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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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Becuase it represents a potential of leaving more money in their walets. It's not personal, it's not about telling dealers how to do business. It's about finding out the lowest point at which the dealer will let go the product.
It works both ways - you do not need to accept a ridiculous offer from a customer who thinks they should be "paid" for their grace of taking a car off your lot, but the customer does not need to buy that Wondermobile for $3K over sticker either.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
but i don't sell anymore, however, i still remember what it was like to sit on the other side of the desk. most consumers do not, and they don't really understand what it is like. thats why i am always saying that people are to self centered to even walk in someone else's shoes anymore...they'd learn a lot about the process if they did...
its all only my opinion however, and everyone will do as they choose regardless of what i say...
-thene
I can't tell you how many times I have laid my cards on the table only to find out later I lost a sale for a piddley amount of money. Yes, it happens and it happens a WHOLE lot more than you think it does. I wouldn't have believed it either.
It's not the money for these people. It's the nagging fear that someone else just might have paid less for the same car. A mentality I will never understand.
" Life is too short to be small"
The problem with your logic is it assumes that you know how much it costs a car dealer to 1. Keep that car in their inventory (interest to the bank, etc.), and 2. Keep the dealership up and running. You have no way of knowing how much profit the dealer needs to make on that car to make the deal worthwhile, so why pretend the number is meaningful to you at all?
If the car is a good value for the money, buy it.
At the end of the day, as a consumer this is your ONLY concern.
It of course sounds more gore that it really is. Most of us are actually more reasonable and do not need to beat the other side uncounsious to feel good. Most would accept dealer's profit as a fact of life and customer's desire to pay less as well. With decent competition and laws in place the amount of abuse from dealers is and will be be limited. With decent and appealing product, the profits will also be good. It's only the extremes that attract attention and even fair minded people focus on them, just to protect themselves.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Some dealers go to extremes and so do some shoppers.
Did we ever. Why did you bring it up again?
Now watch and see what you have done. Some posters will probably come back here to beat the other side of that poor horse. :sick:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
These people usually aren't much fun to deal with either.
It depends...are you happy? Let's say I sold you a car at full list. If you're happy with the car and with the deal you got than I'd argue no...I didn't take advantage of you. If I lose $1000 to sell you a car, and you aren't happy and feel like I took advantage, did I? Unfortunately it's a sliding scale. There's no black or white to this issue... so let's stop trying to make something that's all sorts of shades of gray black and white.
i dont know, maybe its just me, and i feel this way because i have been on the other side - maybe im just in the minority - but i don't feel the need to haggle tooth and nail to make sure i get the best price ever on a car.
as usual...
-thene
THANK YOU!!!
None, other than if the X is a good price, X-$500 is a better price. Moreover, I can flip your thinking that to if the dealer is able/willing to accept certain price, say invoice minus $300 and his/her establishment can live and grow on that, why would he try to get more? Answer is for the same reason the customer is trying to get his/her product for less.
Remember - it's not customers who chose to conduct the business this way - it's the dealers (if it was customers, people would be haggling in supermarketsm, Dillards or Best Buys). They believe it will benefit them more overall and perhaps the're right. As the price to pay is having to deal with people who want to give you nothing.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
first off i want to say i appreciate how you handle yourself here, and you are very courteous when arguing your side!
i can agree to the fact that consumers want to save money, who doesnt? however, people can negotiate the way they do on cars because they know the cost (or very close to the cost) for the dealer. you don't know that at the grocery store, best buy, etc.
like other people have said - the reason why people are so intent on trying to get the absolute lowest price and then some, is because they have this irrational fear of someone else (particularly a neighbor or friend) paying less for the same car than they did.
oh well - i don't see any of it changing anytime soon - people are still to dead set in their ways (both dealers AND consumers!)
-thene
I've had many customers argue (grind) for another penny per gallon. many of them come out with, "what's a penny to you?" I reply that a penny to them amounts to $8.00 year based on their usage of 800 gallons. A penny to me amounts to $100,000 based on 10M gallons. That penny could cost me: a) my job; b) a couple of employees; and/or c) at least one of my delivery trucks. Some get it, some don't.
Another way I put it is to compare the lowest price (cheapest) product to an all-u-can-eat buffet place that has gone out of business. People scratch their head and wonder why they went out of business. "They always had a large crowd and plenty of good food." I tell them that they were eaten out of business by their loyal customers.
A business must price appropriately to attract business while sustaining the business. Failure to do so leads to business failure, lost jobs, etc... If a customer demands that I lose money to gain/retain their business, I'm happy to point them to my competitor. I'd much rather see them go out of business.
I think there is generally too much of "entitlement" mentality amongst both customers and dealers. Customers think if the dealer does not want to share their love towards their trade or does not want to pass the dealer's incentive, or put "too low", they are "crooks". One the other hands, salespeople think they deserve full sticker for a turd of a product (with 3 grand customer cash and 2 grand dealer incentive), they happen to be stuck with, even if market clearly rejected it. Just because they need to feed their kids. Or if the customer thinks their trade is worth 3 grand more than their lowball offer, he must be an idiot. Not right, either.
I always said it's a two way street. I don't bring my kids, salesperson should not bring theirs. If the car is trully hot and you just "have to have it" - pay through your nose. If the car is not so popular, but I happen to be willing to take it - don't complain I took your holdback, if that was what it took to move it. Cause that's market in its best/worst. Can't have one without another.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Don't really want a Mustang, but love the stereo.
mako1a,
3 years ago, my then-girlfriend (and now wife) went out with her parents (now my in-laws) and bought a Mustang without ever looking in the trunk. They had no idea what a "Shaker 1000" was. Needless to say when I saw the car after they had bought it, and popped the trunk for them, they were dumbfounded.
I still have all those amplifiers and the subs sitting in the garage. If you end up buying a Mustang that doesn't have the 1000 (or if you just want the system) I'll sell them to you really cheap... it's like brand new, we haven't ever used it, and I don't think we'll ever be putting it back in unless we sell the car...
The tone I get from this thread is that although I plan to spend about $50,000 on a car, I am going to be considered an annoyance by the sales people. Several sales people will spend quite a bit of time with me helping me see what I want, and then trying to get to a fair price. Most will be disappointed. How can I best handle this situation?
Go during the week at around 1:30, and you should be fine. as long as you are honest up front, you shouldn't have an issue
good luck! i love the infiniti M - wish i could afford one
-thene
They usually know that nobody is going to drop 50 grand on their first visit without checking the competition. They also know that you can buy only one car, not one of each, so it's a competition out there for YOUR money. Their job is convince you they have the best car at the price you just will be most happy to accept. If it ever occurs to them you are annoyance they don't deserve YOUR time, not the other way around.
5-year old Accord? Probably not as usual, so there may be some "icemelting" and "qualifying" to be done. Just be respectful back, as you understand why someone will be curious how you are going to buy it. Promotion? Inheritance? Perhaps plain savings? Be truthful with that and you'll see. There may be some jerk in a BMSlugenzxus store, just move on - next one will be better.
I don't have that kind of money, but I asked once for a test drive of a new Audi A4, telling the guy upfront it's not "for today or even tomorrow". I still was treated with upmost respect and the drive was better than just four block around. Now imagine someone who is actually buying in next couple of weeks
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Decide what kind of car you want and then discuss price with the person who sells that car.
With a little help from internet, you'll be able to assess value without a price talk whatsoever. Focus on the product first, research the prices outside the showroom. Once you decide what is your next car, then you can go in detail negotiations.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If you hired me as a sales manager, I would strive to make you as much profit as possible. I would also try not to lose business or take dumb deals.
It is a balance.
My question is how to handle myself and the competition?
Tell me when you shop for furniture do you buy from the first place you go to or do you shop around? Most people when buying a big ticket item tend to do some comparative shopping, and yes the higher priced shops more often than not lose out. Its called economics. So I have to wonder why some people are reluctant to give out the information needed to do that comparison shopping.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Future sales? There are times when I just go looking and the salesman makes an impression on me and I have kept their card. Now if I decide to by their make I will look them up or if I come across someone who is looking to buy that make I tell them about that salesman.
There is more than one salesman who after hearing me say I am just looking took the time to just talk about the car (or cars in general) that have gotten a sale because of it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's interesting. I am mostly concerned about buying a car that meets our needs. I guess I have been doing something wrong.
Is it a 2003 model? There are plenty of 2007 models that are one year old by now (have been on the road a year or close to it), and I think there are 2008 models out now (Ford Escape comes to mind). Either way you slice it, a 2003 model car is five years old (and if a well-known dealer who used to post here still posted here, he'd try to convince you a 2003 model was six years old). I'm not trying to argue with you, just pointing out that different people have different methods of calculating the age of a car.
Congratulations on your splurge (or whatever you want to call it) on a luxury car--from what you've posted, it sounds like you've earned it.
These are the questions I ask myself each time (I don't do it often, but try to do it well) I go out to buy (I don't lease) a new car. Research pays -- it'll give you a clue as to what the market is (high-demand stuff sells much closer to sticker).
Then go through the drill -- invoice cost for the vehicle & the options you want, advertising fees, doc charges and (dare I mention it) holdback. If the car's been on the lot 10 days or you're ordering it, holdback is in play, in my world. If it's been sitting there for months, not so much.
Decide FOR YOURSELF what the car is worth. Put together a little card or spreadsheet that shows how you got there. Invoice + shipping + profit (0.5 - 3%, depending on demand) + a $25 doc fee - mfg incentives + sales tax + license fee (look it up) = What I Will Pay, OTD.
If the first dealership you present this to takes it, you've got a car & may want to tweak your numbers next time. If they don't, go to the next dealership. Either way, you've spent about five minutes. Most states have a choice of dealers for any given make, and I'm willing to fly cross-country & drive it home next time, if need be (European delivery).
I've bought three cars this way in 15 - 45 minutes (two on my lunch hour). I'm sure I've left some money on the table, but my time is worth something. I'm willing to live with the fact that I didn't get the best deal on the planet Earth.
Oh, by the way, I ALWAYS sell my old car privately & pay cash.
I'm having a little trouble with the concept of an '09 being 3 years old already!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
LoL! That's a beauty!
However, by current reckoning, R&D times were greater back then - maybe 9 or 10 years - so it's firmly in the centenarian league at 107 years. :shades:
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Snakeweasel, in a perfect world this would be worth talking about. For the last time, these sorts of situations are rare at best. You may give my card to someone you know, but what are the odds of them coming to me after that. I've seen this sort of situation so many times. It just isn't statistically something that happens much at all.
On both sides, everything is in your presentation. In four years of sales, I haven't seen ONE person buy from me that was referred to me from someone who operated in this fashion. Not one. Any other sales guys care to chime in? Prove me wrong. Make me look like the worst salesman ever. Bottom line is, 4 years and zero people showing up from those lost sales. Hrm.
There is more than one salesman who after hearing me say I am just looking took the time to just talk about the car (or cars in general) that have gotten a sale because of it.
You know that for a fact do ya?
Dino even said it. Just pick out the vehicle you want to purchase and then work on the price. With all the information available, there is no reason to waste each others' time with all this 'best price' malarky.
-Moo
The chances of that situation turing into a deal are slim to none.
I did have one customer who didn't buy a car from me (because we didn't have it and another dealer did), but he brought his folks in a week later and they bought a Civic from me.
But that happenned once in my three years of selling. That's one deal out of 300, meaning 0.3%.
Hardly worth the time or effort unless it's a dead slow day at work.
The reality is that the customer will chuck your business car away after a week, and forget you after a month. If his friends/relatives are in the market, he might tell them to see your dealership ("I ran into a good saleguy there, but don't remember his name"), and the chance that they'll go there is even slimmer. If they do go there, chances of them asking for you or seeking you out will be even more slimmer. They'll be looking at all types of cars, so even then your dealer (not you) might have a 1 in 5 chance of even seeing them. Even if they decide on your particular brand, they will mostly shop 5 other dealers for price, or might see another competing, same brand dealer because of price, bad experience, convenience, inventory etc.
So realistically the chances are once again slim to none of you ever getting a referral deale out of someone that you might have made an impression on who knows where, and god knows when.
I'll stick to the people in the market thank you. But I'll have a friendly five minute chat with you if it's not busy.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
so when do you give out a business card? have you had people talk to you, tell you they were looking, and return in a month to search you out?
or, what is the circumstances under which people come into the dealership, looking specifically for you?
I recently switched carrers after a long time in business to business negotiations. I started out as a regular salesperson. I'm now being offered the Internet manager position. I have the tech expertise and the smooze factor and I already know the customers are savy and the cyber tire kickers are abundant. What I would like to know is what I should be going after money wise. Besides doing the web for the 3 GM brand store, I'll still be expected to take ups. Right now I get a salary and a percentage on the front and back. My question is, what more should I be going after? Obviously my gross is going to go down dealing with web customers and not all leads that come in ask for the internet manager which, results in lost sales for me and new ones for others. Any solid advice out there?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
To be honest I would think that the salesmen in these situations would say the same thing. They most likely didn't remember me and would think that the referral came from another sale.
When I was in sales I always worked on the assumption that the person I was spending time with now could turn into a sale in the future. I was always excelling in my field.
You know that for a fact do ya?
Well when I have the name of the salesman and give it to the person who is thinking of buying the car and they return to me and state that the met the salesman and bought their car from them then I know it for a fact.
Just pick out the vehicle you want to purchase and then work on the price. With all the information available, there is no reason to waste each others' time with all this 'best price' malarky.
And this has nothing to do with what I said. Anyway I will always ask for the "best price", if you don't ask you don't get.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
but i've been out of the biz for a couple years now...so im not an expert anymore :P
best of luck to you!
-thene
I was thinking a salary, a monetary amount for leads who actually come through the door, a flat $ amount for sales and any other salesman who sell an internet lead would earn me a 100. bird dog.
Really, there's no difference in how I research/prepare to buy in that price range, than how I research/prepare to buy in the "mainstream" price range.
In general....
-there's usually fewer dealers of the highline models than there are with mainstream models. The only thing that means is there's less competition for the higher end models. That could, and does, affect price.
-you won[t be able to cut "skinny deals" on higher end models as you will for mainstream models. Of course, there are rare exceptions to this.
Before I bought my BMW, I looked at Audi A6s. At the time, it was the end of the model year. Audi had some manufacturer cash. They actually advertised locally that all of their A6s were $9K off MSRP. I am now seeing offers in the newspaper for the local Porsche dealership offering $10K off some of their models. I'm seeing pretty nice discounts on the Infiniti G series. Those just came out this year. So, discounts can be had....some of them hefty.
But, without those "deals" on end of year models, you're going to find that, at least the European iron, the amount you're going to pay over invoice is going to be higher than it will be for, say...an Accord, Camry, or domestics.
Just do your homework. FInd something you want. And, aside from Starbucks, doughnuts and bottled water in the showroom, the process of negotiating, and buying from a high line dealership really is no different than buying a more mainstream car.
Does it come equipped with wheel locks and floor mats?
98 years old? are those all highway miles? Maybe I should get the extended warranty?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
And I thought I kept my cars a long time.
It would have been nice if even one of my relatives from that era had kept just one of those cars, then they could have passed it on to me.
Sooo, I don't know where I got my car knowledge. :surprise:
Don't nobody jump up and say I got it here at Edmunds, cause I was an expert when I got here.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I don't forget. If a customer comes in and says "Mr. Snakeweasel" referred me to you, I would ask how I know them. They in turn would tell me that I helped you out previously and didn't end up purchasing a vehicle, but he was very impressed with you. Haven't seen it. Ever. I don't need to remember you specifically. I just need to hear that the referrer didn't buy, but sent someone over to me.
You, of all people, should be interested in statistics. This is a numbers game. You talk to as many people as you can and spend as little time with people who aren't buying any time soon, because your time is money.
You'll very often see green peas spending an inordinate amount of time with people who are obviously tirekickers. Why? Because they think like you do. They think that being nice is the way to sell cars. Then they end up with a 5 car month and start to realize they need to change some things.
Personally, I never like to spend too much time with a customer who's tire kicking, no matter how busy or slow we are. I'm thinking I might be missing the next phone up or the next fresh up that pulls onto our lot because I'm entertaining some fella who is purchasing sometime soon, but hasn't narrowed down what he's looking at.
It's just time management. That's all it is. You must have it to be successful. That and a sixth sense about who's buying.
