I would ask him for an out the door price with breakdowns. I always line up my own financing and give them a chance to beat it. If he does not want to break down the price (which would be a big red flag for me) I would ask him for the total price I have to write a check for. You can pretty much deduct the sales tax and license fees and see if there is a big difference. I have found that quoted prices often neglect to mention transportation and "dealer" fees.
I would ask him for an out the door price with breakdowns.
If it's an OTD price then breakdowns don't matter. It could be $1 for the car and $19,999 doc fee, but as long as $20,000 is the price you want to pay then what does it matter. Just make sure you both agree on the definition of OTD, i.e. whether it's before or after tt&t.
I agree but I personally still like to see the breakdowns. In the end, you are right, it does not matter. If a car dealer won't break it down for me I am more than a little suspicious. Just like I also want him to tell me the model, all option codes and any dealer added extras before I show up.
Do you know the number of the Bill that was the legislation increasing the permitted doc fee limit to $240 in Ohio? My rep ignored that part of my last missive; I want to check to see if you voted for it and was trying to just answer my other comments without admitting she was part of that legislation.
I did once look it up but forget the number now - will try to do so again today. It was sponsored by a bunch of 'em (including the chair of, I believe, the House finance committee - he was from Medina and has since been term-limited out). It was, not surprisingly, buried in a bill contained changes to a wide variety of laws.
imi.....interesting. I didn't know there was legislation on the docket to limit doc fees in OH. I still think $240 is high. But, I've seen dealers try to charge a lot more than that (Lexus, in particular). Do you know what bill # it was/is?
I'm not moo...but this is from Honda's website regarding special APR...
Special AHFC A.P.R. financing available on all new 2006/2007 truck models (Excludes CR-V). 0.90% APR financing for 24-36 months and 3.9% APR financing for 37-60 months available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Example for 2007 Element: 0.90% for 36 months financing at $28.16 a month for every $1,000.00 financed. Dealers set actual vehicle sales prices. See participating dealers for details. For well qualified buyers. Not all buyers may qualify. Higher rates apply for buyers with lower credit ratings.
Offer valid for through 2/5/2007, on new and unregistered 2006/2007 Honda Truck models (Excludes CR-V) and only on approved credit by Honda Financial Services through participating dealers. Honda Financial Services' standard credit criteria apply. Example for 2007 Element: 0.90% for 36 months financing at $28.16 a month for every $1,000.00 financed. See dealer for details. Dealers set actual prices. Limited time only.
"No, I'm not your referral. It just seems suspect that a salesman is going to just "give away" a car."
That doesn't sound too unrealistic. He could very well have needed one more unit to get to another commission level. Maybe they get paid on the back end as well and new he would make some $$ there.
or maybe he was giving up his chance to make more of a commission than just a mini because this was a referral from his brother. isn't that what he said? if that guy that moo's brother referred to him had any idea of what WAS a good price, he would have snagged that right up. it goes to say that many of the people that salespeople deal with on a daily basis would not know a good deal if it bit them on the nose. granted, people on this message board tend to, but thats not even close to the majority of the people that salespeople deal with.
Reminds me of an Isell story that parallels one of my brother's.
Priced a car on the lot about $1500 under cost by mistake. Salesman notices mistake as a customer asks to test drive the vehicle. Tells the customer that he'll honor the price IF the person signs the contract NOW.
Customer hems and haws and says that he wants to shop the price. After customer leaves, salesman corrects the price. Customer runs back the next day after finding out that the car was a steal demanding a sale at teh incorrect price.
Doc Fee's in Pennsylvania are set by the state, the minimum is $55 but he didn't know what the maximum was because his store charged the minimum and he didn't know of any dealers in the Pittsburgh area that charged more than the $55 minimum.
I tend to believe him because I paid $55 for my cars, when I bought in '05 and '06 and my brother and nephew paid $55 when they bought in '05 and '06, all from different dealers in the Pittsburgh area.
