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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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Again, members can make use of Smart Shopper - Suggest a topic of discussion if they would like to start up some kind of salespeople advice or questions type Forum.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Many times when I discussed dealer invoice pricing (usually with fleet managers), they explain how/why their invoice price includes an "advertising fee" on top of the published KBB invoice cost. Sometimes they would tell me this upfront, but other times not. However, I always did my homework. Sometimes I asked them (before purchasing) why their price was higher than I expected. Hey, I appreciate, but I do not expect, salesmen to be completely upfront with everything. It's their job to sell, not to educate.
I agree with you that your salesman was in the wrong if he told you the side airbags were "standard" equipment on all models. However, I am surprised to the extent he is willing to make things right -- trading vehicles with you without charging any additional fees -- a few days after you drove one home! I honestly think they are making a generous offer. There will be plenty of work involved from their end, not to mention the idea of taking a car that was sold (and likely driven) for a few days and attempting to sell it again. If you already paid the $598 fee without questioning it at the time of your purchase, I see no reason to be angry with applying it on the trade?
I am just another customer. I never worked in or around anything automotive. When I am ready to buy a car, I guarantee you that I know more about the vehicle I am purchasing than any of the sales folks there. When I bought my 2007 Element I had the full factory manual read from cover to cover BEFORE I bought the car. By the time I hit the lot nobody had to 'sell' me on the car or any of its features. And I had a pretty good idea, what the pain threshold was on the price. (~$21,000 for a 2007 4WD auto EX, + tax&lic. (Feb.2007) (MSRP $23,705)) Once I had a good understanding and all relevant research completed it was time to hunt for the best value. Again, straight up, I wanted to buy the vehicle at a local dealer where I had done business before, but the numbers were not working out well. I said, "Thank you for your efforts." and walked off. --all in good manner and without wasting anyone's time. Three weeks later and some more research I returned with new information, and had inked an agreeable deal within minutes. I had been on lots where the sales peoples were acting like bullies, -- not my bag, I just walked off and never returned. As a customer YOU have to do your homework FIRST, then NOBODY can hose you, unless you ask for it. This side airbag thing and compromising an auto for a stick over it is pretty dense on your part!!!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
(walks off into the desert with ears hangin'...) :-I
ok sane people know rlatham's response was appropos.
now, can we please get back to the "show me the invoice" portion of the program?
just kidding.
We agree again. This has to stop. :sick:
On a couple of occasions I almost jumped into the discussion but when I really thought about it, I reasoned that nobody could be this "inept" but this poster continues trying to convince us they are.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Probably prep charge or freight charge...you're not very specific on this one...if you don't think it's legal talk to a lawyer...keep in mind they're a large organization who has lots of lawyers working for them...if it weren't legal they wouldn't do it. (keep in mind ethics and laws are two different things)
Edmund's price does include freight/destination already. However, some states, like FL, allow dealers charge stratospheric add-on fees for virtually nothing. If they want to they can structure their deals as $1 price and $19998 "dealer fee". Also - Mazda often raises prices midyear by a few hundred dollars, or explanation of advertising fees may be the one. Many brands make dealers pay association fees for regional ads, which is added to the invoice by the distributor. Subaru recently changed that by increasing invoice, but many other brands are treating ad fees separately.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Who are you including in that little comment?
I've never heard of an advertising charge, and that huge dealer fee is a joke. Still, you agreed to this.
If that salesperson represented the car as having side airbags than it should. In my opinion, you should be able to return the car and pay the difference.
But, that is just MY opinion. If you walk in there with an attitude or threaten to trash them on the survey, you might not like what happens.
Good luck.
-Moo
Well, she's got a couple of weeks before she has to tunr it in. She decided to go look at what's out there. I told her to come here and make a list if what she might be interested in.
We started with Nissan Altimas (nice redesign but local dealer isn't one I trust, and is prone to playing the ADM game). Next up was the Mecury Milan (again, nice car, but it didn't float her boat). Camry, of course (Toyota has her demographic nailed with the Camry). Mazda 6 (again, nice...but the dealership experience didn't do much for her). Hyundai Sonata (very nice car, very nice salesperson but wouldn't commit to a price unless she was ready to buy TODAY).
Finally, we sauntered into the local Honda dealership. I know the family that owns the local Toyota and Honda dealership. Made a quick phone call to Ms Dealership Principal. Her secretary told me she was travelling in Europe and unavailable. Looks like we're going to the store "blind".
Got there and was immediately approached by a sales person. Jean told him she was interested in an Accord. She also told him what other cars she was looking at. He steered her toward a long line of Accords. She found one in the color she liked, but it was a demo EX-L, automatic, with nearly 5K miles on it. I told her not to worry about the miles if we could get a nice discount. Off we go for a test drive.
It was apparent that the brake rotors were warped on the car. The brake pedal vibrated with light braking and they put out a sick sound when applied. I mentioned this to the salesperson. He immediatel dismissed the complaint as something that's "normal" (Uh...huh). The salesperson said that it looked like it needed gas. I looked at the guage....it looked full to me. He knows more about the car than I do, so we go along with him to get gas. When we got to the gas station, he could squeeze less than $2 of gas in it before the "shutoff". I mentioned to him that I thought the tank was already full. He insited it wasn't and didn'twant to run out of fuel during the test drive. Try as he might, he couldn't squeeze much more gas in the tank. He reluctantly said he misread the gas guage (do you know your product?...was my first reaction).
Except for the brakes, the test drive went well. Jean likes the car better than the rest we'd driven.
It just so happens that this dealership is relatively close to a state mental institution. Occasionally (once or twice a month) they'd get an escapee who would decide to come take a look at their cars. When they got their drivers liscense information they'd call the hospital, give them the name, and if they were a patient, the hospital would come pick them up.
One day, there was a lady there acting like the normal patients...so they called, and sure enough, she was an supposed to be inside. While they were waiting for her to be picked up, another person, with identical mannerisms showed up.
Their behavior, according to the co-worker, was so similar, there is no way this guy is supposed to be here.
So they called and gave the name.
The lady on the other end of the phone line said to my co-worker "Oh, Dr. Johnson SAID he was going to stop by and look at a car today...take good care of him!"
That you went on a test drive ?
Or is it that the salesman wasn't clear on the gas gauge ?
Or is it that the car may (according to you) need some brake work ?
Really hilarious!!!!!
That salesguy couldn't tell by looking at the gas guage that the tank was full???
The reason the Hyundai salesperson wouldn't commit to a price was because he didn't have a committted customer. Giving her a number to go shop wouldn't have been smart.
The proverbial closing questions began from the salesperson....
"Are you buying today?"
Jean-"Maybe"
We explain about her lease being up in a couple of weeks. Salesperson insists that it's not a problem to go ahead and turn in her leasded car early.
Jean is loving the Accord. So, I tell her if she wants it, let's get down to the nitty gritty. She turns to the sales person and tells him I'm negotiating for her. Clearly, he isn't liking this arrangement, but we start the dance.
Luckily, I have a phone that's internet capable. I do a quick look up at Edmunds on what this car invoices for and incentives. Purchase nets a $750 Honda allowance. Lease doesn't get the allowance, but there are lease incentives.
I figure it's a 4 cyl, EX-L, automatic. Invoice is $23,291. Remember, this car has ~5K demo miles on it. At 10 cents/mile for the demo miles, I'm figuring $500 under invoice wouldn't be bad. I'm also figuring 20 cents/mile for 5K demo miles is $1,000 under invoice. That's what I offer for the lease amount.
Salesman now turns us over to the SM. He comes up and introduces himself. As I stand to shake his hand, he says rather bluntly, "I know all about you". Huh? We go over how he's seen me in the store before and ackowledges he knows of my friendship with the dealer principal. He adds to that "....but, she's not here to help you....". This isn't starting off well.
