Although, if I were a determined thief, I don't see how riding over a curb is going to deter me.
Well since there is typically a line of vehicles along the front, you won't just be able to drive off any car - you have to take one on the front line. Of course you may have to drive it over a nice stone wall, landscaping, berms and pull it out into 40 mph traffic...all the while trying to maintain a low profile.
There are a couple of major differences between a car salesperson and a paper salesperson(for example) A car salesperson usually only represents 1 brand. A paper salesperson represents multiple "brands". Cars are an emotional purchase, paper, or building supplies isn't. Car buyers have almost no loyalty to the brand let alone the dealer anymore, so it makes more sense for a car dealership to try to maximize the current business opportunities and worry about tomorrow later. A wholsale seller of paper products or building supplies is in it for the long term and will seek to build a relationship. they offer multiple brands, so chances are they will have something you like. Plus, the emotional aspect isn't there.
I know I am late to the party but this is my two cents....
I worked in a 7 day store, and now I work in the Great State of Texas and thank goodness for blue law. I usually do not take a day off during the week, and just use my Sunday as time off. I feel more refreshed and on my game have at least one day off. To those who work in a 7 day store it is not uncommon to work 21 days in a row. At that point you do not look so hot, feel so hot and your dispostition tends to suck. You really are taking from the customer. Plus, many lenders are closed on Sundays so if the client has questionable credit, you might not be able to get a final yes until monday. So most people who are off Sunday are off Saturday, (unless you work retail and if so, you are off like on a Weds or something) I have not lost any business or sold less cars because of it.
I am new here and I wanted to throw my 2 cents regarding car sales practices I have experienced. I recently had some excellent experiences buying cars. I have purchased my last 4 cars (in reverse order) via internet salesperson, email with Sales Manager, 2 buy credit union buyer's broker.
I bring this up because in each of these transactions, I was treated with courtesy and we actually dealt with real numbers from the start. This enable us to close deals rapidly and painlessly. I had trade-ins on each transaction.
The main problem I have with standard car sales techniques is the disrespect shown to customers by use of the following techniques (all I have experienced in the past):
- The dreaded 4 square. Designed to shock and awe with outrageous payements, low trade-in values, high vehicle cost and extreme down payment requirements. This includes the "sign here if you want to prove you will deal today" line. The idea (in my view) is to give in each area in tiny increments and eventually wear the customer out into dealing.
- The constant back and forth to the "manager" game. Designed to wear out the customer and extract a long time committment from them.
- Sales manager looking you over like a piece of meat prior to negotiations starting.
- The turn-over, bringing in the closer or other sales people to wear you out into buying.
- Original salesman goes to "run the numbers" and leaves you with a rookie salesperson who drives you nuts with silly small talk. Again, designed to wear you down and ensure you don't leave.
These are the main tactics I have experienced over the years that are huge turn-offs to me. This is a very disrespectful way to do business. I prefer up front real numbers, dealing with someone with the authority to sell and being able to leave within a reasonable amount of time.
I realize that cars sales is a business and most salespeople are decent folks. I just don't see the need for disrespectful sales tactics. I think the golden rule applies; Treat people how you would like to be treated.
In conclusion, I also realize the best way to buy a car is with no trade in and cash in hand.
They're all like that at one of the areas of town here where there's about 8 different dealers. I was once looking at the Honda dealership around closing time and they asked me to leave the lot. At the GMC dealer, they even locked me in, not knowing I was looking around the lot. I had to call 911 and have someone come out to get out of the lot.
Here in my part of FL it would be almost impossible to fence in the lots. Many of them are literally the size of fields, often landscaped with hillocks, streams and bridges which are used to artfully display favored models culled from the herds of routine stock. The showrooms and service areas are usually set way back from the road, rather like farmhouses overlooking their acreage.
If you drive in to look around, instead of getting a salesperson running up to you, you will often have one chasing you in a golf cart. I suspect that they must have at least one full-time employee who's only job is to keep track of which vehicles are where, and who currently has the keys!
The main problem I have with standard car sales techniques is the disrespect shown to customers by use of the following techniques (all I have experienced in the past):
- The dreaded 4 square. Designed to shock and awe with outrageous payements, low trade-in values, high vehicle cost and extreme down payment requirements. This includes the "sign here if you want to prove you will deal today" line. The idea (in my view) is to give in each area in tiny increments and eventually wear the customer out into dealing.
