You're absolutely right to say that the market is in control of perceived price and value. The problem is that the reasons for the prices determined aren't often rational. Though it is the primary determiner of value, "the market" (almost akin to the invisible hand, like "the man") has very little credibility in my eyes. Afterall, these are the same folks who create artificial demand for products like Elmo TMX and bottled water.
" Regardless of what Edmunds says, the question is: do YOU believe it?
I seriously doubt I could find a Sonata and Accord, similarly equipped, with similar miles and age, that sell for similar money. Better yet, find those vehicles and put them side by side and find someone who would actually pay the same for the Sonata as they would the Accord. That's the real trick (and exactly the reason why used hondas fetch FAR more money than used hyundais). "
well, when the honda starts $3K more than the sonata, then no you won't find 2 used ones priced the same. the depreciation amount is equal, but the sonata sells for sooo much less than the accord (new).
"You need to read the fine print on that warranty.
Hyundai HAD to go to that warranty in an attempt to creat some confidence after the junk they first came to market with."
the limits on hyundai's warranty are the same as those on honda's warranty. there is fine print on any warranty, but as to anything specific you are pointing out, please be a lttle more direct.
"They HAVE come a long way. I agree! They are still, however, a Hyundai, a Korean car with dismal resale value at least for the time being. "
if hondas have a great resale value, then hyundai is about average. chevy's have a worse resale value, as do kia's, mitsubishis, and some other brands. start reading somemore info on hyundai as a brand and what the experts are saying (the same people that have great things to say about honda) and you will see that hyundai's resale value is improving every year.
" At our local Hyundai dealer, I can buy a 2007 Sonata Limited XM Standard for $17,800, including rebates. "
considering i sell hyundai's, this $17,800 for a limited sonata is not a real price. the sticker on the car is $25k. read the fine print, as that price includes a downpayment and every rebate possible (even though 99% of the population wouldn't qualify for each one).
although, you don't get the full warranty with a used hyundai. the FACT that hyundai will stand behind their product for 10 years says alot about the company. honda has a great product, but they are a little pricey and the dealers dont like to discount the product.
"But, in the here and now, it's best to buy a Hyundai with the understanding you're going to drive it until the wheels fall off. Just a quick look at TMV for an '03 Elantra and an '03 Civic....and their trade value, shows the Elantra is worth 1/2 as much as a comparable Civic with similar options (Elantra=~$4,700 vs Civic=~$8,900).
That's a pretty big gap. "
while this may be true, you have forgotten 1 VERY important thing, the selling price of both when new.
Isn't the average trading cycle running around 3 years 50,000 miles right now? So saying you only cover the original owner for 10 years and 100,000 miles is'nt doing much for the average buyers
I'm in a business, where a number of years ago we went to mobile offices. Everyone gives up their assigned office, and they all become part of a pool. You show up in the morning, find an open office or cubicle, sign in at a central system, and your phone gets assigned and routed to you. Some people who are in the office all the time and usually show up early leave their own pictures around, but any office is open and fair game. First come, first serve.
Not to make excuses for the guy that used your office, but once you work in that environment for a couple of years, you kinda just get in the habit of finding the first open office and setting up shop.
In this case they gained no profit and still have the same inventory cost.
If they sold you a car on order they don't have a profit until the car comes in and you take delivery on it. That could be weeks or even a month. So at that time they still have no profit.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sorry for being late in getting back to you. I’ve been communicating long distance for the past week. Just got back from a week in Delray Beach Florida visiting my brother. 80 + degrees for the whole week. The pilot was stroking everybody about the 15 degrees when we landed in Pittsburgh. He thought he was being funny but no one was laughing. Good thing he’s a pilot, he’d starve as a comedian.
You're making me feel old.
Sorry about that but as they say, "if the shoe fits .”
I hooked up "FM converters" to them to play through that one little speaker.
I never did that but I remember hooking up a ‘reverberator ‘ in my 66’ Bonneville, even put in two rear speakers when I did that. I had three speakers after that modification, WOW.
