No, you don't. Unfortunately, some cannot resist making unfounded generalizations based on their own personal perceptions. I think we should all avoid sweeping generalizations.
Look, I tried to get a car. 620 Credit score - not great, but not bad, either. 9 WEEKS. Every single dealership within 20 miles of me - and I'm not kidding - I checked about every last one - tried to not just make a profit but absolutely ream me when it came to the fine print. I'm not paying 26% interest. I'm not paying $5000 more than you bought that rental at auction for - not when it's a base model GM(ie - not something special anyways). I'm not going to let you stick me with a year of extra payments. I'm not going to buy something that you can spot the repaint and new body panels from ten feet away.
Now, most of it wasn't the salespeople, but I never ever saw a salesperson step up for me, either and not just go along with management or finance either. They KNOW it's apalling terms or goign to ream me and they ignore it and smile like nothing's happening.
So lost another sale. $3000 cash down and - I just got too frustrated because nobody would deal with my in a straightforward manner. Evidently I'm not alone, either. Sales nationwide are horrible from what I hear.
British Rover, I decided to check out the new or left over Jaguar sedans (XJ). Do you know that my local dealer (I'm in Tennessee for xmas) only had one XJ and it was on the showroom floor. They had the other small Jag sedans but no XJ's?????
This dealership also sells Land Rovers where I bought my LR3 almost a year ago. They had 2006 and 2007 Land Rovers but no Jaguar XJ's!!! The XK's are nice!
This dealer is moving in about two weeks to a new building facility. Surely they didn't move the new XJ's only leaving one? I'll call them and check it out as they are closed on Sunday.
If my local dealer is out... either these are a hot commodity or they are making killer deals.
Do you know when the XJ will change? 2008 or 2009??
Mark156
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
Hmhhh maybe they did move the XJs early or that dealership is doing very well.
Our regional service rep is also a Jag service rep and none of the jag dealerships in our area are doing very well. In fact the newest Land Rover Dealer in New England built a Very LARGE Land Rover showroom with a tiny Jaguar Annex specificly because they were worried that the market might not support a jag dealership.
If Jag fails in that area they are still ok with the large Land Rover dealer.
Jags pretty slow with redesigns just like Land Rover, the S-type is finaly being redesigned next year after nearly a decade of the same design, so I would expect the XJ to last untill 2010 or later.
Why not get your financing lined up and buy from a private owner? If you're looking for something late model, you can avoid all that dealer BS and do business with someone who's just trying to avoid (getting reamed) trading their ride in on a new one.
Why not get your financing lined up and buy from a private owner? If you're looking for something late model, you can avoid all that dealer BS and do business with someone who's just trying to avoid (getting reamed) trading their ride in on a new one.
I was also trying that - but ran into a shortage of vehicles that I liked(too new for most individuals to sell). PArt of it was bad luck I guess, but most of it was Los Angeles. Worst place in the planet to buy or sell a car.
So I ended up doing that - bought a friend's old 4Runner for cash. Yes, it's old, but it's also cheap and works great - has a lot of upgraded off-road parts on it.
Just when I though I figured this car business out, I came across this problem.
I am shopping for 06 Toyota Siena. 07 are about to hit the showrooms so dealers are trying to move 06s. I live in Washington DC area; the land of fitzmall and Carmax, who put their inventory online with low internet prices. As the result, about 75% of Toyota dealers out here also list their inventories online with invoices and/or internet prices. While browsing the inventories I came across one dealer who advertises all of their Siannas at $2100 under invoice, four who advertise at $1000 under invoice.
I naturally assume there is a major manufactures incentives on this van. I called the United Buying Service (UBS) to get a certificate for one of their dealers. UBS is a local service that pre-negotiates their prices with dealers, and the dealers are supposed to pass all the incentives on to the customer. I went to the UBS dealer and demanded to tell me what the incentives are. Both the SP and SM look at me like I have two heads, and show me some piece of paper form Toyota showing that there are no incentives on Siannas. To be perfectly honest with you, both of them seem very sincere and I believe them.
My question to you is can other dealers be willing to lose so much money on these vans? It’s not one or two at this price, the whole inventory is at $2100 or $1000 under the invoice. They could not possibly make all this money up on volume bonuses, or by getting additional allocations on hot selling cars.
venture....you've got it right. Trade-in has no bearing on the commission on a new car that a salesperson sells, unless they turn right around and sell that trade.
