Stories from the Sales Frontlines

driver100

After going out for a dinner to celebrate there was a big accident at the corner. An Audi (wouldn't you know it) Q7 or whatever they are called...large SUV, and a Windstall.

WE had just signed all these forms at the dealer that asked if our trade in had ever been in a major accident...and we answered no. I don't know if we covered this before, but it seems it would be very unfair, if the Audi driver was the innocent party in the accident. The insurance company will pay to have his car repaired, but he will take a hit when he goes to trade in his car because it was in an accident. How does that work?

tjc78

I Think you may be able to try and get some "diminished value" compensation but probably difficult.

This is one example of how leasing can work in your favor. My mother's RAV4 was smacked pretty hard in the rear causing about 10k in damage. No harm, it's fixed and Toyota financial's problem when turned in.

driver100

Congrats on being able to afford it.

I like to use the Driver Method of rationalizing costs. The BMW cost about $7000 a year to drive factoring in cost less depreciation. No repairs because it was covered for 4 years and we did spend $1500 for tires and alignment in year 5.

I think most cars would cost $4000 to $5000 a year to own. So, according to the Driver Method, it costs 1 pack of cigarettes a day, one moderately priced bottle of wine a day, 2 drinks at the bar a day, two rounds of golf a week....to pay for the bmw over something else.

I know it isn't that easy, but it is pretty close. It would mean coming up with an extra $60 a week. Most of my life I couldn't have done it, but now the house is paid for and the kids are on their own.

driver100

This is one example of how leasing can work in your favor.

Not sure if that could change over time. In Canada many leasing companies are going over returned cars and taking money off if they are damaged in any way. They used to let you get away with normal wear and tear, but now it seems to be a way for them to make more money. I think that if they think that accident could hurt the cars resale value they will start subtracing that amount when the car is appraised.

oldfarmer50

"...few people know what their trade is really worth..."

You mentioned using Black Book to get a trade price. Is that the same Black Book that dealers use in the states. I've gone to their web site and it seems to be available only by paid subscription. How did you access it? Do you have a link?

I seem to remember someone posting one long ago but my memory isn't what it use to be.

tjc78

As far as I know if a leased car is properly fixed there is nothing the leasing company can do. Now OTOH dings, scratches, burns, stains and damaged wheels have always been charged for.

oldfarmer50

"...I like to use the Driver Method of rationalizing costs..."

I like the Farmer Method myself. As an example, I bought my F-150 in 1997 for $1500. I junked it in 2009 after keeping it running with various scrap yard parts, chewing gum and bailing wire.

I think it cost about $1.29 a year to drive plus the bonus of the exercise I got walking home when it broke down. :lemon:

driver100

Is that the same Black Book that dealers use in the states.

I did find a site, I believe in Canada it is actually called the Blue Book, but, I called it Black Book just to avoid confusion. I believe the Edmunds used car site will give you the trade in value of a used car.
Go to: Pricing used cars
It's divided so you know what a dealer will pay you, or what you should expect to pay retail.

driver100

I think it cost about $1.29 a year to drive

Well, you can't beat that for value! And, as you said you saved about $50 a month in a gym membership, so you actually came out ahead.

I was thinking of my brothers 9 year old Honda Civic. Minimal car, not even a remote key....has to run around to open the passenger door.
I worked it out to $1800 a year which is pretty cheap driving. Now, he did have maintenance etc so lets say $2000 a year to drive a minimal car that was 9 years old. Compared to $6000 to drive a 335 for 5 years, and a 328 probably would have been closer to $5000 a year. Now, I am not great at math, and I suppose you would have to really save to get into the first car so the difference won't be as great if you trade at the optimum time...probably 4 or 5 years. Keep in mind when we are talking tax deductions that difference could be more like $4000 a year. If you were a mutual fund salesman, would you prefer to drive up to a perspective customer in a 2008 bmw 328 (that looks like a 2011 model) or in a 2003 Honda Civic with a few dents in it - for a difference of $4000 a year!

dino001

There can be significant difference between values shown by those books and websites. Blue Book is Kelley's, open source (for everybody) generally posts higher values that Black Book (subscription based). Edmund's values are often higher than that. There are exceptions (e.g. my STI was worth much more to Mr. Kelley than Mr. Edmunds (it was several thousand dollars) and it came Mr. Kelley seem to be right - but that was more aberration than rule - I think Mr. Kelley recognized supply shortages after the earthquake, and Mr. Edmunds just used some depreciation program. I doubt there were real data involved as the car is very low volume - most likely is some extrapolation based on "similar" cars.

