The whole system is a farce. I just don't feel like I should have to lie so that a manager won't get upset
My take on those surveys, just be honest and fill them out. If the system is flawed against the sales person, then that's not your fault. The last time I did one of those surveys was when I bought my 06 Tundra and did put all 10's on the survey, but I do remember some questions that specifically stated they were for the business office and not the sales person. I fail to understand how ANYONE can be docked for what someone else in the business office does.
He didn't emphasize it's importance, just kind of mentioned it. OK, sure. I get the survey in the mail, and I fill it out all 10's except for a couple of questions I gave 9's
Same here onewiththepeople. My saleslady asked me to "be nice" on the survey when I bought a new Mazda in 2004, said this chuckling... a few other hints, nothing specific. I did the same thing as you... mostly 10's, a couple 9's , maybe an 8 or two. I thought I gave an excellent review, about a 97% which would be an "A". The first time or two I returned to the dealer she wasn't unfriendly, but she sure wasn't friendly either. After reading some posts here on Edmunds I realized I had "dogged" her. Oh well. Next time just spell it out for me lady... " JIP! I NEED ALL 10"S OR I FAIL...CAN YOU DELIVER FOR ME BIG DAWG?" :surprise:
Mack, I should have mentioned this earlier but I forgot.
I’m sure that larger than life animated post you made was intended to catch the eye of ‘you know who’ and get me in trouble but I didn’t read your post until after 8:30 AM when I had gotten to work.
Even if I would have read it shortly after you posted it (12:28 AM) she still wouldn’t have seen it because she went to bed early. You see, before I left for work yesterday, knowing it was one of her many does off, I loaded her up with so much housework that by the time I got home she was worn out.
She was so tired when I got home that I had to make dinner and wash the dishes sometimes I outsmart myself.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Don't think so. Although my opinion of them has improved, I just think there are better choices. I would take a Hyundai before I would take a Volkswagen or a couple of other brands though.
Welcome to the world of car sales and surveys. Most of the time the bad surveys are due to something that happened in the business office but yet the salespersons are the ones that are penalized. The system is hosed up but the manufacturers use it against the stores too. If service or sales is not 100% they withhold allocations of hot cars etc. and you know what they say. ---- rolls down hill. So no matter what we do, we get blamed for everything else. Mack
P.S. by the way, comments on surveys don't mean twiddly sh*t. Nobody reads them except us and they don't count for brownie points either. With Yota the surveys have to be "excellent" all the way on all aspects of the sale. Kind of reminds me when I was in Uncle Sam's canoe club and we had all this sailors that were 4.0 AND walked on water. Those were some flawed evaluation systems. If someone would get a 3.8 they would go ballistic. Now they have a 5.0 rating scale so only the creme of la creme is 5.0 and the rest can be 4.0. (GETS OFF SOAP BOX) Mack
If comments on surveys don't matter, they should stop putting them in there. Second, salespeople really should spell it out to the customer: all 10's no matter what or I'll get penalized. I would have preferred to know that up front, it would have made a difference.
If comments on surveys don't matter, they should stop putting them in there. Second, salespeople really should spell it out to the customer: all 10's no matter what or I'll get penalized. I would have preferred to know that up front, it would have made a difference.
Well said. From my office I can here what goes on at about 6 sales peoples desk. On a daily basis I hear some one give a weak presentation on the survey. Then listen to them [non-permissible content removed] about it when it comes in.
Our pay plan though is not tied to surveys but we still stay in the top 10%.
It was your salesperson's fault. He should have explained how the surveys are graded. I can't believe he actually called to chew you out afterwards that was about as unprofessional as anything I've heard of!
Although I maintain one of the highest scores in the store, I don't like the methods they use. They can be very unfair.
This is whats maddening. This is a copy of an actual survey we recieved. All I removed was the customer info. If the average person was to read this they would think that a fantastic job was done. In FMC's eyes this survey was not a good one.
