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Comments
1. They are good cars not indestructible or trouble free like some would like you to believe. If this was true the longest warranty thread on the board would not be on Hondas. But never the less they are good cars.
2. The media gives them a free pass on all troubles
3. The manufacture plays very highly on there dependability
4. The biggest reason, Honda owners for the most part will not admit if they got a POS because they have talked about the cars being so good for so long that they don't want to be wrong.
I think that for the most part from a quality stand point there is not that big of a gap between competitors any more. I don't believe the Camry or the Accord is any better of a car then a Fusion is.
Where there is still a gap is consumer confidence, that gap will continue to shrink as time goes on. We have already talked about initial quality and that is the first step towards long term confidence.
Not a jab or down talking my competitors, that is just a observation on my point. Which I am sure will now be torn to shreds by the import faithful here at Edmunds
Actually, no. I believe the XC90 has real wood inlays. I haven't seen the redesigned MDX, but this year's XC90 has a much classier interior than the previous generation MDX, imo. (Oh, yeah, that MDX did have plood.)
Honda has a 5 year, 60,000 mile powertrin warranty. They cold probably bump that to 100K with minimal exposure but what do I know?
What I do know is the fact that I see a LOT of used cars in all makes and models. I see ten year old Hondas with interiors that aren't split and sagged. These 150,000 mile cars still run great and they are still tight.
This isn't to say that other cars don't hold up pretty well too. Hondas just seem to age very slowly compared to most.
Typical Honda buyer is middle upper class, college educated, home owner, above median income scale. That is also the demographics of the folks who tend to take better care of there cars from a maintanence stand point.
Try and FIND any 1980s honda or toyota thats lived its entire life here. Won't find too many except in the scrap yard!
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
How much margin a manufacturer has with what it cost them to produce one unit, and what they sell it to their dealerships for, is the big question. Anyone know the answer, other than it depends? With 1k, 3k, and 5k rebates and incentives on many makes, I'm guessing it's substantial. You scatter about 12 storage hubs across the country, I'm guessing a $400 flight to pick up ones car and drive it home would not be out of the realm of possibility. Or, you could have it drop shipped to your front porch if that is what you desire. Saving around $2k-3k over a comparable competitors car would be necessary to make this work.
There would be no negotiation, one price for everybody. You got a trade in, that could be worked out at the nearest dealerships service/sales center. You want a test drive or have questions... also at the service/sales center.
The dealerships would still be available for service and used car sales. Since new car sales is not the huge profit maker used sales and service is, then the loss of new car sales would not be a death blow for the dealerships. If this model could gain a substantial piece of market share, then overall profitability would increase.
But, I suppose if there was a way to make a buck off this method, one of the nonunion manufacturers would already have done so. Maybe, someday and up and coming company? Or, a manufacturer on the ropes with nothing to lose.
I've heard you say this before and since I'm a great believer in this also, it must be true.
Honda has a 5 year, 60,000 mile powertrin warranty.
Like I said don't down play the 100K mile power train warranty. 100K vs. 60K is a 67% increase. How often do you get a 67% increase on any thing for the same price let alone a lesser price? I think this is a very hard point to argue once you have the facts don't you?
They cold probably bump that to 100K with minimal exposure but what do I know?
I'd say you know what they know. Why increase your warranty until you lose enough sales but then you have to back it up or you will really take a hit. I'm not saying Honda can't but why do it unless you have to.
These 150,000 mile cars still run great and they are still tight.
To me 150K miles is a ton of miles. I'll never have a car, nor have I ever had a car with this kind of mileage. I just don't drive that much so I can't say what my "throw away" would look like with mileage like that. However, we have a well known poster here that has an Elantra that probably has close to that. Maybe he'll jump in and let you know what his looks like.
This isn't to say that other cars don't hold up pretty well too. Hondas just seem to age very slowly compared to most.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. :P
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Ok I will. After about 142K miles and 7 Chicago winters and it looks pretty good for its age. No rust on the car, a few blemishes but thats to be expected. It has a few dings and scratches, normal for parking in crowded lots. On the whole it has held up very well and I would say not many cars with its experience would look much better.
The interior looks very clean, no tears or worn through areas. The carpet has held up very well and the seats look almost new. The cargo area in the back looks very worn but it has been very well used. At least one load of firewood each year, lots of landscaping supplies etc., seems I am always using it to carry something in the cargo area.
On the whole it has aged very well.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
To me, a 100,000 powertrain warranty isn't that big of a deal. Few modern cars can't do 100,000 miles and more. Hyundai was forced into offering that warranty because of their initial reputation. I'm sure they are better now.
