothly.
As others have pointed out, if it's too good to be true, then it probably is. Be willing to move on to another dealer if you can't get what you want in pretty short order at any dealership. Be courteous, polite, but firm...you can buy a car with no hesitation, and know you did well.
That's what I really liked about the last GM we bought in 2004. Found my wife qualified for GSM. Decent price plus they backed out the $195 or so DOC fee.
Oh, by the way, I traded the Lincoln on the Accord, and the Honda dealer kept it on their lot.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That's easy to deal with. You start negotiations by making it clear that you're establishing an 'out the door' price, either before or after tt&t. Personally I think it's easier to work with the 'before' price as the dealer has no control over taxes, and the calculations are easier as the pricing doesn't have to worked backwards.
That's the only way I will negotiate. I know the sales tax rate and how it is calculated, so I don't have to worry about being surprised with a raft of tacked-on fees.
If you don't like them, find a different job.
To paraphrase your own statement, "no one forced you to become a car salesman".
http://www.penskewynn.com/Default.aspx for those interested...
I'd love to hear stories from those sales folks.
So we didn't end up going in.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Still, must be interesting to work with a place that has so much potential foot-traffic, and in a casino where $200 table minimums aren't enough to make it into the "High Limit" room.
And I usually see a Ferrari around town at least once a week here.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I learned along time ago, there ain't no such thing as Santa Claus (don't tell my kids). The only way your were getting a $200.00 a month (no money down) payment on a $30,000.00 truck would be if you took out a 15 year home equity loan to pay for it (I wouldn't advise that).
My biggest concern (truly) concerning the hidden "Smart Buy" I ran into, is all the poor schmucks who blindly signed the papers while in their new car rapture, to be suddenly struck three years later with a monster balloon payment they never expected. That is more than just dishonest behavior by a car dealer...
I believe it is criminal... :mad:
Keith
Not even then as at an 8% interest rate the $200 only covers the interest.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
So, I figure since nobody is in the business of giving cars away (even to other dealers), I was wondering how much of a "transer fee" my dealership would have had to pay the other dealer? Anybody know? Is there an "average?"
Keith :surprise:
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
That is because we flat bed all of our cars in and they are heavy cars.
Heavy in terms of value equals lots of insurance.
Heavy in terms of mass so you can't just use any basic trailer.
In our area of Northern Virginia, a few miles from our nation's capitol, I think a Doc fee of zero is reasonable.
When we make an offer, I never include a Doc fee.
Salesmen do insist on asking this and other annoying questions to lead into the negotiating process. It’s as old as the ages and will continue for ever, I’m convinced.
I had a similar questioned asked of me when I went to buy my first new car, ’66 Bonneville, on introduction day in October 1965. The first thing out of the salesman’s mouth was, “what do you want to pay for this car”? I was just a mere lad in my early 20’s and he sort of caught me off guard so I said, “what kind of a question is that?” and he repeated the question, so I said, “I want to trade you even up for my ’62 Chevy Biscayne, 4 dr. 6 cyl.". He said, “that’s ridiculous” to which I said, “you asked me and that’s what I want”. We then quickly got into a serious negotiating process but to no avail. I just didn’t like his final price, so I walked.
BTW, I did buy one that weekend but from another dealership and a very informative salesman.
Some things never change.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I believe it is criminal
I'm tempted to say - tough luck. Before they (people with itch to buy things they can't afford) signed papers they could have:
1. Beeen more attentive during math lessons - one would quickly find out how much $30000/36(48,60) is.
2. Read contract, as just you did
3. Made a little research to find out what it should cost.
I don't think dealers should be held responsible for people living in a fantasy land and actually expecting that $30K on the sticker means $200/month, or whatever else. Old Roman rule was there is no harm to the willing. Apparently it is gone by now.
I don't think it's criminal - it may be ethically questionable and good dealer would disclose the full terms verbally. It's not a good business, I think, as one score may ruin your reputation. But unless they forged signatures, switched paperwork, or else, it's not really criminal.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's a great, perceptive point. There was something they could have learned in school such as good attendance, following directions, learning to interpret input they're given whether writtn or oral, and not doing something when you don't properly prepare and don't really understand what they're doing!
