Thanks to all the advices about giving a second chance and being direct right then and there to the dealer about what went wrong.
Next time I step in a dealership I'll handout a piece of paper saying what constitutes a deal breaker and what I don't want to put up with. If they're serious about selling a car to me I hope they'll come to their senses and behave professionally.
What is listed below is front paperwork. There are all kinds of other forms to be signed in the business office.
Purchase Order
Is the purchase order the same document as the retail installment sale contract? If a buyer wants to pay for the car in full (in cashier check), does he have to sign the retail installment sale contract?
I personally think being closed on Sunday is a good thing - and it is true that retail workers are treated like serfs in this country, which is one reason customer service is so terrible compared to years ago. I could put off my purchases until Monday if necessary.
However, I do admit picking up my last car on a Sunday - it is by far the slowest day of the week for the dealership, but by buying my car on a Sunday, the F&I guy doesn't work that day, so I didn't have to sit through his dog and pony show.
Are you stating that there is no room for improvement in any retail job? Everything is working as intended and nothing will ever change?
No just that every job has its issues, retail being that the hours are more going to be to 9:00 PM or later at night and on the weekends. Its the nature of the beast. Since you choose to take the job (no one put a gun to your head) you should be prepared to work the schedule required for the job.
I used to manage retail locations and it bothered me no end when people came to me looking for a job, knowing the hours we were open, and then complained about working evenings and weekends.
You can't just say that's a retail job and that's the way it is.
Well unless more traditional jobs (as in 9-5 jobs) change their schedule so that the tens of millions that work those jobs are off during the day then working nights and weekends will be the way it is. That is unless you don't want to make those sales.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You have to remember that SOME people (not me) think that retail workers are basically serfs that are low on the food chain and don't even deserve a day off each week.
Just to clarify I never said that people in retail don't deserve a day or two off each week, just that you should be prepared to work more non traditional hours (outside the 9-5 set). That includes working weekends (so you take a weekday off big deal.)
By the way, few accountants I know work many Sundays.
You must know few accountants, I and every accountant I know will work almost every day from late January to April 15th.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Stopped by the BMW/Mini dealership today (They were closed). The 2007 BMW X5 seven passenger has caught my eye from the TV commercials and I wanted to see one. Well, there were no X5's to be found on the lot except a few used regular X5's.
I was amazed at how many Mini Coopers that were available. I walked up to about 5 of them (convertibles, Cooper S and regular Mini's) and everyone that I walked up to were all 2006's. Tomorrow is 2007 and almost their whole Mini inventory will be a year old... how did that happen?? Too committed to MSRP? Who knows? I was very surprised to see the volume of Mini's.
Mark156
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
I was amazed at how many Mini Coopers that were available. I walked up to about 5 of them (convertibles, Cooper S and regular Mini's) and everyone that I walked up to were all 2006's. Tomorrow is 2007 and almost their whole Mini inventory will be a year old... how did that happen?? Too committed to MSRP? Who knows? I was very surprised to see the volume of Mini's.
Were you at The BMW Store? I was up there yesterday looking for a new toy. FWIW, since the 2007 Mini is "all new"; many dealers accepted an extra allotment and are selling them for @$1K off sticker. My wife really wants one but we're going to wait until the Louisville dealership opens. Still, I really like the JCW GP- but I can't justify adding a two-seater to the fleet right now.
...but we're going to wait until the Louisville dealership opens.
Didn't know Louisville was getting a Mini dealer... I consider the lack of a dealer anywhere in the state to be an oversight, although I still see a handful of Minis on the roads.
"Since you choose the job (no one put a gun to your head)"... Just brought back a memory of my days as a school bus driver when a student actually DID put a gun to my head. Off topic I know, but by the way, does anybody know where I can get below invoice on a yellow 66 passenger SUV?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Next time I step in a dealership I'll handout a piece of paper saying what constitutes a deal breaker and what I don't want to put up with
Now, that's probably rude. There is a line, not even so fine, between being assertive (knowing what you want, knowing what you can and cannot do and being able to express it in respenctful, but unoffending manner) and being plain rude. This piece of paper you would hand out may be taken as sign of disrespect, suspicion and more important insecurity from your part. Being prepared for the worst does not mean behaving like you expect it before it even happens and swinging a sledgehammer at first encounter .
