Stories from the Sales Frontlines

jmonroe

Recently I have seen ads on TV for high-end dealers who six months ago would have considered it beneath them to solicit business. These were screamer ads too.

This tells me that even the rich guys like jmonroe and jipster are tightening their belts.

I’m willing to do my part (don't know about jipster) to help the economy and since those high-end places need the most help I’m leeeaning that way.

There are plenty of screamer ads in the paper here in the Burg too. Even flooded with radio commercials especially that BMW one where the guy calls the dealer acting like he has a friend who bought something other than a BMW and is trying to justify the purchase because BMW doesn’t have AWD only to find out that it does. And he goes on with some other options that BMW also has. He closes the call with, “You do take trades don’t you”?

And let’s not forget the snooty MB commercial that ends with something like, “Not to mention our good name”.

My only dilemma is, I can’t show up at a high end store with either of my throw-aways (Hyundai’s) because they won’t take me seriously or worse yet they’ll try to steal it from me. So I’ll have to get a driver with a high-end car and do as I usually do…straight cash deal and keep the throw-away as a rolling spare for when the high-end job makes it’s frequent visits to the rack for needed service. I know, I know, they provide loaners but why would I want to wait for a hook to come and get me another time?

jmonroe

jipster

This tells me that even the rich guys like jmonroe and jipster are tightening their belts

Nahhh, lately I've been poking extra holes in my belt... to loosen it up. All these lovely Edmunds lady members and woman hosts have been sending me all kind of sweet treats for Valentines Day. I need to start my training again if I am to repeat as Edmunds Kickboxing Champion.... so no more candy for me ladies.

madmanmoo

My only dilemma is, I can’t show up at a high end store with either of my throw-aways (Hyundai’s) because they won’t take me seriously or worse yet they’ll try to steal it from me.

You can't be serious....... You're worried that you won't be taken serious when you pull up in your Hyundai? Sure, we get our share of lookie-loos, but it becomes apparent very quickly whether or not you're interested in purchasing a vehicle. Don't sell your turdbucket so short. Those Hyundais are the stepping stone to real transportation. :surprise:

-moo

jmonroe

After all, isn't he the one looking at a new Porsche and a dining room set at the SAME TIME!

You got the looking part right but she's dreamin.

jmonroe

mackabee

I'm not in trouble but I think the company I work for is.
Mack

venture

"At the letter of the regulations, all F&I products must be offered to every customer and acceptance or rejection must be acknowledged in writing."

Care to elaborate on that statement? Especially the in writing part.

Are you saying that the customer must sign a paper saying they did not want, or did want the items presented? Is that only in your area, your dealership, or everywhere?

mackabee

It actually has to do with disability insurance. I paid for it but they never signed me up. When my cancer came back in October one of my sons went to HR to find out if I had coverage and they told him I did. A few days later I get a call from HR saying the money was taken out of my check but somehow never paid to the insurance co. The refunded my money but I think someone made a huge mistake.
Mack

oldfarmer50

"...I'm not in trouble but I think the company I work for is..."

I was fired from a company many years ago for not being a "team player". What the "team" was asking me to do was certainly unethical and at the time I thought illegal.

Two years after they kicked me to the curb the FBI paid them a little visit. I felt bad when they fired me but my mood improved when the "team" started wearing handcuffs.

If you think the principals in your store are up to no good make sure you can document that you were not part of it. :sick:

joel0622

Juat this past week, our parts mgr, brought in their out of warrany Benz for an LOF (lube, oil & filter) and to corrrect a slight leak.
Do you really think we (tech & service writer) charged ANY labor?? Parts, maybe!

Dang, we pay full pop in our SD, hell our Used Car Department pays full pop. We save coupons and he staples them to the AVO's.

imidazol97

>The refunded my money but I think someone made a huge mistake.

Tell us you haven't cashed the check for the refund...

joel0622

Are you saying that the customer must sign a paper saying they did not want, or did want the items presented? Is that only in your area, your dealership, or everywhere?

Yes. It is called being in Compliance. It is not against the law not to do it, you just leave yourself liable if you don't have proof you didn't.

For example, you come into my office to buy a 2002 Mustang with 41000 miles on it. I ask you if you want a Service Contract and you say no.

6 month later the transmission goes out. You walk into the service department and the service writer ask if you have a a Service Contract and you say, "No one ever offered me one"

The burden of proof is on the dealer to prove that we offered you one.

To be in compliance you must offer 100% of the products to 100% of the people 100% of the time. If not then you leave the door open for problems.

Same goes for if you do buy it and come back and say that we did not tell you about it. We produce the menu where you signed saying for example, you accepted the service contract and declined the tire warranty and GAP.

Google " f&i menu compliance" or "f&i compliance" some time and look at all the crap involved in doing it right. You will be surprised that there is much more to it then pitching a payment and getting a contract signed, and the offering 100% of the products to 100% of the people 100% of the time is just the tip of it.

We are looking at a web based menu system right now that will cost us $$700 a month just to address allot of the compliance issues.

Also check out "Red Flag Rules" thats the next paper waive to start hitting dealers which mandatory compliance is required by the end of the year, and then there is always OFAC, that cost us $100 a month to be compliant.

lrguy44

Well put Joel - We are also putting in a Menu system (R&R) and working out the bugs is not an easy task.

lrguy44

Mack - get a lawyer NOW - you know they would rather have you leave then pay disability insurance. I would also return the refund to the dealer and insist they correct the error. When I was off for 4 1/2 months 18 months ago, the disability kept us afloat. You will find out how they value you as an employee.

jipster

The burden of proof is on the dealer to prove that we never offered you one

I'm not a lawyer (thank God, they get dogged on worse than you guys in the biz), but I would think it past impossible to bring a liability suit, and win, against a dealership for not offering a service contract. You stated it's not against the law.... not a contract. So, the "burden of proof" would not be applicable.

If "Compliance" is strictly company or dealership policy... I would think you'd be better off, from a liability standpoint, without it. i.e Customer comes in six months later saying transmission is bad and you didn't offer service contract...your response, "So?" Case closed.

lrguy44

If only the court system worked as logically as you do. There have been legal actions against dealers based on non disclosure and product offerings.

jipster

I guess the whole discrimination/prejudice thing could entire into the picture as well.

lls57

I'm not a lawyer either, but I do have my own business. Oftentimes there is a part of their liability policy that covers exactly your situation. In my policy it is called employee benefits liability coverage. I would look into it. And with a lawyer on your side.

joel0622

It has already happened. I will find the stories later today and post them where the court has made dealers pay repair bills on cars because they could not prove the warranty was offered even though an As IS No Warranty form was signed.

I don't know allot of things but I do know what to do to stay out of trouble.

I will also find stories where down in Alabama they have fined and arrested the management staff on some other compliance issues.

oldfarmer50

"...If only the court system worked as logically as you do..."

Come on now. People are no longer stupid of foolish, they are victims. Just look at the mortgage mess. I buy a 300K house with no money down, no proof of income and an ARM that resets to 20% interest in 3 years and I am shocked that you actually want me to pay my bills. I'm a victim dammit, and I want someone to blame for it all. Hey you, yea you there at the car dealership, my engine blew up because I never changed the oil. I figure it's your fault because you made money selling the car to me. Whaaaaaaa.

Will somebody slap me so I can stop ranting?

Kirstie_H

*slap*


We're starting to venture a bit far afield here.

jipster

I will find the stories later today and post them where the court has made dealers pay repair bills on cars because they could not prove the warranty was offered even though an As IS No Warranty form was signed.

A judge with poor judgment? A bleeding heart easily swayed by someone playing the "victim" card? Just as in any other profession, you'll find some who are incompetent and prejudice. I would think that particular case would have been overturned if the dealership had appealed.

But, where is the "compliance issues" coming from joel? If not the local or state government, then would have to be manufacturers or the dealerships? If you have corporate compliance polices in place for these types of matters, yes, could open yourself up to lawsuits if not followed.

jipster

Will somebody slap me ...

Ain't no way I'm gonna mess with someone who drives a school bus... even if it is only during the winter. I'm thinking you'd have to be Navy Seal tough to drive a school bus and survive the experience.

Maybe put just one child in each bus... then it wouldn't be so bad.

lrguy44

I guess the whole discrimination/prejudice thing could entire into the picture as well

That has more to do with finance issues rather than product offerings, but again is part of compliance. That issue generated some very large class actions.

Most of the cases I have seen in Colorado and the big one in California where people went to jail were on totally illegal practices (like packing a VSC then not turning it in and pocketing all the money). But product offering disclosures and presentation has become a big issue and compliance is prudent. So don't yell at your F&I guy for presenting - he has to.

verdugo

Mack,

Hope all the involved parties doe the right thing for you. It's bad enough that you got cancer again, but if now they screw you over your disability insurance (whether by an error or on purpose) would suck even more.

Keep us posted and good luck.

benzserviceguy

MACK:

Just ONE question .. if you work for a Toyo store and you like the product, can't you get a SCREAMING deal on ANY Toyo product?

Yeah, you liked JOEL'S product (FORD), but wouldn't a TOYO be cheaper??
And just think, if you did need any warranty work, you would not have to drive far.

Juat this past week, our parts mgr, brought in their out of warrany Benz for an LOF (lube, oil & filter) and to corrrect a slight leak.
Do you really think we (tech & service writer) charged ANY labor?? Parts, maybe!

Just asking

danf1

I don't think that you are too far from me. I won't laugh at your Hyundai if that's what you want to trade. I'd much rather have a cheap car going to the auction right now than any high end car.

greanpea68

A few days later I get a call from HR saying the money was taken out of my check but somehow never paid to the insurance co. The refunded my money but I think someone made a huge mistake.

That sucks!!

You should definately get it if you paid for it. Especialy since it is on your pay stubs! :shades:

GOod luck buddy!

GP

oldfarmer50

"...money was taken out of my check but somehow never paid to the insurance co..."

I had a similar experience with the aforementioned bunch of crooks. They never put my wife on my insurance coverage. It was only when we were having our first child after I had been working there seven years that we discovered she was never covered.

These guys also "forgot" to send any money into social security for about 200 people for a three year period potentially screwing up their retirement.

I'm not an expert in how disability works but if they start paying right now wouldn't you be covered? I wish you luck my friend.

mikefm58

Wow that sucks, me thinks someone at your dealership AND the dealership is in some deep doo doo. I hope you have your pay stubs where they deducted the DI premiums. Be sure to tell your employer AND your lawyer how much emotional stress this is causing you AND your family. Seems like a no brainer case to me.

benzserviceguy

OK, similar situation:

(Readers Digest Version)

Wife & I special order 06 LEXUS IS 250 manual tranz WITH all electrical goodies (xcept NAV, mistake I see now)
Negotiate price with IM AFTER car is ordered. Offered deposit, deposit never "charged" to credit card, although imprint was taken.

Several times, confirmed price with IM. car gets closer to delivery & IM calls saying HE made mistake, forgot to include Destination & Delivery ($700 + give or take) would I be willing to SPLIT difference.

At first, I declined saying we had FIRM $$,.After thinking it over and realizing that IM was playing no games, gave me fair $$ up-front from the beginning and was generally "good people", I called and asked if the "'lost" amount would jepoardize this commission level (ie: go from making a 1 or 2 pounder to a mini) and that if it did, I would gladly pay the FULL amount or even the split amount so as to give him his FULL commission.

His response was that he would only loose about $150.00 or less. Again, I offered to pay or split. He again refused and said "I'll chalk this up as a learning experience"

Upon delivery, I gave the IM a $100.00 Cheesecake Restaurant gift card AND $100.00 CASH. I thanked him for the deal AND apologized for the miscommunication and error on the charge.

To this day, I still keep in contact with the IM and try to send him as much LEXUS biz as possible. When I'm in his area, I always try to stop by and exchange "war stories" with him.

Oh and yes, I did give him 100% PERFECT CSI !!!

-SKIP-

madmanmoo

You're an awesome customer. If only more were as easy going! :shades:

-moo

venture

"But product offering disclosures and presentation has become a big issue and compliance is prudent. So don't yell at your F&I guy for presenting - he has to."

I asked because I don't remember signing anything the last three or four cars I bought. I do remember the F&I guy at the Subaru store asking me to sign something when I bought the wifes Subaru last year, but I didn't sign anything.

It reminds me of what another person here at Edmunds said one time (paraphrasing), "It's like going to get milk at the grocery store and when checking out they ask you to sign a paper saying you don't want a turkey".

It makes no sense from the consumer end.

venture

I'm not blaming anyone. Just an observation.

houdini1

Mack, there was a story tonight on NBC NEWS about a woman who had her medical insurance canceled while she was undergoing chemo for cancer. She has just been awarded around $150,000. in actual damages.....and about $9,000,000. in punitive damages. Tax free of course.

Punitive damages are damages that are assessed against defendants in order to punish them for grievously bad actions. Even better, her cancer is now in remission so she will get to enjoy her victory.

Oh yeah, sold any cars lately? Have to stay on topic.

mackabee

Thank you all for the advice. I'm still waiting on my lawyer to get back to me after they check for conflicts of interest. If any are found than he will refer me to someone else.
Mack

mackabee

I read about it. She actually got like 15 million award. The small amount was for the actual damages and the big amount for punitive damages. If I remember correctly she had one cycle of chemo and then they cancelled her insurance. Just to stay on topic I hope she buys cars for all her family.
I'm glad this one worked out for her.
Mack

verdugo

"It makes no sense from the consumer end. "

Don't blame the dealers. Blame the litigious society. The car business is not the only one that suffers from this extra burden.

verdugo

No worries. I misread your intention. If it's any consolation, from what the biz guys here have told us, it doesn't make sense from their end either.

joel0622

"It's like going to get milk at the grocery store and when checking out they ask you to sign a paper saying you don't want a turkey".

If your milk is sour a turkey won't fix it and worst case scenario is you pay $4 for another gallon of milk.

I don't know if anybody took the time to google the stuff I mentioned but you would be amazed at all the compliance issues.

oldfarmer50

"...Plymouth Arrow...99.9%...been crushed..."

Boy what a double insult. I thought Click and Clack were "good 'ol boys" who would be more likely to be driving Plymouths and Hyundais than BMWs.

Maybe it's just my poor hillbilly neighborhood but I see a lot more 20 year old K cars running around than new BMWs. I think the fact that they are still limping around a decade longer than their design life speaks for itself.

oldfarmer50

"...It was a Mitsubishi product...

Damned if you ain't right. I only remember the Colt that Dodge put out in the 70's being from Mitsu. What was the second generation K body car that Plymouth came out with about 1990? I thought that was called the Arrow also.

Or am I getting senile? :sick:

jmonroe

We have a 2006 Hyundai Elantra GLS tha I can make you a great deal on. It does have a salvage title…

I already have two of those throw-aways now and they’re both better than what you’re pushing. There is only me and you know who in the household now. I think if the town I live in see’s another one of those on the property, I’ll need a dealer’s license.

What do you say? we got a deal?

I already answered that. Find another sucker buyer.

jmonroe

cdnpinhead

"...cigarette smoking...Republican..."

The only two groups which people are allowed to hate anymore...car salespeople are beloved by comparison.

Well, there is a third (plentry of overlap, as it turns out) -- white males.

604doc

Crickets were built in England I believe.

greanpea68

If you don't drive a Honda or a Toyota then as far as the Metro sexual class of America is concerned you are a, Red neck, gas guzzling driven,baby seal clubbing, littering, non environmentally cautious, cigarette smoking, tap water drinking, fast food eating, domestic beer drinking, gun toting Republican who in their opinion is a second class citizen.

ROFL....

Go McCain!!!! :surprise:

GP

isellhondas

Remember the ads? Mustang II - Boredom Zero?

Those were dark days for a lot of the car manufactures!

kyfdx

Yeah.... the only saving grace, is that mine had a 302 V-8..

So... not only was I driving a crappy car.. it was fast enough to get an 18-yr-old in a lot of trouble...

jmonroe

As usual while having my Sunday morning second cup of coffee, I’m reading Click and Clack.

A guy wants to buy a Plymouth Arrow for his sons 16th birthday. Well, one of these X-pals of mine says:

“…Fortunately for your kid, 99.9% of these cars have already been crushed, shipped to Korea as scrap metal, and sent back as Hyundais.” :surprise:

For a second there, I almost reached for my keyboard. I thought my old poster buddy ’isell’ was ripping those throw-aways again. Then I got to thinking, this may be why they have such a bad rap. Who other than ‘isell’ is really counting that 0.1% ? I have to think by now they ought to be worth the paint they’re putting on that Korean iron.

I was also thinking of canceling my subscription to that paper if it weren’t for all the pretty pictures of the cars I get to look at on Sunday morning.

jmonroe

kyfdx

Do you guys really remember the Plymouth Arrow?

It was a Mitsubishi product (I think), and truly, truly a crappy little car.. First year was 1976, and probably gone by 1980? Doubt I've seen one since 1990.. They probably weren't safe when new, and definitely wouldn't be now..

For a good comparison, think Mustang II..

joel0622

You are just living in a stereo type that I face every day.

If you don't drive a Honda or a Toyota then as far as the Metro sexual class of America is concerned you are a, Red neck, gas guzzling driven,baby seal clubbing, littering, non environmentally cautious, cigarette smoking, tap water drinking, fast food eating, domestic beer drinking, gun toting Republican who in their opinion is a second class citizen.