Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Stories from the Sales Frontlines
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
It's all Tesla pixie dust IMO. It's just another electric car that did it better. There's not one thing in a Tesla list of components that is new. As for disrupting how cars are sold, the only one that will be disrupted will be Tesla, after it tries to do it. A Tesla is not going to scale up like an iPhone.
Actually large power stations are more efficient than a gasoline engine. Even factoring in power losses through transmission.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My aren't we comparing apples to aircraft carriers. Iphones cost 0.05% of what a Tesla costs and that's before they get the carriers subsidy that is around 2/3rds of the cost of the iPhone.
Now let me say this, yes Tesla is another Electric car that did better. Its that "that did better" that means more than anything else. When something does better, either actual or perceived, it makes a big impact.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Perhaps....but the geopolitical and monetary costs of finding and refining oil has become way too high. Electric cars mitigate those energy costs.
Mike: I'm looking forward to hearing your impression of the Model S after your extended test drive. The S is rather different than your recent vehicles, more minimalist and simple throughout the interior. I'm mostly curious to learn what you think of the handling and drivetrain. I hope it's a fun experience!
With Tesala's new and improved electric vehicle this is the start of a new and maybe better vehicle being produced down the road. The Gov't , Oil companies and the Elite will do everything in there powers to limited/ delay or stop this new concept. With all of the above mentioned with there hand in the cookie jar They stand to lose billions of dollars. I think some day and the day is comming that gasoline cars will be limited or no more. I see no reason why we cant figure out a way to get more production out of these batteries and electic vehicles.. Right now where in the baby phases.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
When gasoline becomes scarce, electric cars will get very popular. Why would gas become scarce? Wars have a way of doing that as resources will be diverted to the military. Will there be wars? Yes, the most practical way to solve the current worldwide financial crisis. Sort of a reset back to zero for all involved. Too bad my limit for cars is "under $40k". Tesla has my vote.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Heh. That's pretty fascinating. Funny thing about that Kia (?) - given how often they seem to fail in regular service, the gas struts for the hatch seemed to be doing their job right until the end. It's amazing how it can shred those engine blocks.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
"The Gov't , Oil companies and the Elite will do everything in there powers to limited/ delay or stop this new concept."
To what possible benefit? The government wants to go "green", the oil companies still sell natural gas that powers all the plants that feed Teslas, and the Elite like expensive new toys. As for oil, huge amounts of that goes overseas anyway--if Americans won't buy it, the Asians sure will. I think this conspiracy isn't logical.
In honor of Tesla, I started the Mustang for the first time, since I put it away over 5 months ago.
Hmm, I'm wondering if MrShift is trying to short Tesla's stock like Ackman is shorting Herbalife?
MrShift@Edmunds said:
4:11PM
"The Gov't , Oil companies and the Elite will do everything in there powers to limited/ delay or stop this new concept."
To what possible benefit:
Less gas consumption in the U.S. = less profit to the above. Our so called gov't say alot of things. They want to go green.. lets have Al Gore fix global warming while were at it.. Presidents are just puppet heads to the Elite... The elite's cash cow is.... Oil.
The rich are getting richer , The middle class is disappearing in this country. The gov't loves to hand out all this Entitlement money to the poor. why??? keeps them dependit on gov't and takes there eyes and distracts them of what is really going on in this country.
The Elite may never let the electric car succeed.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Cont
Let's step back and look at the big picture. Up until now, there has been no serious threat to the world domination of the oil industry and the internal combustion engine. It's a system we have been forced to use because of the simple fact that there has been, until now, no other choice. Enter a brilliant young entrepreneur - who also happens to be a rocket scientist - who creates a compelling and sexy electric car that goes on to win every award under the sun.