When it comes to retail, the roles reverse - Mr. Edmunds more often claims the value is less than Mr. Kelley. Basically Mr. Edmunds thinks dealers should make much less money on a given car than Mr. Kelley (the spreads are much lower in former than latter).
Bottom line, a car is worth how much one party is willing to pay and the other party is willing to accept.

driver100

This is the interior we will be getting;


Picture of the exterior:

oldfarmer50

"...significant differences between values..."

I've found that on newer cars KBB and Edmunds are pretty close on trade-in value. For the old stuff (10+ years old) KBB can be double the Edmunds value.

That's why I'm always looking for additional comparisons. Auction value is probably the best real-world bottom line because you know that the dealer couldn't get a similar car any cheaper. Alas, that info is hard to come by without paying.

dino001

I think they are probably close on very popular, high volume 3-8 yrs. old. Anything outside of that (almost new or low volume/niche models), they diverge - but that's not surprising. There will also be very different offers from different dealers. I reapeat my example of my '08 STI I tried to sell in July '11 and again in January/February '12. In July One dealer offered $23.5K, which I thought was high, in another one, the UCM did not even bother to come to take a look at it and threw 18 grand so I'd go away. I tried six months later (original transaction did not go through) and Edmunds was showing 18K or so for trade-in, while KBB was around 22.5 grand for trade-in and I had actual offer from dealer in that value. Asking dealer retail prices for similar cars were in very high 20s, close to $30K. I attribute those spreads to very shallow market of the models and prices can be all over the place. I generally think Edmunds was where it "should be" if the market were normal and there were no shortages of Subarus due to tsunami losses, but those supply losses weighed on the used car market for longer than I even thought.

oldfarmer50

"...probably pretty close..."

Just for giggles I ran my 2008 eclipse and my son's 1993 Deville through both KBB And Edmunds for trade and private party values.

On the Eclipse, all values were within $100.

On the Caddy, KBB was about 37-38% higher for both trade and private party. That's not nearly the spread I saw when I bought the car in 2010. Funny thing is that Edmunds says the car is now worth $300 more now than it was back then. I guess used car prices have gone crazy. :confuse:

abacomike

Alas, that info is hard to come by without paying

I've been reading all these posts about trade-in values and was not planning to respond because of the way I feel, but I felt the need to offer some info from experience.

BLACK BOOK is published by the AADA or NADA (don't remember if it is AMERICAN or NATIONAL DEALERS ASSOCIATION) and is what most dealers use when appraising the value of a trade vehicle. It comes out once a week and is based on miles, year, model/make, condition and some, not all options (I.e. NAV, sport, AWD, etc). Additionally, most dealers use Manheim to check daily/weekly auction pricing.

CARFAX is another tool used by dealers. But these tools are just that - TOOLS - to assist in arriving at a dollar value for trade vehicles. By nothing can substitute for a good appraiser's inspection of the trade and whether or not the trade will be kept for sale on his lot or wholesaled.

An example is when I traded my Mercedes in on the Lexus. Their first number was $49,000. I had looked up the car on Manheim, and they only had 2 examples, none with the P2 package. I produced the window sticker from the Benz and that made the difference - several thousand to be exact. And the sold the car to a Benz dealer for a quick $2000 profit. Again, the pricing is contingent on so many factors that one canno possibly look up YHE car on Edmunds or KBB and determine a car's value. They are usually thousands over what the car is actually worth.

Too often an owner of a trade OVER-VALUES their car because what they think is CLEAN is really only good. And what the think is good is really only fair.

The best way to properly value a trade is to get an approximate value from Edmunds and KBB (and another from another rarer) and then shop the trade at a few dealers. You will then get a very good idea of a car's value for TRADE PURPOSES.

abacomike

This is the interior we will be getting

One of my neighbors just bought a new Volkswagen for Passat LX or LS, I don't remember the lettering on the back. They let me take it for a quick spin through my development. Boy, they sure make a great car for the money. I am not a fan of front wheel Drve vehicles, but this one is quite well built and handles nicely. They got the light interior with silver outside.

