Yeah, I'm sure when I go to trade in my Audi in the year 2030 they will say that they can give me 2,000 dollars with the receipt, and/or $1,000 without it. :P
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I got this handy little Duracell power pack for xmas. It can be used as a jump box (started my Mustang with it, the 7 year old 84 month battery needed replacing), has an air pump (haven't tried this), a removable flashlight (used that), and a couple of 110 plugs built in. Those work great for lamps. The 2 people I lent it to for lamps want one. Connecting a radio has a hum through the speakers.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
"...I remember when 350 CCA was a powerful battery..."
I remember when they suggested that the CCA of your battery should match the cu in. displacement of your motor. Since my first car had a 318 cu in. displacement I always asked for a battery with that many CCA.
The last time I did that the guy laughed at me. :sick:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Seriously need to finish sorting out the brakes.. also have new tires in transit, the ones on it are, *shudder*, r-r-ra-radials! And dry rotted ones too. Coker is sending me some lovely Firestone Deluxe Champion Wide Whitewalls
The Tuesday after that is my next NYC doc visit. Will see if I actually know more about the when portion of the program. As soon I actually retire I have to go redo the FAFSA form for my daughter...... She finished one year at the county college and has decided to take a semester off with the intention of moving on to a state four year college.
Life stays interesting....
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Cars like that bring silly money if they really are THAT nice.... Problem with a lot of sites is they don't add enough or deduct enough for exceptionally lousy or nice cars.
Look up KBB trade in on, say, an 07 BMW 528i with 175k, then change miles to 295k, $ should be about the same.
$6500 isnt out of line IMO if it looks and runs like a 20k mile car should.
Those old Fords bring back memories. In Canada we also had Meteors which were really Fords with slightly different trimmings. These were sold by Mercury dealers so they would have a car in the Chev, Ford, Plymouth range to sell.
When we took our Meteors to the USA people would stare at them...they thought we had a customized Ford.
That year was the first overhead valve V-8 for Ford and it was a one year only engine with 239 cubic inches. Same displacement as the V-8 flathead it replaced.
the front plate holder is the same color as the car. It's a dead giveaway for a front repaint. It wouldn't hurt to take it for a drive to eliminate any funny smells, leaks.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Things are hanging for the moment - treating it like we have been the last 5 years while they look for a donor since none of my brothers matched - well three of them matched each other but none matched me! Grrrrr.
Next appointment is the 20th. In the meantime I deal with the local doc. The chemo that builds up the hemoglobin drives down the white count so I have to get shots four days a week (40+ mile round trip) until the white count gets better and we repeat the whole process. Swell. You know the drill.....
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Better not a run a modern car with the battery disconnected.. you can fry lots of stuff.
I've heard that too but I couldn't understand why because if the alternator can take the load there should be no problems. When I jumped cars because of shorted batteries I told the people to minimize the load that they put on the alternator. Run only the essential stuff. In the summer that meant no A/C.
I don't know how "modern" a car has to be to fall into this category but I did this to an '09 Camry for a fellow employee in the spring of this year and he didn't have any problems. We walked out a little late that night and his car wouldn't start. We both figured it was a shorted battery and we proved it when a cable from his car was disconnected and then the car fired right up.
I've heard the same from a few other people that have done this to so called "modern" cars without any problems. Maybe it applies to a particular make but again I can't understand why if the alternator can take the load.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
My guess is that cars are pretty much designed to operate at a constant rate of flow of power from the battery and the alternators power will fluxuate depending on speed. My guess that there is a slim but real chance of something like a spike damaging some electrical component
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Does your street intersect with Skipper? I want to send you something. Since I am a cheap Yankee, I want to make sure I don't send it to the wrong person. l
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Better not a run a modern car with the battery disconnected.. you can fry lots of stuff.
I've heard that too but I couldn't understand why because if the alternator can take the load there should be no problems.
It's the other way around. When you run the alternator with nowhere to discharge the current it's generating, it will almost certainly let the smoke out of one or more of it's diodes.
Pontiacs with Chevy engines and suspensions, transmissions that belonged in a two year older model etc.
There weren't too many Canadian versions of American cars. Pontiac was one of the main ones. Around 1960 when Pontiac introduced wide track, bringing the wheels to the outside edge of the car, Pontiacs in Canada were built on Chev frames, and had short track...the wheels were inset about 6 inches and it looked a bit silly. Guess they could save money, but it is pretty silly to introduce something like wide track as a driving feature, then make the cars in Canada and they ignore all of this new science.
I can see where the manuals in a garage in the US could leave out the changes in a Canadian made model. Today they could cover that with computer programs, very easily.
My guess is that cars are pretty much designed to operate at a constant rate of flow of power from the battery and the alternators power will fluxuate depending on speed.
