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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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This pretty much says the same thing that I said in post #2675, which BTW, was never answered by the Rover guy.
Maybe you just can't defend some things no matter what the junk costs!!
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I think the salesman could have handled it better but he didn't, so that's done.
By your own admission, you were not prepared, so, do your research and if you still want the car and the price you offered was too low, raise it.
I would definitely go back to the same dealer unless they have a bad reputation, don't cut off your nose to spite your face, just make sure you use a different salesman. If you can get the deal you want with a new salesman, after you have the signed paperwork, asked to see the jerk that chased you away, show him the contract and say, "this is the sale you could have had".
When you can, it is your responsibility to train poor salespeople how not to treat a customer so that there are less of them for both you and your fellow consumer to contend with the next time.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
OH NO!!
If this is true, does this mean that Edmunds may start a thread titled:
"DOES ANYBODY WANT THIS JUNK"
Of course somebody will try to spin it saying "Ford needs money", ergo, the sale.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I bought a 2006 LR3HSE and have had no trouble at all in 8 months of ownership (5,700 miles).
I have two friends that have the new big Range Rovers... they are happy, my brother has a 2003 Discovery, and, at 50,000 miles, he has had no trouble either.
Mark156
Does that mean that James Bond might be driving a jag in the future?
Personally I think Bond should be driving a Fusion or a Camry or a Accord or the like.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
mark156:
No, I personally haven't had a bad experience with one. By industry standards, 5,700 miles or even 50,000 miles is hardly enough miles to determine quality. All I'm saying is that from what I've heard from people that have them and from what I have read about their long term reliability, there is something lacking. Also, as I have said before, if it were me and I spent that kind of money, I would expect more a lot more.
I'm glad that you have had no problems so far and I wish you continued good luck.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
you said: "Also, as I have said before, if it were me and I spent that kind of money, I would expect more a lot more."
If you did spend that kind of money, what would you want more of? Land Rovers are pretty well loaded up and refined.
Mark156
I would be embarrassed to own a $40,000-$70,000 vehicle whose marque perenially ends up dead last in most automotive quality surveys.
That said, I sometimes wonder if there is a correlation between the average person who buys a Land Rover (or Mercedes, or BMW), their lifestyle, and the amount of maintenance actually done on their cars. Most Japanese brand owners I know (including myself) are completely anal about getting their cars serviced. American/Luxury brands... not so much. My sister would never change the oil in her Olds if my father didn't do it himself when she came to visit. :P
Well in Die Another Day, he dumped the BMW's of the previous 2 films and returned to an Aston. The villians all drove Jaguars. Ford provided plenty of vehicles to that film.
The one friend that I mentioned that has a new Land Rover Range Rover has just bought a new LR3 for his house in Florida. He leases and only keeps cars 2 yrs max. He also has a 2006 BMW 745il. That's a few bucks going out every month on leases!
Mark
If you did spend that kind of money, what would you want more of? Land Rovers are pretty well loaded up and refined.
I have two Hyundai's:
(1) 2005 XG 350 (mine)
(2) 2006 Sonata LX (wife)
You see, I consider cars (mostly) as 'Point A' to 'Point B' devices, that's all. By expecting more, I meant quality/longevity not by all the wigits that can be pilled into/onto them which probably wont be working in 5/6 years, like I've been told happens with Rovers.
Since I usually keep cars for at least 8/9 years I'll have to wait to see if they work out for me. I know if I spent more than I did to get the same or less quality, I would not be satisfied.
As my neighbor, who also owns a couple Hyundai's said, "once you get over gagging after having said the word HYUNDAI they're really pretty good cars".
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Well I will say this, my current daily drive went 125K miles before anything major went wrong (the only thing I did to it was routine maintence), and I only paid about 12-13K for it. So for 70K I would expect something like that or better. If I am paying tons of money for a car it better be built tons of money worth.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Getting routine service is easier if you've got a Camcord - just hop on over to one of those quick oil-change places. I'd be a lot more hestiant about bringing a 7-series or a Range Rover to one of them. With vehicles like that you pretty much have to use the dealerships for routine maintenance, and even if the cost is no object there's still the fact that going to the dealership for service can be mighty inconvenient.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Actually I think the term to use would be "Bleeding edge". Thats when technology is so new that it is untested, unproven and full of bugs. So named because people who use it bleed money trying to keep it running.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
BTW, with bleeding edge would be a term for internal use only, cutting edge would be one that actually sells the product. Others could include "high tech", or "avant guard" or similar.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Unfortunately with competition the way it is many companies put out things that are bleeding edge all the time. Sort of "get it out before the competition does and we will fix the problems later". The result id "cutting edge" technology that fails.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My one main weakness is cars.... I'm a car nut, I go to my monthly car club meetings. I don't smoke, over-drink or chase women
I made the big mistake this past weekend of driving my friends new Bentley Arnage... oh the power!