Sooooo, there you have it for where I live.
Not bad, huh?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I remember ages ago when I lived in Tacoma, WA. The document fee I paid for cars was $39. But I can't see a state imposing a minimum document fee. A document fee is nothing more than a vehicle for dealers to fleece more money from their customers. The state isn't going to say, "You HAVE to rip your customers off for AT LEAST this amount." Now, I can definitely see a state imposing a maximum documentation fee to protect the consumer.
I would imagine that most states would be set up in similar fashion.
The maximum document preparation fee is 5 percent of the selling price, or $160, whichever is less. For example, the maximum document fee for a $500 vehicle would be $25. The maximum fee of $160 can only be charged on vehicles with a selling price of $3200 or more. According to the Office of Financial and Insurance Services (OFIS), document fees may not be charged for motorcycle, trailer and fifth-wheel trailer transactions. Questions regarding document fees should be directed to OFIS toll-free at (877) 999-6442.
State attorneys accused nine Lithia dealerships of illegally charging fees to prepare documents for buyers and failing to disclose accident and repair information on trade-in cars it sells.
The $500,000 fine would be the highest civil penalty ever dealt to an auto dealership in Alaska, according to the Department of Law.
Who would be entitled to a payout?
People who bought vehicles from Alaska Lithia dealerships on or after Oct. 1, 2002, could obtain a $200 refund if they paid a "document preparation" fee -- also called a doc prep fee -- in addition to paying a vehicle's listed price, according to the proposed settlement filed in state Superior Court. The settlement isn't final until the court approves it.
Under state law, auto dealers in Alaska are not allowed to tack on a document preparation fee when customers pay a vehicle's advertised price, said state Assistant Attorney General Ed Sniffen.
"The purpose is to keep (the dealer) from advertising a really low price and then getting you to come in and pay a lot more," Sniffen said.
Minnesota
Document Fees (MS168.66 subd 14) A documentary fee or Document Administration fee is a charge which reasonably compensates a dealer for the expense of preparing title documents and procuring license plates. The documentary fee is to reflect an amount reasonably related to the actual expenses incurred by the dealer in preparing, handling and processing documents related to the motor vehicle and the closing of the retail sale. The fee may not exceed $25.00. The fee must be fully disclosed to the customer and must be separately itemized on any contract or invoice. In no event may a documentary fee be lumped with "official fees" to give the customer the impression that the fee is imposed or authorized by the State of Minnesota. Only fees actually imposed by the State (title fee, transfer fee, etc.) may be listed as "official fees."
As a part of every automobile sales transaction with the public, dealers may charge certain fees and pass on various costs associated with the sale. These fees are necessary and customary and allow the dealer to recoup costs for document preparation and licensing. However, there are limitations to the amount and types of charges to the public. Currently, dealers are permitted to charge a maximum of $55 for document preparation. Since this is a negotiable charge, dealers can charge any amount up to $55. Therefore, this charge may not be pre-printed on a buyers order. This fee must be separately itemized on the buyers order and also disclosed by a sign in the dealership. Caution must be taken by dealers so as not to represent that this is a state mandated fee.
Ok, I found my notes. The 7/06 bump from a $100 max to a $250 max doc fee in Ohio was in House Bill 530. It revised ORC Sec. 1317.07. The primary sponsor was Chuck Calvert (R-69) of Medina Co.
I have no problem with that, not at all. I just don't like to be treated like an idiot who can be lured by false price ads. I know it's semantics and average developed person can figure OTD price, but it's just plain dishonest IMHO. The double tongue slick fellow (and his boss, and his boss's boss)lose lots of my respect right of the bat, as $699 obviously has nothing to do with cost of running documents, preparing a car or anything of that nature. Heck, even $299 is already high, but here it is considered a "reasonable and customary".
Then there are Saturns and Scions - supposedly fixed price cars. Nice $699 charged by EVERY SINGLE Scion Dealer from around - little coincidence, isn't it? Where is competition?