Last time, newbee almost got hosed by the F & I guy, from the sound of it. Just 'cause the sales weenies said all was well & initialed the paper didn't mean the deal's final.
2007 MY Coopers are not being launched untill later in the year so that is why there are still 2006 MY cars on the lot. There are usually 8 or 9 MINI Coopers on the lot of my Local MINI dealership at any one time normaly.
Didn't know Louisville was getting a Mini dealer... I consider the lack of a dealer anywhere in the state to be an oversight,
As I understand it, Mini has pretty detailed requirements for dealerships, which has discouraged more than one potential dealer. Swope is building a new Lexus showroom, and the Mini store will open in the old Lexus digs.
I think giving them a piece of paper would be rude too but I have to admit I give them all the speech. I tell them what I expect and things that tend to piss me off and will kill the deal immediately. I try and do this in the most polite manner I can but I think it helps them know where I stand. I don't care if the boss is in a good mood, how good I look in the car or if the car is "hot". I just want to know about the car (9 times out of 10 I know more than the dealer) and what they will sell it for. I explain that any fee that shows up after we make a deal is a deal breaker. That being said I do try and treat the salesman well. I know he has a job to do but it is my checkbook in the end.
When we bouht our Acura in 2003, we offered $20500 OTD and the sales manager agreed. However, the F&I lady tried to change it to $20501. Of course, we refused to accept the one dollar increase and we started to walk out, but she quickly changed her mind.
We have to be careful around these F&I people, don't we?
$1? $1 is hardly worth the time to type in the change, so she much have been trying something else in addition.
I almost walked out of the local liquor store(getting some bubbly for tonight's emidnight celebration) over a 25 cent charge card fee.(it's not allowed actually by Visa or MC for them to charge a fee no matter how small the charge) - so I can understand as well.
It's like when I was shopping last month for a used car. I couldn't find a single dealer in Los Angeles who didn't try to not a little, but blatantly - to rip me off.
Not $100 in extra fees, but $2000 or $4000. Just insane B.S. that made me walk out of almost every dealer. They were selling crash-damaged cars as brand new or printing up their "blue book" stickers on the cars a year off(ie - flat out lying/entering in fradulent data on the computer and printing it out). Or they would try to sneak in a 30-40% interest rate. Half of them tried that, actually. Or adding a year in payments with a straight face - on a lease, no less. I'd point it out to the manager and he'd tell me my math was off.
The greed and lack of any morals... it was apalling. Much worse than even ten years ago. Perhaps it's Los Angeles, but I doubt if it's isolated, given human nature.
So I ended up buying a used beater that I can use until next fall when I can pay cash at an auction.(here in L.A., it's very easy to get into the same auctions - that's one plus I guess)
I agree that some honest car salesman out there will find it offensive if he is given a piece of paper with all the assumptions about his bad behavior.
The problem is those honest salesmen are hard to find. In my own experiences, it really doesn't matter what I said, some salesmen still pretend not to understand/hear what I said (e.g., I said many times that I don't want their financing they don't seem to get that, or I want a particular car, they still try to show me another car) and they tried to steer the deal their way. Therefore, I thought of handing something to them to read. I thought it may be harder to ignore what is written and they should take my words seriously.
Even if somebody finds a good salesman, the deal can still be killed by the F&I people (this is what happened to me in the last deal). I still have a good feeling with the salesman I first contacted because he understands my seriousness. But, I couldn't help him to earn his commission on the deal because other people broke it.
I fully understand the dealership's desire to make more money on the deal and I don't have a problem with that. But, they could have done that during the negotiation. They want to take over my financing, they want to sell extra services, I'm OK with negotiating all that. If both sides agree with the terms of the deal than there should be no problem.
What I have a problem with is their method of taking advantages of customers when the customers are the least suspected (in the F&I office)). The second problem is that their attitude towards customers if the deal doesn't go their way. Where else in the retail business a customer has to suffer such bullying/intimidation/trickery when he's trying to spend a lot of money (at least > 10K for a good car)?
My intention to state all the things I need/prefer in written form is in fact going to save the time of the people at the dealership and my time. I've seen how they're whining about losing their time when I walked out because of something they did.
So I ended up buying a used beater that I can use until next fall when I can pay cash at an auction.(here in L.A., it's very easy to get into the same auctions - that's one plus I guess)
Can you elaborate more on the auctions that a private buyer can participate?
