I've read the owner's manual before buying. Most recently, I did it with my 330i. I had heard so many negatives about the i-drive, that I wanted to make sure it was as easy as the sales person said it was. The sales person gave me an owner's manual to peruse before we had a deal. AFter reading the manual, I realized that the iteration in the 3 Series is much easier, and less complex, than everything I read said it was going to be.
Many owner’s manuals are now available online as .pdf files that can also be downloaded & saved. I have seen the BMW 3 series as well as many from Ford\L-M and GM.
I downloaded & read the one for my car for 2006 before I ordered my 2007 – and downloaded the 2007 version before delivery.
And I can easily refer to it at my desk here at work, or at home, without pulling the actual manual out of the car.
isell....I think it's a combination of the fact that some of us are just "car geeks". Some of it is related to the fact that there are those (me, included) want to know as much about the car as possible before writing the check.
I think the latter is true particularly now....given the complexity of todays vehicles.
For example, I'm sure you do a nice job of presenting the NAV systems in your vehicles. But, do you really have the time to go over every little feature of them?
Usually, I'll find things in the manual that simply aren't part of the conversation when buying a car.
Things that may be more obscure, like....
--what grade of gas does the car require --specific service intervals --type of oil the car uses --quantity and placement of airbags --NAV system capabilities...both stopped and while driving --bluetooth operation (what works, what doesn't) --ETc, etc.....
Give you an example....
As I've stated before, I'm going through some issues with my Mother's Cadillac. It's a current platform STS. Battery dies, repeatedly. One of the causes they think may be the culprit is that the car goes into standby mode when the key fob is close to the car. That means that the accessories are drawing power to have "instant on" capabilities whenever the key fob is within 10 ft of the car. As luck would have it, I hang my keys on a hook next to my internal garage door....certainly less than 10 ft from the car when it's in the garage. The owner's manual states that the car goes in to standby mode whenever someone who has the key fob within 10'. I think it's kind of a stretch, but I no longer hang my keys outside of my garage (same problems exist, though).
Another feature on the car, Bluetooth capability, states in the manual that bluetooth phones will work through the stereo for making and receiving calls. The feature doesn't work. Culprit? GM apparently is using bluetooth standards as they existed 6 years ago and has never updated to newer bluetooth standards. The manual states the standards Cadillac adheres to. They would have been obsolete before they even brought the car to market.
These are the types of things reading the manual help in determining.
"isell....I think it's a combination of the fact that some of us are just "car geeks". Some of it is related to the fact that there are those (me, included) want to know as much about the car as possible before writing the check."
GG - I think you have just described the mentality of a lot of the Edmunds junkies.
ISELL - as a follow up to GG's comment above, I am curious...Do you prefer to deal with the average, informed Edmunds type customer, or would you prefer to del with some Joe Schmo off the street that hasn't done a lot of research? From my side I assume that a salesman would see advantages and disadvantages with both types.
Good God! I hate that! I remember being on a car lot where they had absolutely nothing that interested me. I wouldn't have bought anything that day even if I was carrying two brief cases stuffed with $100 dollar bills! Still, the guy persisted. Heck, give me the car for free. That way I'll buy something.
I think buying a cheap car you're not happy with is also a bad decision. I believe in buying the car I'm most happiest with within my budget. I find a Buick often fits that criteria.
"isell....I think it's a combination of the fact that some of us are just "car geeks". Some of it is related to the fact that there are those (me, included) want to know as much about the car as possible before writing the check."
GG - I think you have just described the mentality of a lot of the Edmunds junkies.
You can add me to the list, and for the same reasons. Doesn't just apply to cars though. The internet is a real boon for those of us that like to know the 'ins and outs' of a product before taking ownership. Car, camera, PVR, power tool, domestic appliance, it's generally out there if you look hard enough.
Of course, for those who normally discard the instruction manual along with the packaging, this is all totally irrelevant.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I think what most of us have in common is, we do our homeword on the car we're interested in, we have confidence we're getting a good deal....AND....we make it as simple as possible.
I know this discussion is aimed at sales folks, but I hope you won't mind a buyer who'd like to get an opinion from your perspective. We recently bought a new vehicle, and the process was pretty smooth. But we ended up buying it from someone other than our local dealer, and I'd love any insight on where things might have gone wrong.
We (husband and I) were pretty sure we knew the make/model we wanted but needed to confirm it with a test drive. At the local dealer, we explained we wanted to test the car and wouldn't be buying it that day, but would return once we had done our pricing research. The salesman was very helpful and friendly, and we really liked the car. He asked us to come in, and we repeated that we needed to do our research before making the purchase. He said we could do some preliminary talk, so I agreed as it seemed like a good way to get a feel for the dealership's style.
He had a sales manager speak with us, and I told him that we were very interested in making a purchase but that we needed to do some research on invoice price, the typical price in our market, etc. He said that his invoice prioe was more because he puts hundreds of dollars into cleaning and dealer prep (I had noticed that every car on the lot had wheel locks/mud flaps/pinstripes added, to the tune of around $500). I made a mental note of a potential red flag, thanked him, and promised to be back in touch when we were ready to make an offer.
After my research, I came up with an offer of what seemed to be a fair amount over invoice. However, I added the stipulation of a two-year extension of the manufacturer's warranty to bring it in line with another vehicle we'd been considering. In the past (when we lived in another state), dealers have always been willing to throw in an extension or to offer it to us at cost.