That reminds me, is Casey Kasem still around?
Now that’s a name out of the past alright (maybe you are old) but I don’t know about his situation now.
Not good to be back, kinda moody at the present. Might start picking on everyone now.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
it is actually cheaper to own a Honda and that does not account for the value of other "non-financial" facets that are IGNORED by Edmunds TCO numbers. Advantage: HONDA!
Since the initial outlay for the Hyundai is much less the advantage overall would go to Hyundai not Honda. Now what are those "non-financial" factors?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"Isn't the average trading cycle running around 3 years 50,000 miles right now? So saying you only cover the original owner for 10 years and 100,000 miles is'nt doing much for the average buyers "
50K miles in 3 years is alot of miles. most drive between 12-15k miles so 36-45k miles in 3 years. compared to everyone else's powertrain warranty: honda 5 yr, 60k; toyota 5yr, 60k; ford 5yr, 60k; hyundai gives you more coverage. gm has a 100k powertrain warranty but it is only for 5 yrs.
I would think that time and not mileage would be the deciding factor in a rental car. A rental company may only want to have the car for a specific period of time and then get rid of it. I would think that most people would rather rent a 2007 than a 2006 or 2005 car. Now the question becomes how many miles per day does the average rental car get driven?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"Since the initial outlay for the Hyundai is much less the advantage overall would go to Hyundai not Honda. Now what are those "non-financial" factors? "
hey, i have some. how about repairs when after 3 yrs, 36k miles? advantage hyundai.
Just a quick look at TMV for an '03 Elantra and an '03 Civic....and their trade value, shows the Elantra is worth 1/2 as much as a comparable Civic with similar options (Elantra=~$4,700 vs Civic=~$8,900).
Thats a significant difference but what was the difference in the original selling price?
I looked up my car a '00 hyundai wagon with 140K miles and it showed a TMV trade in of just over $1,300. A comparable Civic with the same miles came up as just over $3,000 a difference of over $1,700. However new the Civic was in the area of $2,500 more. So to get $1,700 more in resale value 7 years later I had to pay $2,500. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hyundai was forced into that warranty because of their dismal start. If you read the fine print you will see a lot of items (the things that break) are excluded.
Honda has a five year, 60,000 mile powertrain warranty but very little ever go's wrong.
The BEST warranty is the one you never have to use!
although, you don't get the full warranty with a used hyundai. the FACT that hyundai will stand behind their product for 10 years says alot about the company.
Apparently Hyundai got a hold of some bad exhaust manifolds for the Elantras a while back. They extended the warranty on the exhaust manifolds to ten years unlimited miles. Mine cracked at about 120K miles, they fixed it no questions asked. To me thats standing behind your car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I can buy a one year old Grand Prix for about $12K if I haggle hard. This sort of car is the ideal commuter-box. Nice V6 engine(GM 3800 - quite reliable), and decent enough suspension as well.
With the exception of exotic cars and the like, there's no reason to possibly buy new versus certified for a huge amount less.
Sorry, nthe, the $17,800 for a 2007 Sonata Limited XM Standard is a real price - $17,800, plus Tax, Title, and License from my dealer. I have a firm quote for exactly that price right here in my hand! I am an ex-car salesman myself, and understand all of the aspects of pricing.
Give Pugi Hyundai-Mazda-VW in Downers Grove, IL a call. I stated in my earlier post that it included applicable rebates. No down payment necessary, and no financing required, as I always pay cash for my cars.
My son and I looked at '03 Civics before we bought the Elantra. If memory serves, we could have bought an '03 Civic in that $13K-$14K range.
I know we paid $10K for the '03 Elantra.
So maybe that gap in resale values is washed out by the lesser amount paid up front.
Still, I wouldn't have any qualms at all with buying another Hyundai. From personal experience, they are that good with regards to build quality and reliability. Also from personal experience, I can tell you the dealership and service experience is worlds better than what I've experienced with a Cadillac.