I respond..."OK...but, we came here because of my friendship. How do you want to proceed?". SM states the price of the car (which the lease will be based on) is ~$1,000 OVER invoice. I return and tell him that that price won't get it done. I explain my reasoning....demo miles, brakes need to be fixed, etc. He claims that I should be adding back the holdback I'm figuring into the equation. OK...here we go, he wants to ADD the holdback to the price.
He sees Jean wants the car badly. We thank him for his time, but I also state that we're too far apart to do any business. I get up to shake his hand and thank him for his time. He declines my handshake and states, "...don't come in here throwing around names and expect that to help you with me".
Now, I vaguely remember this guy. But, I certainly don't recall us ever doing a deal together. I have used my relationship with the dealership principal as a negotiating tool, but it's always been agreed up front what I was doing...and always on a friendly basis.
Salesman follows us out to Jean's RAV4 and asks what happened. I told him we just couldn't make a deal, and we drive off.
Guess that Honda dealer is now crossed off our list. And, a letter will be sent to the dealership principal (whenever she gets back from Europe) informing her of our experience.
Looks like we're in shopping every local dealership trying to cut a deal.
Isn't that what this forum is about?
I don't mind any salesperson not quoting a price. Once we settle on a car, that's when we get to the price negotiation. Hyundai salesperson knew he didn't have a committed buyer, yet.
I don't have any issues with that.
They still depreciate horribly making a year old one a pretty good buy. In addition, the rental companies are using these now and when they dump them after a year it drops values even more.
For what it's worth...
***these dumb orange pop up boxes are REALLY a pain!***
moparbad, "Forums Software! Your Questions Answered..." #3563, 26 Mar 2007 5:15 pm
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Midsize market is highly competitive, which means the winner will have a right combination of quality, features and price. I don't mean a hundred dollars, but say $1000-$1500 may make or break a deal in terms of its value, cause the same car at 20K may be a steal, but at $21.5K may be not so great. Everything has its value, including quality. One may be ready to accept less-than-spotless car if the price difference is compelling enough. Comparing stickers does not do the trick, as final pricing structure in relationship to MSRP varies really widely for different brands.
So, now tell me - how in the world can I commit to a car, if I don't know its real price? Somebody got to give. For me you have a choice: give me a good approximation (don't need a penny but something like take $1000 or whatever of the sticker" would do) or be crossed of the list.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
A lot of people will ask what our "best price" is, write that number down and shop it all over.
It's up to you to make a COMMITTED offer.
Two stories come to mind.
The first internet shopper I ever had came in with a lap top. He was also the first person I ever had bring a computer, and spread sheets to buy a car. His Spread sheets were comparing a Mustang, a Camaro, and whatever Pontiac was making at the time in that style car. He picked one out and started the sales process by trashing the Mustang against the competition. I simply asked him "Sir do you see a Chevy or Pontiac sign any where on this lot? If you don't like the Mustang then fine, it was a pleasure meeting you."
So we over come that and it is offer time. He says he paid $19.99 to get a copy of all the dealer cost on a Mustang and if I accept his offer he will buy today.
He makes an offer and I almost laugh in his face. Not because it was so low but because it was so HIGH!!! My first thought is, this internet thing is great.
So anyhow I give him the standard, "Well sir I don't know if we can do this or not let me check." By the time I get to the desk I am laughing my [non-permissible content removed] off because this guy paid money for this info and he thinks that he knows every thing and has us just where we want him.
Any way I go out bump him another couple hundred and he hooks up.
Now we soon found out that the internet in its earl stages was also a bad thing. For every guy that came in like that 10 came in that had invoices that were $2K-$4K low. they were always fun to deal with.
For the most part now days most of the services are always within $500 one way or another
Please, be serious. It's baloney and you know it, I know it and everybody else does. There may be some models when it's true (Fit in your case), but please - midsize sedan?