I typed out a document that was suitable for emailing to dealers for quotes. It clearly stated my offer, specified that my price was out the door and that I had figured in taxes and actual title cost but that I would not pay an added doc fee. (In our state, a dealer has to charge the same fee to everyone, but I had learned that they can simply deduct it from the car price).
Before sending it, I returned to the initial dealer. I explained that we were pepared to begin shopping around but that I wanted to give them a chance to meet my price first, since they were local and we had done our test drive there. I also explained that we would not have a trade in. They trotted out a different sales manager, who started off by telling me we'd need to add in money for the dealer-added extras. I explained that I didn't want or need those items, so if they were mandatory, I would need to shop elsewhere. Then he said that he had cars coming in all the time, and he could just give us one that didn't have anything added (we were flexible on color).
He considered the offer and said he could meet it, but not with the extended warranty. He said he would have the F&I guy come out to talk to me about why they couldn't do that. I expected that perhaps they would offer the warranty at cost, which would have been fine, but instead the F&I guy spent the next half hour berating the manufacturer's extended plan and telling me why I should buy (at full price) an independent company's offering that he sells. I tried to ask some questions about the manufacturer's warranty, but he kept correcting me because he wasn't listening to what I was saying at all.
When he was done, I said that I wanted to do some more research and send out my emails to see if someone else would meet my price. I'm a little surprised they didn't make a counter offer, but they didn't.
I did some more research and realized that we probably weren't going to get the warranty thrown in due to some differences in our new home state. However, I sent out my email just to see what kind of offers I would get. Two dealers gave the same offer as the local place, i.e. they would meet my price without the warranty. Two offered $100 below invoice without the warranty, and one offered $250 below invoice without the warranty (most responded in writing, but the one with the best offer called on the phone).
I called the initial dealer and asked if they would meet the $250 below invoice (without warranty) offer. The salesman asked if I had it in writing, and I explained that it was on the phone. He put me on hold, then returned and said he could match it. My husband and I headed off with a check in our pocket, fully expecting to purchase our new car that night.
When we arrived, he asked again if I had it in writing, and I reminded him that I had told him it was via phone. I offered to call the other dealer and let him listen in to confirm it. He asked me to forward him copies of the emails that I had sent out and the responses that I had received. I did so right there at the dealership and repeated my offer to call the lowest-priced dealer.
He disappeared for a while, then returned with a four-square sheet that he asked me to sign to show I was serious. It had no figures or anything, and he should have know I was serious, since I was there for the third time, had just forwarded all the emails and offered to make the call, and had a check in my pocket. I said, "You know my bottom line price. Please bring a contract and I will happily sign."
He left, then returned with yet another sales manager who went into a diatribe about how the other dealer was lying and we'd never get that price. He said the only way he would honor it would be if we returned with a written offer that included a VIN. And he said even then he would only be willing to meet that deal because it was the end of the month since there was no profit and he'd only want to be moving a unit. He went on for nearly half an hour about what a skinny deal it was, how we'd never get it, etc., how his service dept. was so much better, and that we should come back with written confirmation. I was thinking to myself, "If I go through all that trouble, I might as well buy it from the low-offer dealer." The whole time, the salesman stood nearby looking rather uncomfortable; could just be my speculation, but I got the sense he saw a done deal flying out the window.
The next day, the low-offer person was off, but I left a message and he called me the following day. He sent the offer in writing, happily provided a VIN, and we picked up our new vehicle the very next day (smooth process, no hard-sell in F&I, etc.). Meanwhile, the original dealer called before I got in touch with the low-offer person, and I explained that I was in the process of verifying the offer and that if it was legitimate, we would be buying it there because I didn't want to take the risk of being lured in falsely again, especially since the manager had said it couldn't do it after the end of the month (the new month started the next day).
Part 2 is below, since it wouldn't all fit in one post.
Part 2, since all of it wouldn't fit in my first post:
The next day, after I had receieved my written confirmation, the original salesman called me back. I explained that I had the offer and that we were purchasing the car from the low-offer dealer. He asked me to send him a copy of the offer, which I did...I didn't want him to think we had been jerking his chain. I had really wanted to give him the business because he was very helpful and courteous.
Interestingly enough, on the day we bought the car, I received another offer for $350 below invoice! But at that point I didn't feel like nickle and diming; the low offer dealership had been helpful and upfront, and I was happy to give them the business. It also confirmed for me that despite what the local dealer said, the price was very doable or at least not as far out of the ballpark as they implied (which surprised me, since I couldn't find any factory to dealer incentives or rebates).
So what went wrong in our dealings with the local dealership? Did I do something wrong/offensive as a buyer? I like to keep my business local, and I felt they had multiple opportunities to make a counter-offer. Instead, they spent all their time trying to justify their position. Or am I missing something? We will be buying another car in a year to replace our other vehicle, so I'd love any tips you can share on how to improve my process. Or should I just forget about "local" and stick to internet quotes? (I won't need a test drive because we will be buying the same make/model).
You didn't do anything wrong. The local dealer wasn't willing to sell you a car at the price you were offering, and frankly, it sounds like you're better off having bought elsewhere.
Unless you're talking about a make that is hard to find or there are great distances between where you live and out-of-town dealerships, I think the concept of "local" is highly overrated. Especially if it means putting up with the sort of treatment you received.