That said, if the trade is a stumbling block in selling that new iron, then it behooves the salesperson to get the trade "stumbling block" removed so they can move the new car.
In general, a trade is worth only as much as what a dealership feels they can resell it for at a profit.
"By that I mean s/he gets nothing from the sale of the trade-in unless they sell it themselves. "
I am also quite curious about the actual bookkeeping involved ( probably unlikely anyone who knows the details will post the answer here, I suppose ) but:
When a trade value is assigned, sometimes that value as shown on the paperwork is actually an ‘inflated’ number. Meaning showing higher than legitimate wholesale value. Or, sometimes, it is actually a ‘low-ball’ trade number that some unsophisticated buyer accepts
In either case, my question is: Does the dealership carry the actual wholesale value on the books? And post an ‘adjustment’ from the paperwork number? And does the selling agent see any ( portion of? ) this in their compensation? - Ray Just really curious – and NOT willing to join any Dealer’s sales force or accounting dept. to find out . . .
I don't sell Toyotas but here's what I think happened.
I suspect Toyota HAD incentives on remaining 2006 Siennas and dropped them when they put the zero percent financing on them. No way could they do both.
Toyota must have been stuck with tons of leftover 2006's in order to do this. This was certainly not the case with Odysseys.
I wish they wouldn't do this. Customers seem to think these deals should happen everyday. Short term thinking that does nothing for the big picture.
A dealer will assign an "actual cash value" or ACV on a trade. This will be used when working a deal to determine profit, and will be carried across in accounting as base cost. Then reconditioning will be added to ACV for cost in the vehicle. Also, be aware that saes departments do not care about holdback or doc fees as they are not part of the sales departments profit - they are only dealer income. Actually, trade value is the hardest part to negotiate as customers usually think the trade is worth more than the market. Edmunds, NADA, etc are only guides - no bibles - and don't relate to a specific vehicle in a specific location.
Last month, I just purchased a new 2007 Corvette Coupe.
Things like an obviously inflated “Doc Fee” used to really annoy me.
( As distinct from fees for fabric and \ or paint protection. )
These days I just make certain that I know about any & all such fees before I consider doing business at any dealership. Rather than spend some ( poteinaly waste some ) amount of time and effort trying to change how a dealership typically does business, I ‘adjust’ the discount off MSRP to include the fees.
In this particular case, my target discount for an ordered ( nothing on the lot equipped as I wanted ) Coupe was $4,500. ( MSRP = $52,690 ) And when the discount hit $5,000 ( fees = $480 ) I ordered.
For those who do not know or care: The new Corvette market is rather different than for most non-Exotic cars – and can vary rather dramatically by geography. Dealer allocation for new Corvettes, for example, figures in here. Also, there are 3 or 4 large dealers that sell a fair number of Corvettes out-of-state, including my dealer.
Point here is that ‘my’ dealer is the fourth largest in the country & by far the largest in the southeast. And they typically have 35 to 40 new Corvettes in stock. ‘My’ salesperson, a specialist in Corvette sales for close to 10 years, was also quite agreeable to my request to test drive 2 different Corvettes, before making up my mind. ( Z51 and FE3 \ Base suspension. )
Thus, when I arrived at the dealership for the first time, I avoided the ‘sharks’ swimming near the showroom doors.
I test drove 2 Corvette Coupes over the same course I had just driven my own current sedan.
And I left having decided exactly what I’d order, when the time came. ( The discount offered then was only $2K – but this was before any 2007s had even been delivered to dealers. )
When I sat down with my salesperson to order, and when I took delivery 5+ weeks later, the process was efficient, as we both understood each other.
I could certainly have saved another $1,000 or more by purchasing from one of the larger dealers. I bought locally, from this dealer, for several reasons:
1 – The fact that they would allow me to test drive 2 Corvettes, so that I could make an informed decision regarding a critical ordering criteria weighed heavily.
2 – The fact that their service department handles more Corvettes than any other local dealer & I would prefer to have a Corvette serviced where sold.
3 – I had a trade. I am single, this Corvette would be my Daily Driver, and the logistics issues associated with either selling my car privately or trading to another dealer 1,000+ miles away were non-trivial.
These 3 factors each had a value – to me. And when I was able to obtain the ‘deal’ I wanted, I took it.
3 visits to the dealer: 1 = test drives. 2 = order. 3 = delivery.
Just my ‘story’, experience & my preference in dealing with a dealer.