Maybe the old saying (learned in school) if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't true!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Usually, I steer the conversation more towards, "do you have what I want?". Then, when they write it up at MSRP....ask for my signature, I kind of chuckle. Then it's some light hearted banter along the lines of "you know better than that, and I know better than that". Then it's the whole "If I can get this vehicle for you at $xx,xxx, would you buy today?". This is when it starts to get serious.
I tell them my buy price. The salesperson balks...tries to "bump" my offer, but I ask them to take the offer to the desk. I usually follow them to the desk. I also get a question from the SM at the desk, "are you ready to make this deal, right now?" Me----"Yep".
Done deal.
Soemtimes the SM will try a bump, too. But, I'm confident in my number as a skinny deal, but "doable".
It was when I looked at the paperwork I was being charges full MSRP, a higher interest rate, a several thousand dollar balloon payment at the end of the loan and was only getting $50 for my trade in.
And as I said not only did they lose my business but at least 10 or so other sales over that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think next time I hear that question I will respond with "I want my payments to be paid by you." :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As a consumer it's insulting. I mean - I'm not some recent immigrant with barely functional language skills or some 90 IQ. Forrest Gump type.
And yet they always try to pull something. And I always end up walking out. Not because the deal is necessarily bad, but I dislike being screwed with.
X amount divided by y months at z interest is a simple equation that anyone who completed basic college math could do. Shoot, there are programs online(cell phone with web?) and pocket calculators if you CAN'T do it on paper.
The latest one was the local Ford dealer flat out refusing to give me the factory to dealer incentive. Said "It's optional(so I'm keeping it)"(Pasadena, CA, btw). I mean - what kind of crummy attitude is that?
Or the other one I got - which was that incentives and rebates on 2007(new stock) models only apply at the time of delivery and not when you sign paperwork. And that I'd also have to pay full MSRP if I ordered one built for me(mind you, this was a Focus - their bottom-end car). I looked at him like he had rocks in his head, because how dumb does he think we are as consumers?
90%+ of U.S. households have internet access(home/work/phone/etc). We all know the same data and see the prices at a dozen places before we come in and yet the sleaze factor is still 1980s as if we're guessing out of thin air and don't have reams of data at our fingertips.
And it also nerfs salesperople and staff out of commissions. What would you rather have as a salesperson - $300 in your pocket from a sale or waste an hour because your manager blew the deal by acting like an [non-permissible content removed] again?
I suggest you get over it. Life is easier if we set our sights lower.
As long as I get the car I want for the price I am willing to pay, I don't care how the dealer behaves, as long as he doesn't actually hurt anyone. I mean, I would not buy a car from a dealer who is a child molester or anything like that.
I'm not a dealer but that did make me smile. Isn't it rather like the dealer saying, "I found out on the internet that you just got an extra $50 a month pay raise, so I insist you add it on to your monthly payments."
Factory to dealer incentives are just that, incentives for the dealer to do what he wants with. You have no rights to them.
You may think these are annoying questions. However, imagine how annoying it is when someone comes in to look at a $50,000 tahoe and they see a payment of $700/mo. When asked "what payment were you thinking?" and they say $250. Talk about annoying.
We find we can save a lot of time by asking the payment question up front. If they say $250 - Let me show you this beautiful Aveo we just got in. We can definitely get you close to that $250 payment.
From my experience, most people do not know how much a new car payment will be. They assume that because their brother, or whoever has $xxx payment then they can do that too.
These questions help the customers and us in deciding what cars to look at. However for most people here who are internet saavy, and who know exactly what the payments and price will be, or who know exactly what car they want, these might seem as annoying.
But we ask them anyways because we're not mind readers, and we have to start somewhere in the sales process.
Sometimes there are customers with unrealistic expectations who seem like they don't even know math, and do expect $200/month on a used $20k vehicle with a interest rate of 8%, and $0 down.
