Stories from the Sales Frontlines

lrguy44

Not directed at you - we always excuse an equal opportunity basher. Especially one who doesn't mind being bashed once in awhile. Or is there guilt on your mind?

jipster

Or is there guilt on your mind?

Thanks... but that's an issue between Dr. Phil and myself to discuss.

volvomax

Break out the Clear Eyes... or Visine. I would be one of those people. We financed for 4 years and "plan" on keeping for 10 years. We did put a sizeable amount down though.

Well, good for you.
17 million cars get sold in the US every year.
The VAST majority to people who have no intention of keeping them for 10 yrs.

snakeweasel

Those people you can put in your eyelid.
Just doesn't happen anymore.

Really? I would have thought with the greater reliability of cars now it would be more common, 20 years ago I knew one person with a 10 year old car (the guy still has it, a Volvo with over 400K on it), now I know several people with 10 year old cars or closing in on the ten year mark (bought new). Plus there are a lot on these boards boasting of their old high mileage cars.

snakeweasel

It is 100% unfair to blame us for decisions that other people make.

I am not blaming you for that, I am pointing out the contradictory statements sales people post here.

user777

i don't know. maybe at your store shopping for your product in your area?

we exist.

co-worker of mine is still driving his '94 accord I4 5M with 192K. clutch excellent, tight, engine purrs. great car.

add two more to the count.

volvomax

It has ZERO to do w/ the cars.
It has to do w/ people's attitudes.
People just don't want to keep cars for a long time.

volvomax

No matter how many you think you can find, it is a DROP IN THE BUCKET, as far as the number of cars bought and sold annually.

snakeweasel

It has to do w/ people's attitudes.

Agreed and more and more people are keeping cars longer.

lrguy44

If that were the case, the industry would not have increasing new car sales. Also, shorter term leases are very prevalent, and that doesn't explain why many people trade when they are upside down. But I guess you don't walk in our shoes so you are the expert.

driveright

You cannot have their best interests at heart and stand there and watch them make bad financial decisions without at least talking about it.

What you are describing is a fiduciary relationship, or something similar to it. The salesperson's responsibility is to promote the interests of the dealership, within the bounds of law and honesty, while at the same time meeting the needs and desires of the customer to make a transaction. A sales relationship cannot be one in which the interests of the customer are primary, and a fiduciary relationship cannot involve selling.

I don't work in the auto industry, but I think you are way off base with your line of argument.

snakeweasel

If that were the case, the industry would not have increasing new car sales.

Not necessarily. Since the population is growing it is possible for people to hold on to cars longer and for new car sales to increase.

While it is an awfully small segment of the population there are still more people keeping cars much longer.

jmonroe

Cars cost too much for most people to finance for 3-4 yrs, and most new car buyers want a new car every few years.

Did I just hear "NEGATIVE EQUITY" ?

You can put me in the short column of people who keep their cars at least 8 years but I definitely agree with you that those like me are by far the exception rather than the rule. For you guys in the biz this is a good thing, otherwise you would be doing something else and not posting here.

jmonroe

punkr77

I think people are keeping cars longer. But, if you work at a dealer, it would probably seem like everyone is trading left and right since you see the trade every two years people show up at dealers 5 times as often as that guy who keeps his for 10 years. Kinda like if you worked at a doctors office, it would seem like almost everyone is sick since sick people at the doctors outnumber the people there for physicals 10 to 1.

A lot of the people who hold onto cars also are the ones that buy 1 or 2 year old cars to begin with, then hold them out to 100K+.

From personal experience, I know people will go in looking for one thing and walk out with another. My wife and I went to the Honda dealer to look at the Element SC and CRV since she wanted something with a lot of cargo room. We're trapsing across the lot when she points to the Civic Si and says "Oooh, what's that? It's pretty." One 15 minute test drive later and she was hooked. I'll bet that's how a lot of the sports cars get sold. Guy in his 50's goes in to buy an accord or ford 500 and walks out with a S2000 or Mustang Convertible.

tidester

Do I still get to keep my VIP membership in your fan club?

Consider yourself on probation. :P

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

plekto

Guy in his 50's goes in to buy an accord or ford 500 and walks out with a S2000 or Mustang Convertible.
***
Not. in. the. same. sentance. please.

Nobody's going to fault you for a S2000. Even Top Gear like it. The other thing... nasty.

jlawrence01

s there ever really ONE best car in a particular situation? In most cases there are four or five options that will work.

For what it's worth I also agree with this approach.

I read a WSJ article this evening where the author was talking about the PARADOX OF CHOICE - that is, while you think that it is great to be able to choose between MANY options, that you tend to be unhappier as you are always trying to find the BEST option or the best alternative.

Most of my earlier vehicles were bought FOR me with little input. My brother would call me, let me know what kind of deal he worked out, and how much to make the check out for. On two occasions, I had to call back and ask "what did I buy?"

Now I have 6-8 options with a list of pluses and minuses for each model. All the options will work out pretty well in that they'll get me the 10 miles to/from work without any problem. It has been a lot less pleasant.

jmonroe

On two occasions, I had to call back and ask "what did I buy?"

While I don’t get excited about buying a car, even I show more interest than this.

Now I have 6-8 options with a list of pluses and minuses for each model. All the options will work out pretty well in that they'll get me the 10 miles to/from work without any problem. It has been a lot less pleasant.

Those that read this board know I like to keep things simple. Having 6-8 choices is way too complicated for me. Since you don’t seem to be too particular, why don’t you give yourself a break and try the ‘dart method’?

jmonroe

punkr77

I drive a last gen Mustang now. I'm not really impressed with the new ones. It's one of the few cars that looked great the first time I saw it, but grows uglier every time I look at it. Usually it's the other way around. Driving it reminds me of driving a tank looking through view slits. Add in its serious obesity problem, and I won't be buying another.

But as a mid-life crisis car, I bet it's at or near the top of the charts.

jmonroe

Consider yourself on probation.

It's a good thing I'm not sitting in your seat.

I would have done him a lot worse than that, especially after he conned Mrs. jmonroe out of some of her newly found couch-money. :mad:

jmonroe

jipster

tidester writes: Consider yourself on probation

Consider myself on probation? ... I never knew I was off! :confuse:

This must be some new double secret probation, and you inadvertently let the cat out of the bag.

jmonroe writes: ...especially after he conned Mrs. jmonroe out of some of her newly found couch-money.

I knocked on the door, stated I was a federal couch inspector. Mrs. jmonroe was kind enough to let me do my inspection,and take a handful of loose change as evidence. She agreed to keep the smelly socks hidden under the cushions. :sick:

murphydog

Thankfully snake never makes contradictory statements...

tidester

I never knew I was off!

I should have said "Consider yourself on extended probation."

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

jmonroe

She agreed to keep the smelly socks hidden under the cushions.

Those were hers and I don't care about them, it's the cash that bothers me cause that was mine and she had no business letting you have it. If that was her mall-money she would never have been so quick to believe that line you gave her.

jmonroe

cole

Have any of you salespeople (or lurkers!) ever gone through sales training outside of that offered by your dealership? I'm currently in a Dale Carnegie class... Very interesting stuff.

isellhondas

Over the years I've done all of that and have been a trainer myself. Like anything, some of it is excellent and some not so hot. Dale Carnegie is outstanding.

toomanyfumes

I have to agree on the new Mustangs. I loved them when they first came out, but I find the styling kind of boring now. Of course, if someone wanted to give me a new Cobra, I could learn to live with it!! :shades:

benzserviceguy

Then come to Cali & enjoy the warmth & sunshine ...
You probably won't be able to find a suitible house to buy but it sure is warm here ...

Then again ISELL thinks Cali is a pit of venomous snakes & scoundrals (VERY true on the Sales side)
You could always try the 'dark' side (service side)

jlawrence01

Having 6-8 choices is way too complicated for me. Since you don’t seem to be too particular, why don’t you give yourself a break and try the ‘dart method’?

Actually, I am using the rental method. Have eliminated several of the choices and the decision is becoming more clear.

gogiboy

I wonder if anyone else has run into a dealer installed option called nitrogen tires (fill). One of my local Honda dealer's Civic EX had this "upgrade" installed for $99. I would guess that it must be utilized to extend the life of the tires? Wouldn't the buyer also have to get periodic nitrogen infusions to maintain the proper nitrogen/air mix?

It was only done to one of the Civics (although I didn't check the other Honda models). I did hear Click and Clack make a disparaging comment on their program about the practice, but they didn't clarify their problem with it.

Does the nitrogen infusion fall under the questionable category of paint protection, upholstery protection or pinstriping or is there really some merit to having this done? I did see that the valve caps were a nice lime green color.

Gogiboy

snakeweasel

IIRC Race cars, long haul truckers and airplanes fill their tires with nitrogen. The ideal is that nitrogen molecules are larger than air molecules hence it seeps out of tires at a far slower rate. this allows the tires to maintain proper pressure longer giving you longer tire life (as properly inflated tires last longer) and better gas mileage (as properly inflated tires give you better gas mileage).