Another thing that drives me crazy is this cust said that we were at least very good in all categories and excellent in many yet they when asked if they would reccomend us they answered maybe, maybe not :confuse:
Sales Questions Response 1 . Overall sales experience - Your Arrival 2A. Prompt welcome Excellent 2B. Given level of attention wanted Excellent 2C. Appearance of dealership facility Good Your Salesperson 3A. Knowledge of Ford vehicles Very Good 3B. Helping you find a vehicle Very Good 3C. Professional negotiation process Very Good 3D. Invites to buy without pressure Excellent 3E. Salesperson's courtesy Excellent 3F. Salesperson overall Very Good 3G. Test drive Yes Paying for Your New Vehicle 4A. Helping with best loan or lease option Excellent 4B. Professionally offered finance products Excellent 4C. Thorough contract detail explanation Excellent 4D. Time to complete paperwork Excellent 4E. Overall payment experience Excellent Taking Delivery of Your New Vehicle 5A. Vehicle clean on delivery Yes 5B. Vehicle in working order Yes 5C. Explained vehicle service process Yes 5D. Offer to schedule first maintenance Yes 5E. Reviewed delivery checklist Yes 5F. Full tank of fuel at delivery Yes 5G. Vehicle ready when promised Excellent 5H. Length of time to deliver Very Good 5I. Overall delivery process Very Good Dealership Follow-up and Concern Handling 6A. Follow-up satisfaction Yes 6B. Follow through on commitments Very Good 6C. Did you have any concerns? No 6D. Dealer knowledge of concerns - 6E. Satisfaction with concern resolution - 6F. Overall concern resolution - 7 . Recommend dealer as place to purchase Maybe Would, Maybe Not Sales Questions Response 8 . Vehicle quality Very Satisfied 9 . Recommend a Ford-Merc-Linc product Definitely Would 10 . First purchase/lease from this dealer? No 11 . Replace a Ford-Merc-Linc vehicle? Yes 12 . How was your vehicle paid for Cash only 13 . Gender Male 14 . Age 65-74 15 . Ethnic background White/Caucasian 16 . Are you the person indicated below - Comments Comments Mark here to not share responses Non-Confidential
I don't know if I can except to say that it was the 1950's in the South. As you may know, everything then centered around the White Protestant Male. The gay situation was just a few years ago. That tells me that things haven't improved much in the Boy Scouts.
In the '60's, my college roommate, who was Jewish, was not allowed to join a fraternity. The Anti-Jewish sentiment was so bad that he transferred to another college after our sophomore year. Sad.
The worst survey I ever got when I was in sales was from a customer I bent over backwards for. It was back when Ford was on the 1-10 scale and this Tent Peg gives me 1's across the board.
I catch him on a sales call and he tells me that his car is broke down and he needs a new one. I go through the standard questions and figure out he needs to be under $250 a month and wants a Taurus.
Back then you could lease a Taurus for $240 a month with $1300 down and it was about a $1300 deal.
So I tell him that he needs to give me a check for a $1000 and the title to his old sled and I will type up the paper work and bring it to him.
So now I have sold him the car over the phone, have all the paper work ready and am going to his house. He lives about 60 mile from the dealership so away I go with the lot attendant following so I can get back because the trade will need to be towed in.
We do the deal he loves the car, tells me about all the business he is going to send me, I am the best thing since sliced bread blah blah blah. He even fed me and my driver.
So a couple days later the tow truck driver goes to get the trade, while he is there he knocks over a small planter and his truck leaked oil on the guys drive way..
I had no idea this had happened till the survey comes back in and it is all 1's. I think the guy must have misunderstood that 1 did not mean I am #1. So I called him and he went ballistic on me over the phone.
It took me 3 months worth of good surveys to get my average back up.
If service or sales is not 100% they withhold allocations of hot cars etc.
Now I can see the manufacturer allocating the hottest cars in the most popular colors to the dealerships with the best surveys, sales or service. But to expect anything but 100% perfect on a survey isn't fair.
He proceeds to rip into me big-time. How dare I "dog" him on the survey!. This will cost me xxxxxdollars! I didn't get all 10's! A 9 is as good as a zero! They don't even read the written comments! After all I did for you! Do not come back to this dealership! On and on for 20 minutes...
20 minutes? :surprise: If I were you it wouldn't have gone 20 seconds, call me up at home and start yelling at me will get you a real quick hanged up on and the number blocked.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't have one handy but Toyota's survey looks about the same. Some of the questions are worded differently and there's a few extras like:
Please rate your salesperson excellent, good, fair, poor. Initial greeting: Appearance: Product selection: Considerate of your time: Product knowledge etc,
Negotiation: Considerate of your time:
On the final paperwork: Considerate of your time: Explained financing and leasing options: etc,
You notice a pattern here? The number one complaint from customers is that it takes too long to buy a car. Here's an article on Business Week about Toyota and customer satisfaction/service. link title :shades:
On surveys, my going-in position is that if I'm not pissed off or didn't have an orgasm, I've had an "average" experience. On a 9 or 10-point scale, that's a 5.