- Ray Over 2,000 (s)miles on the new Corvette, so far . . .
I feel your pain, but dealers are not like that everywhere. I live in PA and the dealerships I go to are 50-60 miles outside mid sized cities, they are family own types, with small run down buildings, the newbie saleman has been there 6 years, maybe 250 cars on the lot.
No fuss at all, during normal business hours they have all the car keys placed on the hood of the used cars and a few new ones, although there are saleman walking the lots to help you out, you are free get in any car and check it out on your own. Trade in vs retail prices are very simlar to bluebook numbers with no BS added in at the end of the deal.
Now the local dealers in the PA cities, they are exactly as you describe! Huge modern chain store facilities, used cars marked up 7K from trade in value, blah blah blah....
Isell, I wish it was the case. I spoke with a SM on the phone yesterday, and he quoted $1000 under invoice and 0%. I guess I won’t know the truth until I sign the paperwork.
And it's not like they aren't making 3-4K on the car already between the interest and the price over their cost - but they want more.
I don't disagree that some dealers are out to take you for all you've got. However, excluding hiline vehicles, the average new car has 4-8% mark-up. That is not much considering some retail has over a 50% mark-up. Most of the brands we sell here have less than 4% mark up. Not that I agree, but the dealer has to make money somewhere, or else they won't stay in business too long.
Why do salesmen insist on asking these 'annoying' questions?
Because we're salesmen. When shopping for a house, do you tell anyone what kind of budget you are on? Or what range in thousands of dollars you are interested in looking at? If you didn't, you could spend years trying to find a house that would fit into your budget. You've got one, right?
It's the same way in car sales. You don't have to respond with "I'm looking to spend $33,245.13". You can respond with, I'm looking to spend between 20-25k. Super! I have a number of vehicles that fit in that range. Instead of wandering around the lot and trying to read your mind and determine what car would work for you.
It's all in the presentation, jmonroe. Some salesmen are smooth. Some aren't. There's no reason to get upset with someone because they ask you how much you are interested in spending. Seems completely reasonable to me.
-Moo
P.S. December is going well and is about to bust wide open.
Oh, I'm in the business and the veterans here know it.
I hope you never suffer a family emergency or prolonged medical problems and if you do, I hope nobody calls you a "roach" or jumps to the conclusion you are a deadbeat.
I have an 820 beacon but I suppose "something" could happen to change that.
Madman, I think I met you this morning. I stopped at a Honda dealer around 11AM today to take a look at an Odyssey. I told the salesman that I just want to check it out, but I am not buying today because my lease doesn’t expire for a month and there is no need for me to make an unnecessary payment.
After the test drive the salesman started working me over (what would it take?... what can I do?... blah, blah blah). Finally I agreed for them to appraise my van, telling them that they won’t be able to take it as trade-in without a major over-allowance because my residual is 18K on a 04 Odyssey EXL. What do you know, he comes back with a worksheet that says the retail price on the van is $39000 and their discounted price is $37500. MSRP is $35590. Needless to say, I just smiled and politely said no. So the salesman started begging me to give him a number that it would take for me to buy it today (I had no chose, he was holding my car keys). I told him invoice, and they pay my first monthly payment, and no trade-in, knowing full well that it won’t happen. Within 30 seconds the manager (aka Madman) runs out starts screaming at me: “You have a problem, your monthly payments are none of my concern. I only get four of these a month and I sell them at MSRP, and you will pay MSRP How do you even dare giving me such a ridiculous offer?” I don’t know what his problem was; I think he was just trying to scare me.
When I got back to my office, I called the dealer I leased the 04 Odyssey from, and he quoted me $100 over invoice.
In either case, my question is: Does the dealership carry the actual wholesale value on the books?
No, proper accounting would have the dealer debiting their inventory for what price they put on the contract for that paperwork. But since, as you say, many times they play with figures and use inflated numbers they "fudge" those numbers on their books. Basically they will adjust the numbers to reflect reality (reality being their what they want them to be). They will basically book the trade in at what they think they should have given as a trade in. This makes auditing dealerships a bit more tricky as their entiries don't match the source documents.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
exb0 got the BAD and UGLY sales treatment. I've had them in the past and have refused to do business with them. I really REALLY hate the hidden keys and hostage tactic.
Thankfully, there are so many GOOD sales people in this business! Seek them out and do repeat business with them. If you run across the truely BAD and UGLY sales teams, get out fast and NEVER-EVER do business with them!
