Stories from the Sales Frontlines

tidester

Didn't some philosopher say that we should not live an "unexamined life"?

That was Socrates: "An unexamined life is not worth living."

Unfortunately, someone examined his and made him ingest hemlock.

In terms of the sales topic of this Forum, his sin was the equivalent of denying people the right to make their own decisions.

tidester, host

isellhondas

Except, bobst, some of these "prices paid" never happened.

jmonroe

...smart people learn from their mistakes.

Very true ........... and WISE people learn from the mistakes of others.

Isn't that the real benefit of paying attention as we go through life. I don't think anyone could live long enough to learn only from their own mistakes.

jmonroe

bobst

Yeah, that's right, but a lot of things people say are not true. We learn to be very skeptical about people's advice and comments.

However, as we learn to take some comments seriously and disregard others, it helps us to examine our lives, and that is a good thing.

marsha7

I would GENERALLY agree that in a negotiation, the one who cares the least/has the least to lose/has the $$$ to pay will often win, PROVIDING that they do not let their emotions get in the way...

The car buyer, assuming that their offer is within the reasonable realm of pricing, can often win just by walking out...the dealer, while not there to lose money, may meet the price of someone who is ready to walk, but they must be ready to walk...

If the buyer is drooling at the new Mustang GT, and the drool shows, the dealer knows they may have hooked a nice one...meaning that the buyer has let his emotions win over his logic, his negotiating power is reduced...

So many folks post (and I will assume some of it is true) that they received a call a week later, after they bought a car from another dealer, where the first dealer lowered their price to meet the buyer's offer...that means to me that the dealer could have met the price last week but chose not to, otherwise they could not meet it now if the offer was unreasonable...

Every business, car dealers especially, because of the size of the purchase, do not want you to leave once you have driven the car and say you want it...I believe that the buyer holds more cards than the seller, as you can always go to 10 other dealers, but the dealer may not have as many buyers come to the lot...

While not a hard and fast rule, the one willing to walk away from the deal almost always has the power position, unless they are trying to buy for less than the dealer paid, and no dealer will sell at a loss...

Than again, if it is the 31st of the month, and one more car will qualify for a massive bonus, maybe a dealer would sell a car at cost or a small loss if it placed their volume over the threshold for some massive bonuses...

Which only proves, as Roseanne Rosannadanna says, "It's always SOMETHING"...:):):):):)

cccompson

Well, if they're trying to charge her $250, my guess is that this involves an Ohio dealer.

This fee was capped by law for many years at $30 until 1999 when it was raised to $50. In '03 it went up again to $100. On July 1 it jumped to $250. This is but one price Ohioians are paying for having one party government for many years.

Although it is supposed to be a cap, Ohio stores tend to treat it as mandatory. And they do like to have it show up on the sales agreement. As others have said, she can threaten to walk or try to renegotiate the price to offset it. Another thing she could do is try to get something for it - a stereo upgrade, new tires, or whatever.

nyccarguy

I have a customer (Before you ask, I don't sell cars, I sell plumbing supplies) who is taking delivery of a 2007 Ford Shelby GT500 Mustang on Saturday. He fell in love with the car from the moment he read about it and went down to the dealer to see if he could get one. As most of you know, this is a limited production car and is very "hot" right now. He is a very easygoing guy. Basically walked into the dealership and said "Hi, my name is X and I'm looking to buy a Shelby GT500. Do you have any allocated?"

Salesman: "Yes we have a production slot for late December delivery. The price is MSRP + $20,000."

X: "Wow, that's great here's my deposit."

He's is actually thrilled that he's "only" paying $20K over sticker. He's heard of people paying much more and is just plain happy to get the car.

The dealer called him the other day to tell him the car was in. He went down to take a look at it. The salesguy says to him: "With such a rare car would be a shame to have it get stolen. Do you want us to put LOJack on the car for you? We usually charge people $900, but we'll give it to you for $450."

Now is this salesguy being just plain greedy (The dealership is making A LOT of $$$$$ on this deal) or is he just trying to make some extra bucks for the dealership which has probably been blowing cars out at under invoice for most of the year?

snakeweasel

He's is actually thrilled that he's "only" paying $20K over sticker. He's heard of people paying much more and is just plain happy to get the car.

There is a dealer near me that has one for $30K over sticker.

But to answer your question they are just trying to make more money selling him a lojack. Really can't blame him for that.

jmonroe

Now is this salesguy being just plain greedy ...

No. He's in business to make as much money as he can and because your customer has already demonstrated that he is willing to open his wallet, wide, the salesman is going to reach in and get all he can.

If you found an easy touch like this and maybe you have since he's your customer, wouldn't you do the same thing?