4 squares drive me crazy too. I pretty much tell them to put them away or I am out the door. If they question how serious I am, I always reply I am pretty serious about heading out the door.
I only buy a new car every two or three years for myself. We have two and I usually keep them at least 5 years. I do end up helping negotiate two or three deals a year for friends and family members. I am pretty sure I could get just as good, if not slightly better deal, at a traditional dealer but I just can not stand the "dog and pony show" about it all. I wonder how a car dealer, knowing what they know now, would react to the "normal" sales pitch that is so common? Don't get me wrong I have had lots of good car buying experiences but only when I take charge. If I let the dealer lead it always ends up with me frustrated and the deal busted.
In my experiences, if we made up our mind about how the numbers in those squares should be (in a reasonable way), there will not be much gaming at all. We go in, let them write the numbers once, then throw our numbers out and tell them we're ready to leave in 10 min. if there is no agreement.
Another way is to do the negotiation via email/phone (would be hard with a trade in) before comming in.
The longer we stay, the more they'll think they can beat us in the games.
As a customer, I feel I don't have much in my bag of tricks to counter those of the experienced car salesman/his manager or closer/F&I guy. I don't think we should use tricks on them unless we feel they're using theirs. So what are a car salesman's pet peeves? What do you say/do that will make a salesman change his attitude and work seriously with us on selling a car?
Here are some that I collected 1. I'm not buying today unless you have a good deal (starting at $500 below my estimated invoice) 2. I'm not making any decision today 3. I'll be in the market next year 4. I went bankrupt last month/year 5. I'm leaving
Could you add more from your own experiences?
One thing I learn is that we may save time by not telling them how we calculated our offer. This is because they will go on and on about incorrect website information, etc.
I just tell them this is what I want to pay, so I saved some of the drama. One salesman told me I can't just pull a number out of no where like that, I need to go to a website to look up information ... :-)
After asking his manager about my offer, he came back and show me the manufacturer's website with the MSRP + destination fee. He told me the dealer will take care of the destination fee. I smiled and thanked him for his time and walked out. The reason was that I felt it would be difficult to reach any agreement with this dealer. Everything I see over there seems to be too much over-priced.
At another dealer, a manager asked me if I believed in KBB. I said no, I have to look at many sources to determine if it's a good deal. It turns out his CPO car is over-priced at the KBB's CPO price.
So what are a car salesman's pet peeves? What do you say/do that will make a salesman change his attitude and work seriously with us on selling a car?
Here are some that I collected 1. I'm not buying today unless you have a good deal (starting at $500 below my estimated invoice) 2. I'm not making any decision today 3. I'll be in the market next year 4. I went bankrupt last month/year 5. I'm leaving
I just read the repo thread. Here is another one
6. I'm buying a car because my last car was repossessed last week.
4 and 6 are intended to thwart any attempt to sign up a customer on a bad financing deal.
Well, if true, 4 and 6 pretty much guarantee that the only type of financing deal available will be bad.
Not always, While coming out of bankruptcy a month prior will always be bad I have seen people get their credit scores in the low 600's a year after bankruptcy. While not great its not all that bad.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not that the last several pages aren't interesting or entertaining, but few have anything to do with or by SALES people. We have so few SALES people left in this discussion and more and more buyers posting.
Give the SALES people a break and let them post without attacking them! Have a little more coothe than to ask, what really get's under your skin or how do I arm myself to screw you. There are plenty of other discussion that are for OUR side of the negotiation table. Use them!
There are crooks and honest people on both sides of that negotiation table. Not all SALES people or BUYERS fit into either category.
4-square....while I usually dismiss these from the start, there's no reason that you can't have the salesperson put "YOUR" numbers in the boxes. If you don't agree with the numbers on the sheet, don't sign it. If they say that it's required to show you're serious, tell them the mere fact that you're in their dealership shows your serious.
The ole' "back and forth". No need to get involved with that either. The OTD offer can be made as a "one time offer". They agree? You buy the car. They don't, you walk. One trip to the SM should be all that's required. Matter of fact, I like walking with the sales person to the manager's tower/office/desk to keep any trips up and down the ailes of the dealership to a minimum. The more "back and forth" you experience, the more you're going to be bumped.
I've yet to have any manager treat me like a piece of meat. If you are confident in your negotiations and are confident in your numbers, I don't see where any of them would try to treat you that way. Walk in timid, afraid, not knowing what you're really willing to pay, and that can only hurt you.