You did pit one dealer against the other and that will sometimes annoy the first dealer enough to have you come in only to turn down the dealer. Trying to add the cost of an extended warranty to your offer only skews things.
This can be a miserable business for buyers and sellers alike. Your story bears that out.
I didn't say anything was wrong with it - It's just of all the different brands I have purchased over the years, when we bought our Honda earlier this year, it was the first time I had ever had the dealer bring up mudflaps and wheel locks during negotiations.
Nothing, as long as you're willing to take these items off the car & the bill at customer request.
Dealership pinstriping? I've yet to see a post by a consumer who really, really wanted pinstriping and was irritated that they had to take the car back to the dealership to get it done. Plenty of posts by folks who've been presented with a ridiculous bill for pinstriping that they neither wanted nor were willing to pay for.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
"Nothing, as long as you're willing to take these items off the car & the bill at customer request"
When we were negotiating our Honda, I was doing so in terms of Out the Door pricing. I made my offer, and the salesman told me that not only were they "losing money" on the car, but at my price they were also having to eat the cost of the mudflaps and wheel locks. I told him that my OTD price was firm, and if the wheel locks and mudflaps were that costly to them, they could take them off, and just apply my OTD offer to the car minus those items. He went to his sales manager, and came back and told me that they would accept my offer, and I could have the mudflaps and wheel locks, because the service department was closed and there was no one there to remove them anyway.
I just thought that it was odd that his retort to my offer centered around mudflaps and wheel locks.
"You did pit one dealer against the other and that will sometimes annoy the first dealer enough to have you come in only to turn down the dealer."
Huh? The first-visit local dealer pitted themselves against other dealers by not accepting the buyer's offer (which, as evidenced by the fact it was accepted and even bettered elsewhere, was a perfectly reasonable one).
When a dealer doesn't accept a customer's offer and/or fails to put its most competitive offer on the table, in this day and age it runs a strong risk of losing a sale. The old "I can't give you this deal, but please make sure you call me before you buy elsewhere" trick is extremely unpalatable to many customers.
I can see reading an owners manual on a Land Rover or BMW that are complex, but on a Subaru or Honda - give me a break. Snake, I have had many customers who research just as much as you do and ask questions (for which I have answers) that are not found in manuals or on lie - such as how does Dynamic Response work and do I need it?
I've yet to see a post by a consumer who really, really wanted pinstriping...
Ditto. I think pinstriping is ugly--my mother's car has it, and we would have asked them to remove it if the car hadn't been sitting on the lot for nearly a year with it already installed. The Volvo dealer puts it on all their cars, but doesn't attach an addendum sticker. They just brag about it when they're talking about how they "detail" all the cars they receive.
"It always strkes me as odd whan someone will spend 35000.00 on a new car yet be so cheap they won't buy these items that actually are beneficial."
I don't think wheel locks are that beneficial. I guess it all depends on where you live, but in my area, the only wheels you ever hear of being stolen are the custom, bling bling, ones.
Mudflaps are debatable - on some cars they look good, and on others they detract from the styling. I have a friend that lives in the northeast that hates them...he says when driving in snow/ice, it tends to get clumped up between the tire and the mudflap.
I really question buying these items when you look at what the dealer wants to charge you for them, vs what you can get them off the internet for.
and, as a consumer, I resent being told by a dealership what defines "beneficial" for me, personally, and being told that I should be more than happy to pay for the alleged benefit.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Well, answers to questions such as "Do I need a certain feature?" are primarily subjective and you can certainly provide a better interactive experience than the internet can, at least in real time.
However, there's no shortage of information on how certain features (like Dynamic Response) work. Check HERE for an example.
I'm not saying that you are dispensable as a source of technical information on the vehicles you sell, but I doubt there's much a customer can't verify themselves with a little diligent research.
Nor should a person be labled as "cheap" because they won't pay $60 for a $30 set of locks, or $100 for a $50 set of mudflaps...afterall, maybe that kind of intelligence got them into the position of being able to spend $35,000 on that vehicle to begin with.
I don't dispute that for a few customers, wheel locks are probably essential. But it's a tiny percentage, and no dealer should add them to all its cars by default.
Generally speaking, as long as the accessories being added are manufacturer accessories and they're clearly itemized on the sticker, I say caveat emptor. But when the dealer goes ahead and adds on pinstriping (which ruins the look of 100% of the cars it's applied to), "special protection packages," and so forth, it's a giant red flag and a cue to walk from that particular dealer's lot, imo.
It always strkes me as odd whan someone will spend 35000.00 on a new car yet be so cheap they won't buy these items that actually are beneficial.
Suggest items that might be beneficial to me, then offer them to me a reasonable price and you'll impress me.
Tell me that you've decided what's best for me and I have to have it at your price, then my reaction will be the opposite of the above.
How would you react if when buying your next TV you were told that a power surge connector, screen protector, and two spare remotes were included for your benefit at extra $250 additional cost? Surely you wouldn't be so cheap as to refuse these items that are actually beneficial?
Again, I don’t see that you did anything ‘wrong’ – except possibly spending too long at the “mudflap” dealership that tried various sorts of pressure. The closest Acura dealership to where I live does something similar. Typically these addons are marked up by an amazing percentage. I have no issue with any buyer choosing to have something added, at a reasonable price. But in my experience, this sort of situation, where every vehicle has some set of addons applied immediately on hitting the lot typically indicates that the dealership will likely not be the best deal – or the best to deal with . . .