He's probably a big boy with the money to spend, so you ought to sell him everything you can. Afterall, if he can afford to pay a 20K premium for a car now because he can't wait until production increases, I can't imagine he couldn't be talked into buying a few more plumbing supplies. Especially when you tell him how easy his life would be with the wigits you're recommending.

It's only business.

jmonroe

nyccarguy

I do see what some of you are saying, but I did neglect to mention that he is financing part of the car so he isn't just some hotshot with loads of cash to blow.

I know it is capitalism at its finest, but that's not how I personally do business (I'm 4th Generation in a business started by my Great-Grandfather in 1900). No, I don't give away what I sell either. Everybody is entitled to make money. I have competitors who are bigger than me and sell a lot more things than I do at a higher price.

dino001

Wow - local (not always) friendly Tampa non-lux import dealers charge $599-$699 (I saw once $799 - why not $1599, or a $1 car and $19,999 "fee"?). Domestics range mostly $399-$499. General rule is the larger the volume, the larger fee, which really beats me, cause you would think it should be in reverse, if the fee is supposed to be related to the cost at least somehow (I know it is not, but if it was). Then you have screamer ads from the same guys with "below invoice" claims, of course. Actually, many luxury dealers are much more reasonable, usually $300-$350.

The problem got so bad that some dealers changed it to it advantage and advertise "you never pay dealer fee". Not many, though - mostly smaller domestics from outside of Metro area.

jmonroe

I do see what some of you are saying,…

You’re darn right…….did you think you were talking to a bunch of dopes on this board?

...but I did neglect to mention that he is financing part of the car so he isn't just some hotshot with loads of cash to blow.

Makes no difference. Since I’m going to assume that this customer knows you longer than he knows the car salesman, I feel he owes it to you to finance more for your products.

Fair is fair, right?

jmonroe

jlawrence01

Now is this salesguy being just plain greedy (The dealership is making A LOT of $$$$$ on this deal) or is he just trying to make some extra bucks for the dealership which has probably been blowing cars out at under invoice for most of the year?

Let's see. You have a car that is rare and in HIGH demand. In other words, it is a car that would attract a lot of attention and be on every car thief's hit list. The dealership offers a very effective anti-theft device at a very reasonable price. Why is that being greedy?

If you are selling a contractor $25k in pipe wrenches, threading machines, copper plumbing fittings, see-snakes and the like, is it greedy to ask the guy if he would like to also purchase an on-site storage box to protect it from theft?

snakeweasel

Afterall, if he can afford to pay a 20K premium for a car now because he can't wait until production increases, I can't imagine he couldn't be talked into buying a few more plumbing supplies.

IIRC production will be and will remain very, very limited.

tayl0rd

I think it's 8,000 per year for two model years. It's ridiculous for people to pay such outrageous markups on the GT500. The Shelby GT Mustang will be much more rare at only 1,000 per year for, IIRC, 1 model year and it's not going to cost anywhere near as much as the GT500 with it's markup. If there is a chance of them becoming collectible in 20+ years, guess which one will fetch more money. Not the GT500.

There's one born every minute.

[edit]
Almost forgot about the Shelby GT-H with its mere 500 produced.

british_rover

450 dollars is proabably pretty close to their true cost on that Lojack. 900 dollars installed for that is crazy though. I think our cost to have lojacked installed on non Rovers is 350 and then on rovers it is 400(??) or maybe 450 as they are a little bit more complicated.

jmonroe

IIRC production will be and will remain very, very limited.

I was unaware of this, so I guess I can’t fault a guy for getting something he just has to have. Who knows, if he didn’t get it now he might have to go through life without one.

I bet the dealers love the idea of Ford throwing them a bone to make up for weak sales with their other models.

You would think, with sales as they are with Ford, they would increase production but not so much as to saturate the market, in an attempt to sell more cars.

jmonroe

british_rover

While the Shelby GT500 is going to be very low production they are making a couple of special edition mustangs every year.

That is how they are going to keep production up without saturating the market. Instead of making a whole lot of one or two special editions they are going to make a limited number of many special edition mustangs.

When it is the only hot car you have what else are you going to do.

Oh yeah they could make some more exciting cars... :sick:

Nah lets just make 10 different special edition mustangs till we completly dilute the brand. :confuse:

robr2

Oh yeah they could make some more exciting cars...

Now now now - don't bite the hand the ultimately feeds you!!

robr2

Are you a mfrs rep or do you work for a wholesaler in the city?

wlbrown9

Memphis has doc fees that probably average $199 - $299 at most dealers. Last GM we bought under GSM and the doc was printed on the invoice and they discounted it that much off the price to bring the real cost down to the GSM price.