It's not the point and $1+$19,999=$19,501+$499=$20,000. All those phoney fees do is make price comparison harder (of course, that's the target), allow false low price claims and ultimately screw sales people out of their commission as they often would not count toward the gross. Basically everybody loses, but the owner.
i dont disagree with anything you said. in the end, its the owner's pocket that benefits. not the salespersons. having been a salesperson, and now just a consumer, OTD is the best way to compare apples to apples with regards to price. the reason why dealers keep pulling this stuff though is because it works on a majority of people. ok, so they may not sell you, or me, or other edmunds folks...but they sell enough to keep doing what they are doing. thats why people should never ever ever buy a car from a dealer who pulls all these tricks...it just perpetuates the cycle that they feel its ok to pull them.
Thank's for setting my salesman straight, you know, the one who told me $55 was the minimum Doc Fee in PA.
Just shows to go ya, that you can't believe everything a salesman says. :surprise:
However, the real point I was trying to make in post 7080, was the Doc Fee in the Pittsburgh area is very reasonable compared to what we have been told of other areas on this and other boards.
Now, I don't want everybody coming here to buy their cars otherwise us locals won't have any good stuff left to pick from and we'll be forced to buy in your high priced Doc Fee areas.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
When we bought the wifes Forester right before Christmas I noticed the sign the dealership had posted that stated their doc fees were $55 but, right now, I can't remember seeing a sign in any other dealership I have been in in the last few weeks.
I'll have to ride around tomorrow and have a look just out of curiosity.
cc....thanks. That's very interesting. The highest doc fee I've ever paid was $75. But, I've seen some OH dealerships who's fee was much higher. I didn't buy from them. But, when quizzed about their fee (Lexus), it was much higher than $100....or even $250 ($399 sticks in my mind). I never bought from those stores, so I don't know if I could get it waived or not.
Me thinks there are some OH dealerships who are flaunting that law.
I'm back in the fray again here. Yes, I'm not giving any car away. I'm just opting to give away any other commission besides a mini to take care of a referral from my BROTHER.
Tayl0rd is a prime example of the people that I work with on a regular basis. They aren't interested in negotiating with facts. They negotiate with feelings. And then they offer me a $5,500 negative deal.
I once had a customer who negotiated with her feeling AND "facts". She accused my dealership of putting the wrong Monroney labels on the vehicles on our lot. :confuse:
Someone asked about special financing with Honda. It is available.
its funny when that happens isnt it? i had a guy tell me that the titans were going for $10k off sticker in MA when i was selling. I was giving him maybe $4500-$5000 off sticker. I told him to tell me where, and I'd ride up with him to buy one for myself!
It was the last Saturday, of the last month of the year! My dealership was $100.00 away from making a car deal. The customers were not willing to let us make ANY money! This was a Wolfsburg Edition Jetta and they were just literally beating the heck of our salesman. This was day 2 of dealing with these people and finally he said "if I give you my commission will you do it?" I think he was hoping that they would say no after all the hell they had put him through. But he just wanted to make the daughter happy, it was the parent's who were buyers that made things so difficult.
So that $3.00 a month was that important to these people. It just made me mad. This salesman works hard and is a good, honest person. He deserved compensation for his time and efforts. His dad is in the hospital and his brother is in a wheelchair. While I agree that giving away his commission was his decision to make where do you draw the line? Am I wrong here? I respect people's right to negotiate a fair deal and pay the least they can get away with but this is taking it too far! I work for the company and couldn't get a deal like that. Nor would I ever ask. We probably will get a lousy survey from them too. :mad: Just needed to rant!
This was day 2 of dealing with these people and finally he said "if I give you my commission will you do it?"
This has to be one of those cases where a salesman is willing to dump a car at the end of the month/year just to make his numbers to get his bonus, right?
Why else would a salesman spend so much time to move a car and make nothing on it? The way I see it these people, of all his other prospects, had to be his best hope of getting rid of a car.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Two days of grinding??? This person didn't call himself socala4 or pch101 did he?