There is so much excitement around the Tesla Model S that it is not uncommon for me to come out of the grocery store in North Carolina and find people in the parking lot taking photos of my car. Earlier this year, Tesla made headlines when the Model S became the first car in history to win Motor Trend Car of the Year by unanimous vote. Then Consumer Reports called it the best car they ever tested and gave it a score of 99/100. In May, Tesla wired nearly $500 million to the government and became the only American car company to fully pay back their government loan. Oh, and by the way, they did it nine years early, with interest - $25 million in interest, in fact, back to the taxpayers. Ouch, I bet that goes down like a jagged little pill in the boardrooms of certain other car manufacturers.
Tesla is rocking the boat. What started as a ripple has now become a wave and the boat they are rocking is so enormous in its domination, some may have thought it to be unsinkable. They are rocking it in a way that is making people uncomfortable, especially the people who are heavily invested in it.
So now ask yourself these questions: What happens when a start up car company is outselling their competitors without placing a single ad? What happens when the public has so much confidence in a company that the stock is up more than 300% this year, and was up over 400% before the media went nuts with these headlines about the three fires? What happens when two of the most powerful industries in the world - oil and the established car industry - feel threatened for the first time?
In this country, the gigantic, powerful entity we call Big Oil made $51.5 billion in the second quarter of 2013. $51.5 billion in three months. Think about that number and then consider the internal combustion engine based car industry sold over 14 million cars in the USA last year. These two giants have been in bed with each other for a century: "You drill for the oil, and we'll make the cars. Together, we'll make a fortune. Even if the people hate us, they will have to use our products because they will have no other choice."
And now a little start up company named Tesla has come along and threatened all of that. We didn't expect these antiquated allies to go down without a fight. It's on.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
@brian125
After those long posts, I can only assume you a 'long' on Tesla.
According to the vehicles listed at the bottom of your posts, you don't own a Tesla or anything remotely fuel efficient.
The issue is not just efficiency, but a COMBINATION that creates the best suitable product - personal transportation. Just like with many other products, the winning is not one that has a some single aspect of superiority to others - rather it is a product that may be inferior in many respects (or sometimes in all respects taken separately) to its competition, but in combination it may be superior to them. Electric engines may be clean, high in torque, efficient and what not, but in combination, until recently they had a fatal flaw of low portability of source and expensive storage. They simply did not offer same ability of a consumer to just hop in, drive across hundreds of miles, stope wherever, refuel wherever. So perhaps energy stored in gasoline is not more efficient in terms of BTUs or other "objective measurements" of power to price, but it is "efficient enough" and "inexpensive enough" at the same time it is more portable, cheaper to store (tank vs. battery pack) and most importantly easier to replenish in a timely manner. If (or when) Tesla et al figures those things out, then electric vehicles may be taking over the world. Not just yet...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
This is very easy to draw a conspiracy theory about evil forces that are intent to stop progress and those supercheap and superefficient products that are just ready on the shelf and if only...
NONSENSE!
There are equally powerful and equally ruthless forces that would just love to stick it to Big Oil, if they only could. Coal miners, utilities - woulnd't they love to put out something running on product they make (memo: most electricity is made by coal)? Add nuclear energy industru. Howe about all that "green grievance" complex? Wouldn't they just love to stick it to Big Oil? Then steel/aluminum and other raw material people, I'm sure they don't care if they sell sheetmetal for the gas powered car or electricm they just want to sell more of their stuff. Add GE and all other industrials - they would not be able to hold themselves, if they could sell gazilion electric car components, if those were only good enough for the consumer.
So why that is that Big Oil is so powerful that puts cabash on all "save the world" inventions (to the point we don't even know about them), yet Big Coal is so powerless? Would these guys LOOOOVE to stick it to those Exxon guys? It makes no sense.
Yes, it is always easy to blame it on boogie man. Our brain is wired to look for those conspiracies, because that's they only "logical" way we can explain why something that soooo great on paper doesn't really work.
BTW, I don't mean to say that conspiracies don't exist. They clearly do, but IMHO dominance of internal combustion engine is not a result of one.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Great synopsis GG...enjoyed reading it.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
>
The fact that the Tesla is really a computer on wheels makes it very new. That large screen GPS/media centre and downloading updates via satellite. Not to mention the car can be diagnosed via satellite as well. That is very different than any past electric or gas powered car..
