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Comments
Warning – Dead Horse about to be beaten, yet again.
While I generally agree with the statements above, I think it is vitally important to clearly distinguish between GM ( or Ford, or BMW ) the Corporate Entity and the local Dealership.
My understanding is that the Dealership \ Franchise agreements and state laws severely restrict the influence GM or any manufacturer can exert over the dealers.
When last I had a major issue with any vehicle ( GM - my 2005 Grand Prix = transaxle failure ) I was able to establish contact with the GM Brand Quality Manager for the GP & interact via email with this individual to make certain that the dealer Service Manager & the tech personnel were correctly diagnosing the issue and to expedite replacement of the transaxle. Without this “back channel” communication, I do not know how efficiently my issue would have been handled. But almost certainly not as efficiently as it was. . . And in an ideal world, this would not have been necessary.
At the other end of this spectrum of GM acknowledging & addressing issues I’d place the Corvette painted roof separation problem. My observation is that GM has seriously angered many, many Corvette drivers with their ( miserable ) failure to deal with this issue in a timely manner – affecting literally thousands of vehicles & even potentially endangering other drivers & even pedestrians. ( I leave it to the reader to do any further research they might wish on this particular issue. )
I am not convinced that GM could better run every local Chevy or Caddy dealership in the country than the current dealer owners & managers. They seem to have enough problems with the product development and production side, right now. Yet, I certainly do wish that the Sales and the Service could be held to a much higher standard. And things like actually stocking parts that are wear items and \ or parts that have repeatedly shown issues – belts & hoses, for example. ( Not transaxles, I know & I understand. ) Many of these parts appear commonly not to be stocked & must be ordered. This can be very annoying due to repeated dealer visits required & time spent \ wasted.
Part of the problem, as I see it, is that the Brand Sign out front is no guarantee of either a good or a bad sales or service experience. [ Though a Lexus sign appears to be a reasonably good indicator that you’ll be well treated - on the service side, at least. ]
I also do not agree with the “nobody cares” sentiment – based on a ( relatively ) tiny sample of experiences. I have been treated very well and treated very poorly at stores handling the same Brand. And even at the same store – under different management “regimes”.
Manufacturers appear to have various standards of operation - but little ability to enforce them at the Franchise Dealer level. Some dealer owners & managers will choose to "do the right thing" - and others will not.
Sadly, I do not see this changing any time soon.
- Ray
Happy with my ONE visit to the Chevy Service Department where I purchased my Corvette a couple of months ago – a ‘sample size’ of 1 . . .
While LEGALLY, you might be correct, I agree with Graphicguy that the dealership experience is an integral part of the ownership experience. I can think of at least two brands - Chrylser and Honda - that I won't buy because of all the hassles at the local dealerships.
While the OEM does not control the dealership, they sign contracts with the dealership that pretty much lay out what and how the dealership operates within the marketplace. If they fail to live up to the agreements, the legal departments at the OEM can pull their franchise.
I agree that there are good and bad dealerships in most brands. personally, I would rather pay a few extra $$$ and buy the vehicle at a great dealership than deal with some of the bad dealerships.
I absolutely do agree that the dealership experience in both the sales & service arenas constitute a very, very important piece of the overall “ownership experience”.
And things like delays in diagnosis & repair \ replacement to deal with problems may mean more to me than to some who have another driver ( or 2 ) and another vehicle ( or 2 ) available to deal with the logistics involved.
I just see repeated references that equate: GM = Dealer Service.
And poor experience at the dealership level is directly a reflection only of that ownership & management style. Not ( necessarily ) GM’s. Or Ford’s. Or BMW’s. Or Lexus’.
And I believe that the legal distinction is a very important one.
The 2 seem largely to be viewed as one, in the public’s eye. But they are not. And the diversity of treatment I ( again, a sample of one ) have received at different dealerships carrying the same brand(s) has been rather dramatically different.
The ‘good news’ is that in almost all cases, the New Car product is identical, purchased on one side of town or the other – or on the left coast or the right.
And, though there are logistic & other issues, we do have that choice.
- Ray
Voting with my $$s . . .
The original owner was some rental car company out of Cranberry Twp. PA. probably Enterprise. and it is Sirius. We'll see.
I've heard GM touting that the reliability/quality gap between manufacturers' is insignificant these days. But, from my small sample size, it's the details that kill GM (or Ford). From the GM HQ right on down to the dealerships, my perception from them is from the MAD MAGAZINE's "what?....Me worry?" tag line. While GM and Ford's empire is crashing down all around them, they ignore their most valuable asset....their customers. They ignore, deny, deride their customers' concerns. That's a quick road to ruin. Dealerships point to GM...saying "it's their fault". GM points to the dealerships...saying "it's their fault". All the while, the customer fumes.