I used carfax and many vehicle records show that the vehicles were sold at an auction in the Pacific Region. I wonder where those auctions are.
I searched this forum and found Manheim Auctions (http://www.manheim.com/) but my understanding is that only registered dealers can get in.
" think that is when the Kelly Blue Book values adjust to reflect the changes in model years... when an '07 now becomes a year old, an '06 becomes 2 years old and so on.... ??? "
it depends on the car. car models become a year old when the next model year comes out (or so i've been told). for instance, my 07 elantra won't be on kelly untill the 08s come out.
I searched this forum and found Manheim Auctions (http://www.manheim.com/) but my understanding is that only registered dealers can get in.
Ask around and find someone with a dealers license I know of a couple of private dealers (people who mostly buy and fix up wrecked cars) who have them. The usually charge $100-200 to go with you to buy a car. Not bad considering their time and the cost of the license. It can save quite a lot of money but it is a cash deal.
May I add the following documents may also be required to sign:
1.Transfer Tag/Title if you have a trade-in you will sign twice in FL 2.Information admitting you have insurance=Insurance Papers 3. Retail Sales Agreement
My best buying experiences have been at Rick Case Honda and Toyota of Hollywood, Florida. Worst at Reed Nissan in Orlando, Fl. The 6'3 300 lb business manager cursed me out so I cursed him out right back. I don't think he was used to someone not being afraid of him so I was not so nicely asked to leave. I am a F 5'8 college educated. Some salesman like some customers are very very abusive. He took it there and I left it there. It gets ugly because as someone mentioned above, we have emotions and emotions get involved because MONEY is involved. Any situation involving money has the potential to be cantankerous.
I learned as I bought and traded more cars. It's a business. Don't make it personal. If they want your business they want it if not oh well. Next! For example. I wanted to trade in my Element. I supposedly was 4,000 upside down. Yeah, whatever. My own financing stated I could only advance 125%. I went to many dealerships test drove because I was interested in several hatchbacks. My favorite the Yaris. Second, Aveo, Third, Accent, Fourth Fit and Fifth, Versa, last Focus. The Toyo dealership 2 miles up the road from my house said "Sorry, lady...we can't do that deal." They worked the numbers it did not work for them and they tried to sell me a Scion TC. Um, no. As I was getting in my car they said "Hey, lady we are trying to help you out here." I laughed. Honda dealership in my town wanted me to sign for a 07 civic with the trade-in $20,000. Um no! In the meantime, I was inches away from signing for the Aveo. Nice $2500 rebate, final numbers $15,000 for the base model including my trade. The Aveo interior is awesome but the manual shifter is choppy and the ride well I wanted to sleep on it. I drove 2 hours South and found a Toyo dealership in Hollywod, Florida. Took time but they made the deal work at my numbers. payment reduced by $100 gas mileage doubled. I had been laughed out of 3 dealerships, Nissan, Honda and Toyo.
Bottom line: If they want to deal they will. If they don't they don't. What can you do? Find a salesman and a dealership that will sell you the car you want at the price you are willing to pay. Why get nasty?
Using all the powers granted an Edmunds subscriber I ran trade-in figures on 2006 Solara SLE V6 with MSRP $28,251 and 13,250 miles at clean condition (since it wasn't detailed) to be $18,940. I then did the 2006 Vette 1LT base MSRP $47,450 on dealers lot with 6,500 miles to be $39k retail. I offered $22k cash and the Solara with clear title (I bought it new) for the Vette. He countered with $27k difference. I calculated again this time throwing in the print out of a 2007 new 1LT Vette # 00065305670 on ebay for $43,845 400 miles away. GM threw his hands up and said no way can that dealer on ebay be selling so cheap and countered with $26k difference. I left Ramey Chevrolet and ran the numbers again at home still finding the same $22k difference. Trade-in for mine and retail for his. There is no other option besides lay down and that's just not me. Is there a minimum a dealer must screw you out of or all the other dealers poke sport at him? Sooner or later he'll run out of chumps that will finance a depreciating asset to the hilt and he will have to deal with cash buyers. 12% interest and $3/gal gas will suit me just fine. Lets see what 2007 has to offer.
Off topic I know, but by the way, does anybody know where I can get below invoice on a yellow 66 passenger SUV?