On a side note I love the customers
Well that doesn't help me because there's no point in looking at 40 cars that are not even in their price range. EVERYONE must know approximately what price range of vehicle they want.
So when someone looking at used cars tells me that price doesn't matter, i always tell them "Great! I have a $200k Bentley in the back that's a really good deal!"
Then all of a sudden it helps them remember what their budget is.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
now you are the buyer and they are the seller? :confuse:
I like the guys that ask questions yet are unable to relate the answers to reality. While I was out car shopping last week I stopped at a Ford dealer, primarily because my son wanted to see the Grabber Orange Mustang GT they had on the showroom floor. As we were leaving, I had a sales guy ask if he could help me. I told him the truth: that I liked the GT but I needed something a bit more practical. He asked what I was looking at, and I told him that I was currently deciding between an M5, a 540i Sport and a Charger SRT-8. "So I guess you're looking for a little performance." was his response. Hmmm... Ya think? His next comment floored me: "Well then, let's go into the showroom, sit down and see if we can find a car that meets your needs." I almost asked, " Terrific! How many 400HP V8 RWD 160 mph sedans do you have on the lot today?" Instead, I simply thanked him and left.
Precisely. I really didn't want to waste my time(or his), but it would have been interesting to find out what Ford he thought would fit my needs...
Well, I actually said "more practical"- as in four doors and a back seat designed for adults. Beyond that, my choices aren't all that practical; I just want something that will really liven up the daily commute :P
If your commute is anything like mine a M5 or a 540i Sport or a Charger SRT-8 won't liven it up one bit. All that power is useless.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
With the price range of all those vehicles he probably assumed you would be interested in something used...
If he was part of a much larger autogroup and they allow cross selling of used cars, most autogroups allow that and some allow cross selling of new cars too, then maybe he thought there was a used car somewhere in the autogroup that might fit your needs.
Just off the top of my head I can think of several performance oriented Sports sedans that are floating around our autogroup as used vehicles that are not listed on the web.
These were either just taken in trade and have not gone through recon yet or are going directly to wholesale and have not made it the auction yet.
2006 CLS500 Mercedes
2005 E500 Sport
2004 745il
2001 M5
Since we have a chrysler and dodge store we also have both Charger SRT-8s and 200c SRT-8s.
For all you know he was going to call up his buddy down at their chrysler/dodge store and send you down as a refferal...
For you, maybe. My commute is @35 miles. With only five traffic signals. I sit in stop and go traffic for maybe five minutes/day tops. In addition, I often have to cover conflict cases all over the state. In any event, I drove the same commute with a modified(315 hp at the crank) M6 for several years- and I always found some use for "all that power".
I really don't think so. The other brands in that dealer group are Hyundai, Isuzu, Lincoln-Mercury, and Mazda. I was almost certain that the guy was going to stick me in a cubicle and throw everything at the wall to see if anything would stick.
OTOH, I stopped at a Porsche dealer later that week and the sales guy told me up front that he didn't have anything I would want in stock. However, he did take my name, e-mail, and a list of the vehicles I'm considering- and told me that he'd contact me if anything turned up. If the Ford guy had taken a similar approach I would have listened.
We do? Don't you think that's pretty insulting?
Like the other day - everything looked fine and then they come back trying to increase the price so that my downpayment won't apply much to it, then they are quoting a $450 doc fee - but I managed to work those both out. But then they try to pull a pro-rated loan on me (interest is calculated out for the full term and then applied to the initial price, then divided into payments) versus a normal simple interest loan. The difference of course is if you pay it off faster - the normal loan you'd get from any reputable bank or lender lowers your monthly payment instead of just lowering the number of payments left.
(can be several thousand dollars difference - it's a really nasty tactic)
The sleaze factor here in Los Angeles is apalling.
And it's not like they aren't making 3-4K on the car already between the interest and the price over their cost - but they want more. The then finance department wants more. Then they want more to "prep it" and then they...
And you wonder why people flock to places like PriceClub/Sams Club or Carmax. My job isn't to dole out money and subsidize them like welfare recipients.
So I gave up today and bought a friend's old 4-Runner for cash.