Again, the other way around. It's designed to operate at a highly variable rate of demand on the battery and alternator. Everything from starting on a cold winter morning when you have the rear window defroster, the heater blower, the radio, the heated seats, the wipers, the headlights, all switched on and then you turn the key to start it, to cruising down the highway with nothing running except the engine, and every other scenario you can think of in-between.
Think of the battery as a storage tank and the alternator as the pump that keeps it full. The more you draw from the tank the harder the pump has to work to top it back up. If you disconnect the pump from the tank it'll work flat out until it blows a fuse, or in this particular case a diode.
I wish you the best of luck! If there is anything I can do, please let me know. If you need a new sump pump for your basement or something plumbing related, I'd love to help.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Think of the battery as a storage tank and the alternator as the pump that keeps it full. The more you draw from the tank the harder the pump has to work to top it back up. If you disconnect the pump from the tank it'll work flat out until it blows a fuse, or in this particular case a diode.
You're right the battery is the storage tank and the alternator is what keeps it full. However, I said not to load down the car with other than the essential devices. Lights at night, no A/C under any circumstances and the alternator can handle that with no problem. If the electrical system in the car didn't have a regulator then no loading the alternator WOULD be a problem. There is no questioning that. That's why cars have always had voltage regulators going way back to the cars with generators with the old style mechanical relay type regulators. The modern day electronic regulators are so much better than those antiquated things.
Giving a diode too much voltage will blow it but not with the regulators that exist today in cars.
I still need a good reason why a car today can't safely run on an alternator that isn't being asked to supply an unlimited load.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
"You had to be pretty poor at lab work to fail this experiment (although there is someone in here who could do it.)
LOL! I know that was written for my benefit. At least you were courteous enough not to mention my name. Actually, I have a little surprise for you. Back in the old days, one of the things that my father succeeded in teaching me about cars was how to check and test a car battery. As you may recall, he didn't succeed in teaching me much. I did learn how to keep the right amount of water in each cell---about 3/4 to the top, but never all the way. I also learned how to use the red and black testing machine---reading the dial for the correct voltage.
Here's the kicker that will blow your mind. The summer after my freshman year in college, I couldn't find a summer job. I finally got hired at a service station. When I told my dad, he said, "You're working WHERE?" At any rate, my job was to detail cars and wait on the general public. I knew how to do the following: Pump gas, check oil, check transmision fluid, check brake fluid, check power steering fluid, check battery, check radiator, check tire pressure, and change a tire. After the first month, my dad ran into the service station owner. He asked him how I was doing. The owner said, "He's doing fine. He has a way with the customers. They always ask for him. He also does one hell of a job washing cars." The only reason that I know this is because my mother told me that she was standing there when he said it. My father would never have admitted that I knew a damn thing about a car. See. I wasn't always totally helpless.
As for lab work, my friends bet me that as an English/History major I would never ace the zoology lab exam. We had to dissect a frog...ugh! I had memorized the body parts and their functions from the text. The night before the exam, I asked a science major friend to dissect one with me. He graciously assisted me. The next morning I was ready. I surprised myself and the professor. I made an A-. What do they say---when the going gets tough, the tough get going? :P
I went back to read your original post (my reply was to snakeweasel I think).
".......When I jumped cars because of shorted batteries I told the people to minimize the load that they put on the alternator. Run only the essential stuff. In the summer that meant no A/C.........."
When you say a 'shorted' battery I'm sure you mean 'overly discharged'. I'm not being pedantic because anything other than something like a tire iron shorting the battery would either melt or catch fire. Most car batteries get excessively discharged either by a component failure in the car causing that component to draw current when it shouldn't, or by a human failure such as leaving the lights on. Batteries can also fail due to old age or because one or more of the internal connections that join each cell fails. Finally, the battery can gradually go flat because it's not being charged properly, either due to a failing alternator, slipping belt, or faulty voltage regulator.
Your advice to use minimal electric power was good, because once the car was started that would allow the alternator to apply most of it's output to recharging the battery in order to bring the battery up to a full state of charge in as short a time as possible. However, had they not taken your advice it would just have meant that the battery would have taken longer to recharge.
Now we get to the part I don't understand:
We walked out a little late that night and his car wouldn't start. We both figured it was a shorted battery and we proved it when a cable from his car was disconnected and then the car fired right up......"
He has a battery that's so discharged that the car won't start, but when a cable was disconnected it fired right up. I don't disbelieve that's what happened, but there must be more to it. To start with, what was the cable that was disconnected?
On to the last part:
Giving a diode too much voltage will blow it but not with the regulators that exist today in cars.
I think you're misunderstanding the function of the voltage regulator in relation to the alternator.