One thing I remember some of the sales guys discussing is that DOC fee is funds directly for the dealer and salesman does NOT get any comission on that part of the deal. So, these days a small deal with say $400-$500 profit, a $300-$500 DOC fee would really bump the profit up quite a bit. I know the dealers have to make some money to stay in business, but this is just another way they play the game to try and get some extra $$$ at the last minute after the deal is already agree to.

british_rover

I don't have anything to do with Ford. Ford may own Land Rover but they are pretty hands off for the most part. Land Rover, Jag and Volvo all kind of work together on their own with very little imput from Ford.

graphicguy

A few years ago, my sister (who used to work for Ford) was looking to buy a new car. She wanted something sporty. Since she got the Ford employee discount, she thought she could buy any Ford she wanted with it.

Well, I went with her to look at Thunderbirds. Found a local dealership that had about a dozen of them. Mind you, this was right after Ford said they were discontinuing the T-Bird (most recent iteration).

We were perusing the selection and found the dealership had an ADM sticker attached to all of the T-Birds. I told my sister to disallow that sticker....and to also ignore the MSRP sticker as she could buy under the Ford plan (well under invoice). Also at the time, Ford had some hefty incentives on the T-Bird to clear them out.

Sales person approached us as we were looking. We take one out for a test drive. We were both lukewarm on the test drive. I felt the car was way too small on the inside for as big as the car was on the outside. But, it wasn't my choice. It was her's.

Anyway...fast forward to after the test drive. We get into the sales person's cube. Sales person, before even asking my sister if she liked the car, begins writing up the deal. ....at the MSRP plus ADM amount. My sister informs the sales person that she's a Ford employee and qualifies for the employee discount. Sales person stops writing immediately and informs us that the T-Bird doesn't qualify for Ford's employee discount. I chuckled and asked him about the incentives. He said it didn't qualify for the incentives, either.

My sister and I both looked at each other stunned. We knew we weren't going to make a deal at this dealership at this point. But, out of curiousity, I started questioning the salesperson....

GG..."you know the T-Bird is being discontinued, right?"
salesperson..."it is?....that's the first I've heard of that"
GG...."you do know that the T-Bird has been a big disappointment for Ford?"
salesperson....."we've sold a ton of them with the ADM"
GG...."here's the Ford printout from the employee WEB site showing the employee price...less the incentives. You do know that you've got a bunch of these hanging on your lot".
salesperson...."let me see if I can get my manager to cut the ADM off the price".
GG...."that's not going to work...thanks for your time, but I don't think we will be buying a T-Bird from your dealership".
salesperson...."you won't find a better deal anywhere...these are hot cars"
GG..."yeah....OK....hope that line of thinking works out for you guys....bye".

I remember driving past that same dealership for at least 2-3 months and seeing all of the T-Birds still sitting there.

Here was a case where the dealership had absolutely no idea what the market was for the particular cars they were selling.

jmonroe

Nah lets just make 10 different special edition mustangs till we completly dilute the brand.

Any guesses as to how long they can survive with this mentality?

Where did all of their leadership go?

Although I was not a Ford customer (until 2005 I never owned anything other than GM) it saddens me to see an American car company run into the ground like they have been.

I hope this kind of mentality stops before America is out of the car manufacturing business altogether! :sick:

jmonroe

graphicguy

j....while I don't disagree with you about propagating different iterations of the same model, I do think Ford has been very successful with the Mustang by doing so.

Througout the years, they've always had "special editions" to prop up sales of the mark...and sold a boatload of them.

Just off the top of my head, there has been BOSS, MACH, Shelby, Cobra, GT, Pony, convertible editions, and probably others that I just can't recall.

Overall, Ford and GM (I'll throw Chrysler in there as they aren't doing themselves any favors) really do seem lost. The core of America's technology and manufacturing might, the car business, is being diluted...at an alarming rate. How and if they can regain their leadership is looking pretty dim. It looks like they're throwing in the towel to foriegn brands.

Kirstie_H

Your input & perspective about the domestic manufacturing business would be valued in Tariffs to Help Domestic Manufacturers?

british_rover

Oh god no it wouldn't. That thread is one of the most painful on the board. The day of the diesel one might possibly be able to beat it out for pure pain.

I can't seem to untrack either of those threads it is like god is punishing me.

Kirstie_H

Aw c'mon!! You're no fun. You spilled the beans, and now I won't ever have anyone new to play with over there.

God should smite you for that comment alone :-\

british_rover

It wouldn't be so bad if not for certiain people who cannot concede they are wrong and/or actually use commonsense and logic along with a little bit of basic macro-economic theory.

Not going to mention any names.

Kirstie_H

No need. Aforementioned common sense and logic can help with identification

mazda6iguy

Well, if they're trying to charge her $250, my guess is that this involves an Ohio dealer.

