Stories from the Sales Frontlines

snakeweasel

Yeah and Capone ran soup kitchens during the depression. So what?

dc_driver

"To those posters saying it’s a flawed system – you’re right. Its not about how happy customers are its about how well you can get them to check the right boxes. Granted this is easier to do with happy customers but the grading system is a joke. In fact - since GM has taken over Saturn - we are now graded on but a single question. The entire survey process is now pass fail on the ststrengthf but one question."

Great post.. I am not the most sympathetic person, but I honestly feel for you guys (car salesman) with regards to these ridiculous surveys. I know this issue (CSI) has been hammered to death, but you think these car companies that have billions of dollars and pay their CEO's hundreds of millions(if not in the low billions) could adopt some of the better susurveyshat exist. I work for a Fortune 500 tech company, and we have a very good survey which has really helped us to raise our sales and overall customer satisfaction. The car industry CSI seems like a waste of the customers time, as well as very unfair to sales.

lemko

I love this show. It's something how some of these customers just like to dig themselves in deeper. Last night, they showed an episode where a couple who were the first customers of one of the salesman came back for a repeat sale. They had a 2002 Dodge Intrepid in which they were $10K upside down and wanted a new loaded 2006 Dodge Durango. They had no down payment and the vehicle they wanted was about $24K. At that rate, their payment was $780. The couple couldn't even scrape together a measly $1,500 to offset the negative equity on their trade. Eventually, they got a 2005 Dodge Durango with only 5K on the clock, but the payment was a whopping $680 a month. I never paid this much for my Cadillac.

snakeweasel

They had a 2002 Dodge Intrepid in which they were $10K upside down

How can you be $10K upside down on a 2002 Dodge Intrepid? They must have bought it used and rolled negative equity from another car into it. These people need to be talking to a financial advisor not a car salesman.

graphicguy

Mathias....I can't say that I've ever encountered a car dealer taking advantage of me, either. That said, I've also been the person who has double (sometimes triple) checked all the figures before signing the papers on a car.

I'd say a third of the time, there were errors. They weren't "big" errors (couple hundred, at most). Intentional? Dunno! They were always corrected before I drove away, however.

This was a while ago, but I was at a GM dealership to purcahse a car. I qualify for GMO/GMS (I think GM has changed that designation, but it's employee pricing) since my bro-in-law is a GM employee. We got down to the final figues in the F&I office. The prices are pretty clear cut and I had bought GM cars this way before. Coudln't figure out where an extra $100 in the dealer's favor was coming from. Both the F&I manager and I went over the figures several times and still were coming up with different numbers.

Ended up that the dealership was adding a $100 doc fee to my transaction. It wasn't listed in the "feels" section since GMS/GMO rules stated the dealership couldn't charge doc fees. Dealership tried to bury it in the actual purchase price numbers. Coincidence? I was suspect since it wasn't listed as a seperate fee and it looked to me like they were trying to hide it.

My private seller buys were much more underhanded than any I've ever done at a dealership. My son was buying his first car when he turned 16, he found what looked to be a nice Saturn....all detailed. It was about 7 years old, at the time, but looked nice, low mileage, and had all the service records. The owners had received all service by a 3rd party shop, not the dealership.

My son was hot on the car. It was his money he was spending, the price was right (after some "dickering") so I told him if he wanted it, go ahead and buy it, but to let me look at it first. We called the mechanic and he said that the car had been meticulously maintained by him.

Long and short of it, once the sale was complete, I gave it a closer look. While the car looked good.....come to find out, the oil hadn't been changed in what looked like years. Oil filter was actually "stuck" since it was so old. Brake warning light was disconnected (leading to a new master cylinder, rotors and brakes). The mechanic who endorsed the car? He was the seller's brother.

jlawrence01

How can you be $10K upside down on a 2002 Dodge Intrepid?

How many people over the years have posted that they still owe $10-12k on an 8 year-old Cavalier? More than a few.

Guy at work stops me in the hallway. He has a 21 year old son who makes under $1k per month and has a $300 monthly child support settlement. Needs a car as he has destroyed the last one. Tried to hook him up with an older under $3k sedan.

Nope. Ends up with a $10k 2002 Hyundai Elantra. Hope he keeps up with the maintenance.

dc_driver

I saw this episode too.. I don't understand people. They were 10K upside down on the Intrepid because they blew the engine and wanted to buy new instead of fix their car (they also still owed money on the car, and I'll bet they financed it for 7 years).

Also, you could tell that the wife did not feel comfortable paying $680 a month on a vehicle (I got the sense they were way over their head), and then they buy a gas guzzler on top of that with gas prices hovering around $3 a gallon..

So, instead of paying 1500-3000 to fix their car, they go out and dump a ton of money into an SUV that they most likely cannot afford...

snakeweasel

The mechanic who endorsed the car? He was the seller's brother.

Thats why you get your own mechanic that you trust to inspect the car.

snakeweasel

How many people over the years have posted that they still owe $10-12k on an 8 year-old Cavalier? More than a few.

Oh I know that it happens but I don't understand how. Usually its from rolling over negative equity from previous cars. If you keep doing this you will end up buying a 4 year old car with a note equal to the price of a the car when it was new. People have to start buying cars within their means and keeping them longer.

That guys son needs to be paying for everything cash until he can get that monthly income up. I would hazard to guess that the payments on the Elantra would take up at least half of what was left of his income after taxes and child support.

qbrozen

Yup. That was an interesting episode. Just makes you cringe.

Another one that made me cringe was the guy who had something like 3 repos in 5 years. Couldn't get him financed AT ALL, so they turn to his buddy sitting next to him to see if he will cosign. Any buddy should run screaming from that proposition, but he agrees. They run his credit and find out he was just as bad.

Thankfully, they wound up not getting this guy into a car, but good grief, I just sat there shaking my head during the whole segment.

jlawrence01

I do not think that people realize what they are doing when they cosign for a vehicle. Or they don't care ...

corvette

A cosigner is often referred to as "an idiot with a pen."

dc_driver

When I served in the military (101st Airborne Division, Ft. Campbell Kentucky), you would not believe how some of the smaller (fly by night) dealers prey on young guys and gals from the military who they know get a set paycheck every month.

I began counseling all of the junior enlisted soldiers when they bought a car and helped them to get pre-approved for a car loan through the credit union.

I remember an 18 year old private who had about a $700 a month car payment on a used Trans AM ( I think he paid about 24K for the car). Turns out his interest rate was 19%.. After I drove down to the dealer to rip him a new you know what, we were able to refinance the car through the credit union at 6%... It saved him about $180 a month..

Now, too be fair, there were some good local car dealers who would took good care of the local soldiers, and they got a ton of business. There were also several dealers which we effectively put on a "watch" list so new soldiers to the area would not get burned...

snakeweasel

Unfortunately its not just dealerships that take advantage of military personnel. My first duty station had an unofficial list of several places to stay away from which even included a church.

michaellno

I live close to Colorado Springs, which has both an Army base (Fort Carson) as well as an AF Base (Petersen). When I listen to a Springs radio station, I occasionally hear screamer ads from dealers that seem to specifically target military folks.

Don't know how many of them have good or bad reputations, but it makes you wonder....

deserth8r

It is not just car dealers, there are also more payday loan places near military bases, I am stationed out of Fort Lewis, WA, and there are plenty of businesses that promise easy credit, and they make a ton of money. We also have a list of businesses that are off limits, altough the majority of them are massage parlors that give "happy endings".

snakeweasel

The thing about the military is that there is an awful lot of naive 18 year olds that are away from their old support system (family and friends) for the first time and have a steady paycheck for the first time. Add to that the fact that there is always new people to the area that may not know about you and your tactics and the fact that the base personnel turn over every 2 or 3 years makes them a tempting target.

Plus, while I am not sure about anyone else, but when I was in the service we spent money like drunken sailors...wait we were drunken sailors so never mind.

jmonroe

...People have to start buying cars within their means and keeping them longer.

snake,

You know this, I know this and the readers of this thread know this.

Some people always want new, always want more than they can afford, always want to impress and won't listen to reason no matter how valid the advice is. It's almost like you can hear them saying, "you have yours, why don't you want me to have mine" ?

jmonroe

au1994

there's a post over on the project cars forum you should check out. Several old Rovers on there....

louiswei

What amazes me is how many buyers are payment buyers. Every episode the customer just walked in and said: I want a new car and I am willing to pay $xxx a month. The only buyers I saw on the show whom aren't negotiating by monthly payment are the father/daughter team which got blue genuine his 2-car deal. If my memory serves me right I believed the father bought a used G35 coupe and the daughter got an 05' M3. I think they got a decent deal compare to those other buyers.

benderofbows

I live within 5 miles of a major east coast army base. Across the street from the entrance to my neighborhood there is a Mazda dealership that keeps all of its Mazdas in the back, you can't even see them from the road or look at them after hours because they're behind the fence!. Guess what they have in the front rows? ALL the cars are used, high-speed sports cars: SVT Cobras (5 of them!), Camaros, Trans Ams, 300 Turbo and 350Zs, GTOs, Vettes, even saw a rare Supra. Its obvious they know what they are doing...

dc_driver

That, and it is no secret that there is a ton of money to be made on used cars. Especially "certified" used cars

When I started shopping for a Honda Odyssey van, I found there to be only a 1-3K difference between a new one and a used one with the exact same features. Why would I pay 1-2K less for a van that is 1-2 years older with 8-25K miles?

Ahhh, to be 18 again...... I went from RX-7's to minivans....

graphicguy

dc....that's funny right there.....RX-7s to minivans. Only reason it's funny is the mere fact that we've all been there at one time or another.

tsgeisel

I didn't investigate the quality of them, but I was amused that I was offered a longer warranty on the certified used cars on the lot than I was on the new cars on the lot.

For Toyota, anyway.

afk_x

Here is another CSI story – with one of my most interesting customers. For purposes of the story I’ll call my customer Hank.

I up Hank on a Sunday afternoon, and he is interested in buying an S series Saturn for flat towing behind his motor home. He has a think southern drawl, but is not laid back like you might expect with the tounge. He is short spoken, and difficult to build rapport with. He was very detail oriented in his questions. Fortunately - product knowledge was never my weakness. An average sized man; he is wearing a Special Forces cap and has a medium build.

Eventually, we make a deal, and Hank starts to loosen up a little. He meets one of the managers, who is from Iran originally. Turns out Hank speaks fluent Farsi among other languages. I start asking questions, and find out Hank was retired from the CIA and did quite a bit of his work in the Middle East as a “consultant”.

When I’m taking the trade in keys off his wife’s ring for her, I ask her about the mental wand approximately 6” long. She tells me it’s for self-defense. Since it is fairly heavy I ask if it is for striking your attacker on the head or face or what? Hank then grabs it from my hand and says “Son this is a lethal weapon. I could jab it into your chest and rip your heart out while its still beating!” Not sure if he was serious or not, I just smiled and nodded. He looked serious. I also noticed at this point his forearms were bulging from sinewy muscled flesh. Looks like he could do some serious damage with that little wand...

After F&I when I’m giving Hank my survey speech, I find out he had spent his last five working years teaching at the Air Force Academy. He said “Son, I haven’t given a grade higher than B+ for five years. An A means there is no room for improvement and everyone can improve”. I told him I agreed with him 100% and was always working on improving myself. Since I didn’t want him to have to mark the survey in a manner he wasn’t comfortable with I asked him to please not fill it out.

A month later I get the survey results. Hank has marked it 100% across the board. In the comment section he remarked, “Good job son, B+”.

I see him regularly in service. He has since purchased a second vehicle from me, put on about 35 pounds, mostly in the belly. He tends to wear floral Hawaiian shirts and has mellowed out a huge amount. Quite an interesting guy indeed.

explorerx4

does he still have the 'eye of the tiger?'. don't let the belly fool you.

dc_driver

"I didn't investigate the quality of them, but I was amused that I was offered a longer warranty on the certified used cars on the lot than I was on the new cars on the lot. "

The certified warranty usually only covers limited powertrain parts, it is definitely not a bumper to bumper warranty..

british_rover

Not all CPO programs are the same. Our CPO Land Rover Warranty is identical to the factory Rover warranty with two exceptions.

Pre-Paid maintence is not extended and there is a 100 dollar deductible.