Yeah just stop by your local school transportation company. Oft times they have old ones for sale. Many, if not all, states limit how old and/or how many miles a school bus can have to be able to transport students. We use to pick them up cheep strip out the seats and use them to carry gear.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Did you add taxes and fees on the eBay deal? Just curious. It may also be the market (I heard final prices on Corvettes vary dramatically from place to place), your Solara value not as high as you or Edmunds may think. Dozens of reasons are possible. Bottom line - the guy thought he can get more for the car than you offered so he didn't sell it. Let him have it and pay more interest to the bank...
Seems to me edmunds may be a bit shy on the vette, and not far off on your solara. I'm thinking $23k difference is more like it. BUT, that's before taxes, tags, etc. I don't know the tax rate where you live or if your state gives you a tax credit on your trade, so I can't help with those numbers. I figured, though, that you are probably looking at another $2k for that stuff, so $25k might be the target, which is pretty darned close to that $26k number the dealer hit you with.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I live in Virginia and was buying in West Virginia (30 miles away). I pay my own ttl. Dealers are few and far between here so they think they can set the price. That's why I said "all I have is money", they have a shiny car. I give them my best cash offer with title in hand. If Ramey wants to play games they play alone and still "all I have is money" and they still have the shiny car.
In the only new car buying experience I've had, the finance guy was fine...very straight-forward once we were on the same page. The car was one of those supplier discount deals so not a lot of negotiation there. They didn't have it on the lot and they wanted $150 to go get it from another dealer an hour away. I said for $75/hr I will go get it, and I also wasn't excited about some 17 y/o kid flooring this car for 60 miles. As it turned out, they split it with me and flat beded it back. I thought that was fine and fair. Then the F&I guy told me my credit was good and it wouldn't be a big deal to finance. I said no cArp, I wanted him to beat my rate, which I gave him. He said fine, called back 2 hrs later and said it was all good. He did his job where he told me about each package but didn't obnoxiously push it. I think part of this is because the supplier purchase thing leaves some money on the table for them, but we got our target price, so everyone was happy.
Can you elaborate more on the auctions that a private buyer can participate?
There are several "consumer" auctions in SoCal (not Manheim) that allow individuals to purchase a car. I have attended them a few times in the early 90s and pretty much concluded that they were selling more junk than quality used cars.
I will admit that it is fun ... but I generally prefer to go to the police auctions in Chicagoland.
I stopped by another Ford dealer today so my son could check out the Mustangs(yet again). They had five GT 500s on the showroom floor- all with a $20,000 ADM charge. More power to them if they can collect that, but it looks like the market for those cars isn't quite as hot as you would think. Anyway, for $60K I'm thinking M Coupe or Cayman. Or a Charger SRT-8 AND a Miata.
Robr2, our local Cadillac dealership is closed on Sunday's but has a security guard there watching. He will not bother you as he is just there for safety/security. I stopped by there too to look at the new DTS. They had 3 in front under the porte cochere. All three had after market grilles, chrome wheels, clothe tops, white and gold striped tires... $55,000 list ($47,000 before glitzing); just too much "stuff" to ruin the looks of the car.
We also have a new Toyota dealership way out by the mall that just opened. It was not too far from the BMW/Mini dealership I stopped by yesterday. The reason that I'm bringing it up as I have never seen so many cars at a car lot before. The road is slightly raised in front of the dealership so you can get a good view of the inventory. I swear there must have 400-500 cars on the lot including the huge inventory in the back of the building.
Happy Motoring! Mark156
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
I have read many, many posts here – but not all. So please forgive me if this has already been said?
I have worked in distribution for many years. I have worked with many salespeople. I have bought many new cars – in my past 35 years.
The key difference I see between the typical salesperson in “other” areas of distribution ( HVAC, Paper Products, Electrical & Power Tools \ Building Supplies and Fasteners ) where I have worked is that these sales people are typically trying to establish a long term sales relationship with a potential customer. They can only survive if their customers become & remain repeat customers. The largest $$ individual item typically sold in ( residential ) HVAC or Power Tools, for example, is in the range of $1,000 to $10,000 – and larger $$ sales are typically of multiple and \ or highly specialized units.
Car salespeople seem ** GENERALLY ** to view each potential sale in isolation. Since ( realistically ) the next sale to the same customer is very likely to be ** AT LEAST ** a year in the future.
