Stories from the Sales Frontlines

oldfarmer50

"That should be dihydrogen oxide"

You are 100% right professor. That's the last time I let Ginger and Gilligan tell me how to spell!

tallman1

I'm chuckling to myself trying to picture what it would be like to tell the salesperson that you really want that particular vehicle and you are ready to buy today but you don't want nitrogen in the tires. :shades:

tidester

So that's saying that the nitrogen molecules would be ...

No, it's saying that it won't be all of one and none of the other as another member proposed. To say whether the combined effects of molecular weight and molecular size give a slight edge to either one or the other (O₂ or N₂) requires specific knowledge of the "escape route." In any case, it will not be an all or nothing proposition.

I haven't checked but one could try looking for real world data from one of the big tire companies. It's likely that any advantage of using nitrogen is that it's dry compared with normal air rather than leakage considerations.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

snakeweasel

Well I am glad that you learned something today.

cdnpinhead

is used in aerospace applications to avoid oxidation, otherwise known as rust or corrosion. Sometimes the nitrogen is there to prevent (or reduce the spread of) fire.

The "dry," as others have pointed out, is at least as important as the gas. Dry nitrogen has a dew point way, way below zero.

It's a scam, by the way, for consumer automobile tires.

As if. . .

volvomax

Well I am glad that you learned something today.

Especially from someone who is not in the car business, and has no figures to back himself up.

snakeweasel

Do you have figures to the contrary?

You can read this at this link

"Cars are made better, they are more expensive and people are keeping them longer," says Carter Myers, president of Carter Myers Automotive, a group of Virginia-based dealerships, past chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association and chairman of Automotive Retailing Today, an industry association of manufacturers and dealers.

Or at this link you can read this:

"Americans are spending more on just about everything for their cars because they are keeping them longer."

imidazol97

For auto tires I still think the N2 is unnecessary. The lines inside the tires are meant to minimize if not stop permeation by the air inside including the oxygen. I read that the X-Ones I used to have had the best ability for not losing air pressure over time, which would include the bead seal and the internal layer sealing the air in.

I found a discussion about truck tires on the net last year, but I don't seem to find the article any longer.

Bec

cwalti

...I agree, boiling isn't going to happen very likely. ...or if it is about to boil it will be one of your lesser problems... :-)

mac24

It's likely that any advantage of using nitrogen is that it's dry compared with normal air rather than leakage considerations.

Bingo!

cwalti

If a tire is up to spec NOTHING will leach through the walls or tread surface EVER!!! I had some cheap chrome plated rims on my '91 Accord that had severe plating separation and would not hold pressure. Once the flaking chrome was wire brushed off things were better... I would guess that 99.9% of all leakage is through the valve-stem, either along its base or through the valve body itself, The remaining 0.1% will escape along the bead due to sloppy sealant application or some such thing...

jmonroe

Actually, I am using the rental method. Have eliminated several of the choices and the decision is becoming more clear.

This is good news for both of us.

When you said you were considering 6 to 8 cars, when I thought about you doing this, I got a headache just thinking about what your spread sheet must have looked like.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50

Many farmers put Calcium in the tires of their tractors. This gives extra weight and thus better traction in wet fields.

How's that for beating a dead (plow) horse?

jlawrence01

Shreadsheets for vehivles ... egads, even the accountant in me doesn't do that ... too much.

Seriously, Part of MY problem is I get TOO MUCH help. I was ready to pull the trigger this weekend when my wife pointed out that she liked two other cars better. And my brother is still trying to sell me on a Ford Focus.

cwalti

....stay away from any f... product. I know two peoples who chose to abandon theirs after about two years. They feel and drive nice for about six month, but then the wheels come off...

jmonroe

The leakage rate depends on two factors: molecular size and molecular speed. Leakage rates decrease with molecular size (for a given small aperture) but increase with molecular speed. Speed varies inversely as the square root of the molecular mass.

As best as I can remember this is true. I don’t want to break out my old chemistry/physics books to confirm the completeness of this statement, so let’s consider this to be sufficient info for the sake of this tire discussion.

Since the pressure and temperature of the stuff within a given tire is subjected to these same conditions, we’re back to the fact that the nitrogen molecule thingies are a hair larger than the oxygen molecule thingies and would therefore pass through a given media at a slower flow rate. Thus, in theory, tires filled with nitrogen will keep they're pressure longer. Now, when you consider tires in the real world on real cars, unlike those used during controlled lab experiments go through hell, it's easy to understand why its use is somewhat questionable.