As for the looks, it looks a lot like the Audi A4. Good choice *driver.

roadburner

A truly great song that always makes me think of Dad, who passed in 1991...

My Old Man

roadburner

Audi definitely designs and builds the best interiors.

fezo

Oh, you can't beat Audi interiors. I'm always stunned in my buddy's A8. Like driver I'd never get one (big for my tastes) but it's a heck of a car to be a passenger in.

rb - great song. The late, great Steve Goodman wrote that. Managed to hang on to my ad until 2008 - he was 90! I miss him every day.

Driver - how the heck do you arrive at that $6K for 5 years in a 335? $100 a month?

fezo

Of course if I played the youtube first I'd have known that the Steve Goodman credit was made perfectly clear......

The Internet connection is is terrible (can't complain - they put me up for free) so it takes forever to load anything.

driver100

One of my neighbors just bought a new Volkswagen for Passat LX or LS,

Both the Passat and Audi are tastefully made and do seem to offer a good value for the money. Our Audi is an A4 Premium Plus so it has AWD and the steering is not as firm as the bmw, but firmir than a 1980 Buick.

I have to ask you for your opinion Mike. We were set to buy the BMW on Saturday morning. I found the trade in value for our 2008 was $21,000 for poor condition, to $24880 for top condition. I think it fell into the top condition but allowed for some error, so expected to get $24000. When they came back with $20000 and the reason they gave was the used car guy can get the same car for $20000 at the BMW auction I was getting a little hot under the collar. It sounded like story they contrived to make it sound like your trade in is a piece of garbage.

We had the inside and outside cleaned for $25...it was spotless with not a scratch or any dust, and it only has 38ooo miles on it. I don't think they even started the car up...I think they just gave me their lowest price possible.

The young guy at Audi said right off he took the car for a spin. He said it was as clean a car as he could get in. Said he would pay $24000 and at worst he would sell it for $25000 and make an easy $1000 and probably get $27 or $28k. The $25 wash and interior cleaning was worth it in this case. Wouldn't you think a BMW dealer could sell the car for more than an Audi dealer? In fact, the BMW salesman said they would pay $20k, fix it up for $5k, and put it on the lot for $30k. The car had a full final service about 8 months and 5000 miles ago under warranty. Has brand new tires and an alignment. There is nothing that has to be done to the car. BMW could even sell it as a certified car and sell an extended warranty with it.

What do you thin about the "BMW Auction"? I don't believe it exists, or maybe does, but probably has a small part to play. Like maybe if a dealer has too many used cars on their lot.

driver100

Audi definitely designs and builds the best interiors.

One thing I wasn't crazy about in the new 3 Series was the Navi-Radio-Camera window. Don't know if you can make it out in this picture but it is a screen that is sitting on top, like they forgot to build it into the dash when they were designing it.


The Navi-Radio-Camera in the Audi are integrated into the dash:

abacomike

What do you think about the BMW auction...

Never heard of the BMW auction! If he was talking about leased cars that were turned into BMW, and BMW was selling them, then that's what he may have meant. But those cars are usually wholesaled, in general, unless the car(s) are in stupendous condition. Then, the leasing arm of BMW may offer them for sale at the residual, which might be a very good deal for a dealership. I used to buy lease returns from our manufacturer if they were priced at residual and were low miles.

At Audi, they may have had incentives on the A4 and were going to keep your trade, thus they were able to give you the $24,000. You never know what incentives a manufacturer is offering their dealerships since some of them are not advertised or known to the general public.

I think you said he sold you the car for 3% off MSRP. That left him 4% to 5.5% to play around with. I don't know why he gave you $24,000 for your trade when BMW only offered you $20,000, because I don't know all the details of your deal and was not there with you.

It sure sounds like you did well though!

Just enjoy it and remember, to go back and forth justifying this and discounting that (spinning your wheels, so to speak) and rehashing the deal you made gets you nothing. You made the deal, are happy with the deal you got, you love the car, what else could you want?

driver100

You made the deal, are happy with the deal you got, you love the car, what else could you want?

You are right...we are really pleased, and as my wife said, it would be nice getting another 3 Series, but she is more excited because this car is completely different.

He gave me 4% off the new one.

I appreciate your comments about the "BMW Auction". It could be their way to sell off lease returns. I think it is just a way to make a low bid on your trade in sound plausable.

I do feel bad for the salesman. I think upper management told him to give us that story, and he lost what should have been an easy sale. He has been working on this for 8 months since he sold me my car.

Hey, hope you are feeling better, rest up, that always helps.
Hope Fezo had a good weekend out on the loose.

abacomike

You are right - we are very pleased

Terrific! You both should be very pleased. I sincerely hope all the technology is easy to learn. You remember the learning curve I had to go through with my new GS350. I am still learning things like the NAV Traffic and NAV Weather features supported by SIRIUS/XM.

I had to run out Friday evening to pick up the 3 prescriptions my doctor ordered for my bout with pneumonia and I was startled by "...SEVERE WEATHER HAS BEEN LOCATED CLOSE TO YOU - CAUTION!" My NAV/WEATHER voice lady was communicating with me without my activating it by pressing the "voice" button. It sure surprised me. Then, 10 minutes later, I was driving through a torrential downpour with thunder and lightening. Truly an amazing feature.

I've taken 3 Levaquin antibiotics, but they haven't alleviated my coughing or tightness in my chest. I have to see a pulmonary specialist tomorrow or Tuesday once I pick up my X-rays. I think it takes 4 or 5 days before these pills begin to take hold of the infection. All I can say is that my joints and muscles/tendons hurt something awful. I can hardly walk on my left leg. And they still have not gotten the results on one of my blood tests for the welt on my abdomen. What can I say.

JUST ENJOY THE NEW CAR!

nyccarguy

Congrats on the new A4! Mazel-Tov & best of luck with it!

mako1a

NAV Traffic and NAV Weather features supported by SIRIUS/XM

That's interesting that it auto warns you while driving. I was going to blow off using that feature in the Mustang, but if it works like a weather warn I may try it. With strong storms coming out of seemingly nowhere it might be handy.

my joints and muscles/tendons hurt something awful

Mike, my doctor keeps me in Tylenol 3 for just those pains (and a stiff neck).
They're just strong enough with occasional use to work without being habit forming. Good luck with your outcome.

bolivar

Quote: " All I can say is that my joints and muscles/tendons hurt something awful. I can hardly walk on my left leg. "

I was sick most of the winter. This describes perfectly one of my 'episodes', with addition of cough, chill/fever. Same leg was effected, the left. Temp went to 104 one night and my wife said 'Either get in the truck (Ridgeline, to keep the car talk in here) or I'm calling an ambulance!' I went to the ER and they loaded me up with a shot, Xray, cough med (never knew there was hydrocodine cough syrup! - it works), steroid pack. Got to my regular doctor in a couple of days and saw the Phy. Assistant, who called it flu. Said even though I had a flu shot, it didn't cover all varities and that what she thought I had, they were seeing lots of it. I never understood the leg problem at all. Never had nothing like that before. Unless some time in the previous week when I was feeling terrible I fell down in the back yard with the dog and don't remember doing it. Anyway, my leg/ankle hurt for a couple of months before it went away. I got better for about 5 days then a relapse come on me again for a week. I think the steroid pack helped my lungs, but messed up other things for me. I know it sent my blood sugar thru the roof.

Here's hoping the doctors get this all lined out for you and get a good treatment approach. They never really decided on anything except the flu episode, and other things that went on during the winter never had a definite disgnoise made.

driver100

Congrats on the new A4! Mazel-Tov & best of luck with it!

Much appreciated.

driver100

...SEVERE WEATHER HAS BEEN LOCATED CLOSE TO YOU - CAUTION!"

Now that is a great feature and sometimes you have to marvel at todays technology. We heard about a big snow storm when we drove back from Florida. It didn't materialize, but it was nice to have Sirius Radio so we could hear weather reports from the closest weather stations. Complete weather every 3 to 5 minutes. I don't know how we managed before.

The new car won't be in for a few months, late August or maybe September, they have to build it and ship it, and then it goes on rail from Halifax Nova Scotia.

Please give us updates, I don't want to keep asking but I am sure we all want to know how you are progressing.

driver100

They never really decided on anything except the flu episode

Glad you got over it bolivar.

This getting older sucks...but as Woody Allen says, "It is better than the alternatives".

nyccarguy

Hey driver - you should join the Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan thread here on Town Hall & share what you think of your wife's new A4 & her outgoing 335i.

driver100

you should join the Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan thread here on Town Hall & share

That reminds me, I have to check the Passat posts too...see if any one answered my questions from 2 months ago. Good idea, I'll go there right now and I'll let you know how it went.

stickguy

Between Driver and Graphicguy, it looks like the Audi crowd is going to overtake the BMW buyers around here.

Actully got me to price out a Q5 just for the heck of it, but even a very low option one at a killer discount is still going to be more than the MSRP on an RDX.

Speaking of the RDX, if I do finally break down and get one for my wife (and both my kids are just telling me to go get it, since it is inevitable at this point!), it should be possible to get a decent discount.

invoice->msrp spread is larger than I expected (2K+) so room to come down. Not that they will want to of course, but the dealer I was looking at (where I got my Volvo too) was touting being #1 volume now in the NE region. And I know they fight tooth and nail vs. the big automall store nearby, and there are a couple of aggressive ones just over in PA.

so, a nice low but not ridiculous offer on an in stock unit (take it home tonight!), with the message that if they aren't interested I am fine with going to the next guy, should get a deal done.

Not having a trade, and not being under any time crunch, can do wonders for your negotiating position! And Honda's are at least easy to shop, since they are all the same (every base AWD RDX in Amber is going to be just like the next guys).

driver100

you should join the Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan thread

I did and I told my whole story...don't know if anyone there will be that interested. I hope GG posts his story here, he sure got a nice Audi.

I don't know if I can keep up with extra posts, but I'll check in over there once in awhile.

Thanks for mentioning it though....I had fun posting my story and I can't wait to hear the rest of GGs story...I asked him to post it here.

mako1a

I can't wait to hear the rest of GGs story.

I'm not finding the luxo sedan thread. Did GG actually trade the 335ix

on an Audi? Where is Audi made? Germany? I just figured out that RDX

is a Honda (I think). I'm still thinking RX350 as in Lexus. Some of these

cars being discussed, I've never seen. Tough out in the mountains here.

Kirstie_H

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef0a892

abacomike

I was sick most of the winter

Thanks, Bolivar. I had no fever at all, just the coughing, shortness of breath and bringing up lots of mucous from my lungs.

The pains in my tendons and muscles didn't start until Saturday, right after I started taking the velaquin. I checked for side effects of this drug, and one of them is tendon/muscle cramps and tenderness/swelling. So, I think the pain I am feeling is from the antibiotic.

This was not a flu, according to all the doctors, but a viral infection that presented itself, at first, as a welt on my abdomen. Then the sinus and lung congestion, etc.

Still waiting for the results of the blood test I took last week for antibodies, and am seeing the pulmonary specialist this afternoon.

Thnaks again for your well wishes and information. Everything helps.

abacomike

That's interesting that it auto warns you while driving

I don't know, mako, if the alert for the weather warning was directly from XM/SIRIUS or if it came from ENFORM*, Lexus's monitoring system for all applications (like ONSTAR). I don't know how it works in the Lexus, but my Mercedes just showed a weather map, cold fronts, and wind directions. The Lexus shows a weather map, forecasts, etc., but the audible voice alert seems to be the same "voice" as my NAV, phone calling system, and Audio selections.

You might want to check on that prior to getting it added to your services - does the alert come from the satellite radio system or from Ford's in-car system?

Down here in southern Florida, alerts aren't usually necessary because we have no tall building to block the horizons - so one can easily see thunderstorms and lightning approaching ahead of time. But, the voice startled me as I was not expecting her weather announcement, if you know what I mean.

driver100

I have a question for you that you will probably be able to help me with.

When we test drove the 2012 bmw 335 manual, we noticed the clutch doesn't actually engage until it is about 3/4s of the way back up. What happens is, the clutch pedal is all the way down, you are letting it come up, and you are stepping down on the gas, so the engine is reving away until the two engage.

It bothered my wife more than me, and I think you would get used to it. The salesman said, that that was normal in a new car, and it slowly works it's way down so it will engage at the bottom as it gets worn in.

I have never experienced a clutch to be that way, and the Audi worked as smooth as could be. Do you think the salesman was giving me a valid reason or was he giving me an excuse that seemed plausable?

jmonroe

The $11000 difference is just a great bonus. And, most important, my wife loves it!

So, let me get this straight. For $11K you’ll give up your love of “feel of the road” and become a turncoat.

Pass on my congrats to Mrs. Driver. If we ever find out you’ve been driving her car more than just occasionally, we’ll know you’ve softened up in your mature years. :surprise:

jmonroe

stickguy

I have had cars in the past with high clutch engagement points, but I have never had one (or heard of it) where it would go down during break in!.

Actually, the worst offenders? VW, back in the mid-00s was terrible. Very noticeable compared to my other cars. My wife test drove the 2005ish Passat I was looking at, and practically could not get it to move (she was out of practice, but had driven stick for many years).

the last VW stick I drove was a 2006 Jetta, and I don't remember it being as much of an issue.

Oh, I think the 2001 525 BMW I drove was higher than some cars, but not terribly so.

nyccarguy

Ever since the clutch was replaced (52,000 miles) on my Prelude, it has a very high take up. I'm used to it by now (almost 100K later).

jmonroe

Your oil change was more insane....$3500!

Get your numbers right. It was $3K tops. For $3500, I’d have tried to hurt someone. :mad:

jmonroe

abacomike

Do you think the salesman was giving me a valid reason or was he giving me an excuse that seemed plausable?

*Driver, if my two cents is worth anything, I think he was giving you the business. The clutch should operate at about the same level(s) when the car is new or when the car has 12,000 miles on it. You should not notice the difference until the car has been driven 40K miles or higher. It will all depend on the driver. If the driver is hoding down the clutch too long as the accelerator is depressed, it will tend to wear the clutch more.

Your wife is obviously no novice when it comes to driving a stick. If she noticed the difference, then that is enough for me. But also remember she was used to driving a car with 40K+ miles on it and was several years old. A clutch will wear by that time - so having a new clutch in a new car would obviously seems different, if not awkward to her. When your trade BMW was brand new, I would guess the clutch operated about the same as the new BMW. Just a guess!

Let me know what the other mavens here think!

28firefighter

Enjoy the new A4! My mom has a 2011 A5 and absolutely loves it (very similar cars, though the A5 is two door). It has also been rock solid reliable, after just over 45k miles in 2 years. I also find the 2.0T to be downright fun and the ride sporty, but not overly harsh.

graphicguy

Man, is that nice looking, driver. 'Gratz!

roadburner

I have never experienced a clutch to be that way, and the Audi worked as smooth as could be. Do you think the salesman was giving me a valid reason or was he giving me an excuse that seemed plausible?

In short, no.
BMW -like virtually every other manufacturer- uses a self-adjusting hydraulic actuator. The ONLY time you should notice a difference in clutch engagement height is at the very end of the service clutch assembly. I haven't driven an E9x manual for a while but I don't recall it being that unusual with respect to engagement height(what I hate is the clutch delay valve(CDV), but that is another story).
The clutch operation that I had the most difficulty adapting to is the setup in my Mazdaspeed3; it's almost digital- either engaged or not. I still stall it from time to time.

driver100

So, let me get this straight. For $11K you’ll give up your love of “feel of the road” and become a turncoat.

Oh no, the Audi definitely has the feel of the road too, the road is just a little softer.

I will pass on your kind words to Mrs. D., and I might just be driving her car more than she thinks I will. There is something about the Audi that I really like. Don't get me wrong, BMW is also a great car, but maybe I am growing up.

driver100

I think the 2001 525 BMW I drove was higher than some cars,

Interesting. Well, my wifes 2008 335 and my previous 2008 328 were fine....absolutely no problem.

Either they changed it or this particular car needed an adjustment. But, I don't think it is the way the engineers planned it, so I don't think the reason the salesman gave me is true....that it is just new and will change with time.