[ One exception here would be the fleet sales person \ department. I’ll ignore them here. ]
This sort of very short term view, I think, makes it much more likely that car salespeople ( and dealership GMs, and Sales Managers and Finance people ) will try tactics that would virtually guarantee that a customer would never even consider doing business with that salesperson and \ or dealership again in the future. With an expectation that they would not have an opportunity to sell a car to the same person again for a long time anyway. Even if the customer decided to buy the same brand, next time. They thus see very little to lose – and possibility to gain $$s today. Losing a possibility of potential future sales appears essentially of no concern. Normally, usually, generally.
Not really an accusation – more of an observation. Just my $0.02 worth ( if that ) . . . - Ray Of limited understanding, certainly . . .
Car salespeople seem ** GENERALLY ** to view each potential sale in isolation. Since ( realistically ) the next sale to the same customer is very likely to be ** AT LEAST ** a year in the future.
That line of reasoning makes sense, especially as there seem to be many dealerships that constantly churn the sales staff, which gives no incentive for the salespeople to focus long term.
However, the counter argument would be that although the dealership may not need to care about repeat sales to any one customer, they almost certainly need to care about repeat sales to the demographic area that they cover. Unless they are in an area with a very high density of potential customers, which is also constantly transient and being replenished, then reputation must count for something.
Personally, I think that a lot of the strange sales tactics we see come from type 'A' personalities with runaway egos (maybe like madmanmoo's collegue, or was it thenebean's?).
definitely madmanmoo's. fortunately, i worked with some great, honest people. never had that skeevy stuff going on at our dealership. we were very straight forward. would we try to make money? yes. but there was no bullcrap to wade through. everything was out in the open. we've all gone our seperate ways now - no one is left there from when i was there over a year ago...the ford store has a lot of the same people though...
so, any new SALES stories from our good friends here?
Well the dealerships I speak of are not in bad areas. These are all in safe suburban neighborhoods.
One is a large Ford, Saab, Volvo, Mazda dealership that has a 4' chain link fence around their 10 or so acres. They have an off-ramp on one side, commuter rail on the back, and residential on the other side. The main road has no parking. They swing closed a short gate every night and have a security guard in a vehicle basically telling folks the dealership is closed and to come back in the AM.
Another is a large Toyota/Scion/Jaguar dealership encircled by a highway, an on ramp and a main road. They gate off the new cars at night and a guard is there again telling everyone they are closed and to come back in the AM.
Others just have a short gate or block the entrance with used cars but it's tough to park in the area so it's not easy to browse unless you're willing to walk.
I guess they want to protect their inventory from vandalism and theft.
Others just have a short gate or block the entrance with used cars but it's tough to park in the area so it's not easy to browse unless you're willing to walk.
That's usually what I find. Although, if I were a determined thief, I don't see how riding over a curb is going to deter me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Comments
Next time I step in a dealership I'll handout a piece of paper saying what constitutes a deal breaker and what I don't want to put up with. If they're serious about selling a car to me I hope they'll come to their senses and behave professionally.
What is listed below is front paperwork. There are all kinds of other forms to be signed in the business office.
Purchase Order
Is the purchase order the same document as the retail installment sale contract? If a buyer wants to pay for the car in full (in cashier check), does he have to sign the retail installment sale contract?
However, I do admit picking up my last car on a Sunday - it is by far the slowest day of the week for the dealership, but by buying my car on a Sunday, the F&I guy doesn't work that day, so I didn't have to sit through his dog and pony show.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well I have known some to work late into the night to get a sale out.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No just that every job has its issues, retail being that the hours are more going to be to 9:00 PM or later at night and on the weekends. Its the nature of the beast. Since you choose to take the job (no one put a gun to your head) you should be prepared to work the schedule required for the job.
I used to manage retail locations and it bothered me no end when people came to me looking for a job, knowing the hours we were open, and then complained about working evenings and weekends.
You can't just say that's a retail job and that's the way it is.
Well unless more traditional jobs (as in 9-5 jobs) change their schedule so that the tens of millions that work those jobs are off during the day then working nights and weekends will be the way it is. That is unless you don't want to make those sales.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Just to clarify I never said that people in retail don't deserve a day or two off each week, just that you should be prepared to work more non traditional hours (outside the 9-5 set). That includes working weekends (so you take a weekday off big deal.)