I guess it's up to each customer and salesperson to determine where to draw the line. I agree your friend "deserved" compensation for his time and effort. Unfortuantely, that's not the way the system is set up.
I agree everyone needs to make money. I know it is the only reason I go to work. I guess I have a couple of problems with your whole story though. Why would anyone spend two days trying to make a deal that would have hardly paid him anything? And why would the dealership allow the dealer to sell it so cheap? It seems to me it would have been a lot easier to just say sorry we can't do it and thank them for their interest. Now the next time they go to buy a car they will act the same way. You are right you will probably get a lousy survey from them now too because I am sure they feel the salesman wasted two days of their time. I am sure the salesman is a great guy but in this situation I think he did himself more harm than good. I don't reward bad behavior in a dealer and I sure wouldn't expect the dealer to reward my bad behavior.
I don't really see the problem here.. The customers were just holding out for their price. If the salesperson brought up his commission, then that was very unprofessional..
The customers wanted the price to be another $100 lower. How that happens isn't important to them, and shouldn't be. If the salesperson truly had to give up his commission to make the deal, then that would seem to be a poor choice, and I wonder why his manager would agree to it.
If a salesperson said that to me, I'd tell him that I didn't care if he had to steal the $100 from his mother... If he wants to sell me that car, then that is the price.. He can always say no.
Negotiations can end whenever the dealer wants them to.. Where do you draw the line? Wherever you want. It takes two to tango. (wait..thinking up some more cliches.. nope.. that's all I have).
I gave up my commission to get a deal ONCE. It was a mini deal and I gave him $100 cash after he signed all his paperwork.
This didn't really cost me money though, I hit a unit that paid me over $1k in bonuses. If I have to spend $100 to make $1,000.... I'd do it every day.
I agree with you on this one. It really doesn't matter to me how they get to the agreed on price, all that matters is that we meet on a price.
As for taking two days, if it takes that long both sides are at fault for that. Your buying a car, its not that difficult. It shouldn't take that long and if it does neither side has the right to blame the other.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
consumers have to be smart and decent enough to value their time and the time of others with respect to negotiating price on things like this. to grind in an effort to declare victory or eek every cent on a deal isn't negotiating in good faith and a whole host of other things i can think of.
$100 on a vehicle is threading a needle isn't it?
if you go in to do a deal on a house or a car or boat or some other high-ticket items like these and have a good idea of the cost, market value, etc, when you are THAT close and can't do the deal, i think you aren't very savvy nor respectful.
now if you're a consumer who is completely incompetent and didn't come into the negotiation with an idea what the cost, market value were, then you need to get educated, but a salesman taking 2 days of the stuff with an educated or a non-educated consumer doesn't make sense to me.
there's something else going on.
i remember blowing off a salesman who didn't want to deal with me when i was leaving very generous profit for him; he wanted to taunt my wife and i for a half-week with calls about coming back in and looking at inventory i wasn't interested in, and at prices he wouldn't honor anyway.
i finally said, after maybe the 4th call from him, "look if you sold me the car for a loss i wouldn't buy it from you because i don't like you and the way you treat people. you are a poor representative of your profession. i'd have to give you 0.0s across the board on your survey, and i hate to do that because i'm really a nice guy and i wish everyone to be successful who is honest and sincere, but i suspect it would do no good to give you 0.0s for feedback because your store still employs you...which speaks volumes to me and my wife about the other hassles i'd most likely have to deal with once we agreed on price".
