Stories from the Sales Frontlines

lrguy44

All I am saying is what happens in the real world. I am not passing judgment on right or wrong. But if emotion was not a major factor, everyone would drive a Hyundai or a low end Chevy. The pleasure of a driving experience of a Land rover, BMW, Mercedes, etc. would be lost. To answer your question, in our end of the business a high percentage of sales are cash or lease. Most of our customers only own their cars for 2-3 years (if that).

snakeweasel

I am not saying not to buy something you enjoy. But when you buy a big ticket item some thought should be put into it. Especially something like a car one should research what they are buying to make sure they get what they want and/or need at a good price. Buying at the spur of the moment when you have no research behind you is a sure fire way to get what doesn't fit you. Thats fine if you make a mistake buying a $45 shirt but is a fiscal disaster with a $25K car.

lrguy44

and why can't the sales person be part of the research and decision making?

snakeweasel

Several reasons. First off I don't think the sales person has my best interest at heart. Secondly I can learn a lot more from other sources than I can from a sales person.

mako1a

2004 GTO at Tucker and 2005 Vette at Huff are still on dealer(s) lots new in Wytheville, Va. I made an offer on GTO 1 1/2 years ago which was countered, but not accepted. What are the problems that may accompany a buy of these vehicles? Will 3/36 still apply as GTO will be nearly 7 years old and still warranted? Will A/C and engine/trans seals be ruined? These dealers don't advertise online and I seem to be the only interested customer. When will they throw in the towel and sell at a loss? These guys take holding out for price to a new level. :confuse:

mac24

The clock usually starts ticking on the warranty when the vehicle is sold/titled, or I think when used by the dealer as a demonstrator, though others here can can be more definite on the latter.

It's highly likely you'll have problems with seals and the the battery, but these will be covered by the warranty.

Whether or not the dealers will sell to you at a loss I have no idea, but don't be surprised if you see them selling at a huge profit in the Barrett-Jackson auctions later next year! :shades:

british_rover

We have gone this road before with Snakeweasel. He knows more about our products then we do. :confuse:

Or at least he claims to.

Oh and snake you can't bring up the subaru salesman again because you cannot compare that kind of low end sales to highline sales.

madmanmoo

Isellhondas,

Perhaps I'm being a bit insensitive, but I don't think that's unusual for this board.

Regardless of why his credit is poor, that is the reason why he is receiving these high interest rates and needing a lot of money down. We didn't make these rules, we just play by them. So why is he getting upset at the dealers?

This is why I seriously question what you do in this business. One would think you've seen this before.

Ahh well, I guess cause your name says 'Isellhondas', so that means you do.

Lovingly yours,

-Moo

madmanmoo

Bender,

I agree. That can happen. I think the price of vehicles is much more important for pre-owned vehicles than for the new. Typically, the new car customer has already done a good bit of research and it is not necessary to qualify for them. The pre-owned market has so many different makes and models. It would be a good idea to be able to direct them towards something.

Also, just because you tell them your range, it doesn't mean that is what you are going to pay exactly. Too many of the consumers on this board act like if they give out any information they will immediately be screwed. You guys have something called 'free will'. Exercise it.

-Moo

madmanmoo

Exbo,

Wasn't me, I would have sold ya. You offered a deal we could do.

Only time I start screaming is when Atlanta loses to the Cowboys in an awesome game.

-Moo

graphicguy

bend.....what's wrong with telling your sales person your looking at a Camry...or an Impala....or an Accord? That would alleviate any...."I'm looking to spend $25K"....and ending up with an Aveo.

I know what I'm willing to pay. What the salesperson shows me is up to them. If I tell them my price range is around $25K, and I'm thinking of an Accord....and...they show me a Fit, they aren't going to make a sale.

I'm of the mind that you have to find the car you want first, before you're going to make an offer, anyway.

I don't have any issues with a salesperson asking me what my price range is. I usually respond with...."let's see if you have what I want, before we get into that discussion". Never had a problem with that approach.

As far as bad credit, if I'm a sales person, I wouldn't care one bit. As long as I can get you financed and move some iron, I don't care if all 3 credit agencies report your score as "1". Hoping my F&I dept can find a lendor to pick up your note would be my only concern. How the buyer deals with the ugly interest rate is their concern....not the sales person's.

isellhondas

I have no response to you. You crossed the line with your assumptions and name calling. You have no idea what the circumstances surrounding the bad credit were.