Wouldn't the buyer also have to get periodic nitrogen infusions to maintain the proper nitrogen/air mix?

Actually it would be pure nitrogen, air is mostly nitrogen. And yes you would have to fill low tires with pure nitrogen to keep the same effect but you can fill up with compressed air too.

As for the $99 its pretty much a rip off, I have seen this offered for anywhere from $5 to $10 per tire. Also if you are one of those people who regularly check tire pressure it most likely will not save you that much money.

imidazol97

>installed option called nitrogen tires (fill).

It's another ripoff. Some tire dealers have tried to use this to confuse customers who don't understand science. The Tire Discounters chain in Cincinnati has used this in their ads for years now. One time the ad read that the molecules were smaller therefore better; next time they were bigger, therefore better.

Air is about 80% nitrogen to begin with. So you're already protected-grin.

In reality the purpose of minimizing oxygen for truck tires was to extend life of the rubber since they apparently was recapped over and over reusing the same basic tire carcass. Myself, I throw away my old tire casings when I want new tires on my Buicks.

The quality tires for autos was treated to resist effects of oxygen in the air. AND how does the tire dealer put nitrogen into the tire while installing it on the rim? There's always going to be an initial amount of air inside the sidewalls and rim when tire is mounted--unless they have a mechanic with an oxygen mask and put the tire and rim into a sealed room containing only nitrogen. They certainly don't pull a vacuum on the tire to remove all air before installing nitrogen.

Big joke. Actually unethical because of the way it's presented but that doesn't stop some businesses. Totally unnecessary. Just check your tire pressures every couple of weeks and when the outside temp goes down on average as seasons change because the pressure drops about 1 pound per 10 deg. F.

snakeweasel

Air is about 80% nitrogen to begin with. So you're already protected-grin.

Air is 78% nitrogen which means that 22% is other. You have your tires at 32 PSI and you start losing that other 22% you can quickly get below the proper inflation and drop down to pressures that will cost you gas and tire life. Having pure nitrogen in your tires means that that will happen over a lot longer amount of time. Thus it will save you in the long run.

However if you are one to check your tire pressure on a regular basis and keep them properly inflated then you won't have that issue.

It does actually help but IMO not enough that other actions (like keeping an eye on your tire pressure) cannot be substituted. In short I wouldn't go for it.

imidazol97

>You have your tires at 32 PSI and you start losing that other 22% you can quickly get below the proper inflation

You don't lose the other 20%... You lose all of the mixture of molecules at the same rate. Most seeps are just that, seeps. The slightly larger molecules of nitrogen 2 are only slower to permeate the lining of the tire and get to the inner rubber. When there's a seep at the rim, everything goes; nail through tread, everything goes; etc.

The size difference of the nitrogen molecule in one source is 300 pm (picometers) while oxygen is 3% smaller at 292 pm.
Not much difference in size folks!

If posters are concerned about the allegedly pure nitrogen in their tires (ain't gonna get that at your normal tire store) and the 80%/20% mix of normal air at sea level with a little CO2 and other gases mixed in, just send me $5 per year per tire and I'll guarantee you won't have trouble with the oxygen present deteriorating your tires for the normal less than 6 years recommended for tires to be on the ground! I also have select bridges available for lease or sale!

http://theforcethat.blogspot.com/2007/02/nitrogen-for-tires.html

The promise in this case of 1000% to 3000% profit must encourage lots of tire stores to go into "the business" and become believers. At 3-4 fills a day they suggest $2000 per month additional profit. Maybe I should open my own tire store!

I'm off the Sales Frontline and Stories since most dealerships are not doing the nitrogen molecule dance.

cwalti

if you buy your tires at Costco, the nitrogen fill up will cost you nothing. I had questioned them at to how they evacuate the present air in order to achieve a pure nitrogen environment. I got some long stares and figured that this means that whatever volume of surrounding air is in the tire will remain there and the rest is pumped up with nitrogen. In hight performance applications, the residual moisture could possibly turn into steam and occupy more volume causing increased pressure and a change in performance characteristics. On the flip-side the moisture can turn into ice-crystals and too have negative effects such as imbalance, ice balls rolling around... For your daily average user there is no tangible benefit, also I always make sure that the dryer in my airline is OK or in an emergency I will pump small amounts directly from a 12V compressor...

imidazol97

>, also I always make sure that the dryer in my airline is OK or in an emergency I will pump small amounts

Right on. Dry is better than nitrogen.

snakeweasel

You don't lose the other 20%... You lose all of the mixture of molecules at the same rate.