By the way, few accountants I know work many Sundays.
You must know few accountants, I and every accountant I know will work almost every day from late January to April 15th.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I was amazed at how many Mini Coopers that were available. I walked up to about 5 of them (convertibles, Cooper S and regular Mini's) and everyone that I walked up to were all 2006's. Tomorrow is 2007 and almost their whole Mini inventory will be a year old... how did that happen?? Too committed to MSRP? Who knows? I was very surprised to see the volume of Mini's.
Mark156
Were you at The BMW Store? I was up there yesterday looking for a new toy. FWIW, since the 2007 Mini is "all new"; many dealers accepted an extra allotment and are selling them for @$1K off sticker. My wife really wants one but we're going to wait until the Louisville dealership opens. Still, I really like the JCW GP- but I can't justify adding a two-seater to the fleet right now.
Didn't know Louisville was getting a Mini dealer... I consider the lack of a dealer anywhere in the state to be an oversight, although I still see a handful of Minis on the roads.
Newbee, all you need to write on the piece of paper is the kind of car you want to purchase and the OTD price you are willing to pay.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Now, that's probably rude. There is a line, not even so fine, between being assertive (knowing what you want, knowing what you can and cannot do and being able to express it in respenctful, but unoffending manner) and being plain rude. This piece of paper you would hand out may be taken as sign of disrespect, suspicion and more important insecurity from your part. Being prepared for the worst does not mean behaving like you expect it before it even happens and swinging a sledgehammer at first encounter
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Last time, newbee almost got hosed by the F & I guy, from the sound of it. Just 'cause the sales weenies said all was well & initialed the paper didn't mean the deal's final.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
As I understand it, Mini has pretty detailed requirements for dealerships, which has discouraged more than one potential dealer. Swope is building a new Lexus showroom, and the Mini store will open in the old Lexus digs.
I think giving them a piece of paper would be rude too but I have to admit I give them all the speech. I tell them what I expect and things that tend to piss me off and will kill the deal immediately. I try and do this in the most polite manner I can but I think it helps them know where I stand. I don't care if the boss is in a good mood, how good I look in the car or if the car is "hot". I just want to know about the car (9 times out of 10 I know more than the dealer) and what they will sell it for. I explain that any fee that shows up after we make a deal is a deal breaker. That being said I do try and treat the salesman well. I know he has a job to do but it is my checkbook in the end.
We have to be careful around these F&I people, don't we?
I almost walked out of the local liquor store(getting some bubbly for tonight's emidnight celebration) over a 25 cent charge card fee.(it's not allowed actually by Visa or MC for them to charge a fee no matter how small the charge) - so I can understand as well.
It's like when I was shopping last month for a used car. I couldn't find a single dealer in Los Angeles who didn't try to not a little, but blatantly - to rip me off.
Not $100 in extra fees, but $2000 or $4000. Just insane B.S. that made me walk out of almost every dealer. They were selling crash-damaged cars as brand new or printing up their "blue book" stickers on the cars a year off(ie - flat out lying/entering in fradulent data on the computer and printing it out). Or they would try to sneak in a 30-40% interest rate. Half of them tried that, actually. Or adding a year in payments with a straight face - on a lease, no less. I'd point it out to the manager and he'd tell me my math was off.
The greed and lack of any morals... it was apalling. Much worse than even ten years ago. Perhaps it's Los Angeles, but I doubt if it's isolated, given human nature.
So I ended up buying a used beater that I can use until next fall when I can pay cash at an auction.(here in L.A., it's very easy to get into the same auctions - that's one plus I guess)
The problem is those honest salesmen are hard to find. In my own experiences, it really doesn't matter what I said, some salesmen still pretend not to understand/hear what I said (e.g., I said many times that I don't want their financing they don't seem to get that, or I want a particular car, they still try to show me another car) and they tried to steer the deal their way. Therefore, I thought of handing something to them to read. I thought it may be harder to ignore what is written and they should take my words seriously.
Even if somebody finds a good salesman, the deal can still be killed by the F&I people (this is what happened to me in the last deal). I still have a good feeling with the salesman I first contacted because he understands my seriousness. But, I couldn't help him to earn his commission on the deal because other people broke it.
I fully understand the dealership's desire to make more money on the deal and I don't have a problem with that. But, they could have done that during the negotiation. They want to take over my financing, they want to sell extra services, I'm OK with negotiating all that. If both sides agree with the terms of the deal than there should be no problem.