There are probably a million ( or more ) variations of strategies in attempting to wring more money from every potential sale. From the: “We put that super wonderful paint protection / sealant / high profit goop on every car as soon as we receive it so we have to charge you an excessive price for it” sorts of silly tactics - to pressure applied by the finance person at final signing.
In buying my Corvette, I could certainly have ‘saved’ a few bucks in absolute discount off MSRP by dealing with one of 2 or 3 ( way ) out-of-state Dealerships. I chose to buy locally for several reasons enumerated above – some including logistics issues. My Dealership does not have the best reputation – but the sales person ( a specialist on selling Corvettes for approx. 10 years ) did allow the 2 test drives I required & spelled out the deal, signed by a manager, without any such annoying tactics.
I bought from a dealer in a neighboring state last time, due to lowballing trade values & precisely the sort nonsense you describe – and other similar tactics.
Glad you bought the car you wanted at a price that satisfied you.
"and, as a consumer, I resent being told by a dealership what defines "beneficial" for me, personally, and being told that I should be more than happy to pay for the alleged benefit."
Kirstie--it's not always the dealer. When my wife and I attempted to requisition a Rav4 two years ago it became obvious that the vehicles sent to my area were full of "options" designed to drive up the price. The culprit was Gulf States Toyota who determined that these were "desirable options" for buyers in the 5 states covered. This included pinstriping, vehicle protection package(s), etc. Obviously the dealer and GST both benefit from these add-ons. Interestingly, mud flaps were not typically added and it was next to impossible to get side curtain airbags--something we did really want.
We ended up buying a lightly used 02 instead of an 04 and it had the pinstriping and vehicle protection package as well as aftermarket leather seats, but by that time the sales price had fallen from the original MSRP by more than $10K. You've got to love depreciation--at least when someone else takes the big hit.
The point is, we all determine "benefit" differently. Living in OK I could care less about heated leather seats. I never even notice the pinstriping on the Rav4, but am glad it has anti-lock brakes, another option that was hard to find back in 04. I guess us Okies never get inclement weather or into adverse braking situations. :confuse:
Rarely do we have customers that don't find these items beneficial. We used to not install them and leave it up to the customers but so many ended up wanting them that we took the liberty of pre-installing them.
I guess in some areas, wheel theft isn't much of an issue and it never was here until a couple of years ago.
From my experience GST is notorious for these types of 'add-ons'. There may be others, but having bought 2 Toyota's that came through them, it became a point of negotiation between me and my salesman. A few of them I could live with, but a few were nothing but fluff.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
Funny, Southeastern Toyota does the same thing - infamouns Toyoguard package. I suspect though, dealers happily participate in it, as it lets them put it on the Monroney sticker, as it was a real "non-negotiable" option. And you're right about side airbags - same thing was with Matrix, when I looked last time - reasonably priced option (aroun $500), but impossible to find, yet "beneficial" and "high value" Toyoguard junk priced at $399 to $699 was on everything on all Tampa Bay lots.
Any dealer can sell a car for whatever they want to. What you consider "perfectly reasnoble" may not have been acceptable to that first dealer. Maybe the car was a high demand, short supply car the first dealer had no fear of loss in turning down a deal?
A lot of times the so called "deal" in another store is fiction. The customer is either lying or they were lowballed. I will tell a customer " That seems too good to be real, but if they will sell it for that, you should go with them". I am always very nice and I tell them..." if something should change when you get there,let me know"
I have to be careful when I do this because there are people who won't come back, admitting they had lied or were lowballed.
That seems too good to be real, but if they will sell it for that, you should go with them
Then the first dealer should have done exaclty that, not making idiotic demands of "matching only if shown in writing", sign blank square sheets "to show you're serious" and other crap like that. He knew exactly (within say $200-$300) what was real and what was not, so there is no reason for all those little weasley tactics. He already sees the guy is serious and well-informed, he already sees the guy is walking away if not satisfied with the terms, he is give a chance once, and then again - why is he stil trying to pull that crap???? What is the thinking there?? Sudden blackout in judgement on part of the customer, scare, charm, what?
There are guys out here very proud of their "extracting tacticts" - it would be a good question to them. When do you stop? When do you get a first clue the guy is no laydown, can't be dazzled with "superior service" claims or similar stuff. When do you just say "here is our offer, take it or leave it - we don't have time for more games", cause at certain point it's your time, too.
I just wonder, if it's not hard for Isell to say "I think your offer is too low, but here is mine and I'll be happy to sell the car to you provided I one is available on the lot and the offer is good for couple of days", why is it for so many other guys out there?
Hey, I didn't like the style and tactics of that first dealer either! I amswered the person who asked the question that I didn't think they did anything wrong!
As one would expect, your dealership takes in quite a few nice and, often, nearly new trade-ins. I am curious as to the cheapest car (or worst condition) vehicles you or your dealership ever took in on trade given your affluent clientele? Maybe the owner just won a lottery or came into a significant inheritance or simply started a much better paying job? How about someone who bought too much car and needed to trade down to something more affordable?