That's one reason I carry two sets of car keys. I'd use the naked set for car testing and if they want to hold the keys and refuse ONE request to give them back, I'd drive off to police headquarters in that community and have the police pick up my stolen set from them.
I have never had a dealer play games with my car keys, luckily. I'd be furious.
I have an 820 beacon but I suppose "something" could happen to change that.
Sure can, lose your job then have to have some major medical work done (without insurance insurance) and you can watch that beacon score go down the toilet. Granted there are some people who have bad credit simply because of their own fault. But others simply get into some bad luck. You cannot automatically presume someone is a deadbeat because of a low credit score.
Fortunately repairing your credit is easy and not all that long. I have seen people coming out of bankruptcy increase their beacon score by almost 200 points in less than a year.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I really hate the "what can we do to get your business today?" questions from salesmen when I have, like you did, tell them I am just looking and not buying today.
But that sales manager running off like that beats all.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually snake, every deal has the ACV for the trade. Then any reconditioning costs are accounted for on Repair orders and added to the cost of the car. Dealership accounting is legal and easy to track
I am not saying that dealership accounting is illegal, or that anything is wrong with it. Just that it doesn't follow ordinary retail accounting practices for obvious reasons. Granted every deal has an AVC but thats not what is on the paperwork and technically they need to use the paperwork. But since its industry practice to inflate these numbers certain things are done that makes auditing more difficult to do.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If I might add, all sales, service and parts accounting is handled by the dealer software. Most dealers use Reynolds and Reynolds or ADP. Any cost of parts or service are added as it occurs. Even if a old unit is written down (one of the uses for pack money) it is reflected immediately in the accounting software. We are run as any business is!
Snake, I have been in the business for 13 years (might add retired Navy O-6) and in well over 99% of the time the ACV is what is shown to our customers. In fact, I will over allow in some cases to do the deal with the hope I can find a wholesaler to step up on the trade.
You don't have to respond with "I'm looking to spend $33,245.13". You can respond with, I'm looking to spend between 20-25k. Super! I have a number of vehicles that fit in that range. Instead of wandering around the lot and trying to read your mind and determine what car would work for you.
Moo, one problem with giving a range of $$$ that one would like to spend is that it can become a negotiation too early in the sales process.
For instance, before even test driving something, if I gave a salesperson a range of 22-24K: I'm thinking about a near-26K car after a good discount, while the salesperson might be thinking about a 22K car sold at full sticker with a bunch of dealer add-ons. We're probably thinking of two very different vehicles. The salesperson is going to try their best to steer me away from what I really want because it's too early in the game for them to start thinking "mini sale."
As far as the bad credit issue... There are any number of reasons why somebody could have bad credit, many of which are NOT entirely their fault- in addition to those already mentioned like health problems there could be divorice, small business failure, IDENTITY THEFT... it could happen to anybody. Give the guy a break!
one problem with giving a range of $$$ that one would like to spend is that it can become a negotiation too early in the sales process.
Not only that but it exposes your upper limit and that gives the salesperson a target. In other words you will more likely than not pay near the upper end of that spread.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I really hate the "what can we do to get your business today?" questions from salesmen when I have, like you did, tell them I am just looking and not buying today.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in a salesperson in any business qualifying (the vast majority of car buyers are payment buyers) although there are better methods than the above. The greatest compliment a salesman can receive is "I had not planned on buying today". That means I did my job in a professional way.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in a salesperson in any business qualifying
No there is nothing wrong with that. However there is something wrong with pressing the sale when the customer clearly has stated that they were just looking.
The greatest compliment a salesman can receive is "I had not planned on buying today".
As a consumer that statement worries me. that is because proper research has not been done. It basically means that the chances are much greater that it was an impulse buy which is not a good ideal in a car thats going to run $15+K.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think next time I will say, "take my car as a trade in and keep my current car payments the same. I don't care how long the loan term is I just want my current car payments to stay the same".
FWIW my car is paid off
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In most cases it is because we exceeded expectations. (Give us some credit). Also, in most retail transactions (TV, Furniture, houses, cars) people make emotional decisions.
Also, in most retail transactions (TV, Furniture, houses, cars) people make emotional decisions.
While an emotional decision is fine in buying a pack of gum or, as my wife would say, those cute little shoes I just have to have.