What I have a problem with is their method of taking advantages of customers when the customers are the least suspected (in the F&I office)). The second problem is that their attitude towards customers if the deal doesn't go their way. Where else in the retail business a customer has to suffer such bullying/intimidation/trickery when he's trying to spend a lot of money (at least > 10K for a good car)?
My intention to state all the things I need/prefer in written form is in fact going to save the time of the people at the dealership and my time. I've seen how they're whining about losing their time when I walked out because of something they did.
Can you elaborate more on the auctions that a private buyer can participate?
I used carfax and many vehicle records show that the vehicles were sold at an auction in the Pacific Region. I wonder where those auctions are.
I searched this forum and found Manheim Auctions (http://www.manheim.com/) but my understanding is that only registered dealers can get in.
it depends on the car. car models become a year old when the next model year comes out (or so i've been told). for instance, my 07 elantra won't be on kelly untill the 08s come out.
Ask around and find someone with a dealers license I know of a couple of private dealers (people who mostly buy and fix up wrecked cars) who have them. The usually charge $100-200 to go with you to buy a car. Not bad considering their time and the cost of the license. It can save quite a lot of money but it is a cash deal.
1.Transfer Tag/Title if you have a trade-in you will sign twice in FL
2.Information admitting you have insurance=Insurance Papers
3. Retail Sales Agreement
My best buying experiences have been at Rick Case Honda and Toyota of Hollywood, Florida. Worst at Reed Nissan in Orlando, Fl. The 6'3 300 lb business manager cursed me out so I cursed him out right back. I don't think he was used to someone not being afraid of him so I was not so nicely asked to leave. I am a F 5'8 college educated. Some salesman like some customers are very very abusive. He took it there and I left it there. It gets ugly because as someone mentioned above, we have emotions and emotions get involved because MONEY is involved. Any situation involving money has the potential to be cantankerous.
I learned as I bought and traded more cars. It's a business. Don't make it personal. If they want your business they want it if not oh well. Next!
For example. I wanted to trade in my Element. I supposedly was 4,000 upside down. Yeah, whatever. My own financing stated I could only advance 125%. I went to many dealerships test drove because I was interested in several hatchbacks. My favorite the Yaris. Second, Aveo, Third, Accent, Fourth Fit and Fifth, Versa, last Focus. The Toyo dealership 2 miles up the road from my house said "Sorry, lady...we can't do that deal." They worked the numbers it did not work for them and they tried to sell me a Scion TC. Um, no. As I was getting in my car they said "Hey, lady we are trying to help you out here." I laughed.
Honda dealership in my town wanted me to sign for a 07 civic with the trade-in $20,000. Um no!
In the meantime, I was inches away from signing for the Aveo. Nice $2500 rebate, final numbers $15,000 for the base model including my trade. The Aveo interior is awesome but the manual shifter is choppy and the ride well I wanted to sleep on it.
I drove 2 hours South and found a Toyo dealership in Hollywod, Florida. Took time but they made the deal work at my numbers.
payment reduced by $100
gas mileage doubled.
I had been laughed out of 3 dealerships, Nissan, Honda and Toyo.
Bottom line:
If they want to deal they will. If they don't they don't. What can you do? Find a salesman and a dealership that will sell you the car you want at the price you are willing to pay. Why get nasty?
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
for example, when I was purchasing an ODY, the salesman and I converged on a price quickly.
i had all the figures with me. my credit union was going to finance.
the F&I guy had slightly better numbers. no trickery involved.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Yeah just stop by your local school transportation company. Oft times they have old ones for sale. Many, if not all, states limit how old and/or how many miles a school bus can have to be able to transport students. We use to pick them up cheep strip out the seats and use them to carry gear.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2018 430i Gran Coupe
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
The car was one of those supplier discount deals so not a lot of negotiation there. They didn't have it on the lot and they wanted $150 to go get it from another dealer an hour away. I said for $75/hr I will go get it, and I also wasn't excited about some 17 y/o kid flooring this car for 60 miles.
As it turned out, they split it with me and flat beded it back. I thought that was fine and fair.
Then the F&I guy told me my credit was good and it wouldn't be a big deal to finance. I said no cArp, I wanted him to beat my rate, which I gave him. He said fine, called back 2 hrs later and said it was all good. He did his job where he told me about each package but didn't obnoxiously push it.