I agree with others here that any perceived benefits of using nitrogen vs. the common variety air, is that nitrogen is dryer than common air. Whether this is a true benefit to the average car owner is just as questionable. So far I haven’t had any problems with common air attacking the materials of any tires I have ever had and believe me I’ve had a lot of them. Too many as far as I’m concerned. In fact, I dislike buying tires more that I do buying cars. When we buy a new car at least we can see something different in our driveways whereas with tires they’re round, black, need more maintenance than cars (air checks, balancing, rotating, etc.) and never give you the mileage that they claim to give. If they did, I’d still have the 80K mile Bridgestones I bought in 1997. They’re long gone.

I also agree with ‘imidazo197’ when he says he has a bridge for sale, me too and if anyone falls for this nitrogen tale, I hope they buy mine first since it’s in better condition because I only allow cars with soft rubber to use my bridge.

jmonroe

jmonroe

I had to edit post 9537 because I inadvertently used "Hydrogen for "Nitrogen" in several places. :sick:

This should have given a few of you guys that caught it a real BANG when you read the original post.

Sorry.

jmonroe

volvomax

All your first link states is that car loans are getting longer, which is untrue. 60 and 72 month loans have been the norm for years.
The article fails to mention the fact that most people in those loans try to trade out prior to the loans maturity.

During my 15 years in the car business, there has been a consistent pattern in peoples buying habits.
The average trade in I see is 4-5 yrs old.
Less than 5% of trades are over 7 yrs old.
I see more 2 yr old cars that 10 yr old cars.
Most of the older cars that I do see were purchased used, so the owner has only had them for a short period of time.

The 2nd link ignores the fact that cars are much more expensive to maintain and repair today due to their greater complexity.
For those people who do keep their new cars much longer, or buy used cars and keep them a few years, the cost of repair and maintenance will increase.
Finally, your assertion flys in the face of the explosion of leasing over the last decade. Even lower end car companies have aggressive lease programs that consumers are taking advantage of.

jlawrence01

In general, I agree with you.

However, most people won't trade in a car 7 yr old or older because they know that they won't get diddley for it. If the car books for $4500 retail, the dealer will give $2500 at most (and that is reasonable). So the individual sells the car privately or holds onto it for their teenager. The dealer never sees it.

As for your second point, as a person who holds onto a car forever, these newer cars are very complex and can br a real PITA to service. One of the reasons I like to buy USED domestic fleet cars is that many of them come WITHOUT electronic windows, seats, etc. that are EXPENSIVE to keep up. Personally, without a couple of godd (and moderately priced) mechanics in the area, I would never keep a car until 150k.

isellhondas

I agree with you too except in our store, we write very few 72 month contracts. 60 months are bad enough!

audia8q

My dealership put Helium in my tires, said the lighter vehicular weight from the helium would help increase my gas mileage.

I like to offer a spring special...I'll replace the old winter air with fresh spring air for only $10 per tire.

jipster

most people won't trade in a car 7 yr old or older because they know that they won't get diddley for it.

Good point. But, the you're "not getting diddley" commment can pretty much apply to any newer car as well. I've never understood people who will nichel and dime, or spend hours and hours in research, and then negotiation on a new car to pay the least amount possible. Then pretty much hand over $1,000's of dollars in lost income by trading in their car to a dealership, instead of doing a private sell.

Yeah...I know all the arguments for trade-in. Still not worth($$$) it.

edited: I guess the above statement probably applies to most of you regular members. I sell my vehicles pre-owned private. For a couple weeks, (every 5 or 6 years)... I get to be just like some of you guys... and be a greenpea salesman.

volvomax

We have written a few 72 month contracts, partly due to the cost of most Volvo's.
However, the vast majority of our finance contracts are written at 60 months

isellhondas

It's not always that easy.

Spme people think they can get full retail for their "excellent" condition used car but this rarely happens.

In states (like ours)that have a sales tax credit, it often makes little sense to go through the pain and risk of trying to sell your car.

As an example, suppose it has a wholesale value of 10,000 and a retail value of say, 12,000. Maybe you can find a private part willing to pay 11,000? Maybe...

So, you trade it and get 10,000, and a 910.00 tax credit, is it worth it. PAying for an ad, sitting by the phone, trying to weed out the flakes etc?

Then they want to take it to their lovely mechanic who I assure you will compile a nice list of things that need attention.

Sometimes it does make sense to sell it yourself but it can be a real PITA too!

jipster

Audia, we had a relatively mild winter this year. So, I think I'm going to try and get a few more miles out of my old winter air tires, before replacing that old/ineffecient/molecularly unstable air... with the fresher spring air.

That is a good price though...10 bucks a tire. Thanks, maybe my dealership will match that price. :P

jipster

Agreed... using your example it would not be worth it. I would even trade in given those circumstances.

But, I would think the difference between the average wholesale and private party sale would be higher than $1,000 on a $10,000- $12,000 vehicle. I guess it's up to each individual to determine at what price it is not worth the bother.

Call me crazy, but I kind of enjoy selling my cars private sale. The only real PITA is when people say they are going to show up and don't. Other than that, it's always been a fairly smooth process(knock on wood).

joel0622

The only real PITA is when people say they are going to show up and don't.
Welcome to our world

jmonroe

That is a good price though...10 bucks a tire. Thanks, maybe my dealership will match that price.

Well, you just gave credence to our friends in the biz who say that car buyers, even when they get a good deal, they just don't know when to stop shopping.

Whose side are you on?

jmonroe

jlawrence01

Then pretty much hand over $1,000's of dollars in lost income by trading in their car to a dealership, instead of doing a private sell.

Generally, I get rid of most of my old (personal) cars at sites like junkmycar.com so that noone charges me to tow it away.

As for private sales, I can see why people DON'T want to do it. Advertise your vehicle in the paper and you will have to deal with anyone who shows up to look at it (even if it is in a public spot).

jipster

whose side are you on?

Still mad about the couch change thing?

But, I did say to have my dealerhsip "match" the price... not beat it. So, clearly I am still with all the other level headed consumers out there.

lrguy44

Not to scare you - we have had several carjackings (several resulting in murder) of people showing private for sale vehicles. I've been in the biz for a long time and I trade for several reasons.
1. strangers coming to door
2. they need to get financed and many lookers have bad credit
3. tax advantage
4. my personal value of time

jipster

1. strangers coming to the door.

You mean like the girl scouts? Don't show the car when home alone. Go out to meet prospective buyer when they first pull up. Or, meet at the public spot of your choice.

2.they need to get financed....

Tell them you're not interested unless they bring a certified check.. you're not a bank.

3. tax advantage

Depends on how much.

4. my personal value of time

To each his own. Doesn't really take much time to sell privately, at least for me.

Kirstie_H

#4 is my greatest motivator. Take 27 calls a day and, 27 the power of two silly questions? Erm... no thanks.

joel0622

The difference would have to be huge for me to bother selling a car on my own. Nothing like giving every idiot in the area directions to your house. Just not safe this day in time. The fact that you have to have the "show it only when I am home" rule should tell ya something. Or if you decide to show in a public place the idea of driving to the mall every time some one calls does not appeal to me either.

jipster

Nothing like giving every idiot in the area directions to your house

Maybe, you and Kristie need to move to better neighborhoods?

I guess I've been pretty lucky. I've sold about 6 cars privately... not one single idiot.

lrguy44

Maybe they should move to lesser neighborhoods - thieves like good neighborhoods. Is that why you have been lucky? (grin)

lrguy44

Another reason to trade is in this day of counterfeit cashier's checks and other frauds, I don't need the problems.

user777

i find that interesting!

cotmc

And I don't need to lose $2500 by accepting a $19K trade-in offer on a car I later sold privately for $23K. Add the 8% sales tax benefit to the trade-in, and the net difference is still about $2.5K.

I usually take exceptionally good care of my cars. I've found that most dealers might appreciate this, but their trade-in offers usually do not reflect it. They only go as high as the wholesale auction prices indicate.

mikefm58

I sold my Mustang a couple years ago and my favorites are the idiots who call and ask questions that are answered in my ad.

Like for sale: 1998 Mustang, green, 6 cyl, auto, etc etc.

Caller: What color is it? Is it an 8 cyl? Does it have stick?

snakeweasel

All your first link states is that car loans are getting longer

Gee the quote about people keeping cars longer is directly from that link.

During my 15 years in the car business, there has been a consistent pattern in peoples buying habits.

You will naturally see far more people trading in 3-5 year old cars. If 10 % of your customers trade every year, 10% every two years so on up to 10 years almost 80% of your average yearly sales will be to people who trade every 5 years or less. So naturally you will see few of the long term cars relatively speaking.

The 2nd link ignores the fact that cars are much more expensive to maintain and repair today due to their greater complexity.

But it does state that people keep cars longer.

But since you don't believe the past chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association on this I don't know what else to tell you.

snakeweasel

However, most people won't trade in a car 7 yr old or older because they know that they won't get diddley for it.

Not to mention that there are some that will drive a car until it has no real value at all and just junk it. I did that with the car I had two cars ago and plan to do it with my current car.

cotmc

"...almost 805 of your average yearly sales will be to people who trade every 5 years or less."

I think you have up to 30 minutes from your original posting to make edits/corrections.

snakeweasel

Thanks

cotmc

Not too long ago, either AutoTrader, or the seller, messed up on the seller's phone number. We received a number of calls one week regarding a Mercedes SLK, which we didn't own. Instead, we had a Volvo for sale. This made for a couple of interesting, albeit confusing, phone conversations!