Call me a voyeur. I have two students, each of whom was involved in an injury-accident where someone else was driving and at-fault. One used her insurance settlement to buy a new Mercedes coupe and the other bought a brand new Hummer H3. I suspect neither was the "typical" buyer and I don't know if either student had a trade-in or parental financial assistance.
The trouble is, this often works. The weary shopper returns to the store that lowballed (lied) them and gives up. They cave in and buy the car for a higher price because they have had enough!
I do the same as you in regards to attempting to do business with the closest dealer of the particular model I'm seeking. It makes sense because it's where I'll have it serviced and it's just more convenient for me. But I give them one chance, then it's adios. They may have thought that you'll always come back and they can then match it.
Yes, that must be very frustrating for you. It's hard to understand because I'd rather go back to the non-lowballing dealer and pay a little more than reward the low-baller.
Let me say it this way: if I get an obvious lowball, I will likely not follow up. If I get a possible lowball, I'll likely tell you "look man, I understand you are not matching, give me what you think is appropriate", I would check the lowballer and in case of a lie, go back to you to reward you. Why would I go to the possible lowballer? Because if it's a borderline situation, I would feel like doing myself a disservice of not checking it out. It can be overstock situation, desperado newbie, desperado manager, loss leader, some bonus drive, who knows and honestly I don't care. However, the moment I find I was lied to and another guy already gave me an honest offer that was aceeptable, I stop listening to the liar and drive back.
I know my back and forth would not make you happy, but I hope you can respect that. There is no way of find out if the stuff is legimitate than checking it out.
I also think I can smell a "dishonest" dealership right away - it's those little signs, like exactly those junk packages put on everything, insulting YOU PAY ads with $3000 cash or trade deducted from the price, even the sales force manners. Call it dealer profiling (like customer qualifying, but in reverse of course) - I just need to just walk around their lot, speak for a minute with their salesguy, see their ad and get the feeling. :shades:
For the person who guessed it was a Honda...BINGO! A 2007 Honda Element, to be exact. The low-price dealer got it for us from another dealer, but in walking arond their lot, I noticed that they did not add on all sorts of pinstrips, mud flaps, and other "extras" to their stock vehicles (unlike the local dealer).
The experience with the local dealer was so odd. On that last visit, I really got the impression that the salesman was not happy with what was happening as the sales manager went on and on about how unrealistic the price was, how even if we had it in writing he would only give it to us at the end of the month when he really needs a sale, how great his service dept. is, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, as the salesman didn't say anything, but I just got a vibe that he (the salesman) was seeing a serious buyer with money in hand being sent away to buy elsewhere and wasn't too happy about it.
Comments
I downloaded & read the one for my car for 2006 before I ordered my 2007 – and downloaded the 2007 version before delivery.
And I can easily refer to it at my desk here at work, or at home, without pulling the actual manual out of the car.
- Ray
Addicted to reading . . .
In eleven years, I have never, once had a customer ask to do this nor have I heard of this happening in our store.
Thanks, now I can go shopping, in all the Christmas traffic, and not have to worry that I'll miss something.
Talk about bait and switch. Now even the guys who aren't in the biz are doing it. :surprise:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
OTOH, I've never bought a Honda.
I think the latter is true particularly now....given the complexity of todays vehicles.
For example, I'm sure you do a nice job of presenting the NAV systems in your vehicles. But, do you really have the time to go over every little feature of them?
Usually, I'll find things in the manual that simply aren't part of the conversation when buying a car.
Things that may be more obscure, like....
--what grade of gas does the car require
--specific service intervals
--type of oil the car uses
--quantity and placement of airbags
--NAV system capabilities...both stopped and while driving
--bluetooth operation (what works, what doesn't)
--ETc, etc.....
Give you an example....
As I've stated before, I'm going through some issues with my Mother's Cadillac. It's a current platform STS. Battery dies, repeatedly. One of the causes they think may be the culprit is that the car goes into standby mode when the key fob is close to the car. That means that the accessories are drawing power to have "instant on" capabilities whenever the key fob is within 10 ft of the car. As luck would have it, I hang my keys on a hook next to my internal garage door....certainly less than 10 ft from the car when it's in the garage. The owner's manual states that the car goes in to standby mode whenever someone who has the key fob within 10'. I think it's kind of a stretch, but I no longer hang my keys outside of my garage (same problems exist, though).
Another feature on the car, Bluetooth capability, states in the manual that bluetooth phones will work through the stereo for making and receiving calls. The feature doesn't work. Culprit? GM apparently is using bluetooth standards as they existed 6 years ago and has never updated to newer bluetooth standards. The manual states the standards Cadillac adheres to. They would have been obsolete before they even brought the car to market.
These are the types of things reading the manual help in determining.
GG - I think you have just described the mentality of a lot of the Edmunds junkies.
ISELL - as a follow up to GG's comment above, I am curious...Do you prefer to deal with the average, informed Edmunds type customer, or would you prefer to del with some Joe Schmo off the street that hasn't done a lot of research? From my side I assume that a salesman would see advantages and disadvantages with both types.
GG - I think you have just described the mentality of a lot of the Edmunds junkies.
You can add me to the list, and for the same reasons. Doesn't just apply to cars though. The internet is a real boon for those of us that like to know the 'ins and outs' of a product before taking ownership. Car, camera, PVR, power tool, domestic appliance, it's generally out there if you look hard enough.