I think part of this is because the supplier purchase thing leaves some money on the table for them, but we got our target price, so everyone was happy.
There are several "consumer" auctions in SoCal (not Manheim) that allow individuals to purchase a car. I have attended them a few times in the early 90s and pretty much concluded that they were selling more junk than quality used cars.
I will admit that it is fun ... but I generally prefer to go to the police auctions in Chicagoland.
I hope they choke on 'em.
Did you mean this one in Dublin, CA?
http://www.acauction.com/
Can anyone comment on the quality of the cars at this particular Alameda County auction?
This dealer will move the Vette before the Solara.
I work for a plumbing mfrs rep in New England - I was just wondering.
Unless of course they have a security guard on duty and locked gates keeping people from trespassing when they are closed...
They might have their back pin fenced off but a big fence around the front lot does not look very attractive.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
We also have a new Toyota dealership way out by the mall that just opened. It was not too far from the BMW/Mini dealership I stopped by yesterday. The reason that I'm bringing it up as I have never seen so many cars at a car lot before. The road is slightly raised in front of the dealership so you can get a good view of the inventory. I swear there must have 400-500 cars on the lot including the huge inventory in the back of the building.
Happy Motoring! Mark156
So please forgive me if this has already been said?
I have worked in distribution for many years.
I have worked with many salespeople.
I have bought many new cars – in my past 35 years.
The key difference I see between the typical salesperson in “other” areas of distribution ( HVAC, Paper Products, Electrical & Power Tools \ Building Supplies and Fasteners ) where I have worked is that these sales people are typically trying to establish a long term sales relationship with a potential customer. They can only survive if their customers become & remain repeat customers. The largest $$ individual item typically sold in ( residential ) HVAC or Power Tools, for example, is in the range of $1,000 to $10,000 – and larger $$ sales are typically of multiple and \ or highly specialized units.
Car salespeople seem ** GENERALLY ** to view each potential sale in isolation. Since ( realistically ) the next sale to the same customer is very likely to be ** AT LEAST ** a year in the future.
[ One exception here would be the fleet sales person \ department. I’ll ignore them here. ]
This sort of very short term view, I think, makes it much more likely that car salespeople ( and dealership GMs, and Sales Managers and Finance people ) will try tactics that would virtually guarantee that a customer would never even consider doing business with that salesperson and \ or dealership again in the future. With an expectation that they would not have an opportunity to sell a car to the same person again for a long time anyway. Even if the customer decided to buy the same brand, next time. They thus see very little to lose – and possibility to gain $$s today. Losing a possibility of potential future sales appears essentially of no concern. Normally, usually, generally.
Not really an accusation – more of an observation.
Just my $0.02 worth ( if that ) . . .
- Ray
Of limited understanding, certainly . . .
That line of reasoning makes sense, especially as there seem to be many dealerships that constantly churn the sales staff, which gives no incentive for the salespeople to focus long term.
However, the counter argument would be that although the dealership may not need to care about repeat sales to any one customer, they almost certainly need to care about repeat sales to the demographic area that they cover. Unless they are in an area with a very high density of potential customers, which is also constantly transient and being replenished, then reputation must count for something.
Personally, I think that a lot of the strange sales tactics we see come from type 'A' personalities with runaway egos (maybe like madmanmoo's collegue, or was it thenebean's?).
so, any new SALES stories from our good friends here?
-thene
One is a large Ford, Saab, Volvo, Mazda dealership that has a 4' chain link fence around their 10 or so acres. They have an off-ramp on one side, commuter rail on the back, and residential on the other side. The main road has no parking. They swing closed a short gate every night and have a security guard in a vehicle basically telling folks the dealership is closed and to come back in the AM.
Another is a large Toyota/Scion/Jaguar dealership encircled by a highway, an on ramp and a main road. They gate off the new cars at night and a guard is there again telling everyone they are closed and to come back in the AM.
Others just have a short gate or block the entrance with used cars but it's tough to park in the area so it's not easy to browse unless you're willing to walk.
I guess they want to protect their inventory from vandalism and theft.
That's usually what I find. Although, if I were a determined thief, I don't see how riding over a curb is going to deter me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I pointed at the test track and said, "If they can drive over that do you think a curb is going to stop them?"