I think it depends on how and when you look at it.
an '03 Elantra with 100k miles is now worth about $4k, while a similar Civic is about $3k more. Same price gap, but if you think in terms of depreciation, the Hyundai dropped 60% while the Honda only dropped 47%. The extra $3k you spent up front would not be lost because you get that same $3k now.
(Numbers are for Elantra GLS automatic with cruise control vs Civic LX automatic. Based on KBB trade-in values.)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I've been in and out of a number of dealerships these past few days. With the lousy weather (-8 F and snowstorms), the dealerships are pretty empty. I was curious what you sales guys/gals do when things are quiet (or utterly dead)? I seem to recall the Rover sales guy on this forum mentioning that he usually sales only a handful each month. That makes for many days with perhaps no customers at all I would think.
I can see that making for some looooonnng days!! When that happens, how do you keep yourselves from dying of boredom?
That actually means that the cost to own is the same in terms of dollar depreciation (not percentagewise), i.e. assuming money spent as difference between purchase and trade.
That means advantage to Huyndai for financed purchases (interest payments are higher in Honda with the same downpayment), advantage to Hyundai for tax (lower sales tax based on lower price), advantage to Hyundai on repairs (longer warranty period for original owner). Seems Hyundai is better choice when taking finances to account.
So what are real advantages to Honda? 1. Gas mileage (consistently better for all comparable models), which offsets some finances. 2. Brand Image. 3. Handling (most people agree Hondas are better handling) 4. Some people may find their designs/interiors better, but it's purely subjective.
Assuming partial offset from gas mileage, Honda seems to be just slightly more expensive choice, but a bit better in terms of subjective qualities. Looks like a tie to me...
Now imagine if Hyundai continues its progress without substantial price hikes, it will likely overtake Honda in 5-10 years. Of course that is a big if, as improvements are always getting smaller and smaller with your progress (and usually cost more).
"The BEST warranty is the one you never have to use! "
absolutely. hyundai has offered this warranty since 1999, yet they have made money each year since then, meaning they aren't losing a bunch of money backing up this warranty so obviously since they continue with this warranty, more people don't use than do.
"What would you say the price would be? Fitzmall has limited starting at under $19K on their website. "
the rebate is $1000 (although if you finance with hmfc as of 2/14, you get an additional $1000 rebate).
the limiteds stickers start at 23,645 with and invoice of 22,182, so if you got one at invoice with the $2k in rebates then you are still higher than the $19k advertised by this dealership. all i can say is read the fine print in the ad.
"Sorry, nthe, the $17,800 for a 2007 Sonata Limited XM Standard is a real price - $17,800, plus Tax, Title, and License from my dealer. I have a firm quote for exactly that price right here in my hand! I am an ex-car salesman myself, and understand all of the aspects of pricing. "
hey, thats great. the price just seemed too low to be true considering used 06 sonatas with similar equipment sell for that price.
no offense, but reading about the depreciation between honda and hyundai is not as exciting as the stories some of you tell!
rover, did that lady on the volvo xc90 call back and offer her ridiculous amount again? did you end up taking it to auction? haven't heard about that recently...
but also look at other factors such as if you financed the car, you pay interest on that 3k, you also paid taxes on that amount, and any repairs that would be covered under the hyundai warranty, but not by honda could be a factor.
I don't know about other stores, but we fill a good part of the day following up with prospects, current owners (we have a call sked for this) and catch up paperwork. Then it is waiting for an e-lead, phone call and hanging out on Edmunds. Actually, to do the job right many no customer days can still be busy
"So what are real advantages to Honda? 1. Gas mileage (consistently better for all comparable models), which offsets some finances. "
not anymore. the sonata (bot 4 cyl, and v6 get better mpgs than the accord), the elantra is 2 less in the city and 4 less on the highway, the santa fe gets the same as the pilot, the tucson gets the 1 less in the city and 2 less on the highway than the crv.
I see... By the way, it will be VERY INTERESTING to see new EPA mileage estimates for 2008 models.
I suspect it may be shattering to some vehicles. I may be wrong, but I suspect that some highway numbers may go substantially down for those smaller displacement Japanese engines (there is a substantial difference in engine demand between 55 and 70 mph if you don't have a lot of torque) and conversely city mileage numbers will suffer in large GM pushrods (push you gas pedal just a bit harder harder and you hear gulps in your tank). We shall see of course...
my 07 elantra gets about 27mpg with just city driving and it is rated at 28. i have not taken it on any highway trips so i dont know if the 36 is realistic or not.
FYI: The lower outlay is already factored into the Edmunds TCO numbers. Those calculations already take time value of money into account!
Brand/reputation/image etc. matter to some folks, whether we like it or not. If you meet/drive clients, Honda vehicle may not get in the way the same way that Hyundai might. The perceptions of the public at large matter although it is difficult to attach numbers to those facets...
Given Edmunds TCO, buying a Hyuandai is still "penny wise, pound foolish", if we consider the fact that there is still a good (yes, not huge) probability that you may have to sell/total any vehicle you own at ANY time.
I may be different, but I was never comfortable with people who feel they had to "project" their success by brand of their clothes or car. So for me a salesman/accountant/advisor/realtor in a well-maintained and clean Hyundai would actually tell me a lot of positive things about their judgement and attitude to money. Conversely, S-class Benz may not impress me that much (it's impressive car no doubt, but the person who drives them may not be as much, if they can't afford it or worse if they can but it came from wallets of their lients, i.e. mine).
How much of the sales discussions are cold hard facts vs. emotion, when customers talk about what they want from a car?
Do they say, "Well, I don't know - this (Brand 1) only gets 23.75 Miles Per Gallon, and the (Brand 2) gets 23.89" or do they say, "Gee this is nice, but I really like the color of the seats on the Brand 2", or is it feature driven? "Gee, the snooterglimmer on the Brand 2 is really a nice feature, but I'd give it up if you give me a $500 break on this Brand 1"
i want to say its about 50:50, but it just depends on the salesperson and the customer.
90% of the dicussions are price driven though. usually within the first minute of talking to a customer they will always ask about how much a discount they can get.
Dino: it matters not what you and I think. Those are "standard" perceptions in our society and whether we like it or not it pays to conform at least to some extent... Let us say you are a "successful" attorney/accountant and you pull up in a really cheap and/or old car: client will think that you are either real cheap or not very successful? If you pull up in an S-class, it is safe to assume you are either successful braggart, overcharge your clients, or living beyond your means? Conversely, if you show up in a nice Accord, Camry, or Avalon, you might be getting the best of all worlds.
"Conversely, if you show up in a nice Accord, Camry, or Avalon, you might be getting the best of all worlds"
i personally think the new sonata is every bit as nice as a camry or accord (in fact it looks like an accord). in fact most people that come in to look at the sonata are very impressed with what hyundai has done.
Comments
Sure I did. I wasn't raised in a barn.
And I have every intent on paying back that sandwich I accidently ate... as well as several long distance phone calls that were made. :shades:
Regardless of what Edmunds says, the question is: do YOU believe it?
I seriously doubt I could find a Sonata and Accord, similarly equipped, with similar miles and age, that sell for similar money. Better yet, find those vehicles and put them side by side and find someone who would actually pay the same for the Sonata as they would the Accord. That's the real trick (and exactly the reason why used hondas fetch FAR more money than used hyundais). "
well, when the honda starts $3K more than the sonata, then no you won't find 2 used ones priced the same. the depreciation amount is equal, but the sonata sells for sooo much less than the accord (new).
Hyundai HAD to go to that warranty in an attempt to creat some confidence after the junk they first came to market with."
the limits on hyundai's warranty are the same as those on honda's warranty. there is fine print on any warranty, but as to anything specific you are pointing out, please be a lttle more direct.
if hondas have a great resale value, then hyundai is about average. chevy's have a worse resale value, as do kia's, mitsubishis, and some other brands. start reading somemore info on hyundai as a brand and what the experts are saying (the same people that have great things to say about honda) and you will see that hyundai's resale value is improving every year.
considering i sell hyundai's, this $17,800 for a limited sonata is not a real price. the sticker on the car is $25k. read the fine print, as that price includes a downpayment and every rebate possible (even though 99% of the population wouldn't qualify for each one).
That's a pretty big gap. "
while this may be true, you have forgotten 1 VERY important thing, the selling price of both when new.
Not to make excuses for the guy that used your office, but once you work in that environment for a couple of years, you kinda just get in the habit of finding the first open office and setting up shop.
I think this is called a selection bias. The light keeps turning red (or green) on me, too, when I approach the intersection.
Those were pretty good buys if you picked them up for what they were worth.....ie. almost nothing.
Not sure, weren't those cheap but not super-cheap when new? If used, they are certainly cheap, but what is the situation with parts availability?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If they sold you a car on order they don't have a profit until the car comes in and you take delivery on it. That could be weeks or even a month. So at that time they still have no profit.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You're making me feel old.
Sorry about that but as they say, "if the shoe fits .”
I hooked up "FM converters" to them to play through that one little speaker.
I never did that but I remember hooking up a ‘reverberator ‘ in my 66’ Bonneville, even put in two rear speakers when I did that. I had three speakers after that modification, WOW.
That reminds me, is Casey Kasem still around?
Now that’s a name out of the past alright (maybe you are old) but I don’t know about his situation now.
Not good to be back, kinda moody at the present. Might start picking on everyone now.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Since the initial outlay for the Hyundai is much less the advantage overall would go to Hyundai not Honda. Now what are those "non-financial" factors?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
50K miles in 3 years is alot of miles. most drive between 12-15k miles so 36-45k miles in 3 years. compared to everyone else's powertrain warranty: honda 5 yr, 60k; toyota 5yr, 60k; ford 5yr, 60k; hyundai gives you more coverage. gm has a 100k powertrain warranty but it is only for 5 yrs.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
hey, i have some. how about repairs when after 3 yrs, 36k miles? advantage hyundai.
Thats a significant difference but what was the difference in the original selling price?
I looked up my car a '00 hyundai wagon with 140K miles and it showed a TMV trade in of just over $1,300. A comparable Civic with the same miles came up as just over $3,000 a difference of over $1,700. However new the Civic was in the area of $2,500 more. So to get $1,700 more in resale value 7 years later I had to pay $2,500. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Honda has a five year, 60,000 mile powertrain warranty but very little ever go's wrong.
The BEST warranty is the one you never have to use!
What would you say the price would be? Fitzmall has limited starting at under $19K on their website.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Apparently Hyundai got a hold of some bad exhaust manifolds for the Elantras a while back. They extended the warranty on the exhaust manifolds to ten years unlimited miles. Mine cracked at about 120K miles, they fixed it no questions asked. To me thats standing behind your car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
With the exception of exotic cars and the like, there's no reason to possibly buy new versus certified for a huge amount less.
And they get lousy gas mileage.
Wonder how many Chevy dealers love the HHR??
Give Pugi Hyundai-Mazda-VW in Downers Grove, IL a call. I stated in my earlier post that it included applicable rebates. No down payment necessary, and no financing required, as I always pay cash for my cars.
I know we paid $10K for the '03 Elantra.
So maybe that gap in resale values is washed out by the lesser amount paid up front.
Still, I wouldn't have any qualms at all with buying another Hyundai. From personal experience, they are that good with regards to build quality and reliability. Also from personal experience, I can tell you the dealership and service experience is worlds better than what I've experienced with a Cadillac.
it sure is.
I can tell you the dealership and service experience is worlds better than what I've experienced with a Cadillac.
I had wonderful experience from the Cadillac dealership. but to be honest I never take the Hyundai to the dealership (well just once).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
an '03 Elantra with 100k miles is now worth about $4k, while a similar Civic is about $3k more. Same price gap, but if you think in terms of depreciation, the Hyundai dropped 60% while the Honda only dropped 47%. The extra $3k you spent up front would not be lost because you get that same $3k now.
(Numbers are for Elantra GLS automatic with cruise control vs Civic LX automatic. Based on KBB trade-in values.)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I can see that making for some looooonnng days!! When that happens, how do you keep yourselves from dying of boredom?
That means advantage to Huyndai for financed purchases (interest payments are higher in Honda with the same downpayment), advantage to Hyundai for tax (lower sales tax based on lower price), advantage to Hyundai on repairs (longer warranty period for original owner). Seems Hyundai is better choice when taking finances to account.
So what are real advantages to Honda?
1. Gas mileage (consistently better for all comparable models), which offsets some finances.
2. Brand Image.
3. Handling (most people agree Hondas are better handling)
4. Some people may find their designs/interiors better, but it's purely subjective.
Assuming partial offset from gas mileage, Honda seems to be just slightly more expensive choice, but a bit better in terms of subjective qualities. Looks like a tie to me...
Now imagine if Hyundai continues its progress without substantial price hikes, it will likely overtake Honda in 5-10 years. Of course that is a big if, as improvements are always getting smaller and smaller with your progress (and usually cost more).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
absolutely. hyundai has offered this warranty since 1999, yet they have made money each year since then, meaning they aren't losing a bunch of money backing up this warranty so obviously since they continue with this warranty, more people don't use than do.
the rebate is $1000 (although if you finance with hmfc as of 2/14, you get an additional $1000 rebate).
the limiteds stickers start at 23,645 with and invoice of 22,182, so if you got one at invoice with the $2k in rebates then you are still higher than the $19k advertised by this dealership. all i can say is read the fine print in the ad.
hey, thats great. the price just seemed too low to be true considering used 06 sonatas with similar equipment sell for that price.
rover, did that lady on the volvo xc90 call back and offer her ridiculous amount again? did you end up taking it to auction? haven't heard about that recently...
any crazy new stories moo or boomchek?
TGIF!
-thene
1. Gas mileage (consistently better for all comparable models), which offsets some finances. "
not anymore. the sonata (bot 4 cyl, and v6 get better mpgs than the accord), the elantra is 2 less in the city and 4 less on the highway, the santa fe gets the same as the pilot, the tucson gets the 1 less in the city and 2 less on the highway than the crv.
By the way, it will be VERY INTERESTING to see new EPA mileage estimates for 2008 models.
I suspect it may be shattering to some vehicles. I may be wrong, but I suspect that some highway numbers may go substantially down for those smaller displacement Japanese engines (there is a substantial difference in engine demand between 55 and 70 mph if you don't have a lot of torque) and conversely city mileage numbers will suffer in large GM pushrods (push you gas pedal just a bit harder harder and you hear gulps in your tank). We shall see of course...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Brand/reputation/image etc. matter to some folks, whether we like it or not. If you meet/drive clients, Honda vehicle may not get in the way the same way that Hyundai might. The perceptions of the public at large matter although it is difficult to attach numbers to those facets...
Given Edmunds TCO, buying a Hyuandai is still "penny wise, pound foolish", if we consider the fact that there is still a good (yes, not huge) probability that you may have to sell/total any vehicle you own at ANY time.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Do they say, "Well, I don't know - this (Brand 1) only gets 23.75 Miles Per Gallon, and the (Brand 2) gets 23.89" or do they say, "Gee this is nice, but I really like the color of the seats on the Brand 2", or is it feature driven? "Gee, the snooterglimmer on the Brand 2 is really a nice feature, but I'd give it up if you give me a $500 break on this Brand 1"
Questions, questions, questions....
No...you would have to deduct more for me. A well designed snooterglimmer is worth a heck of a lot more than $500
90% of the dicussions are price driven though. usually within the first minute of talking to a customer they will always ask about how much a discount they can get.
i personally think the new sonata is every bit as nice as a camry or accord (in fact it looks like an accord). in fact most people that come in to look at the sonata are very impressed with what hyundai has done.
But that's the way to bet.