As I said - don't even need your "best offer" -just something real to make a a real comparison. Are you so really so insecure about your product or price that you can't tell your price?
However, if you insist, you just made your choice. Have a nice day. Perhaps I stop by in two weeks with an Accord (or whatever I choose) bought somewhere else.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Oh, I know. You want me to give you a hard number to go shop all over. Later, I'll find out I lost you over 100.00.
It's no wonder a lot of stores will lowball customers.
As the Internet Manager, I DO give hard numbers but I'm the exception. I have to really pick my words carefully when I do this and try to win the customer over.
And, actually, I'm pretty good at this.
Why do Car Guys like a firm commitment before they negotiate, because the odds are 80-20 that as soon as you get a price you are heading down the street and shopping the price.
Is that a bad thing? Only for one guy, and that is the first guy. The one that spent a couple hours with you riding, driving, demo'ing, showing you different colors and options. letting you see if the red one drives better then the green one, etc, etc. He has a vested interest in you. He is a commissioned sales person who does not make a nickel until you cross the line.
In most cases the first guy never wins, its the last guy who you pulled up to and said, "I want a 2007 green SEL model with floor shift, and roof. No heated seats and no Nav. And if you have one can you beat $20K OTD. If so I will take it, its late in the day and I am tired of shopping"
So its the last guy who gets paid on all of the first guys work.
I know allot of you don't care about that and as I learned in another thread the sales people to allot of you mean nothing as long as you can save $50. But that is the reason a sales person wants a firm commitment.
I usually ask for one by saying
"Sir/Mam if we can come to an agreement on this car that meets your financial budget are you prepared to take delivery of it now?" If the answer is no then I ball park a payment or price, only problem with that is my Ballpark is Yankee Stadium and the Consumers Ballpark is the Tee ball field down th street
that is very kind of you! I'll tell you what, when our website is up and running, i will post it in my carspace area (i don't think there is any rule against that) and let you all know to check it out there. Our website should be up soon - the women who started this outfit are working with their lawyer and webguy to make sure everything is copyrighted, and protected before putting it up on the world wide web!
-thene
I can't wait!!
Well, you're right - when I come to BUY your car I will. Today I just want to see your product so I can make a comparison with others. I know, I know - your Honda is the best in the world, worth every penny, never breaks down, practically does not lose value (as a matter of fact, I heard of five people who sold their fiver year old Accords for more than they paid), etc. But you know me - I like to still see if that guy in Hyundai has something perhaps not so great, but letting me keep couple of grand more. Or maybe the guy at BMW has his leatherette seat 328 for 10 grand more, but on sale and I really love that propeller on the hood.
For now I don't know - all I need now is a reference point for pricing. You say MSRP - perhaps in your case it may be legit, as Honda usually has a clear and simple pricing structure. So I leave you alone for now. But that guy at Hyundai with 3 grand cash back and 2 grand dealer incentive? It really makes a difference if his Sonata is $21K or $17K and it would be his best interest to let me know how much it really is.
I see you really despise anyone who just dares to question (or even examine) value of your product or pricing of it. You clinch into idea of people going for $100 and then ridicule anybody who just dares to think it's worth to shop around. How about $500? $750? $1000? Were is the magic point of reconsidering value of your exceptional customer service? I guess you'd like to live in a merchants paradise, where people buy anything for any price. It's not going to happen.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
For what it's worth, if my purchase follows a process similar to the one you described, and my first salesman was a decent guy/girl who didn't frustrate me, I always try to show loyalty to the first salesman. For example, I won't choose someone else in order to save less than $200 on the deal, and I will always give the first salesman an opportunity to match the competition's price.
Some buyers need to convince themselves that yes the price that they are about to pay is what cars are going for at that time.
The sales people are poking fun at the buyers but they have forgotten that they are in a superior knowledge position as far as what a car could be sold for.