Making emotional decisions when buying big ticket items leads in many cases to the poor house. How many people making those emotional decisions in buying your cars are rolling negative equity into their new car? Big ticket purchases should be a cold calculated decision.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I do have to wonder a bit though, it sounds like you were happy with the dealer that sold you the 2004? Why didn't you just go back there and hopefully look up the salesperson who sold it to you?
That’s a long story. As you have seen from my previous posts, my wife and I are trying to decide if we should get 06 Sienna now with 0% APR, or wait a month and get 07 Odyssey at lease end.
We had a weekend from hell trying to locate an XLE with DVD and NAV. Late last night I found a Limited that my wife is agreeable to, and we had to make a decision on it by COB today. Before I made the decision, I decided to take a look at the Odyssey and stopped at dealer that was on a way while I was running some other errand. The dealer that I bought the 04 from is about 30 mi from where I was, and I wasn’t about to make a special trip there today. However, I will buy from that dealer when it’s time. So I ended up getting screamed at by Madman because it was convenient. BTW, Isell, my wife landed on Nimbus Gray EXL NAV and RES, is this common combination, or is it something I should “order” ahead of time?
BTW, guys don’t feel bad for me. This treatment didn’t bother me at all. I have been reading these forums for a few years now, and I knew every move they were going to make before they made it, so it was rather amusing.
As far as: I also think you if some one came to me and "demanded to tell me what the incentives are" it would be a short conversation.
I guess I should have made myself clearer. I was using a buying service that pre-negotiates prices with dealers. Part of their contract with dealers is that dealers have to pass manufacturer incentives to the service members. As a matter of fact, the buying service survey has a question: “Did the UBS Rep. credit you with manufacturer incentives?” So, I was perfectly within my rights to demand to know what the incentives are, but from that dealer only.
Comments
No, you don't. Unfortunately, some cannot resist making unfounded generalizations based on their own personal perceptions. I think we should all avoid sweeping generalizations.
tidester, host
Now, most of it wasn't the salespeople, but I never ever saw a salesperson step up for me, either and not just go along with management or finance either. They KNOW it's apalling terms or goign to ream me and they ignore it and smile like nothing's happening.
So lost another sale. $3000 cash down and - I just got too frustrated because nobody would deal with my in a straightforward manner. Evidently I'm not alone, either. Sales nationwide are horrible from what I hear.
I know....born and raised in San Pedro.
You might want to try a bank you have a relationship with.
This dealership also sells Land Rovers where I bought my LR3 almost a year ago. They had 2006 and 2007 Land Rovers but no Jaguar XJ's!!! The XK's are nice!
This dealer is moving in about two weeks to a new building facility. Surely they didn't move the new XJ's only leaving one? I'll call them and check it out as they are closed on Sunday.
If my local dealer is out... either these are a hot commodity or they are making killer deals.
Do you know when the XJ will change? 2008 or 2009??
Mark156
Our regional service rep is also a Jag service rep and none of the jag dealerships in our area are doing very well. In fact the newest Land Rover Dealer in New England built a Very LARGE Land Rover showroom with a tiny Jaguar Annex specificly because they were worried that the market might not support a jag dealership.
If Jag fails in that area they are still ok with the large Land Rover dealer.
Jags pretty slow with redesigns just like Land Rover, the S-type is finaly being redesigned next year after nearly a decade of the same design, so I would expect the XJ to last untill 2010 or later.
I assume the sales representative has no interest in the trade-in; only in the new vehicle being sold.
By that I mean s/he gets nothing from the sale of the trade-in unless they sell it themselves.
Am I barking up the right tree?
2025 Forester Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport
I was also trying that - but ran into a shortage of vehicles that I liked(too new for most individuals to sell). PArt of it was bad luck I guess, but most of it was Los Angeles. Worst place in the planet to buy or sell a car.
So I ended up doing that - bought a friend's old 4Runner for cash. Yes, it's old, but it's also cheap and works great - has a lot of upgraded off-road parts on it.
I am shopping for 06 Toyota Siena. 07 are about to hit the showrooms so dealers are trying to move 06s. I live in Washington DC area; the land of fitzmall and Carmax, who put their inventory online with low internet prices. As the result, about 75% of Toyota dealers out here also list their inventories online with invoices and/or internet prices. While browsing the inventories I came across one dealer who advertises all of their Siannas at $2100 under invoice, four who advertise at $1000 under invoice.