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I thought those engine blocks would clog up the grinder for sure....but it just gobbled them up.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I am not so sure about a conspiracy, but I am certain the oil/gasoline companies are not thrilled with the prospect of electric cars taking over. I doubt if any current car manufacturer wants to lose sales to electric car makers. The government, well, there could be a lot of people out of work if we aren't repairing cars, or selling gas everywhere. Even a battery change station can be unmanned. Political parties probably get lots of contributions from oil and gas as well as the automobile industry....this could change things dramatically.
Think of the way computers have changed the look of offices. Remember floors and floors of employees with adding machines or with typewriters, or who shuffled papers such as invoices. Those people disappeared because one simple computer can do the work hundreds of employees used to do. Think of the changes when we start driving a computer.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Here is something else to think about with EV's. and what Driver100 touched on..
Think about the way cars are actually built - none of them actually make all of the components, there is a whole eco system of suppliers making everything from bolts to piston rings. An EV has a dramatic effect on this. Think about the parts which are no longer required and the specialist manufacturers for each.
An EV doesn't need;
Pistons, rings, conrods, oil pumps, fuel pumps, mufflers, catalytic converters, valves, valve springs, fuel injectors or injection computers, differentials, gearboxes or automatic transmissions, exhaust pipes, engine blocks (although they need the casings), air flow meters, knock sensors, flywheels, clutches, shift linkages, vacuum reservoirs or traditional brake boosters, fan/drive belts, spark plugs,a multitude of different gaskets,high tensile bolts for things like the heads rods or crank (which are also redundant). Universal joints other than in driveshafts, fuel and oil tanks, fuel and oil lines, fuel level sensors, cam chains or belts, air, fuel and fuel filters, spark plug leads, distributors, a multitude of hall effect sensors, intake/exhaust manifolds, starter motors,alternators, coils, camshafts, pushrods, hydraulic lifters, gudgeon pins, turbo chargers, welsh plugs, bell housings, most of the bearings, plus a whole heap of machining, drilling and casting work.
The flow on is more dramatic than you think and lots of the smaller suppliers will become redundant or have to switch to making something else. Just consider the complexity in manufacturing a modern engine and compare that to the simplicity of the electric motor - (ignoring power electronics etc). The guys at borg-warner who build transmissions would not be happy to see their new 7 speed automatics with all of that R&D become pointless. How about Bosche who make the EFI systems and Alternators?
An EV is a big threat to more than just the oil companies and they have a vested interest in delaying things until they are in a position to move - which many will hope will be never.
An EV also annoys lots of people who want to keep the motorist consuming - the distribution companies for the oil, the service centres, your independent mechanic, the list goes on.
Just some more thoughts that come to mind.. lol
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
I don't think so. There is nothing in a Tesla that you can't find somewhere else in a commercial product. The media centre is just downloading data--your computer and Kindle do that all day long.
Tesla is evolutionary, not revolutionary. Even if they attacked the franchise system, that has been done before (Musk might want to read up on that). I suppose that's a "revolt", but not a new one.
But ANYWAY--I'm 100% behind Tesla trying to sell cars directly if that's what they want to do. I don't think it'll work but I have no problem with them giving it another shot. All he has to do is defeat 45 state franchise boards in court and then deal with the massive army of lawyers the NADA is gathering at the moment in DC.
Sad but true. My foray into individual stocks had mixed results. All those I selected doubled or tripled. Those recommended by brokers all tanked. After 7 years I barely broke even. When I dumped the stocks in 2007 I got skewered by the brokerage for selling fees.
Now I pick my own mutual funds and have done pretty well. Tomorrow could be another story.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
You always feel much better when you pick your own stocks and mutual funds and they do bad. Not a broker or professional..
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
And therein lies a real challenge...attorneys and public representatives that have long been friendly with NADA. Classic politics. He might find success in pursuing an anti-competitive lawsuit, or more likely, going straight to the voters and creating referendums that do away with the laws. Politicians will be worthless, of course, nothing new there, but the vast majority of the public would love to see dealers squirm and lose their power. Get a vote in front of them and NADA will crumble.