Sorry you don't. Depending on a few factors you will lose different gasses at different rates. Those gases with larger molecules will pass through a small microscopic gap at a much slower rate than those of a smaller size.

Unless you have a large leak, one that makes your tire go flat over the period of a day or two your tire will lose less pressure over time with nitrogen than with just air.

The promise in this case of 1000% to 3000% profit must encourage lots of tire stores to go into "the business" and become believers.

I am not arguing the cost issues here, just that there is a point to it. Now is it worth the cost, I say no it isn't. But I don't see the 1000%-3000% profit there either.

snakeweasel

I had questioned them at to how they evacuate the present air in order to achieve a pure nitrogen environment.

I don't think they do, just as you pressurize the tire the amount on non nitrogen gas becomes very small.

In hight performance applications, the residual moisture could possibly turn into steam and occupy more volume causing increased pressure and a change in performance characteristics.

Not likely as since it is under pressure it would take a heck of a lot of heat to make it boil.

For your daily average user there is no tangible benefit,

I agree just keep tabs on your tire pressure and you will be just as good. And you still have to keep tabs on your tire pressure even if you use nitrogen.

cwalti

To have it DRY and FILTERED CLEAN is the most important factor of all...!!

isellhondas

That's what I figured. Costco makes a big deal out of nitrogen. They install green valve stem caps.

oldfarmer50

Oh boy what won't they try next to get into you wallet.

This reminds me of a local car wash that had a sign that said: "Hydrogen Dioxide may be rusting your car! Wash it off here before it's too late!"

Of course, all the smart people on this board know that Hydrogen Dioxide or H2O for short, is RAIN!

On a lighter note, this business about getting "special" air in your tires is similar to an old Candid Camera skit from the 60's. Fanny Flagg approached a number of service stations and asked to have the air in her tires rotated. The looks on the guys' faces was a hoot.

tidester

Those gases with larger molecules will pass through a small microscopic gap at a much slower rate than those of a smaller size.

Not exactly. The leakage rate depends on two factors: molecular size and molecular speed. Leakage rates decrease with molecular size (for a given small aperture) but increase with molecular speed. Speed varies inversely as the square root of the molecular mass.

While the covalent N₂ molecule is only slightly larger than the O₂ molecule, it is almost 7% lighter so at any given temperature, the N₂ molecules move faster than O₂ molecules.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

jipster

Oh boy what won't they try to get into your wallet.

Hydryogen tires? Man, I think I may be getting "jipped" off. My dealership put Helium in my tires, said the lighter vehicular weight from the helium would help increase my gas mileage. Darn.

tidester

lighter vehicular weight from the helium would help increase my gas mileage

Maybe, but you increase your risk due to reduced traction!

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

jipster

but you increase your risk due to reduced traction!

As long as I don't fly off into space or something... Mrs. Jipster would be beside herself.

Good explanation though on molecular theory tidester. Sounds as though you may replace Mr. Shiftright as head of the, "Edmunds Hosts Science Club".

(pssst...tidester. I wrote what you said. Can I be off double secret extended probation now?)

tidester

you may replace Mr. Shiftright as head of the, "Edmunds Hosts Science Club".

I'm sure he will be flattered to learn that he holds such a distinction.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

imidazol97

>Hydrogen Dioxide

That should be dihydrogen oxide.

imidazol97

So that's saying that the nitrogen molecules would be permeating a membrane friendly to them at a greater rate at a particular temperature than would a molecule of oxygen at the same temperature because it's vibrating more slowly?

Is this confusing diffusion with permeation? I tried to find studies of pereation rates for rubber by N and O molecules but wasn't able to access one to see if it is germaine to the discussion.

volvomax

Agreed and more and more people are keeping cars longer.

Really? That is news to me.

gogiboy

Isell and others--

Well, I went back to my local Honda dealer and they appear to have only used the nitrogen fill on one Civic EX. It's a small dealership so they probably don't have more than 25 new Hondas on the lot. I guess they are testing the waters to see if it flies without drama. Two weeks ago they had a Fit with an ADM of $1800 and they sold it pretty quickly so $99.95 for a nitrogen fill is chicken feed--although I wouldn't go for it. I'm considering purchasing a Civic SI sedan from them and they don't seem to be engaging in any monkey business with those. Then again, I haven't gotten down to brass tacks with a salesman either, plus I want to check out the Mazda3 hatchback and Mazdaspeed3 before committing. The two SI sedans have been on the lot for 10-12 weeks so they appear to be slow movers in my truck-biased area.

Gogiboy