Of course, for those who normally discard the instruction manual along with the packaging, this is all totally irrelevant.
bobst, "Dealers Too Busy For OnLine Shoppers" #479, 16 Dec 2006 11:25 am
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I think what most of us have in common is, we do our homeword on the car we're interested in, we have confidence we're getting a good deal....AND....we make it as simple as possible.
We (husband and I) were pretty sure we knew the make/model we wanted but needed to confirm it with a test drive. At the local dealer, we explained we wanted to test the car and wouldn't be buying it that day, but would return once we had done our pricing research. The salesman was very helpful and friendly, and we really liked the car. He asked us to come in, and we repeated that we needed to do our research before making the purchase. He said we could do some preliminary talk, so I agreed as it seemed like a good way to get a feel for the dealership's style.
He had a sales manager speak with us, and I told him that we were very interested in making a purchase but that we needed to do some research on invoice price, the typical price in our market, etc. He said that his invoice prioe was more because he puts hundreds of dollars into cleaning and dealer prep (I had noticed that every car on the lot had wheel locks/mud flaps/pinstripes added, to the tune of around $500). I made a mental note of a potential red flag, thanked him, and promised to be back in touch when we were ready to make an offer.
After my research, I came up with an offer of what seemed to be a fair amount over invoice. However, I added the stipulation of a two-year extension of the manufacturer's warranty to bring it in line with another vehicle we'd been considering. In the past (when we lived in another state), dealers have always been willing to throw in an extension or to offer it to us at cost.
I typed out a document that was suitable for emailing to dealers for quotes. It clearly stated my offer, specified that my price was out the door and that I had figured in taxes and actual title cost but that I would not pay an added doc fee. (In our state, a dealer has to charge the same fee to everyone, but I had learned that they can simply deduct it from the car price).
Before sending it, I returned to the initial dealer. I explained that we were pepared to begin shopping around but that I wanted to give them a chance to meet my price first, since they were local and we had done our test drive there. I also explained that we would not have a trade in. They trotted out a different sales manager, who started off by telling me we'd need to add in money for the dealer-added extras. I explained that I didn't want or need those items, so if they were mandatory, I would need to shop elsewhere. Then he said that he had cars coming in all the time, and he could just give us one that didn't have anything added (we were flexible on color).
He considered the offer and said he could meet it, but not with the extended warranty. He said he would have the F&I guy come out to talk to me about why they couldn't do that. I expected that perhaps they would offer the warranty at cost, which would have been fine, but instead the F&I guy spent the next half hour berating the manufacturer's extended plan and telling me why I should buy (at full price) an independent company's offering that he sells. I tried to ask some questions about the manufacturer's warranty, but he kept correcting me because he wasn't listening to what I was saying at all.
When he was done, I said that I wanted to do some more research and send out my emails to see if someone else would meet my price. I'm a little surprised they didn't make a counter offer, but they didn't.
I did some more research and realized that we probably weren't going to get the warranty thrown in due to some differences in our new home state. However, I sent out my email just to see what kind of offers I would get. Two dealers gave the same offer as the local place, i.e. they would meet my price without the warranty. Two offered $100 below invoice without the warranty, and one offered $250 below invoice without the warranty (most responded in writing, but the one with the best offer called on the phone).
I called the initial dealer and asked if they would meet the $250 below invoice (without warranty) offer. The salesman asked if I had it in writing, and I explained that it was on the phone. He put me on hold, then returned and said he could match it. My husband and I headed off with a check in our pocket, fully expecting to purchase our new car that night.
When we arrived, he asked again if I had it in writing, and I reminded him that I had told him it was via phone. I offered to call the other dealer and let him listen in to confirm it. He asked me to forward him copies of the emails that I had sent out and the responses that I had received. I did so right there at the dealership and repeated my offer to call the lowest-priced dealer.
He disappeared for a while, then returned with a four-square sheet that he asked me to sign to show I was serious. It had no figures or anything, and he should have know I was serious, since I was there for the third time, had just forwarded all the emails and offered to make the call, and had a check in my pocket. I said, "You know my bottom line price. Please bring a contract and I will happily sign."
He left, then returned with yet another sales manager who went into a diatribe about how the other dealer was lying and we'd never get that price. He said the only way he would honor it would be if we returned with a written offer that included a VIN. And he said even then he would only be willing to meet that deal because it was the end of the month since there was no profit and he'd only want to be moving a unit. He went on for nearly half an hour about what a skinny deal it was, how we'd never get it, etc., how his service dept. was so much better, and that we should come back with written confirmation. I was thinking to myself, "If I go through all that trouble, I might as well buy it from the low-offer dealer." The whole time, the salesman stood nearby looking rather uncomfortable; could just be my speculation, but I got the sense he saw a done deal flying out the window.
The next day, the low-offer person was off, but I left a message and he called me the following day. He sent the offer in writing, happily provided a VIN, and we picked up our new vehicle the very next day (smooth process, no hard-sell in F&I, etc.). Meanwhile, the original dealer called before I got in touch with the low-offer person, and I explained that I was in the process of verifying the offer and that if it was legitimate, we would be buying it there because I didn't want to take the risk of being lured in falsely again, especially since the manager had said it couldn't do it after the end of the month (the new month started the next day).
Part 2 is below, since it wouldn't all fit in one post.