Other then that it is identical. Covers all of the same stuff bumper to bumper and is a huge bargain.

It is a 2 year 25,000 mile extension of the factory warranty.

Oh and I am going to check out the project cars thread now.

mikefm58

http://www.wesh.com/news/9617655/detail.html

He collected sales tax from folks he sold a car to, but didn't send the money to the state. He also failed to pay off the loans of trade-ins he took in.

His dealership is called Terry Motors.....hmmmmmm. Where has Terry been lately?

british_rover

Yeah warranty companies are very very strange. The whole set up is just odd for everything.

Our 100,000 miles warranty is offered in 7 years from original in service date or 8 years.

There are different warranty types if you are the original owner or if you bought the car used or if you bought it used and certified and I think one other kind as well.

I am sure it has all to do with how the warranty company has calculated the various odds for insuring a vehicle that is still in the original owners hands first a second hand vehicle.

bolivar

We've all got an opinion about auto dealers, but Terry may have gone down the path of many small businesses in the US.

When thing aren't going well, or the Indian poker tables haven't been giving back money, or whatever - one of the first things that happens is that the employee's social security withholding and the employer's matching amount are not sent in to the government. And the employee's income tax withholding amounts are not sent in. And the state (there's also a Federal component) unemployment insurance is not paid. And if a business is collecting sales taxes, it also isn't paid.

With a business running in the red, many times this isn't actually stealing the money, there isn't any real money available in the business to make these payments. But, rather than shutting down the place, these taxes will not be paid. It takes quite a while for the governments to catch up to this. Probably over a year, at which time the business also does not pay its corporate income taxes. The place might be making the payroll checks good, but that's all. It's accounts payables is also getting bigger and bigger as the business keeps buying supplies, etc and not paying for them.
The business is buried in tax debt. The business folds. Employees that did get paid did not get SS credits to their account toward retirement.

Sometimes, people go to jail.

In the movie 'Fargo', they never did tell us what the William Macy character did with the $300,000+ that he was needing to come up with. I think that was the amount he owed GM Finance for new car inventory. Maybe he paid for an option to buy on that nice property at the edge of town that his slime-ball father-in-law was going to cut him out of.

lemko

Scary thought! That's why you should always make sure your current ride is paid-off and you have the title before making a trade. Good God, think of how many people's already shaky credit has been ruined by such a despicable, or at best, extremely negligent action.

capitano

Nice story. It takes all kinds to make the world go round.

Since we had been talking grammar...
It's funny to see the the evolution of the word "up" in the car sales context.

It starts with "Who's up?" where up is an adjective descibing the salesman.

It changes to "whose up?" where up is now a a noun used to identify the customer.

Finally in Afk_X's post we see "I up Hank" in which up is now a verb that means to get a walk-in customer at the dealership.

snakeweasel

It takes quite a while for the governments to catch up to this. Probably over a year, at which time the business also does not pay its corporate income taxes.

The taxing agencies (IRS and state revenue agencies) tend to catch on to this very quickly. Once you stop filing the required paperwork they will start asking questions. I have seen the IRS start going after these people in about a 6 month time frame.

Then there are ex-employees that sometimes rat out those business's that do that when they get screwed.

In the movie 'Fargo', they never did tell us what the William Macy character did with the $300,000+ that he was needing to come up with.

Actually they did strongly hint to what it was. IIRC it was something to do with a parking garage. Maybe not but he was going to start some sort of business. Near the beginning his father-in-law agreed to finance the deal and he tried to stop the kidnapping.

british_rover

You will probably remember me talking about this woman before here...

Previous story

So this morning her and her husband come in again to drop off their vehicle for a service. I see them pull up on her Range and his G500 but it doesn't really click who they are till they step out.

I am in my office and since I have delt with them the past several times they have been into complain about something I decide to stay in my office.

The husband comes in and starts complaining right away that there are not any service loaners avaliable for him. Then he spots his saleman and goes over to him to complain about the sirius radio thing again. That was more then a month and a half ago and he still will not let it go.

Meanwhile the wife is still berating our service department about not having a loaner car for her. Well they are on a first come first serve basis and we are just out right now.

Offer to rent her a car from enterprise at our expense and she still won't have any of it.