I naturally assume there is a major manufactures incentives on this van. I called the United Buying Service (UBS) to get a certificate for one of their dealers. UBS is a local service that pre-negotiates their prices with dealers, and the dealers are supposed to pass all the incentives on to the customer. I went to the UBS dealer and demanded to tell me what the incentives are. Both the SP and SM look at me like I have two heads, and show me some piece of paper form Toyota showing that there are no incentives on Siannas. To be perfectly honest with you, both of them seem very sincere and I believe them.
My question to you is can other dealers be willing to lose so much money on these vans? It’s not one or two at this price, the whole inventory is at $2100 or $1000 under the invoice. They could not possibly make all this money up on volume bonuses, or by getting additional allocations on hot selling cars.
That said, if the trade is a stumbling block in selling that new iron, then it behooves the salesperson to get the trade "stumbling block" removed so they can move the new car.
In general, a trade is worth only as much as what a dealership feels they can resell it for at a profit.
I am also quite curious about the actual bookkeeping involved ( probably unlikely anyone who knows the details will post the answer here, I suppose ) but:
When a trade value is assigned, sometimes that value as shown on the paperwork is actually an ‘inflated’ number. Meaning showing higher than legitimate wholesale value. Or, sometimes, it is actually a ‘low-ball’ trade number that some unsophisticated buyer accepts
In either case, my question is:
Does the dealership carry the actual wholesale value on the books?
And post an ‘adjustment’ from the paperwork number?
And does the selling agent see any ( portion of? ) this in their compensation?
- Ray
Just really curious – and NOT willing to join any Dealer’s sales force or accounting dept. to find out . . .
I suspect Toyota HAD incentives on remaining 2006 Siennas and dropped them when they put the zero percent financing on them. No way could they do both.
Toyota must have been stuck with tons of leftover 2006's in order to do this. This was certainly not the case with Odysseys.
I wish they wouldn't do this. Customers seem to think these deals should happen everyday. Short term thinking that does nothing for the big picture.
Things like an obviously inflated “Doc Fee” used to really annoy me.
( As distinct from fees for fabric and \ or paint protection. )
These days I just make certain that I know about any & all such fees before I consider doing business at any dealership. Rather than spend some ( poteinaly waste some ) amount of time and effort trying to change how a dealership typically does business, I ‘adjust’ the discount off MSRP to include the fees.
In this particular case, my target discount for an ordered ( nothing on the lot equipped as I wanted ) Coupe was $4,500. ( MSRP = $52,690 ) And when the discount hit $5,000 ( fees = $480 ) I ordered.
For those who do not know or care: The new Corvette market is rather different than for most non-Exotic cars – and can vary rather dramatically by geography. Dealer allocation for new Corvettes, for example, figures in here. Also, there are 3 or 4 large dealers that sell a fair number of Corvettes out-of-state, including my dealer.
Point here is that ‘my’ dealer is the fourth largest in the country & by far the largest in the southeast. And they typically have 35 to 40 new Corvettes in stock. ‘My’ salesperson, a specialist in Corvette sales for close to 10 years, was also quite agreeable to my request to test drive 2 different Corvettes, before making up my mind. ( Z51 and FE3 \ Base suspension. )
Thus, when I arrived at the dealership for the first time, I avoided the ‘sharks’ swimming near the showroom doors.
I test drove 2 Corvette Coupes over the same course I had just driven my own current sedan.
And I left having decided exactly what I’d order, when the time came. ( The discount offered then was only $2K – but this was before any 2007s had even been delivered to dealers. )
When I sat down with my salesperson to order, and when I took delivery 5+ weeks later, the process was efficient, as we both understood each other.
I could certainly have saved another $1,000 or more by purchasing from one of the larger dealers. I bought locally, from this dealer, for several reasons:
1 – The fact that they would allow me to test drive 2 Corvettes, so that I could make an informed decision regarding a critical ordering criteria weighed heavily.
2 – The fact that their service department handles more Corvettes than any other local dealer & I would prefer to have a Corvette serviced where sold.
3 – I had a trade. I am single, this Corvette would be my Daily Driver, and the logistics issues associated with either selling my car privately or trading to another dealer 1,000+ miles away were non-trivial.
These 3 factors each had a value – to me. And when I was able to obtain the ‘deal’ I wanted, I took it.
3 visits to the dealer: 1 = test drives. 2 = order. 3 = delivery.