I don't have an issue with closers. My offer isn't going to change whether I make it to the saler person, the closer, or their manager. If I have to repeat myself though, I'm likely to walk out. Same goes for leaving me with a "rookie" (and also the reason I follow the sales person to the sales manager's desk). I don't mind small talk, but let's get to the deal....or not. If it's taking too long, I'm inclined to either wander on my own, or leave.
I usually have my numbers all ready on my own pre-printed sheet of paper. I give my sheet to the sales person. That sheeti shows MSRP, invoice, incentives, TTL and my offer. They can "run those" all they want. Take too long running my numbers? Yep, I'm leaving.
I like this question. Here are some of my pet peeves.
I hate it when a customer leaps out of the car and says "Who wants to sell a car today?!?!". You'll hear a collective groan from the salesmen.
When I ask a customer what they are trying to accomplish today, and they respond with "...........". I'm just trying to keep us on track, Mr. Customer.
When they don't keep their appointments.
When they send in an e-mail inquiry and NEVER have the courtesy to tell me they either DO or DON'T need my help anymore.
Let's take note of the discussion titles, and we're happy to create new topics if we need 'em.
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I hate it when a customer leaps out of the car and says "Who wants to sell a car today?!?!". You'll hear a collective groan from the salesmen.
I have a short story about that.
Guy walks into the dealership and I am talking to another salesman and says that exact line.
I look the other salesman up and down and walk away. I just got a bad feeling form this guy.
Long story short he does end up selling this guy a car but it takes him almost the entire saturday to do it. In that same amount of time I sell two cars and make two other appointments for later the next week. One of those appointments turns into a sale.
I sold three times as many cars as he did and made four times as much money because this guy was one of those "I know everything guys."
He knew the value of his S-Class cause he bought it at manhiem with a friend of his. Too bad his friend didn't tell him one whole side of the car had been painted BADLY and he over paid at least 5,000 dollars for a wrecked mercedes.
A co-worker of mine bought an Accord last Thursday. He had his local dealer match the written OTD quote from further away dealer. Even though they agreed to the OTD price fairly quickly, he met seven people in three hours most of whom tried to play with numbers to add additional profit into the deal.
Yes, he did buy the car from them and he didn’t pay more than the original quote, but he had to go through hell to get there.
Yes, but seven different people! And it wasn’t just accessories and warranties; they were shuffling the numbers, adding bogus fees and just continued on making “mistakes”.
If it was 7, then that's excessive. No question. I'm just taking everything with a grain of salt. I'd be surprised if it was actually that many folks coming through and bumping numbers.
At my dealership, the most people involved in a deal will be 3. The salesman, the sales manager, and the business manager.
We usually just have one as I can normaly wrap up a sale without having to bring anyone else into my office. I might get up once to consult with either the F&I/used car/Business manager or our New car/Center manager but that is it.
If I have reached a point that I can no longer make any more progress I will introduce them to one of our two sales managers and see if they can make any progress.
There are good referrals and not so good referrals.
My brother refers a friend of his to me. I know the gentleman and his wife and have been acquainted with them for several years. They are looking to purchase a new Odyssey.
I call him up and discuss what he's looking to purchase. He's not sure what model he wants to go with or if he wants to purchase new or used. Fine, part of my job is to land someone on the right vehicle.
I have them come in to test drive and look at the different options available. We settle on an '06 EX model that is still on our new lot. I had immediately put them on a triple net deal out of deference to my brother. I showed them what the price would be drive-out and asked them if this was in the neighborhood of where they were trying to spend.
I receive two responses. Wife says they don't know their budget yet and husband says he hasn't done enough research yet. Red flags pop up in my head, but I continue on.
They go drive the Sienna (for comparison) and then I get a call from hubby telling me they want my best price on the EX model. I restate the numbers I gave them from before.
He becomes agitated and tells me about dealer incentives, the fact that with the new year we have to pay more taxes on the '06, and then what he is willing to pay. I try to cut all the amateur negotiations out and ask him what he's willing to pay for the vehicle.
His offer to me is $5,500 less than my triple net price. :confuse:
I'm dumbfounded. I tell him there must be some sort of trust issue here because I'm trying to take care of him and he's thinking that I'm leaving $5,500 on the table. He tells me that he's received price quotes on the internet that are just a little higher than that. Me - "We can't do that." Him - "All due respect, just ask your manager because he's the one making the decision."