So, everything's a five unless it was better or worse than average. I work up or down from there on each question. Yeah, right. As I understand it, if people did it this way the entire automobile sales industry would cease to exist in 12.3 minutes -- everyone would vaporize.
So, we endure grade inflation at the car store -- firewall everything, regardless -- tens across the board.
Means a lot, right? Really gives useful feedback, right?
What am I missing? What is the point of this stupid exercise??
And, yes, I firewalled the store on the car I bought a couple of months ago, even though I had several "issues." This board guilted me into it.
Nope. He proceeds to rip into me big-time. How dare I "dog" him on the survey!. This will cost me xxxxxdollars! I didn't get all 10's! A 9 is as good as a zero! They don't even read the written comments! After all I did for you! Do not come back to this dealership! On and on for 20 minutes... I mean the guy was pissed....Well, so was I. WTF? I didn't intentionally rank on the dude. I had no idea they put so much weight on these surveys. I mean, cmon, to dock the guy his pay because of not all perfecxt 10's...
If this salesman was unprofessional enough to call you and act like this, then he deserved the low score and the loss of bonus income or whatever. Unfortunately you now see his true colors, too late to buy from someone else. Considering his actions, I would not feel guilty at all about what happened. For that matter, I believe I would have had a few choice words with the dealership heirarchy and with the manufacturer too. If nothing else came of it, they would surely know I was pissed.
We car freaks reading these forums know how important surveys can be -- the remaining 99.9% of America is clueless and couldn't care less. The average consumer shouldn't be expected to know either, unless the salesman is very explicit about how these things are graded. Seems like the dealer associations could demand some changes to what seems like a very unfair system. On second thought, it might be designed that way on purpose so the mfr. can stiff the dealer and the dealer can stiff the salesman. Hmmm.
On second thought, it might be designed that way on purpose so the mfr. can stiff the dealer and the dealer can stiff the salesman.
And herein lies the problem. As far as the manufacturer is concerned the “stiffer” the better. They get to take from everybody under the guise of being on the customer’s side. If the dealer doesn’t like it what are they going to do, stop selling cars so they can starve themselves to death trying to prove a point only to have the manufacturer pull their franchise that went defunct? I think if the dealers got together, like a union, the manufacturers would last longer than the dealers would and pretty soon the buyers would start to scream “where are all the new cars”. Then the manufacturers would turn the assembly lines back on and the process repeats itself.
So, we have to watch what we say; this site may be frozen out for a while.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That makes sense, as all their life they are trying to recognize shades of grey - plus they may take the survey as an honest question how the operations could be improved (I know I used to). If they take the survey as seriously as their job, the saleperson is screwed.
One saving grace may be that with current grade inflation today (everybody demanding B for just mere presence in the class), it may be easier to explain what the real survey intent is than in the past.
I think if the dealers got together, like a union, the manufacturers would last longer than the dealers would and pretty soon the buyers would start to scream “where are all the new cars”.
I agree with you here but I wasn't thinking quite that radical. I was thinking more of everyone making a big issue of the survey process at dealer meetings, auto shows, retreats, or wherever dealers and mfrs get together to talk turkey. Seems like folks who complain loudly and consistently will get results sooner or later; if you mumble and grumble under your breath and bend over then things will likely stay the same.
Toyota launched another new initiative a year ago to find out why its dealers don’t get repeat customers and why its scores in satisfaction surveys are low and what could be done as a remedy. Apparently, they haven’t answered the question yet
Everybody knows why - they just won't admit it or else would have to change system that "works". Until last quarter sales were up each year so why bother? They have superior product (at least until recently), low nominal margins for the retailers, and absurd sales volume goals. This must result in creating "turn and burn" culture. First do everything to make the sale - steal customer's keys, take his/her daughter hostage if you have to. Next, once sale is secured, use it as opening for more sales of low/no added value/high profit products. Mop&glo anyone? SET mastered that beyond reason. Lets look at Corolla in my local friendly SET dealer, shall we? Lets say it's a low-end $16K, about $1K markup over invoice. Lets say at this moment the only rebate is low interest financing for 810 Beacon score (pretty much nobody qualifies). Even at the sticker it wouldn't be such a bad deal, but wait - SET has a "special" just for you: preinstalled (and put it on Monroney sticker already) "Toyoguard" package - as low as $799 for your first oil change, paint sealant and rental car assistance if the vehicle stays in shop overnight - wow, what a deal! Is that everything? Oh no, it's just a beginning - we have $599-$799 "clerical/doc" fee. You know, it covers the paperwork we do, floorplan, all the other stuff, including $50 voluntary contribution for owner's son wedding next year... Then of course we add our own set of accessories, preinstalled on all cars (mere $999 for appearance package, $200 floor mats, etc.) and couple of more surprises. Of course you don't qualify for the special financing, with score of 760 all we can offer you is a bargain 11.9 APR.
Now our base $16K baloons to $18.5K+high interest for practically the same car without significant added value, before even taxes are collected. And that's how, ladies and gentlemen, that's how you lost your customer. Smart one walks away (or negotiates down and after ten rounds of back and forth settles for something decent), dumb, desperate, or cornered one will still buy but the moment they drive away, they vow to never come back unless they absolutely have to.
If I were in Toyota market, the mere presence of SET "value package" and dealer's fees is a two-three point hit on the survey - pretty much across the board. Add a slick guy (you know the pride of Deskmans of this world), and you work yourself from five point hole. It's as simple as that. Why would I still buy if I don't like them? Because I want the product and I have to buy somewhere - in my place I have no choice but go to SET and tolerate/negotiate all have their junk packages and fees or fly thousand miles. So you get the picture.
Now could Toyota change it? Of course. Will they? No way. Remember? The system "works" for them. Why would they change it? Not for me (or millions of others) to feel better about the experience. It's a living proof the product it basically everything.
Excellent post about SET. It amazes me to see the number of people who pay those bogus fees and add-ons. I do have 4 Toyotas in my household, one was bought used, but I was able to negotiate the BS fees and add-ons out of the deal on the other 3.
Speaking of surveys, I bought my 06 Tundra from a dealer that was about 45 miles away. My local Toyota dealer wouldn't deal and why would they with the limited inventory of Tundras they had at the time. Well I got an extra survey that seemed to indicate they wanted to know why I didn't buy from my local dealer. Keep in mind I had already sent in the first survey and gave the sales guy perfect scores as it was a pleasant experience.
None of the 3 Toyotas I bought new were purchased at my local dealer, 2 were bought at a dealer 10 miles away in 04 and as I said, the other at a dealer 45 miles away. However each time I did try to buy first at my local dealer, so I was well aware of their old school sales games.
I enjoyed filling out the second survey immensly. It didn't have answers like 1-5, but it had questions like "Why did I not buy at my local dealer" and the answers were like "check all that apply", high pressure sales, salesman not disclosing all fees, too high on price, etc, etc.
Because I want the product and I have to buy somewhere - in my place I have no choice but go to SET and tolerate/negotiate all have their junk packages and fees or fly thousand miles.
I never heard of this SET gimmick until I came to Edmunds, how would I know of it first hand since I live in the Burg area? Well out of their area of control. I can't believe people are so in love with Toyota's that they fall for this. I know I would fall in love with something else. Kinda like when you are in high school and the the most beautiful girl wouldn't even look at you twice; you found the next most beautiful girl and moved on with life.
You know, it covers the paperwork we do, floorplan, all the other stuff, including $50 voluntary contribution for owner's son wedding next year...
$50 ain't nothin. Can you imagine what the "contribution" would be if he was marrying off his daughter ?
Now could Toyota change it? Of course. Will they? No way. Remember? The system "works" for them.
You're right, it works because people let it work. :surprise:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
1. People know the product is good. 2. People see nominal price (MSRP or otherwise) that is good, even excellent factoring the quality reputation. 3. As we established already, average American math and reading comprehension is very low. 4.So when add-ons arrive, they are already committed and have low understanding of the added and marginal value concepts. There is no time or even desire for reevaluation - say even though Focus/Mazda/whatever is marginally lower quality, or so it is still widely believed, the price difference has just widened by the add-on margin. 5. To make it worse, large local dealers of other brands tend to match those practices. Honda is pretty much on the same plane, even without their distributor, even domestics have $500 fees. If you look hard enough, you may find a better domestic dealer (family-style operation, no/low fees charged, etc.).
Therefore, for local customer it seems they'll get hosed no matter where they go, so they still go to their local SET dealer - at least they get the product they want...
is very good to have. It's not anywhere fair IMO, but that's how it goes in the car business.
I just switched from Audi/Sonic to BMW/Auto Nation. It's better on a lot of counts, for instance, Audi wants to know if your salesperson has been in contact with you. To some customers, the 3 phone messages, 2 follow up emails, and a thank you card doesn't register as follow up. So one bad survey on a mini deal, means it would have made you more money if you had never sold that person a car.
Anyway, it sucks to be responsible for PDI, F&I, and detail.
In agreement about explaining the scoring to the customer. No salesperson should ever call a customer and complain about surveys. It's a crappy part of the business, and you just have to get used to it.
Let's talk a moment about those perfect "10" surveys, as they relate to teachers. It is highly unlikely that I would ever give a salesman a perfect score---or that I should. During the years that I taught school, an "A" ranged from 93-100, with 100 being an "A+". Having taught 7,000+ students during my career, only five students ever earned an "A+". As I used to tell my students, an average of 100 means that every test, quiz, project, homework assignment, classwork assignment, etc. must be PERFECT. I had many students who made "A's" but only five who made an "A+". Where are those five students today? One is a cardiologist, one is a brain surgeon, one is a federal judge, one is an Army general, and one is a Wall Street stock broker. The odds of being PERFECT in any field of endeavor are very slim.
Now, how many car salespersons deserve a PERFECT "10"? I am sure that out of the thousands of car salespersons, there are a few---perhaps a dozen. I have met some really neat salespersons, but I don't recall ever giving them a PERFECT score. You see, from the greeting to the test drive to the negotiations to the finance office to driving away in the car must all be PERFECT. Now, how many of us can honestly say that the experience was PERFECT? It was very good perhaps, but PERFECT?
Teachers have annual evaluations in order to have their contracts renewed. The ratings are similar to your car experience surveys. Though I was the Teacher of the Year nine times in 38 years, I only had ONE PERFECT evaluation. That PERFECT evaluation came during the year that I was State Teacher of the Year. Even then, I believe that the principal only awarded that to me because of my status. It would be extremely difficult for any teacher, or car salesperson, to be PERFECT.
Yes, I would agree that "teachers can be scary". Car salespersons can also be scary. We all have our "production" standards. If we didn't, we wouldn't keep our jobs.
is, our 99% costs us thousands of dollars a year. Let me know the next time a teacher gets docked in pay over parents views. I'm not talking about losing a job, I'm talking about losing money out of every paycheck, and you have little to 0 arbitration.
The idea here is that in years you were not graded perfect, you pay was not docked, your promotion was not denied, you were not put on probabation. Your score was an honest evaluation of your teaching services and score of "very good" was still considered exactly that.
However, when sales people don't get their "perfect" scores, manufacturers and owners alike tell them it can't be tolerated. In pretence of thriving for absolute excellence they use those surveys as a good pretext to take away any additional money they might have owed them.
I would dare to say the money has never been there at the first place, only a picture was waved in front of them just to make them work harder without reward. Same way Ivy Legue schools puts their assistant professors on tenure track with no intention of ever giving them tenure or law firms encouraging associates to apply for partnership without real intention of awarding one anyway.
It does happen to teachers as well. In those states where salaries are tied to Merit Pay, your survey or evaluation directly effects your pocketbook. In other states, your differentiated pay or local supplement to your salary can be withheld based on your performance. We will see more and more of this under the No Child Left Behind legislation. Teachers have now become accountable for the test scores of children.
Great! So is 90% score considered grounds for promotion or demotion of the teacher? In car sales it's the latter as anything below 10/10 is considered a failure ...
Yes, it is. A 90% rating won't get you promoted to assistant principal, principal, supervisor, director, etc. Without such promotions, you are frozen on the teacher pay scale. That pay scale is a great deal lower than the salary of a car salesman.
We will see more and more of this under the No Child Left Behind legislation. Teachers have now become accountable for the test scores of children.
Which is resulting in the same thing as our survey system. It is taking a good idea and making it ridiculous.
The test are dumbed down to ensure that as many people pass as possible.
My daughter gets A's in all her classes except Algebra, she has always struggled in math. Yet every year when they take gateway, etc test she always scores high in math. Why?? Because the test are dumbed down and the teachers teach for what is on the test not the overall subject matter.
Yes, it is. A 90% rating won't get you promoted to assistant principal, principal, supervisor, director, etc. Without such promotions, you are frozen on the teacher pay scale. That pay scale is a great deal lower than the salary of a car salesman.
A good car salesmen makes a good bit more then a teacher I will agree. That is probably equal to about 30% of the industry. So if you have 10 sales people there are 3 of them making more then a teacher.
IMO Teachers, LEO's, Firemen, and Soldiers should be in the top 15% of the highest paid professions.
In car sales it's the latter as anything below 10/10 is considered a failure ...
Who sets this standard? The dealer, The auto maker? If it was open heart surgery I would demand 10/10, but dealing with the public it will NEVER happen. The general public are a bunch of jerks for the most part and my perception of this grows every year.
Joel, that survey of "1's" was a terrible thing, especially when you consider that the tow truck driver was the cause. It is very unfair in any profession when fellow co-workers cause your rating to be smeared. I have seen co-workers steal each other's ideas and hard work. I have seen co-workers lie about each other in order to get promoted. We never know what someone in the company will do that comes back to us.
In defense of the tow truck driver, perhaps he didn't realize that the truck was leaking oil or that he knocked over a small planter. Still, it had a direct effect on your life as the person who sold the car. I can well imagine that it took some time to recoup from that survey.
Joel, you are a very perceptive parent. Good for you! Just like the car surveys, these academic tests are a farce. The teachers no longer teach the entire curriculum. They are pressured by principals and supervisors to teach only what will be on the test. How do they know what is on the test? They use testing prompts sent out by the state, plus copies of previous tests. It is becoming more and more difficult for the teachers to diagnose and actually teach to the child's weaknesses. Everyone is too busy teaching to the child's strengths in order to have a good school system rating around your state. Tennessee, Georgia, and North Carolina are especially bad about that approach.
Like you, many parents are beginning to see the real truth. I, for one, want good testing programs for children. No Child Left Behind is NOT the answer. We call it No School Left Standing. In my current classes, I encourage my new teachers to teach to a child's weaknesses. They look at me and say, "Please tell my principal that." Most teachers want to do a good job, but their hands are often tied. Like you, they want to keep their jobs. I hate to pressure them too much. I'm afraid that I may get some of them fired if I do. We desperately need some positive changes in education.
To the Hosts: Sorry to be so off topic. I just had to answer this concerned and good parent.
A 90% rating won't get you promoted to assistant principal, principal, supervisor, director, etc.
The Board of Education is state run. That being the case it's more who you know than what you know in terms of promotion. It's easy to overlook any type of rating when promoting as we all well know.
Joel, I had no idea that ANY car salesmen made the same as a teacher. You say around 30% make more? I always assumed that they ALL made more. Each time that I tried to recruit a car salesman into teaching, they would tell me that they made twice or three times that of a teacher. In North Carolina, not one of the leading states in teacher salaries, a veteran teacher with about 25 years experience would top out at about $50,000 per year. My new teachers only make about $27,000.
I'll tell you one thing. I had two retired car salesmen hired as teachers. They were terrific because they could "sell" the subject matter to the kids. I had to laugh though. They were mean as hell when it came to discipline. I had to warn them a few times not to get too aggressive. They wanted to punch out the smart asses. One of them quit, but the other one stayed on. He was such a jewel.
You are absolutely correct. Perhaps that is why we have so many problems in education. When I think of some of the people running the show, I wonder how the teachers and the children make it each day.
Comments
My take on those surveys, just be honest and fill them out. If the system is flawed against the sales person, then that's not your fault. The last time I did one of those surveys was when I bought my 06 Tundra and did put all 10's on the survey, but I do remember some questions that specifically stated they were for the business office and not the sales person. I fail to understand how ANYONE can be docked for what someone else in the business office does.