Just my ‘story’, experience & my preference in dealing with a dealer.
- Ray
Over 2,000 (s)miles on the new Corvette, so far . . .
- Ray
With yet another new TLA ( Three Letter Acronym ) to file away!
There are off-roads in LA?:)
I feel your pain, but dealers are not like that everywhere. I live in PA and the dealerships I go to are 50-60 miles outside mid sized cities, they are family own types, with small run down buildings, the newbie saleman has been there 6 years, maybe 250 cars on the lot.
No fuss at all, during normal business hours they have all the car keys placed on the hood of the used cars and a few new ones, although there are saleman walking the lots to help you out, you are free get in any car and check it out on your own. Trade in vs retail prices are very simlar to bluebook numbers with no BS added in at the end of the deal.
Now the local dealers in the PA cities, they are exactly as you describe! Huge modern chain store facilities, used cars marked up 7K from trade in value, blah blah blah....
It's still no bargain loan, but it feels like you should be able to get better than that somewhere.
I don't disagree that some dealers are out to take you for all you've got. However, excluding hiline vehicles, the average new car has 4-8% mark-up. That is not much considering some retail has over a 50% mark-up. Most of the brands we sell here have less than 4% mark up. Not that I agree, but the dealer has to make money somewhere, or else they won't stay in business too long.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Because we're salesmen. When shopping for a house, do you tell anyone what kind of budget you are on? Or what range in thousands of dollars you are interested in looking at? If you didn't, you could spend years trying to find a house that would fit into your budget. You've got one, right?
It's the same way in car sales. You don't have to respond with "I'm looking to spend $33,245.13". You can respond with, I'm looking to spend between 20-25k. Super! I have a number of vehicles that fit in that range. Instead of wandering around the lot and trying to read your mind and determine what car would work for you.
It's all in the presentation, jmonroe. Some salesmen are smooth. Some aren't. There's no reason to get upset with someone because they ask you how much you are interested in spending. Seems completely reasonable to me.
-Moo
P.S. December is going well and is about to bust wide open.
That was totally uncalled for! How do you know this wasn't caused by medical problems or just plain bad luck in that person's life?
I hope you never suffer a family emergency or prolonged medical problems and if you do, I hope nobody calls you a "roach" or jumps to the conclusion you are a deadbeat.
I have an 820 beacon but I suppose "something" could happen to change that.
"Why you got bad credit?"
My answer would be "None of your business"!
Hosts, can we get these past posts deleted?
After the test drive the salesman started working me over (what would it take?... what can I do?... blah, blah blah). Finally I agreed for them to appraise my van, telling them that they won’t be able to take it as trade-in without a major over-allowance because my residual is 18K on a 04 Odyssey EXL. What do you know, he comes back with a worksheet that says the retail price on the van is $39000 and their discounted price is $37500. MSRP is $35590. Needless to say, I just smiled and politely said no. So the salesman started begging me to give him a number that it would take for me to buy it today (I had no chose, he was holding my car keys). I told him invoice, and they pay my first monthly payment, and no trade-in, knowing full well that it won’t happen. Within 30 seconds the manager (aka Madman) runs out starts screaming at me: “You have a problem, your monthly payments are none of my concern. I only get four of these a month and I sell them at MSRP, and you will pay MSRP How do you even dare giving me such a ridiculous offer?” I don’t know what his problem was; I think he was just trying to scare me.
When I got back to my office, I called the dealer I leased the 04 Odyssey from, and he quoted me $100 over invoice.
Does the dealership carry the actual wholesale value on the books?
No, proper accounting would have the dealer debiting their inventory for what price they put on the contract for that paperwork. But since, as you say, many times they play with figures and use inflated numbers they "fudge" those numbers on their books. Basically they will adjust the numbers to reflect reality (reality being their what they want them to be). They will basically book the trade in at what they think they should have given as a trade in. This makes auditing dealerships a bit more tricky as their entiries don't match the source documents.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thankfully, there are so many GOOD sales people in this business! Seek them out and do repeat business with them. If you run across the truely BAD and UGLY sales teams, get out fast and NEVER-EVER do business with them!
That's one reason I carry two sets of car keys. I'd use the naked set for car testing and if they want to hold the keys and refuse ONE request to give them back, I'd drive off to police headquarters in that community and have the police pick up my stolen set from them.
I have never had a dealer play games with my car keys, luckily. I'd be furious.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Sure can, lose your job then have to have some major medical work done (without insurance insurance) and you can watch that beacon score go down the toilet. Granted there are some people who have bad credit simply because of their own fault. But others simply get into some bad luck. You cannot automatically presume someone is a deadbeat because of a low credit score.
Fortunately repairing your credit is easy and not all that long. I have seen people coming out of bankruptcy increase their beacon score by almost 200 points in less than a year.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I really hate the "what can we do to get your business today?" questions from salesmen when I have, like you did, tell them I am just looking and not buying today.
But that sales manager running off like that beats all.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Moo, one problem with giving a range of $$$ that one would like to spend is that it can become a negotiation too early in the sales process.
For instance, before even test driving something, if I gave a salesperson a range of 22-24K: I'm thinking about a near-26K car after a good discount, while the salesperson might be thinking about a 22K car sold at full sticker with a bunch of dealer add-ons. We're probably thinking of two very different vehicles. The salesperson is going to try their best to steer me away from what I really want because it's too early in the game for them to start thinking "mini sale."
As far as the bad credit issue... There are any number of reasons why somebody could have bad credit, many of which are NOT entirely their fault- in addition to those already mentioned like health problems there could be divorice, small business failure, IDENTITY THEFT... it could happen to anybody. Give the guy a break!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not only that but it exposes your upper limit and that gives the salesperson a target. In other words you will more likely than not pay near the upper end of that spread.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
There is absolutely nothing wrong in a salesperson in any business qualifying (the vast majority of car buyers are payment buyers) although there are better methods than the above. The greatest compliment a salesman can receive is "I had not planned on buying today". That means I did my job in a professional way.
I do have to wonder a bit though, it sounds like you were happy with the dealer that sold you the 2004?
Why didn't you just go back there and hopefully look up the salesperson who sold it to you?
My answer is usually something like "Sell it to me for half off!"
tidester, host
No there is nothing wrong with that. However there is something wrong with pressing the sale when the customer clearly has stated that they were just looking.
The greatest compliment a salesman can receive is "I had not planned on buying today".
As a consumer that statement worries me. that is because proper research has not been done. It basically means that the chances are much greater that it was an impulse buy which is not a good ideal in a car thats going to run $15+K.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
FWIW my car is paid off
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
While an emotional decision is fine in buying a pack of gum or, as my wife would say, those cute little shoes I just have to have.
Making emotional decisions when buying big ticket items leads in many cases to the poor house. How many people making those emotional decisions in buying your cars are rolling negative equity into their new car? Big ticket purchases should be a cold calculated decision.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Why didn't you just go back there and hopefully look up the salesperson who sold it to you?
That’s a long story. As you have seen from my previous posts, my wife and I are trying to decide if we should get 06 Sienna now with 0% APR, or wait a month and get 07 Odyssey at lease end.
We had a weekend from hell trying to locate an XLE with DVD and NAV. Late last night I found a Limited that my wife is agreeable to, and we had to make a decision on it by COB today. Before I made the decision, I decided to take a look at the Odyssey and stopped at dealer that was on a way while I was running some other errand. The dealer that I bought the 04 from is about 30 mi from where I was, and I wasn’t about to make a special trip there today. However, I will buy from that dealer when it’s time. So I ended up getting screamed at by Madman because it was convenient. BTW, Isell, my wife landed on Nimbus Gray EXL NAV and RES, is this common combination, or is it something I should “order” ahead of time?
BTW, guys don’t feel bad for me. This treatment didn’t bother me at all. I have been reading these forums for a few years now, and I knew every move they were going to make before they made it, so it was rather amusing.
I love that one - not even "if you want it", just plain "you'll pay". So what happens if I don't? Are you gonna kick me? Beat me? Shoot me? Bite me?
First you have to cath me running away :shades:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Also can't imagine wanting to do 2100 back of invoice even with the rebate.That would really mess with my averages.
I also think you if some one came to me and "demanded to tell me what the incentives are" it would be a short conversation.
As far as: I also think you if some one came to me and "demanded to tell me what the incentives are" it would be a short conversation.
I guess I should have made myself clearer. I was using a buying service that pre-negotiates prices with dealers. Part of their contract with dealers is that dealers have to pass manufacturer incentives to the service members. As a matter of fact, the buying service survey has a question: “Did the UBS Rep. credit you with manufacturer incentives?” So, I was perfectly within my rights to demand to know what the incentives are, but from that dealer only.