Long story short, I'm VERY irritated and tell him that I'm going to pass on this deal and thanked him for trying to work through me. And then I hung up.
People are unbelievable sometimes. You try to do right by them and they treat you like the stereotyped salesman.
I called my brother to apologize to him for not being able to help his friend. After he heard the story, he was a little mortified and apologized to me.
Yesterday, he sent me another referral. Funny thing is, he actually coached them this time. He let them know that I was trying to help and would work out a good deal for them. I hope this one goes a little better.
-Moo
(Some flu bug circulating right now isn't helping my patience level. I'm sick as a dog.)
moo....I don't have any issues with the way you setup your deals.
If I expect the salesperson to be there when I make an appointment, then the least I can do is to be punctual when I say I'll be there.
If I have one dealer I've been visiting with, and I consumate a deal somewhere else, I don't have any issues in telling the "losing dealer" I've bought somewhere else....and why.
Personally, if I'm in your shoes...and someone comes in all blustery with the line...."who wants to sell a car today?", I'd be inclined to kick them to the curb.
I have used e-mail before, but have always felt that I need to be at the dealership to have everything correct, and no misunderstandings.
As we've said time and time again in these forums, buy from the dealership/people you trust. It's a two way street. I'll sign at first pencil.....just agree to my first offer.....
What exactly was your "triple net deal" price... in comparison to Edmunds invoice for that particular vehicle?
My experience with being referred to general managers that are friends of my brothers and cousins (one works for Pontiac, and one works for Toyota), is that while you get a pretty good no hassle price... you can always do much better negotiating on your own. Perhaps your dealership is more magnanimous though?
What that means, Jip, is that I gave him all profit that was available to me. Everything. Invoice minus holdback minus dealer cash. And then he cut me $5,500 more.
If it takes three hours to get out of F&I and accessories, that's no different than a buyer sitting there grinding you to get an extra couple of hundred bucks for three hours...
Most of the manufacturer satisfaction surveys don't ask anything about the deal itself, or whether the dealership blatantly tried to monkey with the numbers, just more generally about the courtesy and friendliness of the staff. But, if they spent three hours trying to deceive someone, I don't think they were being friendly or courteous.
sounds like you should tell your brother not to send you people that aren't prepped to recognize a good thing when they see it. or maybe provide them some form of cheet sheet. but then i guess they wouldn't trust your advice.
there are so many sources of comparable pricing information. it's really not that difficult to spool oneself up on what a good deal is.
how do you recognize someone knows the product and has proper pricing expectations?
and when one of these people come through the door, certainly you don't grind him with 7 salespeople and hours of wasted time.
that one person who was prepared but endured hell to get to the numbers which were agreed in the beginning, he could have referred a number of other customers to the dealership.
The reason most dealers use these techniques is that they work. Not with all people obviously, but with enough people.
There are 2 kinds of dealers, those that want to treat you right and have you come back and refer people to them, these dealers generally charge more for their cars. The other kind is the car factory. They just want to sell you a car now. They don't care if you like them, they don't care if you never come back. They don't believe you will anyway. These factories will give you a good deal, but they make you earn it. The factories generally outsell the nice dealers, go figure.
volvomax....I'm not a fan of the "churn and burn" stores. I don't think I have to give up anything by buying from someone I trust, either.
From my experience, it's a corporate attitude that's fostered by which type of store you walk into. Some, like the "factories", don't keep their people long enough for me to establish any kind of relationship with. That's why I don't shop at those places. I don't know anyone, therefore can't trust anyone at those stores.
The more service oriented stores I do business with, I know I can contact someone I've dealt with before, know that they're likely to accept my offer, and do so all the while giving me good customer service/support.
All stores want to sell a car now. That's not exclusive to the factories. How they go about it is different, perhaps.
The sad part is, he wasn't basing that number on anything but what he thought he should pay. He got an internet quote that did not include any dealer added accessories, destination, taxes, or any other fees. It wasn't a drive-out quote.
You find that so hard to believe? Remember what I said...
all profit that was available to me
There is minimal profit built in for the dealer like documentation fee, but I gave him all the profit that I would be paid on. So all I'm making is a mini.
At my dealership it really does. I know it's unusual, but our pay structure is heavily weighted towards gross and units. So it's in your best interest not to use that money.
... I give him all profit that was available to me.
That's a fairly generous offer for people you really don't know that well. Do you usually give this type of deal to friends, or aquaintences of friends? If so I would imagine you're a fairly popular moo.