Having said that, I am sure that there is a section of the population that will shop 10 dealers and waste everyones time to save $20.
Good point, but is where I think the confusion lies between consumer and sales person. It is my contention that in todays super information world that you should know what a good deal is before you ever get here.
We work off the assumption that everybody knows what invoice is and everybody has 3 different opinions on there trade. From that point it is are job to negotiate the best deal off of all that information. If they don't have that info then they are at fault not me and they will probably pay more.
And please before someone screams thats not fair we beat that horse to death last week.
Then there are customers like me who don't like to make major decisions before I think about it for awhile. If I come in today to test drive I will then go home to think about the experience and to figure what a good offer would be. When I come back the next day it will be to buy. If I were to ask for a price at test drive and were refused or told "its on the sticker", I would assume you didn't want to sell me the car. Only then would I go elsewhere.
I know salesmen may think that customers are all grinders and liars but some just have a different way of doing things.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Apparantly you just enjoy conflict or something.
I think it's a mistake to discount them because they are a Korean brand. Hyundai is really just another good competitor in an already competitive car choice landscape.
Depreciation, as you state, is still bad. But, for someone who buys a car and then drives the wheels off of them, Hyundais are a good choice. In short, they're now good cars.
Bottom line, we all buy what we like.
In Jean's case, she liked the Sonata. She liked the Accord better, though. Considering her purchasing experience so far, it's probably a toss up between the two. I'm confident the Sonata is going to be less expensive for her. We all know that a car purchase is an emotional experience.
The Honda store experience wasn't a good one. So, that detracts a bit from the emotional aspect. As I told my friend, if the Accord is really what she wants, even though it costs more, and the buying experience hasn't been good, there's plenty of other places to buy it from.
Right now, we're $1,000 over invoice on one that's a demo. That's not a good deal. We'll find one she likes, at a store she likes, at a price that's good.
If we can't, she'd probably be happy with the Sonata, too.
I've got no dog in this hunt. I'll do the best I can for her, but in the end, it's her decision.
I didn't say that Hyundais were bad cars. They are vastly improved over their earlier offerings and the same can be said for Honda for that matter. I don't happen to care for them myself. I would buy a domestic over a Korean make, but that's me.
My point was, great buys can be made on slightly used ones because of the depreciation. Even if a person does plan to keep it a long time, they will save THOUSANDS.
They were forced into that warranty because of the problems associated with the earlier models. It isn't as good as it would seem. Most of the items that do break don't fall under the 100,000 mile part. Still, I 'll bet it does sell some cars for them.
Too bad about the experience at that Honda store. A store is only as good as it's worst employee.
The price is on the windshield, that will give you an idea of where to start from. If there are any special deals going on, then the salesperson could let you know of those options, such as rebates or financing. Unfortunately, most of the time that people ask for pricing, they want your BEST price. Why bother? Look it up online or better yet, figure out what you want first and then start your shopping.
That's why I always ask people when they are looking to purchase. When I hear that they are 3 months out, I laugh inside and tell them to come talk to me at that point. The car business is so liquid, there is no point in sharing numbers until the month that you are interested in purchasing in.
Again, it's all in the presentation. Want a ballpark figure? Go online, that's what it's there for.
-Moo
When we bought our new Accord in March 2005, we offered $500 under invoice and they accepted. We didn't even pay any dealer processing fee.
I was very surprised they accepted our offer. Some guy in the Prices Paid forum claimed he got one for that price at a dealer near us, so we figured we would give it a try.
"Right now, we're $1,000 over invoice on one that's a demo."
The way you were treated leads me to believe they decided they weren't going to sale the car to you, unless they were able to make a killing. You said the manager made a comment that he knew all about you, and wouldn't shake your hand.
It is my opinion that this was a personal matter (for what ever reason), and they weren't going to let that car be sold to YOU (I know it was really going to be bought by your friend, but you were the negotiator) at a reasonable price. I would also bet another person could walk in there, and buy that vehicle for much less than you were being offered it for.