When I was in sales I always worked on the assumption that the person I was spending time with now could turn into a sale in the future. I was always excelling in my field.
I would like to think so as well. But I manage my time as well. Based on your unyielding attitude and know it all demeanor displayed in this forum, I can only assume that you "excelled" at a minimum rate. These qualities are just not suited for a salesperson who must adapt to each customer. I think a CPA is just perfect for you.
(To be fair, this forum might not be how your personality is in real life. I'm only going off of what you're giving me.)
-Moo
~R
Selling cars is one of the most physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausting jobs anyone could have. I have been in my position for about 3 years now, and for the most part (except what you read about on this post) it has been a rather enjoyable experience.
Every now and again, a customer will come in who isn't quite sure which vehicle they're interested in. For the most part, this isn't a problem, you show them a couple cars and by the end of the day they've made up their mind. Once a year or so, I'll get someone who is totally and utterly clueless about what they're looking for in their next vehicle. Much like the lady who I was helping out. And usually...much like this lady, they're in a psychactric profession.
Fortunately, of all the salespeople she talked to, I did not get it that bad, but what I did get was bad enough. Before coming to see me, this particular lady drove about a dozen cars at a competing dealership (same brand), and then drove every single one of the cars on the lot at a local branch for a national used-car super-center for one of the three brands I sell. When she stopped by to see me, she thought she had narrowed it down to one vehicle. After driving them, she mentioned that it just didn't feel quite right, so she wanted to drive something else.
That vehicle didn't feel right either.
Now...when I say "that vehicle didn't feel right" I must put into perspective. This lady had the hardest time vocalizing her thoughts of anyone I'd ever met. It usually took about a half hour of hand gestures, and describing phrases every time she tried to get a thought put to words...so I had to play detective and figure out what she was saying.
Picture it- "I like the seats with the thing that ch-ch-ch-ch [puts her hand out in front and acts like she's holding something and slides it back and forth with every "ch"]-"
"the power seat?"
"Yes the...power seat...what was the other thing I liked about this car? the thing on the windshield that-"
"The auto-dimming rear-view mirror"
"Yes...say that again??"
"the AU-TO-DIM-MING-REAR-VIEW-MIR-ROR"
"Ohh...auto dimming mirror...what does that do again?"
"it's the thing on the windshield that lets you see behind you"
"Ohh...and it's au-to dim-ming...that's nice...the one in my current car doesn't do that so if someone's behind me you have to [ducks]"
That's how every conversation about every car went. To appropriately act out her part, you must speak at 1/4 the speed of normal conversation.
In her first visit, she drove three cars, and was here well in excess of four hours. The second visit, was a 6 test drive visit, and lasted nearly 10 hours. By the end of the day the poor woman was nearly in tears because she couldn't decide which one she wanted. By this point, they had all started running together...and she was very, very frusterated.
Not only was she frusterated, but I was as well. As a sales consultant, I typically work every single one of my customers in the speed they prefer, and in the way they prefer. At around 4:00 PM on the second day, my brain grew very exhausted. So exhausted, that I felt very much like I was on some very powerful pain killers...and I wasn't actually. By this point, I was no longer accompanying her on the drives, I just tossed her the keys, and gave her my liscense plate, and discussed the car with her when she returned.
Finally, I thought I had found a car for her. I sent her out to drive it, and when she came back she mentioned, without a doubt, this was the correct car. We got all the paperwork ready, and when it was her turn to get in to do her paperwork, she got cold feet. All of a sudden she had to leave to go get something and she would be back in just an hour.
I assumed she was not coming back...so I came back to my office, sat at my desk and just stared at my monitor. I don't know if anyone reading this has ever smoked pot, however, the only way I can describe how my head felt, is how it feels after doing that. My head was buzzing...I couldn't think, I couldn't move. All I could do was just sit here staring blankly into the computer monitor.
Two thoughts crossed my mind. Either A) she will come back and want a different car or
All in all, the story has a happy ending. She made it back, did the paperwork on the car...and is now driving around happily in her new little vehicle. I don't know how, but for some reason, any time I see her again, I just have a feeling I'm going to go into Post Traumatic Stress Disorder convulsions...we'll see if it happens when she stops by to pick up her tags in a couple weeks :-).