My Toyota GM (who is good friends with my cousin) said he would give me the friends and family discount, which was 2% over cost. Which at the time was a good price for a 2004 Sienna. The only problem with that deal, was it included a $489 doc. fee. I ended up buying a Mazda MPV when they started playing games, i.e trying to bump me into a higher priced van.
I give this deal to family and good friends of family. Apparently that's not a big deal to folks anymore. They want more.
I should have hit him at sticker with addendums and everything, then peeled him off the ceiling and make him feel like he's getting a good deal. Let him negotiate and feel good. I dunno.
I am no fan of them either. They exist and they are successful. What they do does work, however much we all wish it didn't. Until more people refuse to be treated like the factories treat them they will continue to sell cars and prosper.
At our dealership every sales guide does the whole deal start to finish - and we get paid front and back. The customers love just having one face. I work each deal at my desk and show then the R&R screen - no 4 square etc.
I have a quote ($17,035 plus tax and license) for a 2007 Civic LX (automatic) that I got via e-mail from a dealer who is about an hour away from me. Before I drive an hour, should I get something more complete from him? Should I have him itemize it and send it to me with a bottom line total cost? I have an idea of the licensing fees, and I can calculate sales tax, but I just don't want to show up and see hundreds of dollars in add-ons.
I have an idea of the licensing fees, and I can calculate sales tax, but I just don't want to show up and see hundreds of dollars in add-ons.
You answered your own question. Get the itemized quote before you go. Plus, read the Price Paid and Buy in Experiences thread for Civic before you go to get an idea of what other people are paying recently.
Getting a quote that you like from a salesman is one thing. Taking the car home and pay only what you'd like to pay is an entirely different matter. So good luck in your purchase.
Comments
Well since there is typically a line of vehicles along the front, you won't just be able to drive off any car - you have to take one on the front line. Of course you may have to drive it over a nice stone wall, landscaping, berms and pull it out into 40 mph traffic...all the while trying to maintain a low profile.
A car salesperson usually only represents 1 brand. A paper salesperson represents multiple "brands".
Cars are an emotional purchase, paper, or building supplies isn't.
Car buyers have almost no loyalty to the brand let alone the dealer anymore, so it makes more sense for a car dealership to try to maximize the current business opportunities and worry about tomorrow later.
A wholsale seller of paper products or building supplies is in it for the long term and will seek to build a relationship. they offer multiple brands, so chances are they will have something you like. Plus, the emotional aspect isn't there.
I worked in a 7 day store, and now I work in the Great State of Texas and thank goodness for blue law. I usually do not take a day off during the week, and just use my Sunday as time off. I feel more refreshed and on my game have at least one day off. To those who work in a 7 day store it is not uncommon to work 21 days in a row. At that point you do not look so hot, feel so hot and your dispostition tends to suck. You really are taking from the customer. Plus, many lenders are closed on Sundays so if the client has questionable credit, you might not be able to get a final yes until monday. So most people who are off Sunday are off Saturday, (unless you work retail and if so, you are off like on a Weds or something) I have not lost any business or sold less cars because of it.
I am new here and I wanted to throw my 2 cents regarding car sales practices I have experienced. I recently had some excellent experiences buying cars. I have purchased my last 4 cars (in reverse order) via internet salesperson, email with Sales Manager, 2 buy credit union buyer's broker.
I bring this up because in each of these transactions, I was treated with courtesy and we actually dealt with real numbers from the start. This enable us to close deals rapidly and painlessly. I had trade-ins on each transaction.
The main problem I have with standard car sales techniques is the disrespect shown to customers by use of the following techniques (all I have experienced in the past):
- The dreaded 4 square. Designed to shock and awe with outrageous payements, low trade-in values, high vehicle cost and extreme down payment requirements. This includes the "sign here if you want to prove you will deal today" line. The idea (in my view) is to give in each area in tiny increments and eventually wear the customer out into dealing.
- The constant back and forth to the "manager" game. Designed to wear out the customer and extract a long time committment from them.
- Sales manager looking you over like a piece of meat prior to negotiations starting.
- The turn-over, bringing in the closer or other sales people to wear you out into buying.
- Original salesman goes to "run the numbers" and leaves
you with a rookie salesperson who drives you nuts with silly small talk. Again, designed to wear you down and ensure you don't leave.
