Stories from the Sales Frontlines

dino001

Well, all but BMW backed off their "free" maintenance, first to back off being Mercedes. The best you can do now is to purchase prepaid programs at reasonable prices (Audi) or otherwise.

british_rover

That is the msot frustrating thing. Land Rover has pre-paid maintenance just like BMW with the exeption of brakes which BMW covers and Land Rover does not.

Oil change every 7,500 miles and major service every 15,000 miles till the end of the warranty. She was just too busy(lazy) to bring the truck in for service.

madmanmoo

Some dealers just want the sale more than others.

Or, maybe they just have more in the car than what you are offering. I'm pretty sure every dealership would like to sell a vehicle. If it makes good business sense, then they will pull the trigger.

This isn't personal, it's just business and mathematics.

I had some moldy cheese yesterday. A previous employee of ours (porter) wanted to purchase a new Murano. We put him on the money and he thinks we can do better. I ask him where he wants to be on a monthly payment. He tells me $450 but max of $500. We are sitting on a balance of $35k.

.......

Sir, are you putting $10k down? No. Well, that's what it's going to take to get your payments under $500. What interest rate are you using? With all due respect, it doesn't matter. We're $10k apart.

It's just mathematics, folks. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it isn't personal. We didn't do a deal for him. Not because we didn't want to sell a vehicle, but because it just didn't make sense from a business perspective.

-Moo

joel0622

I sell allot of the pre-paid maintanence. If you are serious about maintaining your car its a great thing. Plus it saves you $$

dino001

For 10 grand apart, nobody reasonable would say "you did not want sale". For $500 or $1000 - it may be just that. The other guy may be "hungrier" than you and will accept less markup, or even a loss - who am I to refuse it Same applies to the other side - you find a laydown or an enthusiast willing to pay full sticker and buy your $150 whell locks - good for you...

dino001

If your price is good, I take it. My experience though is that the price is usually not so great.

joel0622

We sell 3/36 5K interval all scheduled Maintanence to include 15K and 30K Service for $550 + tax. As long as you are under a maintanence plan the 6 normal wear items are covered also.

1. Brake Pads and Linings

2. Engine Belts and Hoses

3. Spark Plugs

4. Clutch Disc

5. Shock Absorbers

6. Wiper Blades

We usually bundle the package with a 6 yr 75K Premium Care Plan, the two together usually run between $1495 and $1695 depending on the vehicle line and as long as it is not a Diesel.

The only pre-req is the car has to be within its 12/12

dino001

Well, I would not call shocks, clutch, or hoses a normal wear for 3/36K period. They should last twice as long at least. Many spark plugs are now 100K, 60K minimum. Who decides when to change a belt - is a wear enough or does it need to break? Same with wiper blades. My Subaru is 60K now and still about 50% brake pads. So all that $550 really covers is oil changes, 30K fluids and low risk premature wear. It's pretty much break even or less if considered 5% interest during 3 years is about $75. Unless your reveared Ford uses some substandard components that wear so quickly

Now - Premium Care bundle may or may not be a value depending on the decuctible. Plus, when one really needs wear items (around 60K), it doesn't cover it - does it?

lrguy44

But there comes a point where it does not make sense to do a deal even if you are $150-$200 apart. We all (on both sides) have a bottom line. What I hate is when a client asks for my best price. After I cut my deal and give them best price they want more. My best price means just that

dino001

Agree - but the thinking may easily be reversed. That's why you have people shopping 20 dealers for another $100. Makes not much sense to me, but people do it all the time. On dealer's part it can be justified by their livelihood. On customers - it is about finding the real "resistance" line of the market.

lrguy44

Anyone who shops 20 dealers for $100 certainly doesn't value their time. :sick: :mad: :P

joel0622

Thats the way you look at it. The way I look at it is that at 35K miles regardless I am going to have a break pad and lining concern which will get me new brake pads under warranty, I am also going to get new windshield wiper blades every 10K or so, the brake job and the 30K alone are more then $550.

Its like this, if they were not a good deal I would not have a 100K service contract and a 55K maintanence contract on my wifes car.

joel0622

My owner saw a guy on the showroom one time years ago and came in the sales office. He asked us are any of you blankety blanks strong enough to close that guy. he has been here 10 times. Actually the guy had been here more then that but every time you agreed to his terms he would leave, he thought that if we agreed to his price then we must be ripping him off. Boss man said go out there and tell the SOB that we are canceling are offer and if wants the car it will cost him another $500, and that we need to know right now because if not we are transferring the car to another store.

So I did as I was told and the guy got mad and said he wouldn't pay it. After we got done negotiating the guy ended up paying $150 more then we had agreed to sell him a car for 10 times before.

That was the day I learned the sales lesson that a customer never knows how bad he wants something till you take it away. Great lesson that day.

The guy hooked up and proceeded to bring a pillow and lay down in F&I.

jmonroe

If it makes good business sense, then they will pull the trigger.

Exactly. I do my research and when I go to buy I know my price is doable. In a way I have accepted the way the car biz is run. It's just that I don't bite on the sales pitches. The reason I know my prices are doable is because I never up my offer yet rather than let me walk, my price is finally accepted.

You're right it's just business but like I've said before; I don't want to be the one to buy you and your family steak dinners for the rest of the month. I prefer to let that be done by the "whale" who walks into your store after I leave.

jmonroe

cotmc

"We took a X5 in recently. When the SM appraised the car, it ran fine. Several days later the high bidder came to pick it up and it would not go into reverse. New tranny required."

What are the options for the dealer if the customer completely lies about the condition of his trade-in, and further diagnosis confirms this? To me, the two obvious answers are either 1) eat the cost of the repairs or 2) take the customer to court. I'm just wondering if there are any other options -- other than sending cousin Guido to the customer's home! :P

Has anyone ever seen a dealer take the customer to court?

cotmc

She was just too busy(lazy) to bring the truck in for service.

In this circumstance, I think "lazy" applies more than "busy". One service every 7500 miles requires minimal effort, unless she lives two hours away. Don't you guys provide loaner vehicles, anyway?

Whatever she just purchased from your store -- make sure you absolutely do not take that vehicle in as a trade!

lrguy44

We have a disclosure form that the customer swears he has disclosed damage, etc. honestly. Since the state came up with the form, it will hold up in court. The question always will be, did he know the tranny was about to go out. The form also covers salvage titles, flood damage, clean Carfax, etc.

oldfarmer50

The last 50 or so posts leave me with 2 questions:

1). If, as the sales folks say, price guides are inaccurate, why is this? Doesn't Mr. Kelly want to stay in business? I was told "those price guides don't keep up with current values. 5 year old Chryslers have been going UP in value lately". Now I can either assume that the salesman is lying or KBB is wrong. Either way I would be reluctant to use the book as the basis for my next offer.

2). When a car is leased don't you require some proof that the client has done basic maintaince? That is, if a car comes back without the oil being changed and the engine blows up doesn't the customer bear some of the cost? Don't you require records? I would be very leery of buying a lease return otherwise.

BTW, the only time an engine ever blew out on me was a former lease car.

geffen

What if the person that leases the car changes the oil on it themselves? How would that be tracked? I always go back to my dealer of purchase for maint. work and keep all my receipts for future records if necessary. When I do trade my car in i'm doing my home work to make sure I get the best deal and that i'm not getting stuck with a lemon.

lrguy44

First of all, the books are just guides and regional. Kelley is not used in our area of the world and in most cases it is higher than NADA. Most dealers will actually look at Manhiem auction reports. That is what dealers have paid. Also, trade value will vary by condition and recondition required, local market, dealer needs, time of year, etc. A 2 wheel drive truck will bring more in Florida than it will in Colorado. If I have 4 2001 Sudgemobiles on the lot I will not step up like I would if I needed a Sludgemobile. Or if I lost my preverbal on the last one I had i will be gun shy. It is an art, not a mathematical science.

volvomax

There are many reasons why the Kelley guides aren't accurate, but it basically boils down to "garbage in,garbage out"

As for the retail Kelley prices, not so much of an issue.
With a used car, you've got to start somewhere on the price.
Kelley retail is as good a place as any to start.
This doesn't really matter because I can't recall the last time someone walked into the dealership, looked at the Kelley sticker on a used car and said "That price is fair, sign me up"

As for the lease returns, as long as the idiot lights and the service lights aren't on when you turn the car in, the lease co really can't do anything to you as far as how you maintained the car.
That is one of the prime reasons why the motor co's came up w/ the CPO programs.

isellhondas

That's not going to happen.the dealer will suck it up.

Funny you would mention a BMW. It's the European cars that will do expensive things to you.

I've told this story before so bear with me...

One night, years ago, I took in a NICE Mazda MPV. Now, those in the business know how soft these are. They are NOT "book" cars. Nothing really wrong with them but they never have sold well either new or used.

Anyway, these people demanded top dollar for the MPV. they gushed over hoe well maintained it had been. Never an accident, 3000 mile oil changes etc.

We caved in, paid too much and made a skinny deal.

The next morning when we went ot move it, it wouldn't go into gear! After ten minutes of ideling, the transmission engaged and it drove fine.

We drove it to the nearby Mazda dealer to have it looked at only to find out the previous owner had been there the week before. They showed us the Repair Order.

Customer states....won't go into gear when cold.

Determination...Car needs a rebuilt transmission - 4800.00!

Nice, huh?

isellhondas

Yeah, five year old Chryslers are going up in value?

Now I have to clean the coffee off my keyboard and monitor!

british_rover

Not only do we have loaner vehicles but we have valet service too. :surprise: :confuse:

They didn't buy the Disco from us and she was a college student from out of state. I am sure if her family around she wouldn't have blown the engine.

explorerx4

'i am so sorry', that is what jimmy johnson says when he knocks his teammate out of the way.
it is just a joke, really. the wording caught my attention.

explorerx4

what the dealership you worked on route 10?

madmanmoo

KBB is paid by advertising. So long as you keep searching his website, he'll stay in business. To the best of my knowledge, the prices shown on that website are not updated but every 3-4 weeks. If you would like to have us pay what KBB says your trade is worth, then be prepared to pay what KBB says OUR car is worth.

Typically, that will make everything balance out. Again, these are all guides to purchasing. Use them at your own peril.

-Moo

explorerx4

how much is a tranmission for a honda v6?

joe131

reminds me of the joke. something about how to tell if a car salesman is lying

boomchek

At my previous store the used car manager used auction values more than book values for car appraisal espcially off makes (non Hondas).

It makes sense because the auction guides were usually less than a month old and were for cars sold in our area. It also showed how many of certain cars were up for auction at that time. this determined more of a "market value" than a Black Book or Blue Book that covered the whole country.

jipster

Sounds like the "Don't ask Don't tell" policy the military has. You didn't ask... and they didn't tell. :sick:

But, you'd think knowing that the transmission was bad, the nice MPV couple would have taken the first offer. That they grinded you for top dollar is truly amazing.

joel0622

A value of car comes from the Used Car manager knowing the market in his trade area. Nothing more nothing less. All the books are guides and are great to get a sense. But so much more goes into it.

If I have no nice used Explorers in stock then I am going to be a little more motivated to trade for your truck then if I already have 8 of them on the line.

If it is November I am not real excited about your convertible, if it is March and the sun has been shining for 6 days then i am all over it.

If you don't take the time to at least pick up the French fries off the floor and wash the mud out of your wheel wells I am probably not going to believe you when you tell me you have taken great care of your car.

It is a retail business. The used cars are kind of like the stock market. Buy low, sell high. We can't give retail because we want to sell it for retail. Thats not being greedy or under handed, that is just the way it works. If you want retail sell it your self and apply the money down toward the purchase of a new one. Thats not a bad thing if you have the time.

A big thing on the value of your car is if we can still finance it. If it is high mileage or a Daewoo, or an ARO ( I don't even know what that is), most banks won't finance it at all. Allot of banks also cap the term and mileage they will finance on a Geo, Plymouth, older Kias (pre 2004), and Oldsmobiles.

When you are looking up your trade value take the personal attachment out of the picture and give a true evaluation of it. Look at the car as though you were thinking of buying it, not selling it. Read what is classified as a car in good shape and don't kid yourself. A good used car man can tell from 20 feet if your car has had paint work. If you are honest with yourself on the evaluation you will probably get close.

isellhondas

I have no idea. what does that have to do with anything?

lilengineerboy

What if the person that leases the car changes the oil on it themselves? How would that be tracked?