I think it is a failure on the salesmans part when he lets things get that far out of hand. Only once in my 9 years of Retail car sales have I even thought about offering to give up a commission. People had been at the dealership ALL DAY LONG ( notice the caps?) on a busy Saturday. Not nice people, very rude in fact. We were giving up 1/2 of the hold back on this deal and they still wanted more. I had been angry ( at myself, at these strokers, at the situation) for about an hour. I finally said if I give up 125 dollars more, which, by the way is my commission, will you take this car? A smile spread across his face because he knew he had finally beat me. " Well that would sweeten the pot enough to get me to consider it" he said. At this point I blew up, " Well guess what you're not getting it, I have wasted enough time with you and my whole Saturday and you would insult me by wanting me to give up my paycheck for your mind games and ego. So you can go somewhere else and purchase a car! Oh, and by the way thanks for coming in to Brand X motors today." My sales manager who had been monitoring the whole thing just said " That was about three hours too late in coming."
I'm with kyfdx on this one. In order for there to be any negotiations, there has to be a buyer and a seller. Whenever either party decides enough is enough, then that's the time to call a halt to negotiations.
If I'm a sales person, I think there's a better use of my time than to spend 2 days negotiating. From the buyer's perspective, they aren't leaving until they believe they have the rock bottom price.
Personally, I would have played a little poker with the customer. After investing two days of their time at the negotiating table, I'd be willing to bet they'd be hard pressed to walk on that last $100. Even if they did walk, did you really lose anything?
Off topic question for the hosts here.....I'm looking for a thread regarding lemon laws (yes, it's the Caddy).
Ok I appologize apparently they came in alone at 8:30 on that friday night(we close at 9) and then came back that saturday with their daughter whom the car was for. So technically it wasn't 2 days. They read every single document front and back and I was informed later that the father apparently is or was in the auto business himself. Also the salesman was asked by the father how much he was making on the car. As for bonuses he's our top dog so I'm sure he hit his bonus. However I still think it wasn't right. As for my sales manager his wife just had a baby so we were on a skeleton crew.
Ok, I doubt that the salesperson really gave up his commission. If he did then he is an idiot. As someone said, it does take 2 to tango and to waste your time for 2 days with people like this is silly. How many other deals did it cost him?
With people like that customer I use the Bobst tactic of selling. "This is what I can sell the car for, if that isn't in your budget I am sorry but thank you for coming in" As for "fairness", never ever expect it from a customer. They aren't interested in fairness, or how much you make. They want the deal that is right for them. Sometimes you just don't have that deal, so killing yourself over it isn't going to do you any good. In the long run you are simply better cutting those people loose and going after better prospects. Let someone else kill themselves trying to make a deal.
I think any knowledgeable consumer should read erverything they're signing. We should all know what we're signing before signing it. They should also question anything they don't understand before signing, too.
I would think it would be irresponsible for any dealership to expect someone to sign any documents without the customer needing to read it first.
That said, it's none of the customer's business to know how much the dealership made on the car....nor, what the commission was for the sales person. I would just politely tell the customer that it's the dealership's business how they compensate a sales person or how much they make on their wares.
Personally, I would have played a little poker with the customer. After investing two days of their time at the negotiating table, I'd be willing to bet they'd be hard pressed to walk on that last $100. Even if they did walk, did you really lose anything?
I agree....I'm big on "folding my tent" when negotiations reach a sticking point over money. Just like we suggest to consumers...sometimes it makes sense to "walk away" from the deal....I can't tell you how many folks change their tune when I lose all interest in selling them a car and say thanks for coming in right in the middle of haggling, fold up the papers and walk away. It's like a reverse bobst. If they don't buy I didn't lose anything anyway. I'm surprised how often it works...its sorta like the hail mary pass with 3 seconds to go and your down by 5.
Comments
If it's an OTD price then breakdowns don't matter. It could be $1 for the car and $19,999 doc fee, but as long as $20,000 is the price you want to pay then what does it matter. Just make sure you both agree on the definition of OTD, i.e. whether it's before or after tt&t.
It might vary by state, but here in Florida, Yes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Your rep probably voted for it.
Special AHFC A.P.R. financing available on all new 2006/2007 truck models (Excludes CR-V). 0.90% APR financing for 24-36 months and 3.9% APR financing for 37-60 months available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Example for 2007 Element: 0.90% for 36 months financing at $28.16 a month for every $1,000.00 financed. Dealers set actual vehicle sales prices. See participating dealers for details. For well qualified buyers. Not all buyers may qualify. Higher rates apply for buyers with lower credit ratings.
Offer valid for through 2/5/2007, on new and unregistered 2006/2007 Honda Truck models (Excludes CR-V) and only on approved credit by Honda Financial Services through participating dealers. Honda Financial Services' standard credit criteria apply. Example for 2007 Element: 0.90% for 36 months financing at $28.16 a month for every $1,000.00 financed. See dealer for details. Dealers set actual prices. Limited time only.
That doesn't sound too unrealistic. He could very well have needed one more unit to get to another commission level. Maybe they get paid on the back end as well and new he would make some $$ there.
just my two cents...
-thene
Priced a car on the lot about $1500 under cost by mistake. Salesman notices mistake as a customer asks to test drive the vehicle. Tells the customer that he'll honor the price IF the person signs the contract NOW.
Customer hems and haws and says that he wants to shop the price. After customer leaves, salesman corrects the price. Customer runs back the next day after finding out that the car was a steal demanding a sale at teh incorrect price.
Great story.
Doc Fee's in Pennsylvania are set by the state, the minimum is $55 but he didn't know what the maximum was because his store charged the minimum and he didn't know of any dealers in the Pittsburgh area that charged more than the $55 minimum.
I tend to believe him because I paid $55 for my cars, when I bought in '05 and '06 and my brother and nephew paid $55 when they bought in '05 and '06, all from different dealers in the Pittsburgh area.
Sooooo, there you have it for where I live.
Not bad, huh?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The maximum document preparation fee is 5 percent of the selling price, or $160, whichever
is less. For example, the maximum document fee for a $500 vehicle would be $25. The maximum fee
of $160 can only be charged on vehicles with a selling price of $3200 or more.
According to the Office of Financial and Insurance Services (OFIS), document fees may not
be charged for motorcycle, trailer and fifth-wheel trailer transactions.
Questions regarding document fees should be directed to OFIS toll-free at (877) 999-6442.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/DN_DEC04_115887_7.pdf
*EDIT*
except maybe Alaska.
State attorneys accused nine Lithia dealerships of illegally charging fees to prepare documents for buyers and failing to disclose accident and repair information on trade-in cars it sells.
The $500,000 fine would be the highest civil penalty ever dealt to an auto dealership in Alaska, according to the Department of Law.
Who would be entitled to a payout?
People who bought vehicles from Alaska Lithia dealerships on or after Oct. 1, 2002, could obtain a $200 refund if they paid a "document preparation" fee -- also called a doc prep fee -- in addition to paying a vehicle's listed price, according to the proposed settlement filed in state Superior Court. The settlement isn't final until the court approves it.
Under state law, auto dealers in Alaska are not allowed to tack on a document preparation fee when customers pay a vehicle's advertised price, said state Assistant Attorney General Ed Sniffen.
"The purpose is to keep (the dealer) from advertising a really low price and then getting you to come in and pay a lot more," Sniffen said.
Minnesota
Document Fees (MS168.66 subd 14)
A documentary fee or Document Administration fee is a charge which reasonably compensates a dealer for the expense of preparing title documents and procuring license plates. The documentary fee is to reflect an amount reasonably related to the actual expenses incurred by the dealer in preparing, handling and processing documents related to the motor vehicle and the closing of the retail sale. The fee may not exceed $25.00. The fee must be fully disclosed to the customer and must be separately itemized on any contract or invoice. In no event may a documentary fee be lumped with "official fees" to give the customer the impression that the fee is imposed or authorized by the State of Minnesota. Only fees actually imposed by the State (title fee, transfer fee, etc.) may be listed as "official fees."
http://www.dos.state.pa.us/bpoa/lib/bpoa/20/veh_board/vehicle_2005.pdf
As a part of every automobile sales transaction with the public,
dealers may charge certain fees and pass on various costs associated
with the sale. These fees are necessary and customary and allow
the dealer to recoup costs for document preparation and licensing.