These are the main tactics I have experienced over the years that are huge turn-offs to me. This is a very disrespectful way to do business. I prefer up front real
numbers, dealing with someone with the authority to sell and being able to leave within a reasonable amount of time.
I realize that cars sales is a business and most salespeople are decent folks. I just don't see the need for
disrespectful sales tactics. I think the golden rule applies; Treat people how you would like to be treated.
In conclusion, I also realize the best way to buy a car is with no trade in and cash in hand.
Thanks! :shades:
I had an old boss when I was a valet (in college!) he loved to drop porte cochere because he thought it made him sound sooo damn smart.
and no Mark, I don't think you used it to make yourself look smart.
:shades:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The back lots is fenced in and locked but you can get to everything else.
If you drive in to look around, instead of getting a salesperson running up to you, you will often have one chasing you in a golf cart. I suspect that they must have at least one full-time employee who's only job is to keep track of which vehicles are where, and who currently has the keys!
- The dreaded 4 square. Designed to shock and awe with outrageous payements, low trade-in values, high vehicle cost and extreme down payment requirements. This includes the "sign here if you want to prove you will deal today" line. The idea (in my view) is to give in each area in tiny increments and eventually wear the customer out into dealing.
4 squares drive me crazy too. I pretty much tell them to put them away or I am out the door. If they question how serious I am, I always reply I am pretty serious about heading out the door.
I only buy a new car every two or three years for myself. We have two and I usually keep them at least 5 years. I do end up helping negotiate two or three deals a year for friends and family members. I am pretty sure I could get just as good, if not slightly better deal, at a traditional dealer but I just can not stand the "dog and pony show" about it all. I wonder how a car dealer, knowing what they know now, would react to the "normal" sales pitch that is so common? Don't get me wrong I have had lots of good car buying experiences but only when I take charge. If I let the dealer lead it always ends up with me frustrated and the deal busted.
Another way is to do the negotiation via email/phone (would be hard with a trade in) before comming in.
The longer we stay, the more they'll think they can beat us in the games.
Here are some that I collected
1. I'm not buying today unless you have a good deal (starting at $500 below my estimated invoice)
2. I'm not making any decision today
3. I'll be in the market next year
4. I went bankrupt last month/year
5. I'm leaving
Could you add more from your own experiences?
One thing I learn is that we may save time by not telling them how we calculated our offer. This is because they will go on and on about incorrect website information, etc.
I just tell them this is what I want to pay, so I saved some of the drama. One salesman told me I can't just pull a number out of no where like that, I need to go to a website to look up information ... :-)
After asking his manager about my offer, he came back and show me the manufacturer's website with the MSRP + destination fee. He told me the dealer will take care of the destination fee. I smiled and thanked him for his time and walked out. The reason was that I felt it would be difficult to reach any agreement with this dealer. Everything I see over there seems to be too much over-priced.
At another dealer, a manager asked me if I believed in KBB. I said no, I have to look at many sources to determine if it's a good deal. It turns out his CPO car is over-priced at the KBB's CPO price.
Here are some that I collected
1. I'm not buying today unless you have a good deal (starting at $500 below my estimated invoice)
2. I'm not making any decision today
3. I'll be in the market next year
4. I went bankrupt last month/year
5. I'm leaving
I just read the repo thread. Here is another one
6. I'm buying a car because my last car was repossessed last week.
4 and 6 are intended to thwart any attempt to sign up a customer on a bad financing deal.
Not always, While coming out of bankruptcy a month prior will always be bad I have seen people get their credit scores in the low 600's a year after bankruptcy. While not great its not all that bad.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Give the SALES people a break and let them post without attacking them! Have a little more coothe than to ask, what really get's under your skin or how do I arm myself to screw you. There are plenty of other discussion that are for OUR side of the negotiation table. Use them!
There are crooks and honest people on both sides of that negotiation table. Not all SALES people or BUYERS fit into either category.
The ole' "back and forth". No need to get involved with that either. The OTD offer can be made as a "one time offer". They agree? You buy the car. They don't, you walk. One trip to the SM should be all that's required. Matter of fact, I like walking with the sales person to the manager's tower/office/desk to keep any trips up and down the ailes of the dealership to a minimum. The more "back and forth" you experience, the more you're going to be bumped.
I've yet to have any manager treat me like a piece of meat. If you are confident in your negotiations and are confident in your numbers, I don't see where any of them would try to treat you that way. Walk in timid, afraid, not knowing what you're really willing to pay, and that can only hurt you.