The next day, after I had receieved my written confirmation, the original salesman called me back. I explained that I had the offer and that we were purchasing the car from the low-offer dealer. He asked me to send him a copy of the offer, which I did...I didn't want him to think we had been jerking his chain. I had really wanted to give him the business because he was very helpful and courteous.
Interestingly enough, on the day we bought the car, I received another offer for $350 below invoice! But at that point I didn't feel like nickle and diming; the low offer dealership had been helpful and upfront, and I was happy to give them the business. It also confirmed for me that despite what the local dealer said, the price was very doable or at least not as far out of the ballpark as they implied (which surprised me, since I couldn't find any factory to dealer incentives or rebates).
So what went wrong in our dealings with the local dealership? Did I do something wrong/offensive as a buyer? I like to keep my business local, and I felt they had multiple opportunities to make a counter-offer. Instead, they spent all their time trying to justify their position. Or am I missing something? We will be buying another car in a year to replace our other vehicle, so I'd love any tips you can share on how to improve my process. Or should I just forget about "local" and stick to internet quotes? (I won't need a test drive because we will be buying the same make/model).
Unless you're talking about a make that is hard to find or there are great distances between where you live and out-of-town dealerships, I think the concept of "local" is highly overrated. Especially if it means putting up with the sort of treatment you received.
What did you buy, btw?
They said mudflaps and wheel locks were added by the dealer...my money would be that it's a Honda product if I were a betting man.
You did pit one dealer against the other and that will sometimes annoy the first dealer enough to have you come in only to turn down the dealer. Trying to add the cost of an extended warranty to your offer only skews things.
This can be a miserable business for buyers and sellers alike. Your story bears that out.
We do that because in our wet area splash guards are important. We had to start putting on wheel locks a few years ago due to a rash of thefts.
Most people want these items anyway and this way they don't have to come back to have them installed.
Dealership pinstriping? I've yet to see a post by a consumer who really, really wanted pinstriping and was irritated that they had to take the car back to the dealership to get it done. Plenty of posts by folks who've been presented with a ridiculous bill for pinstriping that they neither wanted nor were willing to pay for.
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When we were negotiating our Honda, I was doing so in terms of Out the Door pricing. I made my offer, and the salesman told me that not only were they "losing money" on the car, but at my price they were also having to eat the cost of the mudflaps and wheel locks. I told him that my OTD price was firm, and if the wheel locks and mudflaps were that costly to them, they could take them off, and just apply my OTD offer to the car minus those items. He went to his sales manager, and came back and told me that they would accept my offer, and I could have the mudflaps and wheel locks, because the service department was closed and there was no one there to remove them anyway.
I just thought that it was odd that his retort to my offer centered around mudflaps and wheel locks.
Huh? The first-visit local dealer pitted themselves against other dealers by not accepting the buyer's offer (which, as evidenced by the fact it was accepted and even bettered elsewhere, was a perfectly reasonable one).
When a dealer doesn't accept a customer's offer and/or fails to put its most competitive offer on the table, in this day and age it runs a strong risk of losing a sale. The old "I can't give you this deal, but please make sure you call me before you buy elsewhere" trick is extremely unpalatable to many customers.
Ditto. I think pinstriping is ugly--my mother's car has it, and we would have asked them to remove it if the car hadn't been sitting on the lot for nearly a year with it already installed. The Volvo dealer puts it on all their cars, but doesn't attach an addendum sticker. They just brag about it when they're talking about how they "detail" all the cars they receive.
We can't remove items that are installed but we can simply sell them an incoming unit and delete the items.
It always strkes me as odd whan someone will spend 35000.00 on a new car yet be so cheap they won't buy these items that actually are beneficial.
I don't think wheel locks are that beneficial. I guess it all depends on where you live, but in my area, the only wheels you ever hear of being stolen are the custom, bling bling, ones.
Mudflaps are debatable - on some cars they look good, and on others they detract from the styling. I have a friend that lives in the northeast that hates them...he says when driving in snow/ice, it tends to get clumped up between the tire and the mudflap.
I really question buying these items when you look at what the dealer wants to charge you for them, vs what you can get them off the internet for.
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However, there's no shortage of information on how certain features (like Dynamic Response) work. Check HERE for an example.
I'm not saying that you are dispensable as a source of technical information on the vehicles you sell, but I doubt there's much a customer can't verify themselves with a little diligent research.
Generally speaking, as long as the accessories being added are manufacturer accessories and they're clearly itemized on the sticker, I say caveat emptor. But when the dealer goes ahead and adds on pinstriping (which ruins the look of 100% of the cars it's applied to), "special protection packages," and so forth, it's a giant red flag and a cue to walk from that particular dealer's lot, imo.
Suggest items that might be beneficial to me, then offer them to me a reasonable price and you'll impress me.
Tell me that you've decided what's best for me and I have to have it at your price, then my reaction will be the opposite of the above.
How would you react if when buying your next TV you were told that a power surge connector, screen protector, and two spare remotes were included for your benefit at extra $250 additional cost? Surely you wouldn't be so cheap as to refuse these items that are actually beneficial?
There are probably a million ( or more ) variations of strategies in attempting to wring more money from every potential sale. From the: “We put that super wonderful paint protection / sealant / high profit goop on every car as soon as we receive it so we have to charge you an excessive price for it” sorts of silly tactics - to pressure applied by the finance person at final signing.