Pistons, rings, conrods, oil pumps, fuel pumps, mufflers, catalytic converters,.......
That's a great list Brian...I thought you were going to forget about filters but you even got that one.
One more thing, on top of fewer parts, EV should last a lot longer too. Not too many moving parts.
I think there are a lot of people who would prefer the EV would just go away. E-Books (my area of expertise) has changed the world of publishing in ways not imagined 10 years ago. The number of independent and used bookstores has diminished greatly - think of them as car dealerships. The big major publishing houses - think of them as car manufacturers - controlled
the whole publishing process, they owned the authors and the whole process of distributing books. Now there are people who self publish and sell a million books online, and then the publishers come to them. You could also find comparisons to renting DVD at Blockbuster, because Netflicks, Video on Demand, downloading movies has changed the whole industry. How about CDs, now we plug in our USB or put music on the harddrive, or bluetooth. These are huge changes that have a domino affect. EVs could revolutionize the car business, it's more than just a new way to power a car.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Hey, why are they grinding up that little green car? I didn't see a bit of rust on it. I've driven much worse than that.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
"not just yet"
Exactly! Besides, how can you get that V8 growl from an electric car?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Not all is lost, Oldfarmer. The Model S produces its own noise under hard throttle, a sweet sounding whine similar to a turbine. You don't hear it for long considering how fast the thing gets up to speed, and there's no revving it at a light.
So cute..
Toddler in toy car gets ticketed by cop. Have some fun and caption the photo. Here’s mine: “Sorry officer but my electric car just ran out of juice.” http://www.today.com/moms/photo-toddler-toy-convertible-getting-ticket-cops-goes-viral-2D79379811
That's cute.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Interesting posts brian. If electrics become more popular it should also drive down the price of gasoline because of lower demand...and/or compel ICE manufacturers to make their vehicles more affordable and get better mpg. We should all be rooting for Tesla. Competition is king in the U.S. At least it used to be.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Whatever happens in the future of transportation, batteries, electric, hydrogen of fusion, I would be very surprised if the big oil corporations don't find a way to get their share of whatever profit is generated. They will find the winning energy providers and simply buy them. They won't destroy them but embrace the technology and make it pay.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I've been mulling over that same thought, houdini1. Supply and demand are definitely big factors and will impact the final pump price. But there are some non-market influencers at work, too. Taxation being the largest one, followed by federal MPG requirements.
Europe is more heavily influenced by fuel taxation than the US, but if our own government continues to attack carbon emitters like they have been the coal industry, I would not be surprised to see major penalties for gas and diesel vehicles in the future once alternative energy is more common and affordable.
Rapidly rising MPG requirements will probably make the argument mute, anyway. There's only so much you can do with a gallon of gas or diesel. Eventually the required average will be so high that manufacturers will have no choice but to sell the majority of their vehicles as either electric, hybrid, or some other alternative fuel (LPG, hydrogen, whatever).
Actually when cars first came out there were a number of different power sources, gasoline, ethanol, electric and steam. Gasoline won out simple because it was plentiful and easy to get and refine. Those days are pretty much over.
I am not so sure that the auto industry is to threatened, after all an EV while electric is still a car. May auto manufacturers are toying with electricity for powering cars in one way or another. Either through pure EV's or hybrids.
As for oil companies, EV's take very little if any profit from them at this point in time. I seriously doubt that EV's will make up a significant percentage of all cars on the road for some time. But let's say that everyone had an EV tomorrow Big Oil will still be making a profit. We will never see an electric commercial airliner, Tesla wont be getting a Pentagon contract to build fighters, ships and trains will still need oil for the foreseeable future not to mention all the other products made with oil.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Truth be told most modern cars are rolling computers. There is more computing power on a modern car than was on the Apollo spacecraft that went to the moon. And if I am not mistaken things like OnStar can diagnose your car remotely too.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well Teslas still have to have routine maintence (IIRC Tesla states every so many miles, I cannot recall how many, or once a year), brakes will still need to be replaced and there will likely be other things to be repaired or replace periodically. Also look at it this way, in the past you would have to have serious work don on your engine in the first 50-60K miles, now you can do 150K miles or more with little more than oil changes, brake jobs and tune ups. So a lot of people are already out of work doing repairs.