The voltage regulator controls the DC output from the rectifier and ideally holds it at around 14.7 volts. However, unlike a generator that would be found in earlier vehicles, an alternator produces AC current which first has to rectified into DC by the diodes, which act as one way valves and only allow the current to pass in one direction.
I still need a good reason why a car today can't safely run on an alternator that isn't being asked to supply an unlimited load.
In order to control its output the alternator needs an electrical load to push against, which is the battery. With a fully charged battery the output from the alternator is very low as the battery is effectively pushing back against it. When the battery charge drops the alternator output increases, until the battery reaches 10.5 volts (the point at which it is technically fully discharged) when the alternator will be giving its maximum safe output.
Now, if you disconnect the alternator from the battery it has no load pushing against it and its output rises to a point that the diodes can't handle......and that's when the smoke gets let out.
Obviously the analogies aren't perfect and the explanation is very basic, but I hope it makes a little sense.
Now, about that cable, which when removed allowed the car to start........... :confuse:
"...they don't add enough or deduct enough for exceptionally lousy or nice caes..."
Yeah, I've noticed that. IIRC Edmunds only added $450 to that car for milage. I'd figure at least a couple grand. I think older cars in general are tough to get a good read on because they are fewer in number and of such variible condition.
Of course getting a 17yo car in perfect condition with 20K miles for half the asking price is part of the fantasy.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
IIRC Edmunds only added $450 to that car for mileage. I'd figure at least a couple grand.
Well I would expect that the rate per mile of depreciation drops as you add miles on the car. So that would mean adding 20K miles onto a car at 100K miles has a lot more effect on the value than adding 20K when the car has 200K miles. So with high mileage cars adding miles has a minimal effect on the value.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Does your street intersect with Skipper? I want to send you something.
Richard's will?
Yes, it does. We're on the corner of Skipper.
What I really need right now is someone who can find where the filter for my furnace is in my crawl space. We got a new unit and it's not in the same place. The old one I at least what size it was and could get it that far. Those days seem to be over.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Looks as if Explorer has taken my place. I guess that I can spend your portion now.
Speaking of spending, I found out the other day that we need a new roof. I knew that it was coming up soon, but didn't realize that it would be now. I had three inspections and three estimates. Funny how estimates can vary. For a 30 year architectural roof with flashing, ridge vent, felt, clean up, etc., I was quoted $10,500; $8,900; and $7,600. Here is the surprise. I called four references on each of the three companies. The company that bid $7,600 had the most satisfied customers. Their warranty of 15 years on workmanship surpassed the other two who offered 5 years and 10 years. Their free plywood replacement was four sheets rather than the two sheets offered by the other two companies. I don't believe that I'll need any plywood, but it was interesting just the same. I selected the three oldest companies in the area for my estimates. Their experience ranged between 25 and 35 years. I also made sure that they didn't subcontract their crews. When you put out this kind of money, it pays to do plenty of research....just as with cars.
I ask as none of them seemed to list ice and water shield.
I'm in Boston and when I had my roof done I asked how much more to ice and water shield the entire dormer roof? I was about $400 more so I told them to go ahead.
Yes, it always pays to get at LEAST 3 quotes, I prefer 4. Even with a slow construction economy, residential builders (not my forte) seem to be all over the place (and generally on the high side). I guess the theory is a lot of people are even too lazy to get 3 estimates.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'm in southeastern North Carolina---Pinehurst to be exact. We get a couple of six inch snows each year. When we roof, we are more interested in the wind resistence due to hurricanes. The company that I chose guarantees 120 mph wind resistence. The other two companies only guaranteed 70 mph wind resistence. Isn't it interesting how priorities are different depending on where you live? None of these companies had ice and water shield as an option. As for 120 mph wind resistence, I doubt that the roof would hold. Still, it doesn't hurt to try. The 70 mph will work because it was tested on a former house that I owned when hurricane Hugo hit us badly. In fact, it held at 95 mph. The 120 mph might sustain us at 90 mph. Resistence above that is doubtful. It's pretty much a guessing game when a hurricane strikes.
Isn't it interesting how priorities are different depending on where you live? None of these companies had ice and water shield as an option.
Funny - I didn't even give wind resistance any thought when picking shingles.
Around here, code requires the bottom 3 feet of underlyment to be ice and water shield to prevent ice dams from backing up into the house. The better roofers go 6 feet because minimum code doesn't reach the first plywood joint at 4' up.
When it snows do you get icicles? If so, you probably get ice dams and water under the shingles.
Sorry that it took awhile for me to get back to you but I was involved with an electrical system problem here at work which was a little beyond the simple workings of a cars electrical system.
When you say a 'shorted' battery I'm sure you mean 'overly discharged'.
No, I mean a battery that has a high resistance short but it is enough to suck too much power from the battery and electrical system of the car that is providing the jump start. This type of short can be the result of the battery wearing out and the material that falls from the lead plates into the bottom of the battery case rising until it touches at least 2 cells in the battery. However that is not the only way a high resistance short can occur. If a battery is not securely held to the battery tray the constant vibration can cause a high resistance short of the plates in the battery. There are almost as many deaths to batteries from shaking it to death as there are from batteries that just wear out from the deterioration of the plates in the battery.
Your advice to use minimal electric power was good, because once the car was started that would allow the alternator to apply most of it's output to recharging the battery in order to bring the battery up to a full state of charge in as short a time as possible. However, had they not taken your advice it would just have meant that the battery would have taken longer to recharge.
I was talking about not loading down the alternator more than you had to by not connecting the suspect battery to the cars electrical system. I agree with what you said about minimizing the load when you jump start a car that has been run down because the lights were left on. The less you load down the electrical system the shorter the time period for the battery to regain its full charge.
Now we get to the part I don't understand:
He has a battery that's so discharged that the car won't start, but when a cable was disconnected it fired right up. I don't disbelieve that's what happened, but there must be more to it. To start with, what was the cable that was disconnected?
There isn’t any more to it. Like I said above, the battery was more than discharged, it was partially shorted. The cable that was disconnected was one of the battery cables. It really doesn’t make much difference which one it is but I prefer to disconnect the positive cable. The important thing is that it is no longer connected to the battery which in turn connects it to the cars electrical system. Again, disconnecting either cable will remove the battery (which is partially shorted) from the cars electrical system. Leaving a known shorted battery connected after the car has been started will really load down the alternator and because of this constant high current drain (that is beyond the current rating of the alternator) this can cause the alternator to fail prematurely. That’s when you can get the smoking diodes you have talked about. A way to prove that a suspect battery is putting too much load on the car's electrical system is to temporarily re-connect the battery cable to the battery. The alternator will have a high pitch squealing sound that I refer to as “singing”.
In order to control its output the alternator needs an electrical load to push against, which is the battery.
An alternator DOES NOT need an electrical load. The alternator must be capable of SUPPLYING the electrical load for the system where it is used. The alternator can run all day long without any load (or very small loads) on it but once a larger load is demanded from it, the alternator must be able to handle that load. If what you are saying was true, that means that we would have to have the same accessories operating all the time to have the alternator operating correctly but we know that is not how we operate a car.
Let’s not confuse the load, which is the power that is consumed by the operating accessories with the current (amps) and with the voltage which is what pushes the amps through the circuit. The voltage regulator controls the VOLTAGE (just like its name implies) so that the current rating of the alternator, and in turn its power handling capability can be met and not exceeded. The more you load down an electrical circuit the more the voltage tries to drop but the voltage regulator is what keeps the voltage relatively constant under the varying electrical loads (within the rating of the regulator and alternator). A given device will try to draw the amount of power for which it was designed. Power is watts (watts (P) is voltage (E) times current (I) P=EI). If the voltage drops, the device will draw more current to consume the same amount of power. This higher current is what burns out components that don’t have the proper operating voltage. Trying to run a 220 volt motor on an un-fused 110 volt supply will burn out that motor because it drew twice the current than what it was designed to handle. That was another electrical lab experiment to show that the fuse would blow to protect the motor. Sometimes if the fuse doesn’t blow fast enough the device will go first. So it’s not a good idea to challenge the circuit’s design.
Now, if you disconnect the alternator from the battery it has no load pushing against it and its output rises to a point that the diodes can't handle......and that's when the smoke gets let out.
I just explained why this won’t happen when the voltage regulator is working properly. Also, besides having the battery, which is a load when it is being charged, there are plenty of circuits in the car to put a load on the alternator.
Now, having said all this, I have also heard that running cars without a battery can cause problems but I have not experienced it myself when loads are held low. Someone told me that BMW’s don’t like it when the battery is not in the car but I never tried this with a BMW. BMW’s seem to be in a world of their own.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
can you recommend some kind of back up system for mine? Not looking for a generator (would not be able to hook into it anyway, unless I did a big whole house unit). But is there some kind of battery back up that is not hugely expensive? I'm thinking of one that would plug in between the pump and the outlet, and trickle charge when the power is on, and automatically take over when the power goes out?
My pump works hard in the big rains, and I don't like to think about the results if our power takes a long hit at the same time!
A battery backup is a fantastic thing to have, but the problem is that they dont work for all that long. Maybe 4 day max.
My Dad is looking to put a Zoeller Home Guard in his basement. You'll have to have a plumber run a water line. It uses the water to siphon out water. Pretty cool, huh?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
My Dad is looking to put a Zoeller Home Guard in his basement. You'll have to have a plumber run a water line.
You say "you'll" like in 'mako1a'. What makes you think he can't do the plumbing himself just like you plumbers do? I'd be willing to bet that he has a Bernzomatic torch just like you guys.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Comments
Well thats what you get for not keeping the receipt.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It can be used as a jump box (started my Mustang with it, the 7 year old 84 month battery needed replacing), has an air pump (haven't tried this), a removable flashlight (used that), and a couple of 110 plugs built in. Those work great for lamps. The 2 people I lent it to for lamps want one. Connecting a radio has a hum through the speakers.
I remember when they suggested that the CCA of your battery should match the cu in. displacement of your motor. Since my first car had a 318 cu in. displacement I always asked for a battery with that many CCA.
The last time I did that the guy laughed at me. :sick:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
As soon as I get it to where I trust it for a long drive I am going to bring it down the shore so Sir Fezo himself can pilot it.
Seriously need to finish sorting out the brakes.. also have new tires in transit, the ones on it are, *shudder*, r-r-ra-radials! And dry rotted ones too. Coker is sending me some lovely Firestone Deluxe Champion Wide Whitewalls
Not this weekend.. maybe weekend after?
That is one sweet ride. I'd be afraid to take it out of the driveway for fear of breaking it.
This is one of my fantasy cars:
http://tampa.craigslist.org/psc/ctd/2588008671.html
Has unrealisticly low milage which means that every seal probably leaks but still... :shades:
Of course that price is outrageous. KBB says $4500, Edmunds says $2300 with the truth somewhere in between.
But this is just fantasy so who cares. I can dream of picking it up on a Florida vacation and motoring back up the east coast with the top down.
I'd like to hear more of how you acquired the Ford. Especially how you tell junk from gold on a car that old.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
The Tuesday after that is my next NYC doc visit. Will see if I actually know more about the when portion of the program. As soon I actually retire I have to go redo the FAFSA form for my daughter...... She finished one year at the county college and has decided to take a semester off with the intention of moving on to a state four year college.
Life stays interesting....
Cars like that bring silly money if they really are THAT nice.... Problem with a lot of sites is they don't add enough or deduct enough for exceptionally lousy or nice cars.
Look up KBB trade in on, say, an 07 BMW 528i with 175k, then change miles to 295k, $ should be about the same.
$6500 isnt out of line IMO if it looks and runs like a 20k mile car should.
How's things going BTW?
Very nicely explained...I really learned something today.
You gotta get rid of those cheap jumper cables anything less than #8 AWG copper is not good.
Oh, oh, now he is going to try to take those back to the Dollar Store to try to get a refund.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Those old Fords bring back memories. In Canada we also had Meteors which were really Fords with slightly different trimmings. These were sold by Mercury dealers so they would have a car in the Chev, Ford, Plymouth range to sell.
When we took our Meteors to the USA people would stare at them...they thought we had a customized Ford.
1954 Meteor
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That year was the first overhead valve V-8 for Ford and it was a one year only engine with 239 cubic inches. Same displacement as the V-8 flathead it replaced.
Pontiacs with Chevy engines and suspensions, transmissions that belonged in a two year older model etc.
Finding the right parts could be a challenge.
It's a dead giveaway for a front repaint.
It wouldn't hurt to take it for a drive to eliminate any funny smells, leaks.
Next appointment is the 20th. In the meantime I deal with the local doc. The chemo that builds up the hemoglobin drives down the white count so I have to get shots four days a week (40+ mile round trip) until the white count gets better and we repeat the whole process. Swell. You know the drill.....
A lot of correct english posters here, but not about their math.
I've heard that too but I couldn't understand why because if the alternator can take the load there should be no problems. When I jumped cars because of shorted batteries I told the people to minimize the load that they put on the alternator. Run only the essential stuff. In the summer that meant no A/C.
I don't know how "modern" a car has to be to fall into this category but I did this to an '09 Camry for a fellow employee in the spring of this year and he didn't have any problems. We walked out a little late that night and his car wouldn't start. We both figured it was a shorted battery and we proved it when a cable from his car was disconnected and then the car fired right up.
I've heard the same from a few other people that have done this to so called "modern" cars without any problems. Maybe it applies to a particular make but again I can't understand why if the alternator can take the load.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I want to send you something.
Since I am a cheap Yankee, I want to make sure I don't send it to the wrong person.
I've heard that too but I couldn't understand why because if the alternator can take the load there should be no problems.
It's the other way around. When you run the alternator with nowhere to discharge the current it's generating, it will almost certainly let the smoke out of one or more of it's diodes.
There weren't too many Canadian versions of American cars. Pontiac was one of the main ones. Around 1960 when Pontiac introduced wide track, bringing the wheels to the outside edge of the car, Pontiacs in Canada were built on Chev frames, and had short track...the wheels were inset about 6 inches and it looked a bit silly. Guess they could save money, but it is pretty silly to introduce something like wide track as a driving feature, then make the cars in Canada and they ignore all of this new science.
I can see where the manuals in a garage in the US could leave out the changes in a Canadian made model. Today they could cover that with computer programs, very easily.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Again, the other way around. It's designed to operate at a highly variable rate of demand on the battery and alternator.
Everything from starting on a cold winter morning when you have the rear window defroster, the heater blower, the radio, the heated seats, the wipers, the headlights, all switched on and then you turn the key to start it, to cruising down the highway with nothing running except the engine, and every other scenario you can think of in-between.
Think of the battery as a storage tank and the alternator as the pump that keeps it full.
The more you draw from the tank the harder the pump has to work to top it back up.
If you disconnect the pump from the tank it'll work flat out until it blows a fuse, or in this particular case a diode.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
The more you draw from the tank the harder the pump has to work to top it back up.
If you disconnect the pump from the tank it'll work flat out until it blows a fuse, or in this particular case a diode.
You're right the battery is the storage tank and the alternator is what keeps it full. However, I said not to load down the car with other than the essential devices. Lights at night, no A/C under any circumstances and the alternator can handle that with no problem. If the electrical system in the car didn't have a regulator then no loading the alternator WOULD be a problem. There is no questioning that. That's why cars have always had voltage regulators going way back to the cars with generators with the old style mechanical relay type regulators. The modern day electronic regulators are so much better than those antiquated things.
Giving a diode too much voltage will blow it but not with the regulators that exist today in cars.
I still need a good reason why a car today can't safely run on an alternator that isn't being asked to supply an unlimited load.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
LOL! I know that was written for my benefit. At least you were courteous enough not to mention my name. Actually, I have a little surprise for you. Back in the old days, one of the things that my father succeeded in teaching me about cars was how to check and test a car battery. As you may recall, he didn't succeed in teaching me much. I did learn how to keep the right amount of water in each cell---about 3/4 to the top, but never all the way. I also learned how to use the red and black testing machine---reading the dial for the correct voltage.
Here's the kicker that will blow your mind. The summer after my freshman year in college, I couldn't find a summer job. I finally got hired at a service station. When I told my dad, he said, "You're working WHERE?" At any rate, my job was to detail cars and wait on the general public. I knew how to do the following: Pump gas, check oil, check transmision fluid, check brake fluid, check power steering fluid, check battery, check radiator, check tire pressure, and change a tire. After the first month, my dad ran into the service station owner. He asked him how I was doing. The owner said, "He's doing fine. He has a way with the customers. They always ask for him. He also does one hell of a job washing cars." The only reason that I know this is because my mother told me that she was standing there when he said it. My father would never have admitted that I knew a damn thing about a car.
As for lab work, my friends bet me that as an English/History major I would never ace the zoology lab exam. We had to dissect a frog...ugh! I had memorized the body parts and their functions from the text. The night before the exam, I asked a science major friend to dissect one with me. He graciously assisted me. The next morning I was ready. I surprised myself and the professor. I made an A-. What do they say---when the going gets tough, the tough get going? :P
Richard
".......When I jumped cars because of shorted batteries I told the people to minimize the load that they put on the alternator. Run only the essential stuff. In the summer that meant no A/C.........."
When you say a 'shorted' battery I'm sure you mean 'overly discharged'.
I'm not being pedantic because anything other than something like a tire iron shorting the battery would either melt or catch fire.
Most car batteries get excessively discharged either by a component failure in the car causing that component to draw current when it shouldn't, or by a human failure such as leaving the lights on.
Batteries can also fail due to old age or because one or more of the internal connections that join each cell fails.
Finally, the battery can gradually go flat because it's not being charged properly, either due to a failing alternator, slipping belt, or faulty voltage regulator.
Your advice to use minimal electric power was good, because once the car was started that would allow the alternator to apply most of it's output to recharging the battery in order to bring the battery up to a full state of charge in as short a time as possible.
However, had they not taken your advice it would just have meant that the battery would have taken longer to recharge.
Now we get to the part I don't understand:
We walked out a little late that night and his car wouldn't start. We both figured it was a shorted battery and we proved it when a cable from his car was disconnected and then the car fired right up......"
He has a battery that's so discharged that the car won't start, but when a cable was disconnected it fired right up.
I don't disbelieve that's what happened, but there must be more to it.
To start with, what was the cable that was disconnected?
On to the last part:
Giving a diode too much voltage will blow it but not with the regulators that exist today in cars.
I think you're misunderstanding the function of the voltage regulator in relation to the alternator.
The voltage regulator controls the DC output from the rectifier and ideally holds it at around 14.7 volts.
However, unlike a generator that would be found in earlier vehicles, an alternator produces AC current which first has to rectified into DC by the diodes, which act as one way valves and only allow the current to pass in one direction.
I still need a good reason why a car today can't safely run on an alternator that isn't being asked to supply an unlimited load.
In order to control its output the alternator needs an electrical load to push against, which is the battery.
With a fully charged battery the output from the alternator is very low as the battery is effectively pushing back against it.
When the battery charge drops the alternator output increases, until the battery reaches 10.5 volts (the point at which it is technically fully discharged) when the alternator will be giving its maximum safe output.
Now, if you disconnect the alternator from the battery it has no load pushing against it and its output rises to a point that the diodes can't handle......and that's when the smoke gets let out.
Obviously the analogies aren't perfect and the explanation is very basic, but I hope it makes a little sense.
Now, about that cable, which when removed allowed the car to start........... :confuse:
Yeah, I've noticed that. IIRC Edmunds only added $450 to that car for milage. I'd figure at least a couple grand. I think older cars in general are tough to get a good read on because they are fewer in number and of such variible condition.
Of course getting a 17yo car in perfect condition with 20K miles for half the asking price is part of the fantasy.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Wow, good eye. :surprise:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Well I would expect that the rate per mile of depreciation drops as you add miles on the car. So that would mean adding 20K miles onto a car at 100K miles has a lot more effect on the value than adding 20K when the car has 200K miles. So with high mileage cars adding miles has a minimal effect on the value.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I want to send you something.
Richard's will?
Yes, it does. We're on the corner of Skipper.
What I really need right now is someone who can find where the filter for my furnace is in my crawl space. We got a new unit and it's not in the same place. The old one I at least what size it was and could get it that far. Those days seem to be over.
Looks as if Explorer has taken my place. I guess that I can spend your portion now.
Speaking of spending, I found out the other day that we need a new roof. I knew that it was coming up soon, but didn't realize that it would be now. I had three inspections and three estimates. Funny how estimates can vary. For a 30 year architectural roof with flashing, ridge vent, felt, clean up, etc., I was quoted $10,500; $8,900; and $7,600. Here is the surprise. I called four references on each of the three companies. The company that bid $7,600 had the most satisfied customers. Their warranty of 15 years on workmanship surpassed the other two who offered 5 years and 10 years. Their free plywood replacement was four sheets rather than the two sheets offered by the other two companies. I don't believe that I'll need any plywood, but it was interesting just the same. I selected the three oldest companies in the area for my estimates. Their experience ranged between 25 and 35 years. I also made sure that they didn't subcontract their crews. When you put out this kind of money, it pays to do plenty of research....just as with cars.
Richard
I ask as none of them seemed to list ice and water shield.
I'm in Boston and when I had my roof done I asked how much more to ice and water shield the entire dormer roof? I was about $400 more so I told them to go ahead.
Richard
Funny - I didn't even give wind resistance any thought when picking shingles.
Around here, code requires the bottom 3 feet of underlyment to be ice and water shield to prevent ice dams from backing up into the house. The better roofers go 6 feet because minimum code doesn't reach the first plywood joint at 4' up.
When it snows do you get icicles? If so, you probably get ice dams and water under the shingles.
That LeBaron might be worth $6500, but only if it was driven by Jon Voight--the proctologist, not the actor.
Gogiboy
When you say a 'shorted' battery I'm sure you mean 'overly discharged'.
No, I mean a battery that has a high resistance short but it is enough to suck too much power from the battery and electrical system of the car that is providing the jump start. This type of short can be the result of the battery wearing out and the material that falls from the lead plates into the bottom of the battery case rising until it touches at least 2 cells in the battery. However that is not the only way a high resistance short can occur. If a battery is not securely held to the battery tray the constant vibration can cause a high resistance short of the plates in the battery. There are almost as many deaths to batteries from shaking it to death as there are from batteries that just wear out from the deterioration of the plates in the battery.
Your advice to use minimal electric power was good, because once the car was started that would allow the alternator to apply most of it's output to recharging the battery in order to bring the battery up to a full state of charge in as short a time as possible.
However, had they not taken your advice it would just have meant that the battery would have taken longer to recharge.
I was talking about not loading down the alternator more than you had to by not connecting the suspect battery to the cars electrical system. I agree with what you said about minimizing the load when you jump start a car that has been run down because the lights were left on. The less you load down the electrical system the shorter the time period for the battery to regain its full charge.
Now we get to the part I don't understand:
He has a battery that's so discharged that the car won't start, but when a cable was disconnected it fired right up.
I don't disbelieve that's what happened, but there must be more to it.
To start with, what was the cable that was disconnected?
There isn’t any more to it. Like I said above, the battery was more than discharged, it was partially shorted. The cable that was disconnected was one of the battery cables. It really doesn’t make much difference which one it is but I prefer to disconnect the positive cable. The important thing is that it is no longer connected to the battery which in turn connects it to the cars electrical system. Again, disconnecting either cable will remove the battery (which is partially shorted) from the cars electrical system. Leaving a known shorted battery connected after the car has been started will really load down the alternator and because of this constant high current drain (that is beyond the current rating of the alternator) this can cause the alternator to fail prematurely. That’s when you can get the smoking diodes you have talked about. A way to prove that a suspect battery is putting too much load on the car's electrical system is to temporarily re-connect the battery cable to the battery. The alternator will have a high pitch squealing sound that I refer to as “singing”.
In order to control its output the alternator needs an electrical load to push against, which is the battery.
An alternator DOES NOT need an electrical load. The alternator must be capable of SUPPLYING the electrical load for the system where it is used. The alternator can run all day long without any load (or very small loads) on it but once a larger load is demanded from it, the alternator must be able to handle that load. If what you are saying was true, that means that we would have to have the same accessories operating all the time to have the alternator operating correctly but we know that is not how we operate a car.
Let’s not confuse the load, which is the power that is consumed by the operating accessories with the current (amps) and with the voltage which is what pushes the amps through the circuit. The voltage regulator controls the VOLTAGE (just like its name implies) so that the current rating of the alternator, and in turn its power handling capability can be met and not exceeded. The more you load down an electrical circuit the more the voltage tries to drop but the voltage regulator is what keeps the voltage relatively constant under the varying electrical loads (within the rating of the regulator and alternator). A given device will try to draw the amount of power for which it was designed. Power is watts (watts (P) is voltage (E) times current (I) P=EI). If the voltage drops, the device will draw more current to consume the same amount of power. This higher current is what burns out components that don’t have the proper operating voltage. Trying to run a 220 volt motor on an un-fused 110 volt supply will burn out that motor because it drew twice the current than what it was designed to handle. That was another electrical lab experiment to show that the fuse would blow to protect the motor. Sometimes if the fuse doesn’t blow fast enough the device will go first. So it’s not a good idea to challenge the circuit’s design.
Now, if you disconnect the alternator from the battery it has no load pushing against it and its output rises to a point that the diodes can't handle......and that's when the smoke gets let out.
I just explained why this won’t happen when the voltage regulator is working properly. Also, besides having the battery, which is a load when it is being charged, there are plenty of circuits in the car to put a load on the alternator.
Now, having said all this, I have also heard that running cars without a battery can cause problems but I have not experienced it myself when loads are held low. Someone told me that BMW’s don’t like it when the battery is not in the car but I never tried this with a BMW. BMW’s seem to be in a world of their own.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
can you recommend some kind of back up system for mine? Not looking for a generator (would not be able to hook into it anyway, unless I did a big whole house unit). But is there some kind of battery back up that is not hugely expensive? I'm thinking of one that would plug in between the pump and the outlet, and trickle charge when the power is on, and automatically take over when the power goes out?
My pump works hard in the big rains, and I don't like to think about the results if our power takes a long hit at the same time!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Now, why did that scare me a bit?
If you've got the dough a whole house generator is the way to go.
I had ours put in last year and the peace of mind is worth the $15k.
You have to contract an excavator, propane guy and a good electrician.
I had a 1,000 gal underground propane tank (which I bought) and filled
and the electrician who coordinated the whole job including inspections.
20KW Generac with Nexus panel work flawlessly. It fires up for 10 minutes
once a week and when power goes out, just wait 1 minute or so and go
about your normal routine. It will run one month continuously or 1 to 2 hrs on-
6 hrs off for 10 to 12 months without a refuel. Storm, lightning, no worries.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Now, why did that scare me a bit?
The same reason I don't go to restaurants that have a sign outside;
"Chef Wanted
Apply Within"
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Honey... no new car for you, this year... :surprise:
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My Dad is looking to put a Zoeller Home Guard in his basement. You'll have to have a plumber run a water line. It uses the water to siphon out water. Pretty cool, huh?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I forgot, you're in a city with water usually constant.
I'm out in the country with a well that requires 220VAC.
However, ask the 6 million people in CA that lost power
yesterday. Even the water goes out. City water is just a
huge well, tank and pump system. No power=no water.
I wish you well (pun), but I think a good deep cycle battery
with a 400 Watt inverter should run a sump pump. If not,
parallel 2 batteries and use a 1,000 watt inverter, but the fan
will run constantly.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
You say "you'll" like in 'mako1a'. What makes you think he can't do the plumbing himself just like you plumbers do? I'd be willing to bet that he has a Bernzomatic torch just like you guys.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Ewww. You always returned stuff washed. It's just good manners.