Thankfully your post was removed.

madmanmoo

In MY experience with people with bad credit.....

People who don't pay their bills and are folks who are typically not upstanding members of society act as if they are owed something by everyone. Those people who have had hard times fall upon them do not go around blaming everyone else, they realize their situation and do their best to rectify it. The lenders are making the rules and they know that.

I have pulled thousands of peoples credit and seen great and very bad. I think that's a pretty good sample of credit that I've seen. You get used to certain things from people.

Sidenote: If you don't qualify as a salesperson, you're going to sink and drown. You MUST qualify your customer or you waste precious time.

Merriness to all!

-Moo

graphicguy

Here's a good "old, new car" sales story for you.....

A couple of years ago, I bought the "then all new" '05 Mustang GT. It was one of the first ones in the city. I had it factory ordered and was able (through a good dealership General Manager relationship) to buy it for A plan price (sister, at the time, worked for Ford). Can't remember the exact price, but it was well below invoice. This was at a time when Ford could not keep up with demand and the car was one of the hottest vehicles on the market. These were selling at MSRP, and often above.

After a few months,Demand was still far exceeding supply. Had a person who was bugging me to sell mine, because he couldn't get one. Finally, after 9 months, I agreed to sell it to him for about $1,700 more than I paid for it ($25K+).

Fast forward to yesterday. I'm still not finished Chirstmas shopping and happen to drive by the Ford dealer where I had originally bought the Mustang. In the front row, there was a car that looked suspiciously like the Mustang GT I had (kind of a unique combo....red with all red interior). Stopped into the dealership and I find the GM. I ask him if it's "my" Mustang. Lo and behold, it is. The guy who bought it from me, traded it in on a new Expedition (??????).

It had a dealer sticker on it for $23,599. That's pretty close to what I had originally paid for it new.

I told the GM that I thought that was a bit high, especially considering that new Mustangs were now being discounted. He said that the deal on the trade side was so good, he could afford to sit on it until Spring, when the coupe market would heat up, again. He also said that come Spring, they would slap some custom wheels on it. stripes and a hood scoop and make it a "special edition" car (LOL!). He didn't seem to worried about moving it, but was willing to wait until he got his price.

lrguy44

I guess you are right. But does the training and product tests and CSI score and knowledge we have gained over the past years mean anything? If I did not have my customer's interests at heart, why is 40-50% of my business repeat and referral? Maybe I could be a CPA in a few hours thru other sources! I just get tired of being dragged through the mud and insulted on a forum that asks for tales from the front lines, not insults to dealers and professional sales people. By the way snake, explain DYN to me and why some customers have to have it and others don't.

Kirstie_H

OR... if you want to avoid "incriminating" yourself, you can simply say that you're looking at vehicles with an MSRP between $20-25K. Based on the market & your research, you may know you're only willing to pay $18-23K.

graphicguy

kirstie....that works, too.

I don't know what the market is for Camries, but if I were a betting man, I'd say you can pick up an LE automatic for under a $20K price, for example.

I'd walk into the dealership. Tell them I'm looking for a Camry LE automatic in the color of my choosing.

Once found, I'd bet it would be a short conversation if I offered a few hundred over invoice to seal the deal to buy that car, given the time of year.

stickguy

I can't imagine walking into a dealership not knowing what I am there to look at, just asking for the "$25K aisle"!

I have also never been asked at the beginning what I was looking to spend, just what I am interested in looking at. It might be 1 very specific model, or maybe a couple of similar ones (like when I went in to the Honda dealer to look at CIvics, but also wanted to compare to the Accord).

I guess that at the beginning telling them exactly what I want to look at (Accord EX-L 5 speed say) pretty much nails down the price range!

Although I will admit, I have never been a payment shopper, and I guess some people really do have no clue what they want, and are just worried about what it costs.

jmonroe

…(I had no chose, he was holding my car keys)…

I actually had this happen to me once, years ago.