Yes, an Ohio dealer. But I overstated the doc fee. Turns out it was $200 not $250. Anyway, we picked up the car this morning. 2006 PT Cruiser Touring Edition Linen Gold color w/ sirius sat radio. One thing I wish I would have brought up before she signed the paperwork is having the dealer pay for 1 more year of Sirius. This was a used car, and there is still some time left on the contract from the previous owner (probably Thrifty RAC). Sales guy said it might run out in two weeks.

isellhondas

Now, you're not talking about the guy who changed his username are you?

british_rover

Shhh I said no names...

and actually I was thinking of someone else but he fits too

plekto

Let's see...

GT500 coupe(convertable is ugly, imo) is roughly $65K(40K+options(never ever seen a stripped-down model - no, they come loaded, every last one of them)+20K extra he paid).

http://www.saleen.com/s281_sc_msrp.htm
DUH. I'd have spent $60K on a Saleen. Of course, there's a wait for one while they build it(no surcharge, either), but if he has that much money, that shouldn't be a problem.

http://www.saleen.com/s281_e_msrp.htm
Or 75K for this(almost all of the options listed aren't really required). 11 second quarter mile and handles very neutral from the reviews. Saleen sweats the details of actual racing a lot more than Shelby - so much so that with a couple of minor differences, this is a professional racecar.

Oh well, his money - I'd not have said no to his money either

tayl0rd

Actually, the GT500 has almost nothing to do with Shelby American. Ford bought a license from Shelby American to use the Shelby name on the GT500. Carrol's input on the GT500 was minimal despite what J. Mays says. The Shelby GT-H and Shelby GT come out of Shelby Automotive. The GT500 rolls down the same assembly line as the rest of the Mustangs.

Shelby Automotive buys Mustang GTs from Ford and upfits them to GT-Hs and Shelby GTs at their facility.

But anyway, this has nothing to do with the sales frontline. Sorry host!

snakeweasel

Thanks a lot now I have to go there and see what wacky economics theories are being presented (maybe by you? :P ).

dhamilton

That tariff thread is an exercise in futility

tidester

maybe by you?

We will neither confirm nor deny.

tidester, host

kdhspyder

It's a blast ... it gets resurrected about every 6 months under another name.

Stupid me I get hooked every dam time too..>>/////*> J

british_rover

Bah not likely. I took those classes in college and actually showed up to most of them.

snakeweasel

Well I have a major in the subject maybe we should talk

british_rover

I said I showed up for the classes I didn't say I stayed awake. :shades:

imidazol97

I just received a letter today from my representative, Setzer, about the redlight bill on the governor's desk but she ignored the part of my email about the doc fees. She's been in there for many years, so she must be part of the problem. Probusiness for 10 years; now the tables have turned.

nyccarguy

robr2, jmonroe, & jlawrence:

jmonroe: He doesn't finance anything from us. Pays his bill at the end of the month :P

jlawrence: An on site storage box would actually promote theft. Some unscrupulous urban dweller sees a shiny new box in a truck or on a jobsite and (unless there is an armed guard) it is gone.

robr2: I work for a small plumbing supply house in The Bronx. Why do you ask?

Only reason I asked the question in the first place is that I don't believe in LoJack or Any type of aftermarket alarm for that matter. If they want you car bad enough, they'll get it.

nyccarguy

Where money is no object, I know somebody who works at a highline japanese car dealership on a small island. This person walked into the dealership last year for a receptionist job and they decided to train this person for sales.

It is amazing to me how some people really don't care about the cost of their car. This person deals mainly with leases and sells the cars at full sticker or sometimes up to $2000 over + approves people for Tier 1 credit and charges them the Tier 5 rate.

british_rover, I'm sure many of your clients don't care either, they just want the car.

jmonroe

jmonroe: He doesn't finance anything from us. Pays his bill at the end of the month

There …….. that’s what I mean, the money he saves by not financing (so he could buy more of your stuff), he’s using to buy a car and at a premium price to boot.

I guess cars are a lot more fun to have than plumbing supplies. Maybe you could add some shiny, upscale, on wheels, products to your arsenal, that might interest him.

Don’t give up, he’s got it, it’s up to you to get more of it.

jmonroe

snakeweasel

I guess cars are a lot more fun to have than plumbing supplies.

Spoken like someone who has never driven plumbing supplies down a winding country road at 90MPH. :P

mazda6iguy

Is it possible to get a sales sticker (mulroney label) reprints from a manufacturer. Friend of mine bought a used PT cruiser the other day, and of course, you dont get the original sticker. I would like to know if there is a way to do this, or like GM cars is there a sticker somewhere on the car that lists the option codes (her old car chevy cavalier had a sticker on the bottom side of the trunk lid.)? It would be interesting.

suvshopper4

With Lojack, are the chances of theft recovery better?

If so, the cost sounded OK to me. A reasonable investment.

But with a high-performance car, you might not want it back when probably it has been over-revved and beat up.

jb_turner

LoJack will NOT prevent a carfrom being stolen.