However, there are limitations to the amount and types of charges
to the public.
Currently, dealers are permitted to charge a maximum of $55
for document preparation. Since this is a negotiable charge, dealers
can charge any amount up to $55. Therefore, this charge may
not be pre-printed on a buyers order. This fee must be separately
itemized on the buyers order and also disclosed by a sign in the
dealership. Caution must be taken by dealers so as not to represent
that this is a state mandated fee.
Then there are Saturns and Scions - supposedly fixed price cars. Nice $699 charged by EVERY SINGLE Scion Dealer from around - little coincidence, isn't it? Where is competition?
It's not the point and $1+$19,999=$19,501+$499=$20,000. All those phoney fees do is make price comparison harder (of course, that's the target), allow false low price claims and ultimately screw sales people out of their commission as they often would not count toward the gross. Basically everybody loses, but the owner.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
anyways, my two cents...
-thene
Thank's for setting my salesman straight, you know, the one who told me $55 was the minimum Doc Fee in PA.
Just shows to go ya, that you can't believe everything a salesman says. :surprise:
However, the real point I was trying to make in post 7080, was the Doc Fee in the Pittsburgh area is very reasonable compared to what we have been told of other areas on this and other boards.
Now, I don't want everybody coming here to buy their cars otherwise us locals won't have any good stuff left to pick from and we'll be forced to buy in your high priced Doc Fee areas.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It's amazing how he mixed that up! Just really surprising something of that ilk could happen...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When we bought the wifes Forester right before Christmas I noticed the sign the dealership had posted that stated their doc fees were $55 but, right now, I can't remember seeing a sign in any other dealership I have been in in the last few weeks.
I'll have to ride around tomorrow and have a look just out of curiosity.
2025 Forester Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport
Me thinks there are some OH dealerships who are flaunting that law.
Based on the legislation passed through the last few years, business owned the legislators in this state, so why not flaunt it.
But that changes Monday, for better or worse.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Tayl0rd is a prime example of the people that I work with on a regular basis. They aren't interested in negotiating with facts. They negotiate with feelings. And then they offer me a $5,500 negative deal.
I once had a customer who negotiated with her feeling AND "facts". She accused my dealership of putting the wrong Monroney labels on the vehicles on our lot. :confuse:
Someone asked about special financing with Honda. It is available.
Be well.
-Moo
Physco ........ at it again.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
it was fun to call people's bluff sometimes
So that $3.00 a month was that important to these people. It just made me mad. This salesman works hard and is a good, honest person. He deserved compensation for his time and efforts. His dad is in the hospital and his brother is in a wheelchair. While I agree that giving away his commission was his decision to make where do you draw the line? Am I wrong here? I respect people's right to negotiate a fair deal and pay the least they can get away with but this is taking it too far! I work for the company and couldn't get a deal like that. Nor would I ever ask. We probably will get a lousy survey from them too. :mad:
Just needed to rant!
This has to be one of those cases where a salesman is willing to dump a car at the end of the month/year just to make his numbers to get his bonus, right?
Why else would a salesman spend so much time to move a car and make nothing on it? The way I see it these people, of all his other prospects, had to be his best hope of getting rid of a car.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Two days of grinding??? This person didn't call himself socala4 or pch101 did he?
I guess it's up to each customer and salesperson to determine where to draw the line. I agree your friend "deserved" compensation for his time and effort. Unfortuantely, that's not the way the system is set up.
So I'm not the only one who thinks that
ROTF !!!!
Rocky
The customers wanted the price to be another $100 lower. How that happens isn't important to them, and shouldn't be. If the salesperson truly had to give up his commission to make the deal, then that would seem to be a poor choice, and I wonder why his manager would agree to it.