Even so, would you rather drive a trouble free car or sit in some service department exercising your warranty?
You can believe whatever you wish. It makes no difference ro me!
More than anything I want a trouble free car but it's nice to have that Ace in the hole for another 40K miles.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Soooo ‘jip’, I’m leaving you in charge while I’m gone. When I return, I expect to find this ship upright and floating without the bilge pumps running or as they use to say when I was in the Navy, “CONSIDER YOURSELF ON REPORT”.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Some 5 year old or even older Hyundais are in great condition, looks and function. Some are pretty much trashed. But it's hard to find a 5 year old Lexus that has been thrashed and trashed; most are in very good close to showroom condition.
People who have more spendable income tend to keep their cars nicer.
So?
Just because a car has a longer warranty doesn't mean that its a more trouble prone. Mine made it to 120K miles before anything needed to be done, my wifes is close to that with no issues, my daughters is just under 100K with no issues.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Oh, "I am going to buy a Ford, I think I'll drive up to Detroit in my old jalopy and take a test drive". Of course I live in Florida!!! Forget it, this subject has been hashed out before. You need dealerships...PERIOD....end of discussion.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Oh the car can, but the transmission is another story. Many posts about Ody's and the new Camry's having problems with their transmissions, well under 100,000 miles. I bet the owners of these cars wished they had the Hyundai 100,000 miles powertrain warranty.
Car buying can be as simple or as difficult as someone wants to make it.
-Moo
I suspect if independent stores were cut completely and only manufacturer's stores were only available, the shopping experience may be somewhat like Saturn or Carmax - perhaps more "pleaserable" in terms of less "would you buy today?" crap, but I prices may be either just razor thin lower or perhaps even higher. Hard to say exaclty - could it depends how well they are run and how much pricing freedom would their HQ give them, but I would not hold my breath.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Looks like our fellow Edmunds members are in for a treat, I too will be going on vacation to Florida this week...Panama City Beach. jmonroe, if I see you strutting the beach in your "Tidester's Fan Club" t-shirt, I'll be sure to say hi. :shades:
Sorry to say everyone, but I guess this means snakeweasel is in charge now. Good luck!
"...I read an article somewhere; I can’t remember the source where they showed the Hyundai Veracruz without badges to a focus group. Something like 70% indicated purchase interest. When Hyundai badges were put on the vehicle, the interest dropped 20%. Conversely, Toyota got 20% uplift from the brand. That’s a whopping 40% swing between the brands. Hyundai should think about a separate brand and dealer network for the new Genesis and possibly a higher end Veracruz...."
I guess that is reputation and stigma in action, eh?
The more you learn, the less personal you take it. Unfortunately some people never learn, nor they are willing to, so they remain angry and clueless. There is nothing you can do about those.
This fellow seems to be in the world of "it is the law the dealer sells to me at price they lose money - and they actually have to name that price, not me". You tried - he may cool down and learn. If not, well - move on to the next customer.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The XC90 has been out since 2003 and the MDX has been out since 2001. Of course the MDX would be redesigned first. A six to seven year product life cycle with a refresh in the middle is standard for that type of vehicle. Volvo has launched a new S80 this year along with new powerplants in the XC90. A new V70 and XC70 is coming next year along with the all new C30. I would guess the next gen XC90, probably using the new platform from the V70, will be launched sometime within the next 18-24 months.
The Q7 might be a new SUV but it uses the old platform from the Cayenne and Toureg. Not sure which version it uses as the Toureg version is a much cheaper platform then the Cayenne version.
At any rate, he falls into the 5% of people who you just can't get through too. Odds are, most of the mistakes were on his side. I've seen numerous people confuse the crap out of themselves by blasting e-mails to every dealership in a 5 state area. They talk with too many people and can't keep any information straight.
Just use our scroll feature with folks like that. They do make some decent entertainment, but I've found that I just get my posts deleted when responding to them. :P
I think you did great considering the subject.
-Moo
Problems get overblown in forums such as this. If those were a domestic brand nobody would have thought there was a problem.
In Honda's case, they stepped up and covered the repairs up to 100,000 miles so I guess that warranty wouldn't have been needed anyway.
Ford seeks buyout of all Indianapolis dealerships. (Ford Motor Co.)
From: Automotive News Date: May 12, 1997 Author: Connelly, Mary; Sawyers, Arlena More results for: Ford seeks buyout of all Indianapolis dealerships.
Companies mentioned: Ford Motor Co.