Eh, I would definitely say I am in the minority but I have a pretty intense Excel spreadsheet that tracks maintenance costs and timing for the cars I'm responsible for. This includes the stuff I do myself, dealer warranty and maintenance work, and any other little gismos it needs. I also keep receipts and write dates on everything.
Honestly, I don't know how much it matters. When major issues occurred the car was either in new-car smell territory or so old it was a non-issue.

thenebean

yeah, that dealership on route 10 that is now half owned by another dealer...haven't been back in a while...i wonder if the same service staff is at the nissan dealer - if they are, i'd like to bring my car back out there instead of my local dealer (i live 45 minutes away) because i know the guys...but i don't know if on the nissan side they cleaned house and hired all new folks...i should probably call...

-thene

oldfarmer50

"...then be prepared to pay us what KBB says OUR car is worth..."

In the example I used the KBB retail was $7700 and the asking price was $8995. I guess that was the Chrysler inflation factor at work. (I bet that car is worth a fortune by now)

joel0622

All of are used cars are priced at KBB retail on the sticker for a starting price. The good thing about it is it gives everyone a general ground to start negotiation from and if the customer looks the car up they will see the same thing as we have. It is also good when they look it up and compare it to our internet posted prices which is always lower.

Much better then in the old days when we would grab a number out of the air and put it on there. the general rule of thumb then was ACV +$4000 rounded up to 999. meaning if we put $8500 in a car we would price it at $12999. The profits were much better back then but there is allot less altercations now days then there were back then which I like.

dino001

Used car stickers can be funny, though. I still can't shake a '95 Escort displayed at local Tallahassee Ford store in 2000 for $9500. For comparison a year earlier I bought a '97 (you remember - that was a new model already) from the same store for $8300+some junk fees. So why was that? It was a totally dead season, five cars on the lot a few weeks before new crop of students was about to move in. Perhaps meanwhile a 19 y.o. girl (or boy) comes in w/o daddy and buy for asking price :sick:

joel0622

Kind of like when allot of us were younger and chasing the girls. "Ya never know till ya ask"

explorerx4

it means that many brands have expensive parts that are prone to failure. i thought you might know about the brand that you sell.

rworrell

BR--does your lease-end worksheet ding the lessee for this kind of negligence (the woman who never changed her oil)? From personal experience (yes, I passed!), both Saab and BMW will charge at lease-end if the pre-paid maintenance hasn't been performed and documentation made available.

dino001

Same with people asking for 5 grand off invoice of the new Focus, isn't ?

joel0622

Same with people asking for 5 grand off invoice of the new Focus, isn't

eggzaclee

user777

there's 2500 customer rebate on them now isn't there? so I would imagine you can get at least 3K of that 5K off MSRP and/or invoice.

why does Ford price their vehicles like this? it leaves the impression they are not priced appropriately and do not represent a great value.

in my opinion, a strike against the car before it even leaves the lot.

british_rover

You know I don't know. I would have to ask someone.

dino001

I suspect the size of those rebates are more acts of desperation than really planned moves.

They probably figure something like this: new model no rebates in first year then put $500-1000 in second year with sticker increases of $125, $55 and $200 over the same period, then clearance rebates of $1500+. Before they know it they have to put $500 after three months, $1000 after six and $3000 year after that - cause that "all-new hot" Focus/G6/Sebring are sitting on lots with nobody even looking at them without three grand discount as starters. Once it began there is no stopping. When they're lucky they get a first year break, when model is popular and supply is limited (Mustang, 300), but once novelty wears off and quality (or luck of thereof) report spread, the discounts have to come in.

lilengineerboy

I think if you take more extreme examples, it gets better...it seems like some companies try to keep something hot long enough to recover NRE for engineering and manufacturing and the like. Then they start discounting the heck out of the thing.
Other companies take on pretty substantial redesigns every few years to keep things fresh, adding to NRE but keeping the prices higher.

user777

agree with you guys. what is NRE though? national retail estimate?

dino001

Sometimes initial "hits" turn into total flops. Crossfire comes in mind. Came too expensive to build (they made it in Germany). I read somewhere they actually had to pay off the manufacturer to stop production, cause they alloted much more than the demand turned to be, but discounting was not viable as it would have ruined them even faster. That is a very sad story if you think about it.

au1994

in my world its non recurring engineering cost.