And what exactly does "invoice" mean anymore ? It used to mean that it was the price that the dealership paid for the car. Now we have all of the other dealer cash and volume incentives that won't show up on an invoice.
I maintain that a few lowball offers just may get you a price well under invoice. As stated earlier since the buyer is in an inferior information position the game must be played as these new rules dictate.
The word 'invoice' is simply a price that is assigned to a car. That price is posted here on Edmunds and on many other web sites.
When people refer to 'invoice', we all know exactly what price they are referring to because we can easily access it on the internet.
I have no idea how the 'invoice' price corresponds to the amount a dealer pays for the car, nor do I care.
it's often this min/max "game" that is just plain repulsive to the public. as a consumer, you can do your research, be well informed, provide a decent non-insulting offer, totally intent on doing a deal and be treated completely inappropriately. and that's when you're pre-calibrated brining good money to the dealership...
ok - let's say you haven't done your research, don't know the special art of negotiation, don't know what the going price is for the product. as a consumer, are you taken advantage of, or are you taken care of?
to that poster who dealt on a vehicle with side-airbags only to find out the vehicle didn't have them, i imagine a self-respecting salesperson and dealership is gonna work with you on it to your satisfaction.
i'm sure you salespeople have all sorts of stories of where you did the right thing by someone. perhaps they are not as interesting though as working up a deal for someone just "escaped" from an insane asylum.
Were there rebates or dealer incentives in place at the time?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
why do so many people care what other money the dealer is getting? if you think the car is a good value for the price, then you'll buy. some people want to make sure the dealer makes no money. i just don't understand this, no matter how many times people will say "this is the business model dealers set up" or "consumers need to know all this to level the playing field"
level it to what? there's the invoice. you know what you want to spend. make the offer, buy the car if they meet it. done. who cars WHAT the dealer gets after the sale? i can't understand how its anyone elses business?!
sorry to rant - its just been a stressful yucky day in my cube...
-thene :sick:
I use obvious (I hope) exaggerations, just for the sake of argument - do not mean to hurt anybody's feelings, or anything like that.
I do get a little ticked off whenever salespeople make such a big deal of their pricing citing people shopping for $50, cause I do not believe it represents most of us, customers. Most of "normal" people would gladly stop in their first dealer (as they often do when they shop for anything else) if they were convinced they're not being taken for a ride - and I don't mean lowest of the lowest prices. SEARS or Best Buy are often not the cheapest - just inexpensive enough.
But how can one make sure, other than hours of research? Comparison shopping. But that spurs catch 22 - you won't give me my best price cause you think I'll shop you, but I'll not sign anything yet cause I have a strong suspicion it's not your best price (or even close to that). And the circle is closed...
I'm one of those who do shop around for many things - I admit that. I am price oriented, but in context of value, which means I'm willing to pay for something if it represents something to me. I rarely buy cheapest product at cheapest place - but the price must be low enough. I will not let go $20 on $50 item, or $100 or $1000 item, or $500 on $20K, cause - why should I? Unless I suspect that the low offer is not real or the place offering it is not exactly honest with me (which usually means the offer is not real).
When I say "I'll be back or call you", I do just that. If I hear your business is the best in Town and the other's guy price is close, you'll likely hear from me very soon. If I made my research and it came to X, you offer X+$200, I know you're the best, I'll probably sign papers. If your number is X+$500, I will likely shop for longer, but if found out I was wrong - I'll sign your papers.
You'd make my life easier though, if telling me that it's $20K you meant just that, not $20K less thousand, just because I'm so great. I know the life is not about being easy, but why not at least try?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
He didn't want to sell me (her) a car.
There's plenty of other better stocked ponds to fish in (using a "moo-ism").
That dealership had a "leg up" on the others because of my friendship. They lost that in pretty short order.