You don't work in an office do you? My office there are floors of employees with adding machines and computer terminals who shuffle paperwork. The real only difference is typewriters were replaced with computers. And the number of people who were eliminated due to computers were replaced by the IT staff.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The cops always pick on BMWs!
It's the attitude that some drivers have. It used to be pretty obvious with RAM pickup truck drivers showed in their driving. It's as though they feel they should be aggressive like the commercials showed. Or maybe the commercials just attracted more of the aggressive pickup buyers to the line. I recall having one pass me within our city limits in a middle lane only for turning in a 35 mph zone. I dialed dispatch and suggested they have a car lookout for the driver of the white RAM if one of the 3 cars was in the western zone. I told her he had one of those trucks for guys with too much testosterone--it was all jacked up on supersized nubby tread tires and lots of other doodads on it. Nice truck if I were into those things.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yep and the automobile killed off the buggie whip manufactures.
There will be a whole eco system of suppliers to support the production of EV's. Someone has to make the magnets, commutator, brushes, axles and armatures for the motors. Some companies will adapt and others will fall to the wayside and others still will be created to supply everything that EV builders will build. Also remember that there will still be a market for most of the things you listed, it may be smaller but it will exist for some time to come.
If we stop progress simple because some skill or profession would disappear we all would be having this conversation in our bear skins around a campfire in our caves.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nope attorneys and public representatives have long been friendly with money. It's just that NADA has more and is willing to part with it. You can bet the ranch that if Tesla went to Jersey and started giving more money to the politicians than NADA they would be able to sell cars in NJ directly.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You could always make an app that will play several engine "growls" on your smart phone and connect that to your cars speakers and "rev" it up at stop lights and when you take off.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't want to sound negative but that's exactly the reason why dealers are reluctant to be emailing quotes and best prices over the internet. Either the price gets shopped anyways, or, the buyer isn't serious yet, and hasn't stepped foot in a dealership to even see the car in person they're seeking quotes on.
I just don't see the point of haggling, asking for quotes, or negotiating, before even being sure that it is the vehicle one wants to buy. This should be the very last step in the car buying, process, not the first.
It's like emailing realtors asking for best prices on listed houses before checking it out in person.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I was thinking of an old office like this one. All of these guys can probably be replaced by one desktop computer.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think the name RAM pick-ups must give the impression of aggressiveness. I thought it was a good name for a line of trucks....kind of gives the impression of being tough etc. But, my wife doesn't like the name at all, I think she thinks it is sexist. I wonder if any womaen go to a Dodge dealer and say they want a RAM truck? At least the name F-150 doesn't polarize people.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Here's another old office in case there is something wrong with the first. Oh yeh, notice how people used to dress for a desk job;
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Yeah but that "primitive" office is the kind that built the Golden Gate Bridge. Let's not fail to give credit to our ancestors.
As for lower demand for gasoline lowering prices, I don't think so, since fuel is America's largest export product. So if we won't pay top dollar for it, Asia will---happily.
Not making fun. I actually worked in an office like that in 1967. I worked in the advertising office at Firestone. I had to staple the invoices together and then file them. In my short time there, one summer, and that convinced me to go back to school, I did learn how to brainstorm. They were looking for a name for a contest for their dealers...winner went to Mexico. I came up with Siesta-Fiesta or some stupid thing, and they used it.
Totally agree Mr S. How come you are keeping us on car topics, we're not used to staying on a topic for this long.??????? Doesn't someone want to discuss bug spray or deoderants?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The only real difference between that office and todays offices are 1.) walls between the desks, 2.) far fewer suits and 3.) more women.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And in the second picture at least, an ashtray on every desk!
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6