When it became obvious that I wasn’t going to get the deal I wanted, I asked for my keys. The salesman said, “don’t worry about your keys I’m going to sell you this car tonight”. I again asked him politely for my keys and he said the same thing. When I got up from my chair and started to come around to his side of the desk, he quickly gave me my keys saying, “you don’t have to be such a hot-head about it”. To which I said, “then don’t act like a thief, because that’s the way we handle things like this in the neighborhood I came from”.

Since I no longer trade in cars because it’s not the way to get the best price for your old car, I won’t have to put up with this kind of crap again.

jmonroe

Kirstie_H

Well, I've gone in before having an idea of what I wanted but still open to the idea of looking at vehicles in a comparable price range - vehicles that I was totally unfamiliar with, and might find appealing on close-up examination.

For example, when I got my (used) G35, I was open to several models within that price range. I also shopped the Passat and Solara. Unless I'm 100% sure on which model, I'm happy to hear other perspectives - "if you like the G35 for the size, look, & sporty drive, you might also like the studcatcher2000."

isellhondas

Are a great car to buy used. They depreciate a lot during the first two years making them a LOT of car for the money.

Super cars too!

corvette

...just asking for the "$25K aisle"!

You could ask for the "red aisle," "blue aisle," or "green aisle."

"What kind of car are you looking for?"
"A beige one!"

Kirstie_H

Yeah, I'm happy with it and of the cars I was shopping, it represented the best value for the money. I kinda liked the Solara convertible better (and I looked way cool in it), but I was shopping in the Springtime, plus, they just don't depreciate as quickly so I was going to have to pay more or settle for fewer features.

venture

I'm trying the bobst method on a Forester for the wife.

As I mentioned a few weeks ago, she likes her Santa Fe, but I have convinced her to try a Forester.

I told the saleslady exactly what I was willing to pay *delivered*.

The modified part is I also included the Santa Fe as a trade. She called about a half hour after I left the dealership and said she thinks they can do the deal, but they want to have a look at the Santa Fe first - a reasonable request and one I was going to do anyway.

I first wanted to see if it was "doable". It appears it is.

Now I have to decide if I am going to walk if they can't meet my offer. If I am sticking to the bobst method, I guess that offer is firm. (I also mentioned to her that if they can't do it now, I will wait until December 30th when they need that last unit to make their goal )

Stay tuned.

jmonroe

"A beige one!"

I'm sorry sir but we don't have an aisle like that. How bout the 25K aisle? Lets take a test drive!!

jmonroe

graphicguy

stickguy...I've actually seen some dealerships that do exactly that.....line up their new cars based on price. There's one aisle for the $25K cars...another for the $20K cars, etc. Problem there is, what if they don't have the car you want in any of their aisles? Gotta know what you want first.

Then again, someone will take a stroll down the $20K aisle, thinking..."I wonder if I can buy something in this aisle for $15K?".

kirstie...used cars are whole different animals (those G35s are nice rides, BTW). You can go to a used lot and see a whole boatload of different types of vehicles within the price range you're looking for.

On the new side, aside from some price overlap from the low pricing end of their high end offerings, or the high end pricing of the loaded up lower end offerings, there's not going to be much selection across models that price overlap.

gogiboy

"You cannot automatically presume someone is a deadbeat because of a low credit score."

Snake's point is well taken and there have been a number of posters on these forums whose experiences back him up. Now I know there are plenty of folks who have flipped houses and lost their shirts as well as folks one step away from foreclosure because they bought too much house, car, etc. I work with college students and some of them make poor financial decisions that will haunt them for years. Others are just trying to get a college education, which has become more necessary than ever and, at the same time, less affordable.

I have a colleague whose wife delivered their daughter prematurely 15 years ago. The medical bills totaled $98,000. My colleague had medical insurance that paid 80%. That made his out-of-pocket costs roughly $20K. He and his wife are very responsible and thrifty individuals, but I know very few folks who could suddenly be hit with that kind of bill and not suffer. Fortunately, his wife also had insurance coverage and her coverage was 100%. I personally know two other individuals where medical expenses forced them into bankruptcy.

I remember being denied a credit card at an appliance store (more than 20+ years ago). I had two jobs, very inexpensive rent, no car payment or other debt, but was denied credit... probably because my beacon score was too low. My crime? Not enough time spent in either job and insufficient credit history.