Show more >><< Show fewer links
Ford Motor Co. is planning to acquire all Ford and Lincoln-Mercury automobile dealerships in Indianapolis and replace them with about five megastores. The plan, which involves five Lincoln-Mercury retailers and thirteen Ford dealerships, is part of a bigger plan to test retailing concepts that customers have asked for in a consumer research study. These concepts include having large inventories of new and used vehicles, enhanced service at service centers and no-haggle pricing. </b>
Exactly, that's why I'm here.
Keep having fun!
-Moo
I had forgotten about that - As best as I remember two things killed the idea. One was pressure from the existing dealer network and the other when Ford realized what they were getting into from a cost and management standpoint. Actually, that idea was to replace the existing network with company owned stores, I don't think much would have changed for the consumer. Also, look at the trouble Ford and GM are having just reducing their dealer networks now, not to mention trying to replace them.
Lots of embellishment going on over there as well.
Well, when you venture into enemy territory, it shouldn't surprise you to get responses like that. You have your place to vent, and the consumer has theirs.
I did think your first post was helpful. But, everything after that was just stirring the pot. Good "entertainment" though.
Most people really don't pamper their cars anyway.
The average Lexus is just a much better built car than the average Hyundai.
Those differences in construction and engineering become more apparent over time.
Without new cars to feed service and parts, the dealerships would flat go out of business.
So, they wouldn't be around for you anyway.
Next, motor co's aren't stupid.
Why would they cut you a break if they could keep the profits for themselves?
These aren't charities,they are businesses.
They exist to improve the bottom line.
12 "storage" hubs?
Are you kidding me?
Where would you go to see the car you want to buy?
The average consumer gets pissed if you don't have the EXACT car they want sitting on your lot right now.
The reason this "model" hasn't been tried is that it doesn't work.
Way back in the day, at the dawn of the auto age, that was how you bought a car. Motor Co's quickly realized that it was cheaper and easier for them to sell the cars to dealers and let the dealers assume the risk and responsibility.
Nothing about that has changed.
I almost wish that you were forced to buy from the factory,and have them service you,because you would see what a bad deal that really would turn out to be.
Factory people are some of the most myopic,unsympatheitc people in the car business.
So... MS3 or M3?
Stay tuned.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Now personally, I wouldn't mind because I would just go to work for the motor co. They still would need sales people.
But, you the consumer would get totally screwed.
I am sorry that you cannot see that, but it is true
If they bother you that much, either make your original offer and stick to it,or just walk away.
The Bimmer dealer across from us does ADM stickers all the time on their hard to get stuff.
If the dealer is getting that money on a Mazda more power to them.
Now, as far as the car is concerned, the Mazda is a nice car,but no match for an M3.
The M3 will cost more to operate than the Mazda will, but is a more rewarding drive.
If your budget allows,I'd go for an M3.
They simply apply the same logic as asking full sticker as "first offer" when the cars go for say $1000-1500 off and invoice is not uncommon. Moreover, while normal markups for $25K car is about $1500-2000 plus holdback, there are seemingly no rules for amounts on ADP stickers. They pull them out of their rear ends (at least initially), simply gaging what will stick. The scale is initially distorted - of course until real market forces start working, such as car remains on the lot for too long, supply increases, demand wears off, some unflattering quality reports come in, etc. Depending on the product, it takes from few months (Civics), a year (PT Cruisers, 300), or even longer (Mini).
I would not get myself worked over that - make your offer and if not accepted look somewhere else if you believe sticker is the price that will get you into one.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Ummm, that was my point. The XC90 is late it's product life cycle and IMO not as competitive with the new models in the segment
In the end, Wilhite and a committee of managers and dealers opted for San Francisco-based Goodby, Silverstein + Partners. Goodby helped to define Hyundai's problem using research involving 200 people who sized up the new Veracruz crossover. When a group was shown the vehicle without any identifying logos on it, 71% said they'd buy it. Once the Hyundai logo went on, however, that dropped to 52%. In the same research, a Toyota logo lifts intent-to-purchase by more than 20%.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_21/b4035069.htm
LOL. Isn't that the "perception" that dealerships have had for the past half century... that they will totally screw you?
It sure would make this place boring though, all the stories would be the same.
Sold another one for list price and made $3000 again. Had a guy ask for $50 off today, told him to hit the street, price is on the window.
So I think I am all for this direct manufacture thing.
I still get a kick out of the concept of negotiating holdback. Every dealership I have ever worked at holdback belonged to the dealership, not the sales department. In other words, the sales department was not paid on holdback at all and therefore, it was not ever a topic of a negotiation. Maybe it is different with some brands that I am not aware of, but not with most
It does, but I've driven BMWs since 1983-both ///M and non ///M-and I thought it might be fun to try something REALLY different.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive