Stories from the Sales Frontlines

oldfarmer50

I'm watching Discovery Channel and a show called Turn & Burn. It's about some car flippers who look like motorcycle bandits.

One segment had them buying a 65 T-bird that was stuck in the bushes for $700 but when they tried to drive it down a hill they found out it had no brakes. They finally got it down the hill and at the bottom sold it for $4500.

Another car was a late 60s Chrysler that they repainted that ugly flat black with a speckled pink roof. They couldn't give it away at the auction but he managed to sell it to 5 guys from Belgium for $5k.

Kind of like a low rent Fast & Loud.

roadburner

The Turbo; a very advanced car for its time- although it used the M10 engine which was introduced in 1962- and remained in production through the mid '80s.

cdnpinhead

Shoes are for drum brakes; pads are for disc brakes.

snakeweasel

1) I have a friend

Ok if you want a new car every few years and don't drive to much a lease is the way to go. However getting a new car every few years is not good economic sense. Since cars, like most assets, depreciate faster at the beginning of their lives all you are doing is incurring the high depreciation rate on a continuing basis.

It's better to keep the car for longer periods and these days cars do last a lot longer than ever before.

2)I needed an SUV to start my business.

There are tax write offs for purchased vehicles which can be as high or higher than leased cars.

3) I have a friend who has a young son

40 miles each way comes up to almost 20K miles a year just for commuting. He would be killed on overage charges and if he bought the extra miles upfront the lease payments would not be much different than a loan payment, maybe higher.

explorerx4

Looking to replace the SRX?

stickguy

not always true.

but, this buy vs. lease argument is off tangent. Leasing is nothing more than an alternate method of financing.

and discussion about eating early depreciation has nothing to do with leasing or buying. That is really a discussion about how long to keep your car.

like the Civic guy. If he is getting a new one every 3 years, he eats 3 years of depreciation whether he buys for cash, finances, or leases.

so if you want to say that leasing is more expensive because you are getting a new car every 3 years, fine. But if you trade in every 3 years, you take the same hit.

actually, leasing for a person that does not intend to keep a car a long time has the advantage of cost certainty. They know what they are getting in 3 years for it. buyers have to guess!

explorerx4

Some brands subsidize their leases, in other words the buy out can be much higher than the trade value at lease end.
When leasing, try to put down the least cash possible.

kyfdx

"Shoes are for drum brakes; pads are for disc brakes."

This...

driver100

He and the Civic owner will probably never get off the leasing treadmill.

Sometimes other factors are more important than actual dollars saved. The Civic owner prefers to lease because he likes to keep his life uncomplicated...the extra money to lease is money well spent for him.

The student will work and save and save up for a downpayment for his next car. For now, it is better to have a reliable car for getting to his all new important first real career job.

Me leasing a Jeep to start my new business. Well, leasing worked for me. I could put money into the business instead of using it for a downpayment.
Also, it made me feel good driving a new Jeep though I was hardly making any money in the early years. It made me work harder to maintain the Jeep. I might not have felt as good delivering books in a rust bucket. There is psychology at work here....I felt good and I could walk in and feel successful.

We may have to agree to disagree. I call worrying about a few dollars "false economy" if it holds you back. I am not saying spend foolishly, but you can try to save money and it will actually cost you more in the long run.
I may not have got the business rolling if I had an old unreliable car, the fellow with the Civic would get overly anxious negotiating a new car, and the young fellow could lose his job if he is late...also a new car gives him an incentive and makes him feel better about himself too.

driver100

1) faster at the beginning of their lives all you are doing is incurring the high depreciation rate on a continuing basis.

It's not always about money. It's sometimes whether you can afford it, and how will it make you feel, not to mention, whether you will be on time for your new job.

2)There are tax write offs for purchased vehicles which can be as high or higher than leased cars

I was juist starting my business so it is much easier to calculate expenses with a lease. If you buy it's 30% first year, 20% 2nd year, 10% 3rd year. Good for later when an accountant did my taxes. But, more importantly, I could use the downpayment money to put into the business.

3) 40 miles each way comes up to almost 20K miles a year just for commuting.

True, but he can buy the car back after 3 years when he has saved some money on the side. In the meantime he won't be late because of an unreliable car.

If leasing is used wisely in certain situations, it can be a good thing.

Sandman6472

We lived in Briarcliff Manor and remember the Tappan Zee, in fact I crossed it in '06 when I left my cousins in Westport to go to Baltimore. Could not afford Westchester anymore...way too expensive! Will be back in a few years for another reunion but plan to drive up so I can have my wheels and see some friends. Nice place to grow up.

The Sandman

mako1a

"Shoes are for drum brakes; pads are for disc brakes."

cdpinhead was surely correct. I was thinking of the old days when the asbestos was glued instead of riveted and the pad would actually come off the metal.

jayrider

If you always have a car payment, then leasing is attractive from payment perspective. Your car is never more than 3 years old and you keep on making the monthly payment. Some states like Illinois are very unfriendly to leasing. If you lease a 30000 car you pay 6.5% and have to roll that into your payment every time you change cars every 3 years.

sterlingdog

Thank you and cdpinhead so much for your quick response.

Richard

sterlingdog

No, I plan to keep it for a good while. The convertible is the one that I plan to replace.

Richard

bwia

but, this buy vs. lease argument is off tangent. Leasing is nothing more than an alternate method of financing.

To the contrary. Leasing is an alternative form of financing only when it is a capital lease--the substance over form argument. However, for operating leases, the typical consumer lease, the arrangement is no more than a rental, like renting from Hertz over 36 months rather daily or weekly. To repeat, from a strictly economic perspective, leasing is always more expensive than buying.

stickguy

Semantics. from the buyers perspective, it is just another way of financing a purchase. and it does not have to be more expensive than buying a car. the key being, if you lease you lock in depreciation. With a buy and trade in after 36 months, you are at the mercy of the market.

plenty of people came out way ahead on big SUVs leasing when gas was cheap and residuals high, and 36 months later you could not give them away.

driver100

If you lease a 30000 car you pay 6.5%

Here you pay sales tax (unfortunately 13% - 5% federal and 8% provincial tax, but don't laugh, you will probably get a federal sales tax soon too) on each lease payment. If you buy a car you pay it on the cost of the car.

If you are going to lease a new car every 3 years you could pay a lot less in actual sales tax.

btw...is that 6.5% what you pay on the full $30,000 or just on the payments you make?

driver100

To repeat, from a strictly economic perspective, leasing is "always" more expensive than buying.

I could think of cases where a lease could end up being cheaper than buying.
See sticks post below yours for an example. If you do trade in 3 years it may cost less to just roll over into another car, rather than pay sales tax on the full value of the car.

Also, there could be lease incentives, and cars that hold their value also have lease deals that could be attractive, especially compared to borrowing in some cases.

jayrider

You pay the 6.5% on the purchase price. $1950 (30k) which you add into the cost of the lease. Divide by the term of the lease 24 or 36 and you have the add to number for each payment.

28firefighter

I figured I would pipe in on this because I was in a similar position. I just leased a 2013 VW CC - because of lease cash/dealer cash and a very poor residual (48%), this car would be cheaper to lease for 3 years and buy at the end than to buy it new today. It would also be cheaper than a 2-3 year used CC would have cost me today (at least in Seattle) to buy.

Generally speaking however, leasing is a losing proposition unless you can get a screaming deal either through a very inflated residual, lease cash, or a combination of both.

nyccarguy

Short answer - I'd give it a solid 8. Would I get another one? Absolutely.

For our family of 5, there is simply NO vehicle that fits our needs better. It is comfortable and very spacious on the inside. The 2nd row & 3rd row fold completely flat. Seating 7 real sized people is not a problem. Power is adequate, but never sluggish. There is storage everywhere. It has good ground clearance, an extremely capable 4WD system. After over 42,000 plus miles in almost 2 1/2 years the car is still as tight as the day we took delivery of it.

I see you are looking to get rid of the convertible. You already have the SRX, why look at another SUV?

nyccarguy

Not just for businesses, but regular people too;). As long as you understand it. Let's use stickguy as an example: He barely does any driving, but wants a car. So he goes out and leases a $42,000 car. His lease payments would be based on that car's 56 - 60 % residual value after 3 years. That $42,000 car would cost him $700 per month to finance over 60 months.

No equity? Guess what, if the residual wasn't subsidized (like my BMW), there is a good chance stick guy might be able to trade in his 3 year old leased car with 15,000 miles on it in perfect condition instead of just turning into the leasing company. His leased car will be worth more than the end of lease buyout. More money in his pocket.

Leasing is nothing more than an alternative way of financing. Take my BMW. Finance payment would have been $120 per month more than my lease payment. The residual is set high (subsidized) & there are cars like mine out there now selling for less than why my projected residual will be 1 year from now.

graphicguy

mako...I recorded that car auction, too. Started watching it last night. Geez-Louise....40 minutes into the show and not one car had been auctioned yet. I finally turned it off. Maybe fast forward to the auction part (DVR says the program is 3 hours long, though) when I have more time.

robr2

Also, there could be lease incentives, and cars that hold their value also have lease deals that could be attractive, especially compared to borrowing in some cases.

Like these:

http://www.bochtoyota.com/toyota-disclosures.asp

driver100

You pay the 6.5% on the purchase price. $1950 (30k) which you add into the cost of the lease

That isn't fair. You should only pay tax on the portion of the car you use. That is a scam!

In calculating a lease vs owning, that shouldn't be considered as it probably only occurs in your state....citizens should be rebelling.

driver100

, this car would be cheaper to lease for 3 years and buy at the end than to buy it new today.

I am glad you gave your CC as an example, but I think there could be a time when leasing is good for other reasons...not just a great lease deal.

It's like renting a home. Usually not the best idea, better to own and build equity. But, if you are going to be moving every 2 or 3 years you may be better off renting. If you are like my older brother and have no interest in maintaining your own home, then you should just rent.

Same with a car! A knowledgeable writer should not say buying is ALWAYS better than leasing, your example shows that.

Just because something is cheaper doesn't mean it is better for every one.

How do you like the CC? How does it compare to the Volvo?

driver100

Leasing is nothing more than an alternative way of financing. T

Leasing a luxury car should definitely be considered. It may be a really good idea to lease a Tesla rather than buy one. I am sure the technology will improve in 3 years. Who knows what problems these cars may have.

Usually buying is better, but not ALWAYS!

driver100

Also, there could be lease incentives,

Good one Rob!

Brand New 2013 Camry LE Automatic
Buy for $ 18,490
Available 0% APR for up to 60 months with approved credit
Lease for $99 / month for 24 months with $1900 down cash or trade
Net Cap Cost : $ 18,250
Residual: $ 15,976*

That is an amazing deal and for someone who knows they will be trading in after 3 years it seems attractive. In the fine print there was a $750 reduction if you just graduated, and you have to take the car the same day, which may mean they could give you a low price on your trade-in.

With the $1900 down + $750 if you are not a recent graduate, your real monthly cost is about $215 a month, still not bad for a new car. Funny how that $1900 and the $750 really add to the monthly payment, $99 sounds so much better.

jwm40517

In some states you only pay the sales or use tax on the lease payment, not the entire value of the vehicle.

mako1a

mako...I recorded that car auction, too

I watched all 3 hours. It was amazing what those rusted relics with 1 mile on the odometer were bringing. A lot of 53-57 C-10 pickups were going for $40k just because of the near zero mileage. Two years from now I expect the 495 cars sold to blossom into thousands of claims of an old/new 2 mile vehicle from that auction. The 76 or 78 (I forget) Indy Vette brought around $97k. A new one is less than that!

nyccarguy

Just did some quick calculations. After 30 months I will have spent $17,160 in lease payments. If I would have financed the car for 60 months, I'd have made $20,760 worth of payments (& owe another $20,760). Just in monthly payments, I'd have made $3,600 more. So let's say (for argument's sake) that I decide to trade the car in after 2 1/2 years (30 months) for whatever reason. I owe $20,760 & the dealer tells me that due to the mileage (50,000) & the fact there is a large supply of 2011 328xis (most with between 25 & 30K miles), that he can only offer me $17,500 or $18,000. That's another $3,260 it will cost me. So in theory, by leasing I saved myself $6,760 & I only have to pay sales tax on the portion of the car I used.

bwia

That is an amazing deal and for someone who knows they will be trading in after 3 years it seems attractive.

That is an awful deal. In the purchase scenario the car is financed over 5 years. If you leased instead you would have to sign three separate 2-year leases in the same period. That might friend is throwing money out the window.

dino001

Did you include fees in that, both acquisition and disposal, plus mileage penalty you'll likely pay if you don't get another BMW (perhaps you pay it even if you did)? You'd not pay those if you bought the car. However, even if your math is a bit "optimistic", it's still decent savings. However, it is conditioned on that trade-in behavior. If you stay with your car for next 3-5 years, even with some decent repairs and sales tax, the math would change quickly toward purchase. I ran it when I was buying my wagon - lease subsidies were much lower on that one, if at all (probably some residual inflation, not so much money factor discount), the payment ratio was much much closer, especially if you set no downpayment (as one should). But of course, you would not enjoy a new car smell. I was happy to take 3.8% financing (could have been as much as 5% at the time) and refinance it quickly to 2.6%+$200+stamps.

There is another aspect of it - the math works only because BMW decided to take forgo some good profit on your car in multiple ways: inflated residual, below market money factor AND closeout pricing. If the lease were priced correctly (i.e. market value of residual, money factor in line with bank interest rates) and you were buying say new 2012 328, you'll see six grand differential quickly disapearing.

No doubt, at the time you were acquiring your 328 xi, lease was the way to go, even if you have to pay some mileage penalty at the end. However, you need to understand, it was highly conditional advantage that can quickly disapear, if terms of the sale are not as advantageous as yours.

mako1a

There were some high rollers at this one. I was thinking $4k on the pickups, but they brought 10 times that in a lot of cases. I would have bought the old tow truck (it went for 5k).

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/09/29/227495741/the-142-000-pickup-truc- k-with-1-3-miles-tops-vintage-car-auction?ft=1&f=1001

nyccarguy

You know what, I neglected to put my $725 lease acquisition fee & $350 disposition fee into the equation. I agree with what you said 100%. If BMW FS didn't inflate the residual value to subsidize the lease & offer $3,500 in cash incentives ($2,500 rebate plus 2, $500 payment credits), I'd most likely still be driving my 2010 Acura TSX which would have approximately 80,000 miles on it. Surprisingly, the lease money factor isn't that cheap. I could have financed for 60 months @ 0.9%.

If everything were "market value," the delta as they say would be much closer;)

I won't be going over the mileage. I've got my Prelude which wil see some more road time again starting next spring. I'll also most likely purchase my next vehicle Labor Day Weekend next year.

How are your new tires BTW?

dino001

They're allright overall, but not as good in rain as the sport summer Contis were when new (to remind you, I got Bridgestone Potenzas 960, which are all-season). I feel the rear getting happy on fast turns, like highway ramps, which was not the case for new Contis. However, if those Bridgestones last a bit longer, say 35K miles, the trade was worth it. Will see.

driver100

That might friend is throwing money out the window.

Not if you would like a new car in 2 years and a few $1000s doesn't really matter that much to you.

You will be driving a shiny new trouble free car....signing a lease agreement isn't that much paperwork.

Like I say, my friend leases a Civic every 3 years. He doesn't want the hassle of trying to sell his trade or the dealer giving him a low price for it. He wants a new car every three years so it is warrantied. Sometimes saving money is not as important as just trying to make your life as stress free as possible. He is far from wealthy, just retiring comfortably, doesn't want extra stress. He prefers to just sign up for a new lease every 3 years, they take back his old car and away he goes for a few dollars more a month.

Something to be said for peace of mind and simplifying one's life if that is important to you.

nyccarguy

Gotcha. I couldn't be happier with my Michelin Primacy MXM ZPs. I too was very happy with the stock Continentals until I Michelined up on all 4 corners. I agree that I'll take some longer tread life with a little less performance.

The Michelins corner better, are quieter, softer when I can't avoid potholes, take off better, & they even "stick out" a little to give me some curb rash protection.

oldfarmer50

Put the Vette out in front of the house Sunday and the phone rang before I had walked back in. First guy was kinda of a flake, very suspicious, didn't seem to know too much about cars. When I mentioned that I had replaced the leaking valve cover gaskets he gasped and said ". What happened, did it overheat?". He seemed to confuse head and valve cover gaskets. Said he would BE BACK next Sunday. I figured he wouldn't.

Today the phone rings and a guy is calling from the driveway. He starts it up, looks it over but doesn't ask to drive it. :confuse: says he likes it, we haggle and we agree to $100 over Haggerty valuation. Little less than I wanted, little more than he wanted to pay. So I guess a fair transaction. $3500 which wasn't bad for an 80's car with 136k miles and considering the considerable restoration it needed

dino001

Yes, the Bridgestones are quieter, too. However, it's not fair to compare the road noise between end of life and new tire, especially those run-flats (they get really noisy when worn out). So I can't say for sure, if the noise difference is due to wear, or it is actually due to tire design. Will see when they get older.

Kirstie_H

HOSTS: I can only do images and formats if I start a new post, not if I do a reply, this has been going on for a long time now. I think I should get a partial refund.

Same with Emotorcons. Sorry, bud.

We're working on transitioning to a new forums software platform, so anything that isn't critically broken (e.g., forums totally inaccessible) isn't likely to get fixed as all of our tech resources are focused on the transition.

The good news is that such technical messes shouldn't happen once we transition. We have no support from our current software provider, which is a big cause of the recurrent tech issues we've been having.

driver100

We're working on transitioning to a new forums software platform,

Thanks for the explanation....I kind of thought it was something along those lines, but, it is nice to actually know.

jayrider

In the vast market for used older Corvettes, yours was probably in the top 5% irrespective of it's needs. It won't take much to bring the exterior and interior back to primo knock your socks off appearance . All he needs is a friend that works on Vettes, and he will have very cool ride to use or flip for a few bucks.

cdnpinhead

"We're working on transitioning to a new forums software platform . . ."

Is this likely to be done in our lifetime? Bear in mind that several of us are, well, old.

Seriously, is there a target date for this wonder?

isellhondas

" a new forums software platform"

Again??

****SHUDDER****

One of the times that happened, I lost all of my seniority along with my pension and other benefits.

Kinda like the government or a car salesperson saying..." trust me"

stickguy

Wait, I thought we had a deal? I was taking it home on my next trip to Amsterdam!

last time I do business with a farmer.

stickguy

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

houdini1

I haven't even thought about the possibility of losing our PENSIONS. Kirstie knows we are too old for that so surely she will take care of us. I was just getting ready to apply for mine.

Kirstie_H

We don't have a definite date yet, and that's because we're still working with the vendor to make sure everything transitions smoothly. Once we do, we'll let everyone know so you won't be surprised.

isellhondas - time flies when you're having fun, eh? The last software change was 12 years ago. It's really not an option to stay with this vendor, because they're no longer supporting us, and we can't grow or add options, or even get anything fixed.

I'm sure there will be differences, but we're trying hard to make it all look as "familiar" as possible, while adding features that people want/expect in forums these days - simple stuff like private messaging, easy reply-and-quote, easy formatting (bold, italics, etc), and image uploading.