On the other side of the showroom the husband is starting to yell at my fellow salesguide and I decide that I should go out there and see what is going on.

I step out of the office and they are nose to nose toe to toe and it really looks like they are about to get physical.

The customer finaly backs down after a couple of seconds. He was basicly trying to call the sales guide a liar right to his face even though he was the one lying. He finally backed down and left the showroom.

I gotta say that guy must have been the sterotypical bully when he was a kid. Demonstrates all of the normal signs of trying to push people around and act all big and bad but once you stand up to them and call them on what they are saying he backs down quick.

snakeweasel

I know to many people like that. They are only happy when they complain. Even if you had a loaner they would have found something about it to complain about. You will never make them happy so don't fret it.

louiswei

And he's a doctor? Geez.

british_rover

Oh I know. I just find it amusing each time they come in cause they always cause a problem.

Even if everything else would have been perfect they would have complained about the car. Cause when my co-worker tried to defuse the situation by asking hime how they car was driving and how they liked it and everything the guy responded with...

Well it is ok not great but ok. The BMW motor was much faster off the line then that jaguar thing is.

Everyone thinks that but it is just psycological. The BMW motor was a much louder engine it just sounded faster. The 0-60, 0-100 and 1/4 mile time are all faster in the 2006 Range Rovers.

Twenty-three more horsepower and better gearing will do that.

nortsr1

british rover:
Just saw picures of the upcoming LR2. When will it be in the showrooms and a price, please.

snakeweasel

The BMW motor was a much louder engine it just sounded faster.

But don't you know louder means faster? Thats the theory behind fart cans.

british_rover

Don't know and don't know.

Only pricing info I have been given is second hand and they told me it would start about 15% less then the LR3 starts.

LR3s start around 40,000 so the LR2 should start around 33,000 to 34,000 which makes sense because that is about where a fully optioned Freelander stopped.

The plan is to slot another vehicle in below the LR2 in price and size within the next three to five years.

I don't expect it in showrooms till sometime in 2007.

mac24

But don't you know louder means faster? Thats the theory behind fart cans.

.......and K&N air filters.

british_rover

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Oh and the guy is not just a doctor he is an OB-GYN.

imidazol97

I wonder how sympathetic he is to his patient's complaints and concerns.

jmonroe

And he's a doctor? Geez.

Haven't we all met doctors that we don't care for? Aren't they the ones that we don't go to anymore? I'm sure that all of our sales friends that hang out here have met their fair share.

jmonroe

phinneas519

british_rover, I know this isn't entirely relevant to the thread, but I think I recall it being discussed before, ever so slightly, so I'll give it a shot. In your experience (or anyone's here), are people who come in to service at a dealer treated accordingly to the model or make that they have? Does this also apply if they have an obscure, though cheaper, vehicle? I haven't had enough experience myself to really presume one or the other.

jhs70

Jerry needed the money to pay off GMC finance. Remember, he gets a call from Wally Diefenbach that "his patience is at an end." Jerry has apparently secured loans for nonexistent cars. He chicken scrawls the VIN numbers and Wally can't read them. It's because they don't exist. They never really say that, but that's what seems to be implied. This is a great movie. (What's this got to do with cars???)

snakeweasel

I do believe the trouble with GMC finance was that there was a car missing from inventory. Remember he gave one to the kidnappers. In the beginning of the movie he is talking to his father-in-law about a business proposition which his FIL won't do. Shortly afterwards his FIL says yes to the deal and Jerry tries to call off the kidnapping.

tsgeisel

"This is a great movie. (What's this got to do with cars???)"

Because Jerry worked for Bill Heard?

british_rover

We treat everyone equally but the golden rule applies for sure.

If a customer treats the service people poorly there just might not be any loaner vehicles for them the next time they come in for service.

If they return a loaner vehicle all trashed and empty then they may not get a loaner vehicle the next time.

Now to take another direction.

I shot some video of me puttling a LR3 on our rock display. These are four short videos that I took everytime I got out of the truck to check my clearances as I was doing this without a spotter and mainly using my mirrors. You can't see my ugly mug in any of the videos but I do give commentary.

Part one

Part 2

Part 4

Part 4