We all see plenty of evidence of poor decision making on these boards, but we also see individuals who are honestly trying to shoulder their burdens and make sound financial decisions about cars and who among us hasn't "been there" at some point?

Gogiboy

tsgeisel

That's the one problem with the Bobst method. If they meet your price, and you don't take it, you deserve to be one of those folks that a story will be told about here, complete with swearing and cursing.

The Bobst method isn't about the *best* price. It's about a *very good* price with the absolute minimum of negotiation, and pretty depends on knowing what you want ahead of time.

Anyway, good luck.

mac24

The downside the 'bobst method' is that if the offer is accepted without question there will always be the feeling (for some) that the offer was too high. This will haunt that type of buyer for years to come, and he will eventually convince himself that the unscrupulous dealer cheated him somehow!

grandtotal

I'd be very happy to have my offer accepted off the bat, it means that I have not given them the one (very) small bump that I will allow. Sometimes it happens like that sometimes the small bump happens and sometimes I end up buying elsewhere.

graphicguy

Nothing wrong with the bobst method. I think he bought an Accord for $700 under invoice, and was surprised the dealer accepted the offer.

Fact is, if you have confidence that your offer is "skinny", but doable, there's no reason to question whether you got a good deal. You'll KNOW you did.

Plus, he's resisted the inevitable "bump" by making one offer. When you start doing the "back and road", the price is only going to go up. The more you listen to the "bumps" and make counter offers, the more you're going to end up paying.

mac24

I'm sure you got a good deal, but there are some people who will never ever be satisfied, and if the dealer accepts their first offer it means that there must have been money left on the table!

boomchek

Ifr I can I will always try and get my mgr to accept an offer if it's doable. I don't like to grind for the sake of grinding.

cotmc

I'm in the same boat..., or will be shortly. I have a Volvo lease that ends this spring. I'll probably be considering many different cars as viable options, including several family sedans (such as an '07 Altima 3.5SE, Passat, or Accord V6); sporty compact sedans (such as a TSX, MazdaSpeed 6, or Volvo S40 T5); or several used sport sedan models (such as a G35, 325i, TL).

Unlike some purchases in the past, my price range is a little too low to for me to get excited about any one particular model. Both the redesigned '07 G35 sedan and the new Volvo hardtop convertible excite me, but they are beyond my price range. Within my price range, there's nothing that screams, "Buy me -- I'm the car you really want!". Instead, it seems I have too many reasonable options -- especially if I also consider leasing! :confuse:

sligg

What is the Bobst Method?

cotmc

"On the new side, aside from some price overlap from the low pricing end of their high end offerings, or the high end pricing of the loaded up lower end offerings, there's not going to be much selection across models that price overlap."

Oops, I now see the real point of this discussion -- the customer and sales rep working toward narrowing down choices at one dealership. Sorry if I got off-track with my previous post.

Yep, there wouldn't be any question as to which car I would be test driving at a Nissan or Honda dealer. However, there is a remote chance I would consider three different models at a VW dealership: a loaded Jetta 2.0T, Passat 2.0T, or a base Eos.

snakeweasel

He knows more about our products then we do.

No I just learn everything I can about what I am going to drop a boat load of cash onto. That usually means that there is nothing that a salesman can tell me that I don't already know about the car. The last I bought I actually read the owners manual before buying it.

Oh and snake you can't bring up the subaru salesman again because you cannot compare that kind of low end sales to highline sales.

Can I bring up the BMW salesman who didn't know what the little joystick control thingy was for?

Can I bring up the MB Salesman who didn't know where the trunk release was on the C230?

isellhondas

You actually read the Owner's Manual???

Don't you think that's just a bit over the top?

Just when I think I've heard it all....

british_rover

Sometimes I swear he just makes up stuff to one up what ever argument someone brings in.

He HAS to have the last word you know.

snakeweasel

For example, when I got my (used) G35,

G35 is a nice car, we were looking at them when we bought the Caddy. You must be enjoying it.

"if you like the G35 for the size, look, & sporty drive, you might also like the studcatcher2000."

Naw the Studcatcher2000 is no good. :P

jipster

Nothing better than to read the owners manual immediately after a new car purchase. Never heard of anyone reading it before though. I guess it would be a pretty good idea... snakes usually right about this kind of stuff.

snakeweasel

if the dealer accepts their first offer it means that there must have been money left on the table!