If a salesperson said that to me, I'd tell him that I didn't care if he had to steal the $100 from his mother... If he wants to sell me that car, then that is the price.. He can always say no.
Negotiations can end whenever the dealer wants them to.. Where do you draw the line? Wherever you want. It takes two to tango. (wait..thinking up some more cliches.. nope.. that's all I have).
regards,
kyfdx
(not the host here)
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This didn't really cost me money though, I hit a unit that paid me over $1k in bonuses. If I have to spend $100 to make $1,000.... I'd do it every day.
-Moo
As for taking two days, if it takes that long both sides are at fault for that. Your buying a car, its not that difficult. It shouldn't take that long and if it does neither side has the right to blame the other.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
consumers have to be smart and decent enough to value their time and the time of others with respect to negotiating price on things like this. to grind in an effort to declare victory or eek every cent on a deal isn't negotiating in good faith and a whole host of other things i can think of.
$100 on a vehicle is threading a needle isn't it?
if you go in to do a deal on a house or a car or boat or some other high-ticket items like these and have a good idea of the cost, market value, etc, when you are THAT close and can't do the deal, i think you aren't very savvy nor respectful.
now if you're a consumer who is completely incompetent and didn't come into the negotiation with an idea what the cost, market value were, then you need to get educated, but a salesman taking 2 days of the stuff with an educated or a non-educated consumer doesn't make sense to me.
there's something else going on.
i remember blowing off a salesman who didn't want to deal with me when i was leaving very generous profit for him; he wanted to taunt my wife and i for a half-week with calls about coming back in and looking at inventory i wasn't interested in, and at prices he wouldn't honor anyway.
i finally said, after maybe the 4th call from him, "look if you sold me the car for a loss i wouldn't buy it from you because i don't like you and the way you treat people. you are a poor representative of your profession. i'd have to give you 0.0s across the board on your survey, and i hate to do that because i'm really a nice guy and i wish everyone to be successful who is honest and sincere, but i suspect it would do no good to give you 0.0s for feedback because your store still employs you...which speaks volumes to me and my wife about the other hassles i'd most likely have to deal with once we agreed on price".
only then did he decide not to keep calling us.
Perhaps the one about "leading a horse to water...?"
tidester, host
If I'm a sales person, I think there's a better use of my time than to spend 2 days negotiating. From the buyer's perspective, they aren't leaving until they believe they have the rock bottom price.
Personally, I would have played a little poker with the customer. After investing two days of their time at the negotiating table, I'd be willing to bet they'd be hard pressed to walk on that last $100. Even if they did walk, did you really lose anything?
Off topic question for the hosts here.....I'm looking for a thread regarding lemon laws (yes, it's the Caddy).
If he did then he is an idiot.
As someone said, it does take 2 to tango and to waste your time for 2 days with people like this is silly.
How many other deals did it cost him?
With people like that customer I use the Bobst tactic of selling. "This is what I can sell the car for, if that isn't in your budget I am sorry but thank you for coming in"
As for "fairness", never ever expect it from a customer.
They aren't interested in fairness, or how much you make.
They want the deal that is right for them.
Sometimes you just don't have that deal, so killing yourself over it isn't going to do you any good.
In the long run you are simply better cutting those people loose and going after better prospects. Let someone else kill themselves trying to make a deal.
I would think it would be irresponsible for any dealership to expect someone to sign any documents without the customer needing to read it first.
That said, it's none of the customer's business to know how much the dealership made on the car....nor, what the commission was for the sales person. I would just politely tell the customer that it's the dealership's business how they compensate a sales person or how much they make on their wares.
I agree....I'm big on "folding my tent" when negotiations reach a sticking point over money. Just like we suggest to consumers...sometimes it makes sense to "walk away" from the deal....I can't tell you how many folks change their tune when I lose all interest in selling them a car and say thanks for coming in right in the middle of haggling, fold up the papers and walk away. It's like a reverse bobst.