I don't have an issue with closers. My offer isn't going to change whether I make it to the saler person, the closer, or their manager. If I have to repeat myself though, I'm likely to walk out. Same goes for leaving me with a "rookie" (and also the reason I follow the sales person to the sales manager's desk). I don't mind small talk, but let's get to the deal....or not. If it's taking too long, I'm inclined to either wander on my own, or leave.
I usually have my numbers all ready on my own pre-printed sheet of paper. I give my sheet to the sales person. That sheeti shows MSRP, invoice, incentives, TTL and my offer. They can "run those" all they want. Take too long running my numbers? Yep, I'm leaving.
I hate it when a customer leaps out of the car and says "Who wants to sell a car today?!?!". You'll hear a collective groan from the salesmen.
When I ask a customer what they are trying to accomplish today, and they respond with "...........". I'm just trying to keep us on track, Mr. Customer.
When they don't keep their appointments.
When they send in an e-mail inquiry and NEVER have the courtesy to tell me they either DO or DON'T need my help anymore.
When they don't sign at first pencil.
I'm sure there are more.
-Moo
You're correct, and I've moved the 4-square posts here:
dino001, "Buying Tips: How Do I Get the Best Deal?" #1683, 2 Jan 2007 7:11 pm
Let's take note of the discussion titles, and we're happy to create new topics if we need 'em.
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I have a short story about that.
Guy walks into the dealership and I am talking to another salesman and says that exact line.
I look the other salesman up and down and walk away. I just got a bad feeling form this guy.
Long story short he does end up selling this guy a car but it takes him almost the entire saturday to do it. In that same amount of time I sell two cars and make two other appointments for later the next week. One of those appointments turns into a sale.
I sold three times as many cars as he did and made four times as much money because this guy was one of those "I know everything guys."
He knew the value of his S-Class cause he bought it at manhiem with a friend of his. Too bad his friend didn't tell him one whole side of the car had been painted BADLY and he over paid at least 5,000 dollars for a wrecked mercedes.
Yes, he did buy the car from them and he didn’t pay more than the original quote, but he had to go through hell to get there.
Can you blame us for asking for profit? Dealer accessories? Warranties?
Hell..... Come on. If he doesn't want the extras, just say 'No'.
-Moo
At my dealership, the most people involved in a deal will be 3. The salesman, the sales manager, and the business manager.
-Moo
If I have reached a point that I can no longer make any more progress I will introduce them to one of our two sales managers and see if they can make any progress.
Yes, he did buy the car from them and he didn’t pay more than the original quote, but he had to go through hell to get there.
I'm not surprised at all. Anytime you spend that much time trying to buy a car, something bad is going to happen.
Just curious, how long does it take your friend to say NO ?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
There are good referrals and not so good referrals.
My brother refers a friend of his to me. I know the gentleman and his wife and have been acquainted with them for several years. They are looking to purchase a new Odyssey.
I call him up and discuss what he's looking to purchase. He's not sure what model he wants to go with or if he wants to purchase new or used. Fine, part of my job is to land someone on the right vehicle.
I have them come in to test drive and look at the different options available. We settle on an '06 EX model that is still on our new lot. I had immediately put them on a triple net deal out of deference to my brother. I showed them what the price would be drive-out and asked them if this was in the neighborhood of where they were trying to spend.
I receive two responses. Wife says they don't know their budget yet and husband says he hasn't done enough research yet. Red flags pop up in my head, but I continue on.
They go drive the Sienna (for comparison) and then I get a call from hubby telling me they want my best price on the EX model. I restate the numbers I gave them from before.
He becomes agitated and tells me about dealer incentives, the fact that with the new year we have to pay more taxes on the '06, and then what he is willing to pay. I try to cut all the amateur negotiations out and ask him what he's willing to pay for the vehicle.
His offer to me is $5,500 less than my triple net price. :confuse:
I'm dumbfounded. I tell him there must be some sort of trust issue here because I'm trying to take care of him and he's thinking that I'm leaving $5,500 on the table. He tells me that he's received price quotes on the internet that are just a little higher than that. Me - "We can't do that." Him - "All due respect, just ask your manager because he's the one making the decision."
Long story short, I'm VERY irritated and tell him that I'm going to pass on this deal and thanked him for trying to work through me. And then I hung up.
People are unbelievable sometimes. You try to do right by them and they treat you like the stereotyped salesman.
I called my brother to apologize to him for not being able to help his friend. After he heard the story, he was a little mortified and apologized to me.
Yesterday, he sent me another referral. Funny thing is, he actually coached them this time. He let them know that I was trying to help and would work out a good deal for them. I hope this one goes a little better.
-Moo
(Some flu bug circulating right now isn't helping my patience level. I'm sick as a dog.)
If I expect the salesperson to be there when I make an appointment, then the least I can do is to be punctual when I say I'll be there.
If I have one dealer I've been visiting with, and I consumate a deal somewhere else, I don't have any issues in telling the "losing dealer" I've bought somewhere else....and why.
Personally, if I'm in your shoes...and someone comes in all blustery with the line...."who wants to sell a car today?", I'd be inclined to kick them to the curb.
I have used e-mail before, but have always felt that I need to be at the dealership to have everything correct, and no misunderstandings.
As we've said time and time again in these forums, buy from the dealership/people you trust. It's a two way street.
I'll sign at first pencil.....just agree to my first offer.....
My experience with being referred to general managers that are friends of my brothers and cousins (one works for Pontiac, and one works for Toyota), is that while you get a pretty good no hassle price... you can always do much better negotiating on your own. Perhaps your dealership is more magnanimous though?
-Moo
Most of the manufacturer satisfaction surveys don't ask anything about the deal itself, or whether the dealership blatantly tried to monkey with the numbers, just more generally about the courtesy and friendliness of the staff. But, if they spent three hours trying to deceive someone, I don't think they were being friendly or courteous.
there are so many sources of comparable pricing information. it's really not that difficult to spool oneself up on what a good deal is.
how do you recognize someone knows the product and has proper pricing expectations?
and when one of these people come through the door, certainly you don't grind him with 7 salespeople and hours of wasted time.
that one person who was prepared but endured hell to get to the numbers which were agreed in the beginning, he could have referred a number of other customers to the dealership.
Not with all people obviously, but with enough people.
There are 2 kinds of dealers, those that want to treat you right and have you come back and refer people to them, these dealers generally charge more for their cars.
The other kind is the car factory. They just want to sell you a car now. They don't care if you like them, they don't care if you never come back. They don't believe you will anyway. These factories will give you a good deal, but they make you earn it. The factories generally outsell the nice dealers, go figure.
Were the other dealers giving him quotes on a used car, demo, one with less equipment or just flat out lying to him.
Or was he flat out lying to you.
From my experience, it's a corporate attitude that's fostered by which type of store you walk into. Some, like the "factories", don't keep their people long enough for me to establish any kind of relationship with. That's why I don't shop at those places. I don't know anyone, therefore can't trust anyone at those stores.
The more service oriented stores I do business with, I know I can contact someone I've dealt with before, know that they're likely to accept my offer, and do so all the while giving me good customer service/support.
All stores want to sell a car now. That's not exclusive to the factories. How they go about it is different, perhaps.
Silliness.
So you're saying you were going to sell him a car for nothing? Yeah, right!
all profit that was available to me
There is minimal profit built in for the dealer like documentation fee, but I gave him all the profit that I would be paid on. So all I'm making is a mini.
Are you my referral tayl0rd? I knew it!
-Moo
That really includes holdback?
-Moo
That's a fairly generous offer for people you really don't know that well. Do you usually give this type of deal to friends, or aquaintences of friends? If so I would imagine you're a fairly popular moo.
My Toyota GM (who is good friends with my cousin) said he would give me the friends and family discount, which was 2% over cost. Which at the time was a good price for a 2004 Sienna. The only problem with that deal, was it included a $489 doc. fee. I ended up buying a Mazda MPV when they started playing games, i.e trying to bump me into a higher priced van.
I should have hit him at sticker with addendums and everything, then peeled him off the ceiling and make him feel like he's getting a good deal. Let him negotiate and feel good. I dunno.
-Moo
Then, yes! You got the deal.
-Moo
They exist and they are successful.
What they do does work, however much we all wish it didn't.
Until more people refuse to be treated like the factories treat them they will continue to sell cars and prosper.
You answered your own question. Get the itemized quote before you go. Plus, read the Price Paid and Buy in Experiences thread for Civic before you go to get an idea of what other people are paying recently.
Getting a quote that you like from a salesman is one thing. Taking the car home and pay only what you'd like to pay is an entirely different matter. So good luck in your purchase.