I always take the approach that there will be money left on the table, on both sides. That means not getting the lowest price but getting a good price. It also means that I don't think its worth it to play games and haggle for hours for that extra $50 or so.

snakeweasel

What is the Bobst Method?

Its offering a price on a car (a well researched and thought out price). If its accepted you have a deal, if not you walk away. Sometimes they will follow you out and accept your offer, sometimes they will call you up (if they have your number) and accept it, sometimes you will not hear from the dealership.

snakeweasel

You actually read the Owner's Manual???

Yep I was spending big bucks on it and I wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into.

Don't you think that's just a bit over the top?

Maybe it is (I know people that never read their owners manual even after owning the car for years) but I wanted to get to know the car and what it offered.

albell

I, too, have read owner's manuals before buying my last two cars. Wish I could have gotten one before picking up my new Audi A6 yesterday, so that I could have had more of a feel of the MMI interface so that I could ask detailed questions. Even if you have a more-than-basic understanding of computer interfaces, there's just no way a salesperson can explain all of the intricacies of the new (and mostly maddening) electronic controllers.

Amusing anecdote: the salesperson was getting all flustered that he couldn't get the nav system to initialize. I kept telling him -- politely at first, then more firmly -- that we needed to bring the car out of the underground service area. At least he laughed, in the end. Sigh...

venture

"That's the one problem with the Bobst method. If they meet your price, and you don't take it, you deserve to be one of those folks that a story will be told about here, complete with swearing and cursing.

The Bobst method isn't about the *best* price. It's about a *very good* price with the absolute minimum of negotiation, and pretty depends on knowing what you want ahead of time."

If they meet my offer, I will definitely buy the car. Afterall, that's why I spent time researching vehicles and their prices, finding out what incentives are available, and visiting different dealers before I made my offer.

If they do meet my offer it will be a very good price - probably not the best, but close enough to save the frustration of haggling over a hundred dollars or so.

Of course I will never know what the manufacturer is offering the dealer as far as sales incentives and such, but I don't care about that. With everything I buy, someone makes some money. Dealers should be no different.

gogiboy

"Its offering a price on a car (a well researched and thought out price). If its accepted you have a deal, if not you walk away. Sometimes they will follow you out and accept your offer, sometimes they will call you up (if they have your number) and accept it, sometimes you will not hear from the dealership."

... and, if it's not accepted, bobst moves on to another dealer while bumping his offer by some (predetermined?) increment until he finds a dealer that accepts his offer. Obviously, bobst's system works much better if you have a number of easily accessible dealers and your chosen car/options are readily available.

It has worked well for bobst and some others on this forum and has spawned some variations. Hey bobst, have you used this method on other readily available consumer goods like HD TVs, computers, appliances, etc?

Gogiboy

venture

I hate replying to my own post but - I forgot to mention, we were unable to get to the dealership for them to appraise the trade tonight and won't be able to get there until Friday morning. Those of you waiting with bated breath will just have to wait a few more days.

I remember when I bought my BMW - it was late in the model year, E46's were getting scarce, and there was a substantial buyers incentive. My dealer had to go from here in central PA to New Jersey to get the car I wanted. I accepted the fact that the dealer was going to make more money on the deal than I would have normally liked, but they went out of their way to make it happen. They made a few bucks and I was satisfied.

bobst

On other items, I just compare prices. We bought a couple appliances two years ago and I just compared the prices at Lowes and Home Depot and bought them where they were cheaper.

plekto

Afterall, even $200 buys a lot of gas - way more than enough to drive across town to get that good deal on that Hi-Def set, for instance.

Oh - and yes, there are *some* roads near L.A. that are good for off-road. So far I've spent $600 on the thing getting it back to being road-worthy and have another $200-300 to go, or about $1400-1500 total, including buying it. Then it'll be worth about $1500 if I wanted to sell it. ie-no loss since I'm doing almost all of the fixes myself.

Beats making payments. But darn it - I really DID want a newer car. I just got tired of the games. Oh well, next fall, all four of my wish-list vehicles will be in the 12-15K price range iinstead of the 15-20K range, so I'll not have to compromise.