Mark156
his isn’t as mind boggling as it may first appear. If you don’t impose the proper specifications, even the best manufactures can’t build the parts you need for your application and once they build these parts you have to be able to verify the quality by extensive testing. As a car manufacture, this is imperative and when you don’t do this, only bad things happen. On top of this, you have to ensure when all the pieces are bolted together, they work as a system. It doesn’t appear that this was done either.
The only persistant issue I have seen has been air suspension issues with early LR3s and Range Rover Sports. The air suspension system is incredibly complex and can sometimes trigger faults when they are not really needed.
In my opinion, anything that is incredibly complex shouldn’t be in cars or in the hands of the every day person. Wait until you get it right before you pass it off to the public. Most of the time when you try to get too cute it comes back and bites you.
I’m sure, now that Ford is the parent-owner, things will get better but if it were me paying this kind of money, I’d wait.
Just a little off topic from the above but what percentage (approx) of Rover customers, at your store, buys vs. leases ?
Land Rover's quality has gone up so much in the past few years that you cannot even compare Land Rovers from three years ago to the ones built today. The LR3 for example does not share a single component with the Discovery II it replaced. Ford has only owned Land Rover for just over six years. It took them almost twice as long to get Jaguars quality straight and I think with the way things are going Land Rover will be on top of Jaguar within the next couple of years.
The new LR2 is being built at Jaguar's Halewood which has won numerous awards for quality.
Awards
The LR2 will be a great start out the gate for Land Rover as their first real volume car in the US and the first time Land Rover has had four current model year vehicles in the US as well.
Ford is still cleaning up the labor mess left behind by BMW and although it is mostly fixed I am sure there are still some problems. When the labor problems were at their worst you would get new discovries off the truck that would blow a motor within just a few hundred miles. Once the motor was pulled out a smiley face would be seen painted on the side of the block and the motor was found to be assembled incorrectly. The motor was put together just enough to get it through the quality checks but that is it.
Motors for the current Land Rovers are made along side most other jaguar and volvo motors at the bridgend plant. They are no longer produced at solihul.
Of all the Land Rovers I have sold only three have been problem vehicles. Now I am defining problem vehicles as the customer needed to bring the car back more then one time to have the same issue fixed or needed to bring the vehicle back more then once a month to have seperate issues fixed.
The first two problem cars were early build LR3s that had a chaffed wiring harness in two different parts of the vehicle. Nothing bad was damaged but the park distance control was shorted out on one and the 02 sensors were givign bad readings that caused check engine lights on the other.
The last problem Land Rover was a real problem car. It was a freelander however and the people knew about the issues those vehicles have. I don't sell the freelanders without letting people know all of their problems. We will not sell a freelander without a warranty either.
The freelander was a lemon but it was a used car and their is no lemon law for used cars. We basicly bought the car back on our own without any help from Land Rover. We put them into another vehicle that kept their payments about the same with hardly any money out of their pocket. We took a bit of a loss in getting them out of the bad car as well but it was the right thing to do. Now we have a freelander that we cannot sell to someone since we know it has issues.
It is used as a company vehicle now for very short trips.
As to the leasing of Range Rovers I would guess they are leased by about a third of customers. Most of our buyers are cash buyers. They bring in 40,000 dollars or 50,000 dollars and a trade to buy the Range Rover or they just bring in 70,000 to a 100,000 in cash.
I have more to say but I am getting tired of typing. I am going to talk about Consumer reports and their flawed stastical analysis procedures next.
So the rumors started that ford was going to sell off jaguar. Then the counter rumor started that they would not do that because land rover and jaguar are linked in too many ways now and Land Rover is very profitable.
Then the counter counter rumors started that ford would sell jaguar and as a parting gift since obviously no one wants jaguar the buying company would get land rover too.
I highly doubt any of that is going to happen.
Even if it does I already know a handful of Range Rover owners in the UK that are extremely wealthy and own their own investment company that are trying to raise more money to buy Land Rover.
That is the kind of money these people have that is just impossible for most people to comprehend. If it looks like ford will sell off Land Rover these people have the steam with just a little bit more cash from some outside investors to buy Land Rover out right from ford.
I think it would be intersting if it happend as the Brits would be in control of one of their own auto companies for the first time in many years but I still doubt any of it will happen.
I made the big mistake this past weekend of driving my friends new Bentley Arnage... oh the power!
I don't blame you for liking cars, I was just never all that excited about them. I just wanted nice reliable transportation. I know this is hard for most guys to believe but I was never excited about Corvette's either. My adult sons to this day can't believe it. Several friends had them and when my sons were young they couldn't wait to go for rides with them.
I don't even know what a Bentley Arnage is but if it excites you and is within your price range, by all means, go for it. As the saying goes, you only live once.
Happy driving,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I will believe this when I see the JD Powers durability studies in three years. These types of surveys may be flawed, but, to paraphrase Hedwig, they're what we have to work with. :shades:
I have always lived near the Corvette plant, so I have sort of a soft spot for them, but don't think I would ever buy one. I'd take one if I won it, though!
and I was getting tired reading!
I am going to talk about Consumer reports and their flawed stastical analysis procedures next.
Please, not right away. My eyes are tired.
That was some post but you didn't say anything to change my mind about Rover quality. The promise that they will get better is still not enough for me. I want a proven track record.
Thanks for the reply.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I'm surprised, with your handle, I would have thought you had a garage full of them.
Maybe when I grow up I'll buy one but I really like your way better.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
There is a major shift in the mindset of everyone involved - manufacturers put untested stuff in and the customers accept the risk of that for the sake of getting more that the competition.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
When you spend $76,000 for a car, you expect it to be bulletproof.
What you don't expect is for Consumer Reports to call it "unreliable," and for J.D. Power and Associates to give it below average ratings across a range of manufacturing quality measures.
But had you bought a 2006 Range Rover, both would be the case.
J.D. Power gives the Range Rover a below average rating for overall manufacturing quality, a score it says is "based on problems that have caused a complete breakdown or malfunction of any component, feature or item, i.e., components that stop working or trim pieces that break or come loose."
Trim pieces that break or come loose? This sounds not only unacceptable on an expensive car but also like a step back in time. This is 2006, not the 1960s, or even the 1980s, when cars still died by the side of the road for no apparent reason, and vehicles would suddenly catch fire and create freeway bottlenecks.
To help you avoid such predicaments, we've compiled a list of the least reliable luxury cars on the market. The five models in the slide show are the only new luxury cars with both the lowest-possible scores for predicted reliability from Consumer Reports and below average "overall manufacturing quality" scores from J.D. Power. Included on the list are two Land Rover SUVs, a Lincoln, a Saab and that aforementioned Touareg.
Actually, you're about $20K shy of the cheapest low-end models!
tidester, host
No offense intended, but I'm curious ... if you aren't excited about cars, just what are you doing on a message board dedicated solely to cars??
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Since when? Some of the most expensive makes are some of the most problematic. Rich people don't care - they have the butler take the car into the shop and drive one of their other expensive cars instead, lol.
Not sure about you but if I want a car thats going to fall apart I will get w Yugo. If I spend big bucks that car better work and work well.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Then explain these results from the most recent JD Power Dependibility Study: "Also, Land Rover, which ranked just above last-place Kia last year, was last on this year's list with a score of 438 problems per 100 vehicles. The gap between Land Rover and next-to-last Saab was 112 problems per 100 vehicles."
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think its due to successful marketing. Look at the early 70's, $35K Benzs were very reliable while $7,500 mainstream cars were lucky to get 100K miles. Now its just the opposite, a $60K benz needs loads of work to keep running and a $15K mainstream car gets a couple of hundred thousand miles with little repair work. As far as I am concerned there really is no excuse for that in luxury cars.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Also I have a feeling that those who pay $75+K for a car are more likely to notice some little things and complain about them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I supposed that's possible but do we really think that it's likely. If the engine is blowing up at a higher than average rate, it's not logical that the rest of the car would be above average quality wise.
"Also I have a feeling that those who pay $75+K for a car are more likely to notice some little things and complain about them"
I agree with you here. When an enthusiant buys a car, he's going to hold it to a higher standard. When my Dad brought home his new Buick, I saw 10 things that I wouldn't have accepted and he had a "well that's the way it is" mentality. I suppose if an enthusiant had bought that Century (ha ha), it would have ended up with 10 more reported problems.
No offence taken, I did say that. Please note that I said EXCITED, I do however, LIKE cars and have opinions about them.
As for what brought me here, it all started by reading threads about how people go about buying cars, like dealing with salespeople, strategies that buyers use, how to go about researching the car you want, etc. As you know, one thread splashes onto another sooo here I am. I also have opinions about these subjects and I hope they don't offend you.
Thanks for asking,
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I've just come to expect most of the regular posters here are those who have car magazine subscriptions, keep up on the latest cars, can identify cars on the road by their taillights, etc, etc. That kinda thing. Sure, others pop on the boards all the time, but they usually ask a question or get pricing and then depart.
It think it could be helpful to have more non-carnuts around ... although you may become one by hanging around too much.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S