Since this is a sales topic, I will say that I've had better sales experiences from GM and Ford than I have had with Toyota and Honda. Either I'm seeking out more experienced sales people, or they're training them better. But, I've not experienced the "old" high pressure tactics of yesterday with GM and Ford. While Toyota and Honda still seems to employ some of those "old school" tactics. Fortunately, I've been able to circumvent a lot of that by dealing only with upper level management or principles of the dealerships I've had to interface with.
The two Lexi dealerships around my area are owned by the same guy. Both dealerships are arrogant and not conducive to the way I like to deal....even though I know the owner of them....and have told him as much.
BMW, who I also have experience with, has two top notch dealerships in my area....owned by different people. They can be prone to a bit of arrogance...especially when it comes to price, but I can deal with either of them since they compete with each other.
BMW has bent over backwards to please me. That's a far cry from my dealings with Cadillac (and GM), however.
For example, I had one Ford dealership in Cleveland go to bat for me and get a post warranty adjustment on a transmission problem with Ford picking up 75% of the cost. Then I had a local Ford dealership try to rip me off on an engine repair while missing a major brake issue (for which he could have billed me more).
The local SAAB/Cadillac dealership spent an hour with my driver explaining the vehicle on a lease delivery. They also worked out all the problems with the Saab which was great.
The local Chrysler vehicle is 0-4 in adequately prepping the vehicle for delivery. (Could they at least top the fluids before delivery?)
Personally, it is so much easier buying used cars and getting to avoid the dealership experience (after the sale).
This is in response to the post several pages back. Sorry I am a little late, but here goes nothing.
I agree that it is not the best practice to decieve a customer on the phone to get them into the dealership. However, from my experience, I can say that I can always locate an identical vehicle and get it within 24/48 hrs. I would much rather get someone into the dealership and sell them a vehicle as opposed to giving them a price over the phone.
I understand that the consumer wants the best possible price, but what they don't understand (and I don't think they ever will), is that if you compare two identical vehicles from different dealers - BOTH DEALERS OWN THAT VEHICLE FOR THE SAME AMOUNT! So, if you want to drive 300 miles round trip to save $100 then so be it. Just don't call me and waste my time.
I see it all the time with Subaru buyers/SHOPPERS. They will drive 300 miles to save $50, waste 6 hrs in travel time, 3 hrs at the dealership, and God knows how much money on gas. Did they really save $50, i think not. But, you can't convince them of this. They know all and aren't going to let some "sleazy sales person" convince them of this.
So, to the person that posted about going 170 miles only to find out that the dealer didn't even have the car they said, IT SERVES YOU RIGHT, you are not even intelligent enough to know when you are getting a great deal. The perfect ending to your story would go something like "And to top it off, when I went back to my local dealer, they had already sold the Rodeo we looked at!!!!
Amen Bassman
While it doesn't really surprise me you feel this way, I think is shows the dishonesty that is pretty much standard among "most" car salesman. Now let me ask you a question. How was my brother supposed to know he was getting a good deal? This was pre-internet and I guess he was just supposed to take the dealers word for it without checking other dealers. Now I admit we did not even go back and try and buy one of the others. It is entirely possible the salesman at the first lot was lying to us too. My brother decided to buy a used jeep from a private party.
Now I agree with you that I would not now or even then drive the additional 70 miles save $50-100. Most of the time when a young and inexperienced car buyer walks into a dealership the money saved could be numbered in thousands and not $50 or $100. If the same thing happened today we would have known it was a good offer and told him to write it up.
Yes I fully admit we made mistakes in trying to buy the first new car either one of us had had. The dealership saw a chance to make a large profit on a "kid" and pretty much proved they would do or say anything to try and get it. I am quite a bit older and hopefully wiser now. It does not matter to me if you want me on the lot. It is my checkbook and I call the shots. If we can not make a deal over the phone or internet I will find someone who will. It's easy. I don't need to beat you out of your last $50 but I do expect to be treated with respect. The same respect I will give you. If not there is always another dealership that will take my money.
For someone else, the hour drive/$100 additional savings might have been worth it, and I don't think their position is any more or less valid than mine. It's a matter of what each person is comfortable with.
While technically true what matters is that both dealers may not be able to sell the car for the same amount. Volume and overhead can have a significant effect on what a dealer can sell a car for. So basically the amount of money a dealer has sunk into a car, either directly or indirectly, can vary from one dealer to the next.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Does anyone know what these abbreviations stand for?
They are listed on this pricing summary sheet the dealer gave us along with the Delivery, Holdback, Factory options, and a slew of other things. Mostly crap. I jst don't know what those two are.
From what you originally posted it sounded like the dealer was trying to add the holdback to the invoice price--that would've been a little easier to figure out.
If you add these holdbacks to the base invoice price (as listed by Toyota), you will get the same number as shown in Edmunds for invoice.
I'd guess the TAF is the regional dealer association advertising fee, but I'm not clear what TMF is. I'm in the Central Atlantic region, so I get to avoid those notorious extra fees tacked on by Gulf States and Southeast Toyota, both of which are independent distributors.
1) Base Vehicle Holdback $552.00
2) PIO Holdback $15.00
3) 1% Financial Reserve $276.00
All this fluffy crap leaves me thinking it's best to use Edmunds final figures and go do battle with them instead of all thses extra items on this sheet.
Again, Thanks for the help.
Let me illustrate with my 2005 Camry XLE 4-cylinder, from the "vehicle inquiry report":
Base model (dealer): $19,388
Side airbags:________$ 559
Destination charge:___$ 540
TDA:_______________$ 407 [advertising fee]
Gasoline:_____________$ 6
Dealer holdback:_____$ 450 [2% of base retail price of $22,545]
Whol. financial reserve: $ 225 [1% of base retail price]
Total:_______________$21,575
In Edmunds, the invoice total would have been $21,162 (included all of the above except TDA and gas).
Our host here, Edmunds, published paper books with MSRP and Invoice for Base and each Option for most autos at least back to the mid or early 1970's. This 'Edmunds' book was available at all magazine racks. At about $4.95, more or less. Edmunds didn't just spring to life when the internet came along.
'Invoice' cost has been available for many, many years.
In fact, Edmunds goes all the way back to 1966!
tidester, host
The main thing we did not do was be dishonest in any way. It was not as if we went into the first dealer and bargained down for the price. As we were walking by the salesman just mentioned they had a couple of 4x4 rodeo's, same setup, on sale and gave us a price. Today, through lessons learned, I would be much better prepared.
I guess I should really thank that dealer and a couple of others though. I learned some valuable lessons and only had to pay the price of gas and time. Both of which were much cheaper for me then. I learned it is my money and if I don't feel comfortable I can just get up and walk. The car salesman needs me one hell of a lot more than I need him.
Ford authorizes dealerships who hit certain CSI and warranty standards the ability to do something called an after warranty adjustment up to a certain dollar amount for customer satisfaction. If the dealership service CSI numbers are poor they don't get the authority to make post warranty adjustments on Ford dime...This is another reason to only buy from quality dealerships.
My preference is simply to make sure that they are disclosed. Typically, I insist that any agreement I sign be on exactly the final sales form, with whatever fees the dealership does charge.
One can then either negotiate the fees – or ( sometimes easier, in my experience ) simply negotiate a discount large enough that the final transaction price is satisfactory - with the fees factored in or accounted for.
Although ‘preprinted’, they certainly can be negotiated. Though this is late in the process. . .
Good luck!
- Ray
Caught once by this one some time ago – not pretty . . .
Although ‘preprinted’, they certainly can be negotiated. Though this is late in the process. .
The process, as I understand it, is at the quotation page that they give you, and not the final paperwork. She told me she had a firm price, but only showed me her quotation paper after the fact. She said she is picking up the car tomorrow, and signing final paperwork. I'd like to be there to make sure she crosses the t's and dots the i's so to speak. This is for a used car, so are doc fees the same for new and used? Seems to me that the used car docs would be fewer.
I guess the term these days for this sort of thing is the Bobst method. I've been using it for 15 years & had no idea it had a name. I bought two different cars in about 20 minutes each (one a Miata & one my present LS) on my lunch break. Decide the price you're willing to pay, and if it's met, you're done. If not, move on to the next dealer. Once you've cycled through all the dealers within range without success, it's time to move your offer up. I've never had to do that. Did I leave money on the table? Probably. Did I get what I considered a good deal? Definitely.
You've got to be ready & able to walk.
He/she who cares least usually wins the negotiation.
What difference does it make wether it is new or used? When you buy a car you have to determine what you are going to pay and then not budge from your price regardless of what additional charges/fees are added on.
It's only too late when you sign the papers and drive off the lot.
It's the buyers money, so the buyer determines how much is going to be spent.
Pretty simple huh?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
We were in the Army at that time and they sold him every kind of insurance their is (warranty, service, unemployment, disability, you name it...). I first went through each insurance with the couple and explained each inusrance in plain english. They agreed that they didn't need any of it.
I told them that the dealership wouldn't refund the money or lower their payments. The "refund" would be deducted from the end of the loan.We called the dealership and told them that SGT and Mrs. H no longer wanted any of this insurance. They started to pressure young SGT H. (I could tell by the look on his face.) I asked for the phone and explained who I was. I told the gentleman to cancel all of the junk today and have the paperwork ready within 24 hours or we would pay a little visit to the JAG. All was in order the next day at noon.
From that point on, I wouldn't help people negotiate unless I knew I could go the whole distance. I really felt bad for them, but I think they learned a lesson. At least they understood that disability insurance for a 22 year old SGT was a big waste.
As for DOC fees - they're whatever the dealership can get. Most can be reduced, but some dealerships refuse to negotiate on them. There are several post here about them. It basically comes down to a) refuse to pay them; b) reduce the fee to an acceptable amount; or c) pay the whole fee. In a) or b) the customer must be willing to walk.
It doesn't but Bobst has been such a persistent proponent of the method that others here have bestowed upon him the honor of attaching his name to the "method."
He/she who cares least usually wins the negotiation.
Negotiation is about reaching an agreement. If an agreement is reached then, by definition, both parties are winners.
tidester, host
He/she who cares least usually wins the negotiation.
I couldn't agree more. I didn't see your post before I wrote mine but I won't delete mine because the more this is emphasized the better it is for those that feel pressured to buy because of last second additions.
Maybe two heads are better than one.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
If you really don't give a rip and are in the process of walking out of the dealership, and someone runs after you to make the deal, who won?
In your world, both of us (& I can see your point).
In mine, me.
In a better world, it wouldn't have come to this. That happens more often than not, when I buy a car. But I don't care if it doesn't.
There's another one down the road.
Both winners? Not always.
Our leaders negotiated an agreement with the Chinese and North Koreans at the end of hostilities in 1954. No way was the US a winner...
Then the Clinton administration negotiated a nuclear agreement with the same North Koreans...again we eventually came away with the short end.
Those leaders agreed and, therefore, found the terms acceptable. Of course, people who were not party to the negotations may have thought differently and may have been adversely affected. But the negotiators agreed!
Then there is always the possibility of "buyer's remorse" where one party sees things differently - after the fact. And don't forget the "Law of Unintended Consequences." Many things look better with 20-20 hindsight vision. Nevertheless, they found the terms acceptable when they signed on the dotted line.
I won't even go into the realm of the witless, incompetent or foolhardy negotiator. Let's just say that ignorance is sometimes bliss.
tidester, host
I totally agree with you on this one. I think this forum is more of a tool and you have to read between the lines of many of the posters. It must be frustrating for honest car dealers, as you certainly seem to be, that many of the customers are far from honest. I think one of the problems for me is that many, I dare say most, car dealers feel it is perfectly ok to mislead and sometimes outright lie to any customer. I know for me honesty is a big factor in me making a deal. If I catch someone in even a small lie or misleading statement I will usually walk. I am perfectly happy to leave a couple of hundred (granted I need a "good" deal) on the table in an honest and strait forward deal.
The doc fees in my area are literally hundreds and hundreds of dollars. Having come from IL, where it's capped around $50, I was shocked! When I sent out my request for quotes, I specified right in the document that I would NOT pay a doc fee...that we were talking about an out the door price, with tax and actual title cost being the only additional items I would pay. Having stated it up front like that, there was no problem with any of the dealers trying to pull that "We have to charge it" BS.
The trouble is, some people believe everything they read, especially if they happen to like the numbers they see. Then, they come here and tell me..." I KNOW what other people have paid for that same car"!
When I read of doc fees in the hundreds of dollars, I have to wonder if that marketplace is so bad, the dealers HAVE to charge this to make any kind of a profit.
Some markets have been totally ruined.
Without fail, someone will ALWAYS rain on their parade by telling them they paid too much and how little they padi for the same car.
What a way to go through life!
I'm always careful. I don't play the game of semantics. Once I've established what I'm going to pay for a car that's all I'm going to pay. If the dealer wants to sell at that price we have a deal, if not, I walk.
It's up to the dealer to put my money into what ever pot satisfies them. I only have one pot and it's not so easy for someone to get to it without my permission.
It's still pretty simple.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Both of these items are preprinted right on the buyer's order. You generally can't get them waived, but negotiating a lower selling price is a way to get around them; that is, use "out-the-door" pricing or the Bobst method.
Now $35, that's a number I'd have no quibble with!
Without fail, someone will ALWAYS rain on their parade
You’ve got that right and I’ve said this before .. after I bought my wife’s car in June ’06, just for the fun of it I went onto the forum for her car and wouldn’t you know it, everybody in the country paid less than I did.
That’s the last time I’m going to do that. I hate when that happens. :sick:
jmonroe.
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
If we find that we paid too much for a car, then we can learn to do better next time.
Didn't some philosopher say that we should not live an "unexamined life"?