1racefan

I typically keep my cars a long time, and take really good care of them. I have found that when it comes time to sell, a friend, family member, or friend of a friend will usually be the one that ends up buying the car. There are a lot of people out there that are constantly looking for a well maintained, cheap used car - and I don't have to open myself up to dealing with strangers.

The key to this is utilizing word of mouth advertising with friends and family a few weeks before I am actually ready to buy.

punkr77

There are a lot of other factors that come into play when selling privately vs taking that low-ball trade in.

What car you have will have an effect on what kind of people you're going to deal with. You can imagine the kind of people who would show up at your door for an older sports/muscle car: joy riders, kids with big ideas and small wallets, pimp my ride types. I'm sure it gets better the more boring and new the car is.

Where you live. Selling a used car where I live is difficult. The last car I had to sell at way, way below KBB just to get rid of it. I only ended up with maybe $500 over what the dealer offered me.

If I were a senior or single female, I'd be really loathe to sell private party. Getting in a car with someone you don't really know isn't attractive, but handing someone you don't know the keys and letting them go out for a solo isn't much better.

jasmith52

I typically keep my cars a long time, and take really good care of them. I have found that when it comes time to sell, a friend, family member, or friend of a friend will usually be the one that ends up buying the car. There are a lot of people out there that are constantly looking for a well maintained, cheap used car - and I don't have to open myself up to dealing with strangers.

The key to this is utilizing word of mouth advertising with friends and family a few weeks before I am actually ready to buy.

When you sell a car to family or friends and the car has problems within a year or two then you have a problem. Are you going to pay for any repairs ? Or are you going to hear about the :lemon: car that you sold someone. Or are you going to hear about how you cheated someone ?

That's why some people only sell their used cars to strangers.

1racefan

"When you sell a car to family or friends and the car has problems within a year or two then you have a problem. Are you going to pay for any repairs ? Or are you going to hear about the car that you sold someone. Or are you going to hear about how you cheated someone ?"

I typically try to live my life in an honest way, and most of my friends and family know me well enough to realize I am not going to try to sell them a vehicle with issues without first discloing them.

The last vehicle I sold to a friend, I actually took it to my mechanic, and paid him myself to go over the car, and give a detailed report of anything it may need within the coming months. I gave this report, along with ALL the service records to my friend at the time of purchase. I also had the buyer, along with myself sign a bill of sale when the title was signed, that stated that there is no warranty whatsoever, and that once the title and bill of sale were signed, the car, along with any issue was theirs to deal with.

So no, I am not going to pay for any repairs that may come up within the first year. Friends and family that buy cars from me know that I am going to be honest with them, and they know how the car has been treated while I owned it. I have never (knock on wood) had a problem after a sale, but if someone did come back and accuse me of something, then I would probably write them off from my life - even if they are a family member. Again, the benefit for me is not having to deal with strangers.

"That's why some people only sell their used cars to strangers"

Just remember, there is nothing that says just because you sold your car to a stranger that the stranger won't come back, and try to "get even" with you if something goes wrong.

jmonroe

I typically keep my cars a long time, and take really good care of them.

I told this tale on another forum, therefore, some of you may have seen it in its unedited edition.

Back in the 70’s and 80’s I sold a few cars myself and I didn’t have any problems even though back in those days, in the Pittsburgh area where they salted the roads heavily in winter, before cars had built in rust protection, cars started to look pretty bad after 6 or 7 years. So much so that you could barely bring yourself to look at them. While the cars didn’t look very good mine were always in great running condition and only had 50-60K miles on them since my round trip work commute was less than 6 miles. However, when they got to looking like they did, Mrs. jmonroe pulled the plug on them saying she was embarrassed to go to the supermarket let alone take the kid's anywhere that they would be seen getting out of the car, regardless of what I said or how well they ran.

Like I said I sold them myself with no problems and the buyers ALWAYS commented on how strong and quiet the big V-8 engines were (all were GM 350’s and one had a 455). I even sold one to a body guy who was thrilled to get it and he didn't even try to negotiate the price. In a couple months he brought the car over for me to see what he had done with it, said he'd have that car forever, and asked that I call him the next time I wanted to sell a car. BTW, when Mrs. jmonroe saw it she said, "if I didn't see it with my own eyes I wouldn't have believed it" (boy, isn't that original) to which I said, "see, I told you we should have kept it."

Yes, I tried to call the body guy the next time I was ready to sell, but he had moved without letting me know and the phone company said since they didn't have a forwarding number he probably moved out of the state (Pennsylvania), or was that, he moved to the State Penn. Oh well, his loss.

jmonroe