In buying my Corvette, I could certainly have ‘saved’ a few bucks in absolute discount off MSRP by dealing with one of 2 or 3 ( way ) out-of-state Dealerships. I chose to buy locally for several reasons enumerated above – some including logistics issues. My Dealership does not have the best reputation – but the sales person ( a specialist on selling Corvettes for approx. 10 years ) did allow the 2 test drives I required & spelled out the deal, signed by a manager, without any such annoying tactics.
I bought from a dealer in a neighboring state last time, due to lowballing trade values & precisely the sort nonsense you describe – and other similar tactics.
Glad you bought the car you wanted at a price that satisfied you.
- Ray
Enjoy it!
Kirstie--it's not always the dealer. When my wife and I attempted to requisition a Rav4 two years ago it became obvious that the vehicles sent to my area were full of "options" designed to drive up the price. The culprit was Gulf States Toyota who determined that these were "desirable options" for buyers in the 5 states covered. This included pinstriping, vehicle protection package(s), etc. Obviously the dealer and GST both benefit from these add-ons. Interestingly, mud flaps were not typically added and it was next to impossible to get side curtain airbags--something we did really want.
We ended up buying a lightly used 02 instead of an 04 and it had the pinstriping and vehicle protection package as well as aftermarket leather seats, but by that time the sales price had fallen from the original MSRP by more than $10K. You've got to love depreciation--at least when someone else takes the big hit.
The point is, we all determine "benefit" differently. Living in OK I could care less about heated leather seats. I never even notice the pinstriping on the Rav4, but am glad it has anti-lock brakes, another option that was hard to find back in 04. I guess us Okies never get inclement weather or into adverse braking situations. :confuse:
Gogiboy
I guess in some areas, wheel theft isn't much of an issue and it never was here until a couple of years ago.
Were it not a problem, we woldn't install them.
Just goes to show, deal with people you trust, though (as opposed to the dealership that threw 2-3 sales managers at you as "closers").
http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/5/88612.html?1165613546
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He was probably thinking of the Crown Victoria Sport (the model that has the performance of a Police Interceptor, but is built for civilians).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Any dealer can sell a car for whatever they want to. What you consider "perfectly reasnoble" may not have been acceptable to that first dealer. Maybe the car was a high demand, short supply car the first dealer had no fear of loss in turning down a deal?
A lot of times the so called "deal" in another store is fiction. The customer is either lying or they were lowballed. I will tell a customer " That seems too good to be real, but if they will sell it for that, you should go with them". I am always very nice and I tell them..." if something should change when you get there,let me know"
I have to be careful when I do this because there are people who won't come back, admitting they had lied or were lowballed.
Then the first dealer should have done exaclty that, not making idiotic demands of "matching only if shown in writing", sign blank square sheets "to show you're serious" and other crap like that. He knew exactly (within say $200-$300) what was real and what was not, so there is no reason for all those little weasley tactics. He already sees the guy is serious and well-informed, he already sees the guy is walking away if not satisfied with the terms, he is give a chance once, and then again - why is he stil trying to pull that crap???? What is the thinking there?? Sudden blackout in judgement on part of the customer, scare, charm, what?
There are guys out here very proud of their "extracting tacticts" - it would be a good question to them. When do you stop? When do you get a first clue the guy is no laydown, can't be dazzled with "superior service" claims or similar stuff. When do you just say "here is our offer, take it or leave it - we don't have time for more games", cause at certain point it's your time, too.
I just wonder, if it's not hard for Isell to say "I think your offer is too low, but here is mine and I'll be happy to sell the car to you provided I one is available on the lot and the offer is good for couple of days", why is it for so many other guys out there?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
That should read "The customer is either lying or the dealer they visited was lying".
As one would expect, your dealership takes in quite a few nice and, often, nearly new trade-ins. I am curious as to the cheapest car (or worst condition) vehicles you or your dealership ever took in on trade given your affluent clientele? Maybe the owner just won a lottery or came into a significant inheritance or simply started a much better paying job? How about someone who bought too much car and needed to trade down to something more affordable?
Call me a voyeur. I have two students, each of whom was involved in an injury-accident where someone else was driving and at-fault. One used her insurance settlement to buy a new Mercedes coupe and the other bought a brand new Hummer H3. I suspect neither was the "typical" buyer and I don't know if either student had a trade-in or parental financial assistance.
Gogiboy
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The trouble is, this often works. The weary shopper returns to the store that lowballed (lied) them and gives up. They cave in and buy the car for a higher price because they have had enough!
I know my back and forth would not make you happy, but I hope you can respect that. There is no way of find out if the stuff is legimitate than checking it out.
I also think I can smell a "dishonest" dealership right away - it's those little signs, like exactly those junk packages put on everything, insulting YOU PAY ads with $3000 cash or trade deducted from the price, even the sales force manners. Call it dealer profiling (like customer qualifying, but in reverse of course) - I just need to just walk around their lot, speak for a minute with their salesguy, see their ad and get the feeling. :shades:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The experience with the local dealer was so odd. On that last visit, I really got the impression that the salesman was not happy with what was happening as the sales manager went on and on about how unrealistic the price was, how even if we had it in writing he would only give it to us at the end of the month when he really needs a sale, how great his service dept. is, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, as the salesman didn't say anything, but I just got a vibe that he (the salesman) was seeing a serious buyer with money in hand being sent away to buy elsewhere and wasn't too happy about it.