You are the kind of customer that returns to me for a sale. Others won't give me the satisfaction. Maybe they think I'll say "I told you so". Of course, I never would.
I lowball folks if necessary. When I have certain customers who lie to me about the worth of their trade, or how much they can get a vehicle for.... I have no problems with that. What's good for the goose...
Obviously, this isn't a practice that I use constantly, but only with certain types of customers. It's actually quite amusing.
Again, Isellhondas, you've NEVER lowballed anyone?
Probably to the selling dealer. They are about 30 mins. away, depending on traffic, but I was pleased enough with the buying experience to give them a try. They are building a large new service center and have a new owner's clinic, so I'll see what impression I get when I attend that.
Fair enough. It's just certain folks who insist on lying to us. It's a guilty pleasure to stick it back at them a little. Sometimes you'll still end up selling the car too.
In eleven years, I have never, once had a customer ask to do this nor have I heard of this happening in our store.
It could very well be that the type of person on this board is more likely to do so than the general public. If we didn't have a somewhat more interest in the subject we wouldn't spend as much time on these boards.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have had many customers who research just as much as you do and ask questions (for which I have answers) that are not found in manuals or on lie - such as how does Dynamic Response work and do I need it?
If you didn't find the answer to that online you didn't look hard enough. Now do you need it is a very subjective question and only the buyer is truely qualified to answer it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
He was probably thinking of the Crown Victoria Sport (the model that has the performance of a Police Interceptor, but is built for civilians).
Yeah, that's what I eventually figured. He heard "RWD V8 Sedan" and all he had was that dinosaur. I'm sure loads of M5 buyers cross-shop the Crown Vic. :P
None of those links explain how Dynamic Response work.
That stupid video doesn't really show anything.
I can show you what the guts of Dynamic Response are but the only way to actually understand it is have a salesguide whip you around a you turn at 30 mph with no body roll.
The pinion gear(curly looking thing) at the far left of the pictures is part of the system.
Last night a friend of mine asked me to go along with him to buy 2 trucks for his business. He was looking at one Sliverado and one Tahoe.
Just so happens that the place I bought my BMW from, also has a store close by that sells Chevies.
I got all the research done for him with MSRP...invoice....incentives, etc. Since the owner of the BMW store and the Chevy store attends my church, I gave him a jingle to prearrange a deal for both trucks. Usually, I don't deal with the owner to consumate a deal other than to get a price, as he hands me off to one of his sales managers. This time, however, he said to meet with him directly. He said he had something he wanted to show me.
We get to the dealership and lo and behold, the owner is standing right next to a brand spanking new 'vette Z06 in front of the dealership. Story behind it, two years ago, a guy put a deposit down on the Z06 in anticipation of it being produced. Well, it was finally produced, but this guy is also an employee of the local Ford manufacturing plant (ironic, isn't it). He had just recently taken the "buyout offer" from Ford. He just didn't want to stretch himself so thin at a time when his employment situation is in flux. So, he backed out of the deal.
Dealership owner asks if I want to go for a ride. Silly question, of course I do. Figuring he was going to do the dirving, I was surprised when he tells me to get into the driver's seat. We didn't go far....maybe 5 miles. But, WOW.....what a ride. I wasn't allowed to open it up....didn't matter. I couldn't have found enough road to even remotely touch the performance potential of the car. Most surprisingly was the ride/handling trade-off. I thought my BMW was good in that respect. The Z06 is in another universe in being telepathic in the way it handles, but much more supple than I expected. Acceleration is flat out wicked.
After pulling back into the dealership parking lot, the owner said I could buy it, if interested. The waiting list for these is stretched to over 12 months for these cars. Tough to say no, but at $70K, I would have to divest myself of some assets to get it. Had to pass. Didn't want to, though.
BTW.....my friend bought both the Tahoe and the Silverado. Had to drive the Tahoe back to his office while he drove the Sliverado. Gotta say, aside from what will no doubt be dismal MPG, and the size of it, the Tahoe is a very nice vehicle....nicely put together with good materials. That was a surprise. Nice steering, handling and braking. It drives like a much smaller vehicle.
Last night was the highlight of my holiday season, so far.
That is what the F430 felt like when I drove it. I could never find enough road around here to open it up. Was a blast to drive though and I can see the similarities between it and the Z06. Makes me understand better why my client bought a Z06 as well.
Oh none of them are me. Those pictures are from the website of a company that does all the cut aways for Land Rover exhibits and the tech school.
We haven't had any problems with the Dynamic Response system besides some little clicky noises when crossing speed bumps at certain angles.
Apprently this makes the system cycle rapidly in anticipation of a sharp turn and so at low speed you can here a click-thunk noise.
Doesn't hurt anything but people have complained about it so I am sure it will show up as a problem on JD Powers/CR's surveys. :confuse:
It is just part of the normal operation of that system.
The predescsor to Dynamic Response which was the ACE(active cornering enhancment) Package had problems but all of those kinks have been worked out now.
>dealership parking lot, the owner said I could buy it, if interested. The waiting list for these is stretched to over 12 months for these cars. Tough to say no, but at $70K, I would have to divest myself of some assets to get it. Had to pass. Didn't want to, though
Did you ask if he would work a GM deal on a slightly used, problematic STS that was giving battery problems?
imi....as a matter of fact I did ask him about taking a problematic STS in trade. Dealer said he wouldn't insult me with his offer. He's well aware of the problems I'm going through and is actually trying to help me cut through GM's red tape.
But, as the dealership's owner said, GM doesn't do anything quickly or easily.
As it stands, BBB said they'd render a decision on the Caddy by 1/15. Cadillac then has 30 days to respond to whatever decision BBB comes up with. If I don't like their decision, I can then take legal action. Needless to say, I'm a ways away from getting this abomination resolved.
But, as the dealership's owner said, GM doesn't do anything quickly or easily.
It was this type of an attitude that forced the American public to to start buying imports (from whom ever made them), now they have had there lunch and dinner eaten for quite sometime and they still don't get it.
It took a cold day in hell to get me away from GM (always owned GM until 2005) but they finally did it. :sick:
I know, I'm slow, many did it years ago.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
No I was talking about the links that Mac supplied from google talking about it and you saying that if you can search for it that fast it must not be very hard to explain.
T'was I that made the original post earlier, and the link I gave was to a simple but narrow Google search. The first of 15,000+/- results was LR's own site where the link to the 'stupid' video resides. I can't argue that it isn't pretty stupid, though it's not the video that's at fault but the lack of a sound track to explain what's happening. Someone at LR's PR media dept needs a talking to!
My post was in response to an earlier statement that a salesman was a necessity to explain a vehicles features. I have to admit that BR makes a good point about giving a physical demonstration of the Dynamic Response feature, and I would have had to have searched rather hard to find the fascinating pictures from 'CutawayCreations'. Even better are some pics they have of a cutaway version of a whole LR3.
j and cc...it's a shame that GM just doesn't seem to "get it". I've driven several of their vehicles, either as rentals, or by chance. Some of them are very good ('vette & Tahoe come to mind). Even the STS is really quite nice (when it runs). As they say, the devil is in the details, however.
I can't imagine any of my recent cars being as problematic as this alleged premium GM brand has been. Just as important, GM and it's dealer network just don't care.
Using my BMW as an example, I couldn't even fathom they'd be this obstinate if such issues existed on my 3 series. Even the most minute issue (and there really hasn't been anything much I'd even consider minute go wrong with the car) with my 3, gets immediate attention, response and satisfactory resolution. Same way when I had my TL. I did have some minor issues with my Mustang. Ford seemed to be in the same boat as GM. They just don't get the details down. Moreover, they don't care about customer satisfaction.
Design sells cars, but service and attention to detail is what keeps you coming back. This is where both Ford and GM fall down miserably. They want to right their ship? Fix their dealership service depts....get the details right. That would be a good start. GM's modus operandi? Deny the problems exist. And, delay long enough that any sort of reasonable customer satisfaction resolution can be salvaged.
While I've been driving my Mother's Caddy every day, the issue hasn't cropped up. OF course, I know as soon as I let it sit for a couple of days, I'm guaranteed it won't start. OnStar probably knows me by my first name by now (they're not much help either, except to call a tow truck...which takes hours). I've gone so far as to buy one of those portable battery packs I put in the trunk to jump it.
This takes me back to my younger days when I drove junk heeps...and the question of whether they'd start or not was a crap shoot every day. But, those were $200-$500 throwaway cars. This is a relatively new $50K car we're talking about. There's no remotely plausible excuse for this.
Didn't mean to rant on this, but I'm beyond frustrated.
BTW....Happy Holidays to all.....Ho! Ho! Ho!
May peace, health, and happiness fill your days, now and well into the future.
I respectfully disagree with you about BMW and TL. I currently drive 04 TL, and it has the infamous 5th gear vibration issue that many owners have complained about. When I took it in for service the first time, the dealer simply refused to do anything about it. When I called Acura customer service, the teenager who picked up the phone tried to brush me off until I raised my voice at him. After that, they replaced the tires which didn’t resolve the issue. On subsequent calls to customer service I was told that it’s the “characteristic of the car” and they are not going to do anything about it. I didn’t pursue it any further.
A friend of mine had a 04 3 series BMW, with check engine light problem. He took it in three times and the dealer would just reset the light. My friend hired a lawyer, and she sent the “last chance” letter to the dealer. This time the dealer took the issue a little more seriously, but hasn’t fixed the problem. The car was lemoned, and the dealer had to find a new BMW. After that, dealership’s GM asked my friend why he didn’t ask them to fix the problem without getting a lawyer, because it has cost them 5K in lawyer and transport fees. Amazing, isn’t it?
Another guy I know had been trying to lemon an E series MB for six months now with the same lawyer. MB is fighting tooth and nail. The lawyer said that MB fights the hardest when it comes to the lemon law.
It never seems to happen. Typically my lowball will include a "What if...". If they say they will do it, then I just let them know that I was trying to gauge where they were at.
Also, these lowballs are kept to a specific group of people who just enjoy wasting salespeople's time. They have no real intention of buying at the moment, just kicking around and trying to see where everyone is at.
exb0....can't really comment on your acquaintences experiences.
But, as an example, a few months ago, I was pulling out of my admittedly steep driveway in my 3. As luck would have it, the bottom of the front of the car scraped the pavement. While I thought that the "bumper rash" was something that was barely noticeable, my BMW dealer repainted the entire bumper for me at "no charge" while I was having some accessories installed....didn't even ask me how I did it, or if I wanted it done. They didn't have to do that as it wasn't their fault. But, that was the kind of customer satisfaction that will go a long ways to keep me in the BMW fold, whenever I'm in the market again.
MB's reputation has been in a downward spiral for awhile. They've got a lot of work to do. I've never bought one since they really don't offer anything I might want. But, based on what I've read/heard, I'd not venture into their showrooms until they get their act together.
My TL, while it didn't have any problems, was always washed and vacuumed whenever I got it back from having oil changes. Plus, it never took more than 20-30 minutes to have the dealership change the oil. Got Starbucks and pastries while I waited, too. While that's not neccessary, it was just part of the Acura dealership's drive to keep their customers happy.
My dealings with GM is on a whole other level (much lower). This is on their premium brand, too (Cadillac). They can't come remotely close to the customer satisfaction I got from what I experienced with both BMW and Acura.
I'm certain all car companies are loath to take any vehicle back for any reason. But, as you noted, at some point, enough is enough. If the dealer's service dept. or the manufacturer can't/won't fix their cars, eventually you have to just go the "lemon law" route.
In my case, my issues are before the BBB mediation process. I've never been through one of these. And, they certainly take their sweet time getting resolutions. But, that's probably why GM uses the process. I really don't want to hire a lawyer. Nor, do I relish the fact that it will come to that. But, I don't know that it won't be something I'll end up doing, eventually.
moo....it's not difficult to tell when there's an unrealistic "low ball" in play. We all know that no dealership is going to sell their wares at a loss, unless there's something extraordinary involved with the vehicle in question (re-paints, lots of demo miles, etc).
But, if someone comes into your showroom playing those games, I don't see an issue with you playing back to them. Why even waist your time, though. I think you guys say that the buyer who comes in claiming a low ball is legit, they don't turn into sales, anyway. Why not just "cut bait" on them?
Took the Santa Fe to the dealer for appraisal this morning. Evidently it was as in the condition as I explained to the saleslady. They accepted my (bobst - modified) offer and the wife drove it home.
As close as I can figure, considering there was a trade involved and a $1,500 incentive, we paid approximately $800 under Edmunds TMV.
They made a few bucks and I saved a pile of frogs compared to MSRP.
I work for a company that makes me eligible for supplier discounts from all of the big 2.5. My wife is in love with the new Pontiac Torrent, and I know GM is offering an additional $1,000 rebate to individuals who are eligible as a GM supplier.
My thinking is the best way to approach this is to contact my dealer and tell them I am eligible for supplier discount and rebates, and tell them the color and options we are looking for. From what I understand, the price is set, the rebates are set, and GM will reimburse the dealer for any transfer fees if they need to get a vehicle from another dealer?
So, is it about as close to a no brainer transaction as possible? Also, is it any different for a Saturn if we decide to wait until they firesale out the 2007 VUE's when the 2008's hit the showroom?
I'd like to buy from my local dealer, as I try to establish long term relationships when it comes to make purchases.
You said it right, GG. Most of the time these people are dealt with as cutting bait and moving on. Other times, you're slow and bored, you amuse yourself.
However the spirit moves me. Call me vindictive. :shades:
Truth be told, these are normally phone conversations where you have someone offering ridiculous numbers and I respond in kind.
jsylvester....you're all set. The supplier price is what it is. In general, the only better price you would be able to get would be the employee discount. As you found, supplier and employee purchases have some extra incentives, over an above what the general public can get.
Transfer fees? If the vehicle you want is a couple of hundred miles away, I can see where there might be some nominal transfer fee involved, but I'd reject any sort of transfer fee.
Saturn has a little bit of a different philosophy than GM's other brands. Since they are supposed to be a "no dicker...it's sticker" place, the amount of supplier discount isn't something I'm familiar with on that brand. That said, they sure are advertising rebates quite a bit.
I do know there are some incentives that GM is giving their dealers that aren't published for the Red Tag Sales Event. Ask the dealership about those, too.
I've bought 3 Saturns with my GM Supplier Discount in the past four years ... while it's tough to get a good sense of what the numbers are from the GM website, there is a bit of a discount from MSRP. Then, any incentives are added (subtracted?) from the price.
Will there be great deals on the '07 VUEs next spring? I suppose that it depends on when the '08 will be released, but I would be very surprised if there wasn't some sort of rebate offered. When we bought my wife's '04 VUE in November of '05 (end of the model year), there was a $3500 rebate in place.
Good luck, and keep us posted!
(BTW, if you are deciding between the VUE and the Torrent, I'd go with the VUE --- we looked briefly at the Equinox in our search and found that the rear cargo area is affected greatly by the suspension towers intruding into that space. That, plus the difference in HP at the time - 250 for the VUE vs. 185 for the 'Nox - was a deciding factor. Oh, and the polymer panels. My own opinion, of course.)
I'd probably be irritated if a dealer resprayed the paint on part of my car without asking me first... Non-factory paint is seldom as error-free as the original.
To give you another perspective on BMW, my 3-series had a problem with the accessory mode from the day that I got it. The "low battery" icon would display after about five minutes and then the accessory mode would turn off. Also, the "rest" function on the heater never worked. And, the radio would not power up for more than two seconds with the car turned off. It was obvious to me that for some reason, the car thought the battery was low and was shutting down the accessories. Dealers #1 and 2 said it was normal operation. Dealer #3 agreed that it was a problem, ordered and replaced a junction box, and sent me on my way. After my first trip in the car, the same symptoms occurred. Dealer #3 finally replaced a sensor and fixed the problem. They had the car for a total of 18 days. Gosh, I wonder why a lot of high-end brands have a reputation for having electrical problems?
The real moral of this story is that two BMW dealers refused to even acknowledge that there was something wrong with my car. I finally got it fixed over the summer by going to the third dealer.
Gosh, I wonder why a lot of high-end brands have a reputation for having electrical problems?
Because they: 1. convinced their customers that it's worth paying full price for experimental and unproven features. 2. use inferior suppliers to cut costs under competitive pressure.
Electrical systems are easiest to attempt to cut cost on, as there will always be a yahoo who will promise you better price for the wire that looks the same and when it works, works the same. Interior materials - easy to catch, weak engine, crappy transmission - easy to spot. Inferior relay/switch - not so much. When it works, it works just fine, when it fails, it can be always blamed on "complicated", "cutting edge" technology.
While I understand if someone is wasting your time and intentionally misleading you low balling them but how do you feel about intentionally misleading someone just to get them on the lot?
Many years ago, sometime in the early 90's, my brother was looking for a new car. He was not sure just what he wanted but found a 4X4 Rodeo that the dealer offered us for what turned out to be a very good price. Well it was before the internet, we were young and not sure if it was really that great of a deal. It was a pretty much stripped model and if I remember right it was a year end model. Well not knowing just how good the price was I called another dealer 70 miles away. I told him exactly what we were looking at and he assured me he had one just like it on the lot and could do better on the price. Well the next day I took off work, picked up my brother checkbook in hand and drove the 120 miles to the dealership. Well the dealer was waiting for us and took us for a test drive in one that was fully loaded. I expected and up sell but figured he had the one we had talked about the day before. Well we get back to the dealership and immediately into one of the many cubicles. He immediately came out with a piece of paper for my brother to sign. It said he agreed to purchase the car for so much a month. I stepped in and said one it was not the car he told us it was and two I wanted to know the price. He informed me that they did not have a car like the one he told me they did and they always negotiated from payment. I again asked for the price and then it got ugly. Words were exchanged and they asked us to leave or they would call the police. Being young and slightly crazy we told them to go ahead and then proceeded to make as much noise as possible going from cubicle to cubicle asking customers if they were lied to also. Well the police showed up and told us we had to leave but nothing other than that really happened. Oh not sure if it is still the same owners but it was the dealership in Chico California. I have to admit I am slightly vindictive myself.
I think that there has never been a more accurate statement. All week I have been driving a Chrysler 300M, a Pacifica, a Saab 9-3, and this weekend a Kia Optima.
The 300M and Pacifica have all these cute little electronic gadgets (auto-adjust seats tied to the key you use, seat warmers, etc.) At 60k, they all work alright. But when the car hits 120k, are all those things going to function. I sort of doubt it and heaven knows the cost of keeping them functional.
They didn't have to do that as it wasn't their fault. But, that was the kind of customer satisfaction that will go a long ways to keep me in the BMW fold, whenever I'm in the market again.
That's been my experience as well. One time I brought my Club Sport to my local BMW dealer for service right after I had run it in a TSD rally. I had drilled a hole in the LF wheel center cap in order to mount the speed sensor for the Timewise Rally Computer, and I hadn't got around to replacing it with my spare cap. Without asking, the dealer replaced the drilled cap with a new one at no charge. I truly appreciated the gesture, but it meant that I had to butcher another center cap for the next rally. Just recently I brought my wife's X3 in to have the transmission software reflashed. My service advisor told me that the update was not yet available on-line, but explained that he could remove the TCU, ship it Next Day Air to Woodcliff Lake, have it reflashed, and sent back over the weekend- if I didn't mind. Since we were provided with a X3 3.0 Sport for a loaner, I didn't complain. In fact, that's my main concern about buying the 2006 Charger SRT-8 I've been looking at. I just can't imagine that a Dodge dealer will offer an equivalent level of customer service.
Great story. I'm not a big fan of just straight out lying to honest folks trying to purchase a new vehicle. That's not the way I operate, but I don't have any problem jerking someone around who does the same to me.
I love what you guys did to that dealership. Must have been quite a scene! :P
Comments
You are the kind of customer that returns to me for a sale. Others won't give me the satisfaction. Maybe they think I'll say "I told you so". Of course, I never would.
Obviously, this isn't a practice that I use constantly, but only with certain types of customers. It's actually quite amusing.
Again, Isellhondas, you've NEVER lowballed anyone?
-Moo
Probably to the selling dealer. They are about 30 mins. away, depending on traffic, but I was pleased enough with the buying experience to give them a try. They are building a large new service center and have a new owner's clinic, so I'll see what impression I get when I attend that.
Are there customers who deserve this? Absoultly!
Just not my way of doing business.
Then you mark 'no survey'.
:P
-Moo
It could very well be that the type of person on this board is more likely to do so than the general public. If we didn't have a somewhat more interest in the subject we wouldn't spend as much time on these boards.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That miserable I Drive or whatever BMW calls that goofy knob is a great example of this!
If you didn't find the answer to that online you didn't look hard enough. Now do you need it is a very subjective question and only the buyer is truely qualified to answer it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Moo, what do you do if the customer agrees to your lowball offer right there and then.
I did that to a salesman once, and then enjoyed watching him squirm and wiggle out of it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah, that's what I eventually figured. He heard "RWD V8 Sedan" and all he had was that dinosaur. I'm sure loads of M5 buyers cross-shop the Crown Vic. :P
That stupid video doesn't really show anything.
I can show you what the guts of Dynamic Response are but the only way to actually understand it is have a salesguide whip you around a you turn at 30 mph with no body roll.
The pinion gear(curly looking thing) at the far left of the pictures is part of the system.
Better picture of it.
More Pictures here.
That is just the main part of one active sway bar though.
Just so happens that the place I bought my BMW from, also has a store close by that sells Chevies.
I got all the research done for him with MSRP...invoice....incentives, etc. Since the owner of the BMW store and the Chevy store attends my church, I gave him a jingle to prearrange a deal for both trucks. Usually, I don't deal with the owner to consumate a deal other than to get a price, as he hands me off to one of his sales managers. This time, however, he said to meet with him directly. He said he had something he wanted to show me.
We get to the dealership and lo and behold, the owner is standing right next to a brand spanking new 'vette Z06 in front of the dealership. Story behind it, two years ago, a guy put a deposit down on the Z06 in anticipation of it being produced. Well, it was finally produced, but this guy is also an employee of the local Ford manufacturing plant (ironic, isn't it). He had just recently taken the "buyout offer" from Ford. He just didn't want to stretch himself so thin at a time when his employment situation is in flux. So, he backed out of the deal.
Dealership owner asks if I want to go for a ride. Silly question, of course I do. Figuring he was going to do the dirving, I was surprised when he tells me to get into the driver's seat. We didn't go far....maybe 5 miles. But, WOW.....what a ride. I wasn't allowed to open it up....didn't matter. I couldn't have found enough road to even remotely touch the performance potential of the car. Most surprisingly was the ride/handling trade-off. I thought my BMW was good in that respect. The Z06 is in another universe in being telepathic in the way it handles, but much more supple than I expected. Acceleration is flat out wicked.
After pulling back into the dealership parking lot, the owner said I could buy it, if interested. The waiting list for these is stretched to over 12 months for these cars. Tough to say no, but at $70K, I would have to divest myself of some assets to get it. Had to pass. Didn't want to, though.
BTW.....my friend bought both the Tahoe and the Silverado. Had to drive the Tahoe back to his office while he drove the Sliverado. Gotta say, aside from what will no doubt be dismal MPG, and the size of it, the Tahoe is a very nice vehicle....nicely put together with good materials. That was a surprise. Nice steering, handling and braking. It drives like a much smaller vehicle.
Last night was the highlight of my holiday season, so far.
Yep, but your friend is probably going to also get one heck of a nice write-off this year on the Tahoe. Nothing like a write-off for Christmas!!
That looks like a complicated system for a car. It looks like something you'd expect to see on a jet fighter! Have you had many problems with it?
BTW, which one of those guys in the photos is you? Just trying to put a face with the name.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
We haven't had any problems with the Dynamic Response system besides some little clicky noises when crossing speed bumps at certain angles.
Apprently this makes the system cycle rapidly in anticipation of a sharp turn and so at low speed you can here a click-thunk noise.
Doesn't hurt anything but people have complained about it so I am sure it will show up as a problem on JD Powers/CR's surveys. :confuse:
It is just part of the normal operation of that system.
The predescsor to Dynamic Response which was the ACE(active cornering enhancment) Package had problems but all of those kinks have been worked out now.
Did you ask if he would work a GM deal on a slightly used, problematic STS that was giving battery problems?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But, as the dealership's owner said, GM doesn't do anything quickly or easily.
As it stands, BBB said they'd render a decision on the Caddy by 1/15. Cadillac then has 30 days to respond to whatever decision BBB comes up with. If I don't like their decision, I can then take legal action. Needless to say, I'm a ways away from getting this abomination resolved.
It was this type of an attitude that forced the American public to to start buying imports (from whom ever made them), now they have had there lunch and dinner eaten for quite sometime and they still don't get it.
It took a cold day in hell to get me away from GM (always owned GM until 2005) but they finally did it. :sick:
I know, I'm slow, many did it years ago.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
And they won't get it until the last one out turns off the lights.
What links? I provided no links. Maybe thats why they didn't explain how it works.
That stupid video doesn't really show anything.
Since I didn't provide a video I am not surprised.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I never said that. I said if you can't find it on the internet you didn't look very hard.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My post was in response to an earlier statement that a salesman was a necessity to explain a vehicles features. I have to admit that BR makes a good point about giving a physical demonstration of the Dynamic Response feature, and I would have had to have searched rather hard to find the fascinating pictures from 'CutawayCreations'. Even better are some pics they have of a cutaway version of a whole LR3.
I can't imagine any of my recent cars being as problematic as this alleged premium GM brand has been. Just as important, GM and it's dealer network just don't care.
Using my BMW as an example, I couldn't even fathom they'd be this obstinate if such issues existed on my 3 series. Even the most minute issue (and there really hasn't been anything much I'd even consider minute go wrong with the car) with my 3, gets immediate attention, response and satisfactory resolution. Same way when I had my TL. I did have some minor issues with my Mustang. Ford seemed to be in the same boat as GM. They just don't get the details down. Moreover, they don't care about customer satisfaction.
Design sells cars, but service and attention to detail is what keeps you coming back. This is where both Ford and GM fall down miserably. They want to right their ship? Fix their dealership service depts....get the details right. That would be a good start. GM's modus operandi? Deny the problems exist. And, delay long enough that any sort of reasonable customer satisfaction resolution can be salvaged.
While I've been driving my Mother's Caddy every day, the issue hasn't cropped up. OF course, I know as soon as I let it sit for a couple of days, I'm guaranteed it won't start. OnStar probably knows me by my first name by now (they're not much help either, except to call a tow truck...which takes hours). I've gone so far as to buy one of those portable battery packs I put in the trunk to jump it.
This takes me back to my younger days when I drove junk heeps...and the question of whether they'd start or not was a crap shoot every day. But, those were $200-$500 throwaway cars. This is a relatively new $50K car we're talking about. There's no remotely plausible excuse for this.
Didn't mean to rant on this, but I'm beyond frustrated.
BTW....Happy Holidays to all.....Ho! Ho! Ho!
May peace, health, and happiness fill your days, now and well into the future.
A friend of mine had a 04 3 series BMW, with check engine light problem. He took it in three times and the dealer would just reset the light. My friend hired a lawyer, and she sent the “last chance” letter to the dealer. This time the dealer took the issue a little more seriously, but hasn’t fixed the problem. The car was lemoned, and the dealer had to find a new BMW. After that, dealership’s GM asked my friend why he didn’t ask them to fix the problem without getting a lawyer, because it has cost them 5K in lawyer and transport fees. Amazing, isn’t it?
Another guy I know had been trying to lemon an E series MB for six months now with the same lawyer. MB is fighting tooth and nail. The lawyer said that MB fights the hardest when it comes to the lemon law.
As you can see, GM is not alone, nobody cares.
Also, these lowballs are kept to a specific group of people who just enjoy wasting salespeople's time. They have no real intention of buying at the moment, just kicking around and trying to see where everyone is at.
-Moo+
But, as an example, a few months ago, I was pulling out of my admittedly steep driveway in my 3. As luck would have it, the bottom of the front of the car scraped the pavement. While I thought that the "bumper rash" was something that was barely noticeable, my BMW dealer repainted the entire bumper for me at "no charge" while I was having some accessories installed....didn't even ask me how I did it, or if I wanted it done. They didn't have to do that as it wasn't their fault. But, that was the kind of customer satisfaction that will go a long ways to keep me in the BMW fold, whenever I'm in the market again.
MB's reputation has been in a downward spiral for awhile. They've got a lot of work to do. I've never bought one since they really don't offer anything I might want. But, based on what I've read/heard, I'd not venture into their showrooms until they get their act together.
My TL, while it didn't have any problems, was always washed and vacuumed whenever I got it back from having oil changes. Plus, it never took more than 20-30 minutes to have the dealership change the oil. Got Starbucks and pastries while I waited, too. While that's not neccessary, it was just part of the Acura dealership's drive to keep their customers happy.
My dealings with GM is on a whole other level (much lower). This is on their premium brand, too (Cadillac). They can't come remotely close to the customer satisfaction I got from what I experienced with both BMW and Acura.
I'm certain all car companies are loath to take any vehicle back for any reason. But, as you noted, at some point, enough is enough. If the dealer's service dept. or the manufacturer can't/won't fix their cars, eventually you have to just go the "lemon law" route.
In my case, my issues are before the BBB mediation process. I've never been through one of these. And, they certainly take their sweet time getting resolutions. But, that's probably why GM uses the process. I really don't want to hire a lawyer. Nor, do I relish the fact that it will come to that. But, I don't know that it won't be something I'll end up doing, eventually.
But, if someone comes into your showroom playing those games, I don't see an issue with you playing back to them. Why even waist your time, though. I think you guys say that the buyer who comes in claiming a low ball is legit, they don't turn into sales, anyway. Why not just "cut bait" on them?
As close as I can figure, considering there was a trade involved and a $1,500 incentive, we paid approximately $800 under Edmunds TMV.
They made a few bucks and I saved a pile of frogs compared to MSRP.
Most importantly it was painless!
2025 Forester Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport
My thinking is the best way to approach this is to contact my dealer and tell them I am eligible for supplier discount and rebates, and tell them the color and options we are looking for. From what I understand, the price is set, the rebates are set, and GM will reimburse the dealer for any transfer fees if they need to get a vehicle from another dealer?
So, is it about as close to a no brainer transaction as possible? Also, is it any different for a Saturn if we decide to wait until they firesale out the 2007 VUE's when the 2008's hit the showroom?
I'd like to buy from my local dealer, as I try to establish long term relationships when it comes to make purchases.
TIA.
Just telling you stories from the frontlines.
-Moo
However the spirit moves me. Call me vindictive. :shades:
Truth be told, these are normally phone conversations where you have someone offering ridiculous numbers and I respond in kind.
-Moo
Transfer fees? If the vehicle you want is a couple of hundred miles away, I can see where there might be some nominal transfer fee involved, but I'd reject any sort of transfer fee.
Saturn has a little bit of a different philosophy than GM's other brands. Since they are supposed to be a "no dicker...it's sticker" place, the amount of supplier discount isn't something I'm familiar with on that brand. That said, they sure are advertising rebates quite a bit.
I do know there are some incentives that GM is giving their dealers that aren't published for the Red Tag Sales Event. Ask the dealership about those, too.
Will there be great deals on the '07 VUEs next spring? I suppose that it depends on when the '08 will be released, but I would be very surprised if there wasn't some sort of rebate offered. When we bought my wife's '04 VUE in November of '05 (end of the model year), there was a $3500 rebate in place.
Good luck, and keep us posted!
(BTW, if you are deciding between the VUE and the Torrent, I'd go with the VUE --- we looked briefly at the Equinox in our search and found that the rear cargo area is affected greatly by the suspension towers intruding into that space. That, plus the difference in HP at the time - 250 for the VUE vs. 185 for the 'Nox - was a deciding factor. Oh, and the polymer panels. My own opinion, of course.)
To give you another perspective on BMW, my 3-series had a problem with the accessory mode from the day that I got it. The "low battery" icon would display after about five minutes and then the accessory mode would turn off. Also, the "rest" function on the heater never worked. And, the radio would not power up for more than two seconds with the car turned off. It was obvious to me that for some reason, the car thought the battery was low and was shutting down the accessories. Dealers #1 and 2 said it was normal operation. Dealer #3 agreed that it was a problem, ordered and replaced a junction box, and sent me on my way. After my first trip in the car, the same symptoms occurred. Dealer #3 finally replaced a sensor and fixed the problem. They had the car for a total of 18 days. Gosh, I wonder why a lot of high-end brands have a reputation for having electrical problems?
The real moral of this story is that two BMW dealers refused to even acknowledge that there was something wrong with my car. I finally got it fixed over the summer by going to the third dealer.
Because they:
1. convinced their customers that it's worth paying full price for experimental and unproven features.
2. use inferior suppliers to cut costs under competitive pressure.
Electrical systems are easiest to attempt to cut cost on, as there will always be a yahoo who will promise you better price for the wire that looks the same and when it works, works the same. Interior materials - easy to catch, weak engine, crappy transmission - easy to spot. Inferior relay/switch - not so much. When it works, it works just fine, when it fails, it can be always blamed on "complicated", "cutting edge" technology.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Many years ago, sometime in the early 90's, my brother was looking for a new car. He was not sure just what he wanted but found a 4X4 Rodeo that the dealer offered us for what turned out to be a very good price. Well it was before the internet, we were young and not sure if it was really that great of a deal. It was a pretty much stripped model and if I remember right it was a year end model. Well not knowing just how good the price was I called another dealer 70 miles away. I told him exactly what we were looking at and he assured me he had one just like it on the lot and could do better on the price. Well the next day I took off work, picked up my brother checkbook in hand and drove the 120 miles to the dealership. Well the dealer was waiting for us and took us for a test drive in one that was fully loaded. I expected and up sell but figured he had the one we had talked about the day before. Well we get back to the dealership and immediately into one of the many cubicles. He immediately came out with a piece of paper for my brother to sign. It said he agreed to purchase the car for so much a month. I stepped in and said one it was not the car he told us it was and two I wanted to know the price. He informed me that they did not have a car like the one he told me they did and they always negotiated from payment. I again asked for the price and then it got ugly. Words were exchanged and they asked us to leave or they would call the police. Being young and slightly crazy we told them to go ahead and then proceeded to make as much noise as possible going from cubicle to cubicle asking customers if they were lied to also. Well the police showed up and told us we had to leave but nothing other than that really happened. Oh not sure if it is still the same owners but it was the dealership in Chico California. I have to admit I am slightly vindictive myself.
I think that there has never been a more accurate statement. All week I have been driving a Chrysler 300M, a Pacifica, a Saab 9-3, and this weekend a Kia Optima.
The 300M and Pacifica have all these cute little electronic gadgets (auto-adjust seats tied to the key you use, seat warmers, etc.) At 60k, they all work alright. But when the car hits 120k, are all those things going to function. I sort of doubt it and heaven knows the cost of keeping them functional.
That is why I am still driving a simple beater.
OK, I'll bite, what is that and what is it supposed to do when it works?
My guess is it's probably something that most people don't need on a car. I don't have one and I've never been cold when I drive in the winter.
I'm not trying to argue with you, I just don't think cars need technology that doesn't work.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That's been my experience as well. One time I brought my Club Sport to my local BMW dealer for service right after I had run it in a TSD rally. I had drilled a hole in the LF wheel center cap in order to mount the speed sensor for the Timewise Rally Computer, and I hadn't got around to replacing it with my spare cap. Without asking, the dealer replaced the drilled cap with a new one at no charge. I truly appreciated the gesture, but it meant that I had to butcher another center cap for the next rally. Just recently I brought my wife's X3 in to have the transmission software reflashed. My service advisor told me that the update was not yet available on-line, but explained that he could remove the TCU, ship it Next Day Air to Woodcliff Lake, have it reflashed, and sent back over the weekend- if I didn't mind. Since we were provided with a X3 3.0 Sport for a loaner, I didn't complain.
In fact, that's my main concern about buying the 2006 Charger SRT-8 I've been looking at. I just can't imagine that a Dodge dealer will offer an equivalent level of customer service.
I love what you guys did to that dealership. Must have been quite a scene! :P
-Moo