I get the survey in the mail, and I fill it out all 10's except for a couple of questions I gave 9's
Same here onewiththepeople. My saleslady asked me to "be nice" on the survey when I bought a new Mazda in 2004, said this chuckling... a few other hints, nothing specific. I did the same thing as you... mostly 10's, a couple 9's , maybe an 8 or two. I thought I gave an excellent review, about a 97% which would be an "A". The first time or two I returned to the dealer she wasn't unfriendly, but she sure wasn't friendly either. After reading some posts here on Edmunds I realized I had "dogged" her. Oh well. Next time just spell it out for me lady... " JIP! I NEED ALL 10"S OR I FAIL...CAN YOU DELIVER FOR ME BIG DAWG?" :surprise:
I’m sure that larger than life animated post you made was intended to catch the eye of ‘you know who’ and get me in trouble but I didn’t read your post until after 8:30 AM when I had gotten to work.
Even if I would have read it shortly after you posted it (12:28 AM) she still wouldn’t have seen it because she went to bed early. You see, before I left for work yesterday, knowing it was one of her many does off, I loaded her up with so much housework that by the time I got home she was worn out.
She was so tired when I got home that I had to make dinner and wash the dishes sometimes I outsmart myself.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Don't think so. Although my opinion of them has improved, I just think there are better choices. I would take a Hyundai before I would take a Volkswagen or a couple of other brands though.
OK folks you heard it first right here. That's a start.
There ain't no stoppin him now.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Mack
(GETS OFF SOAP BOX)
Mack
I shall refrain from making a comment.
Well said. From my office I can here what goes on at about 6 sales peoples desk. On a daily basis I hear some one give a weak presentation on the survey. Then listen to them [non-permissible content removed] about it when it comes in.
Our pay plan though is not tied to surveys but we still stay in the top 10%.
Although I maintain one of the highest scores in the store, I don't like the methods they use. They can be very unfair.
A nasty customer will sometimes take revenge too.
Another thing that drives me crazy is this cust said that we were at least very good in all categories and excellent in many yet they when asked if they would reccomend us they answered maybe, maybe not :confuse:
Sales Questions Response
1 . Overall sales experience -
Your Arrival
2A. Prompt welcome Excellent
2B. Given level of attention wanted Excellent
2C. Appearance of dealership facility Good
Your Salesperson
3A. Knowledge of Ford vehicles Very Good
3B. Helping you find a vehicle Very Good
3C. Professional negotiation process Very Good
3D. Invites to buy without pressure Excellent
3E. Salesperson's courtesy Excellent
3F. Salesperson overall Very Good
3G. Test drive Yes
Paying for Your New Vehicle
4A. Helping with best loan or lease option Excellent
4B. Professionally offered finance products Excellent
4C. Thorough contract detail explanation Excellent
4D. Time to complete paperwork Excellent
4E. Overall payment experience Excellent
Taking Delivery of Your New Vehicle
5A. Vehicle clean on delivery Yes
5B. Vehicle in working order Yes
5C. Explained vehicle service process Yes
5D. Offer to schedule first maintenance Yes
5E. Reviewed delivery checklist Yes
5F. Full tank of fuel at delivery Yes
5G. Vehicle ready when promised Excellent
5H. Length of time to deliver Very Good
5I. Overall delivery process Very Good
Dealership Follow-up and Concern Handling
6A. Follow-up satisfaction Yes
6B. Follow through on commitments Very Good
6C. Did you have any concerns? No
6D. Dealer knowledge of concerns -
6E. Satisfaction with concern resolution -
6F. Overall concern resolution -
7 . Recommend dealer as place to purchase Maybe Would, Maybe Not
Sales Questions Response
8 . Vehicle quality Very Satisfied
9 . Recommend a Ford-Merc-Linc product Definitely Would
10 . First purchase/lease from this dealer? No
11 . Replace a Ford-Merc-Linc vehicle? Yes
12 . How was your vehicle paid for Cash only
13 . Gender Male
14 . Age 65-74
15 . Ethnic background White/Caucasian
16 . Are you the person indicated below -
Comments Comments
Mark here to not share responses Non-Confidential
Also teachers can be scary.
It's because we remember you as a student! :P
I don't know if I can except to say that it was the 1950's in the South. As you may know, everything then centered around the White Protestant Male. The gay situation was just a few years ago. That tells me that things haven't improved much in the Boy Scouts.
In the '60's, my college roommate, who was Jewish, was not allowed to join a fraternity. The Anti-Jewish sentiment was so bad that he transferred to another college after our sophomore year. Sad.
I catch him on a sales call and he tells me that his car is broke down and he needs a new one. I go through the standard questions and figure out he needs to be under $250 a month and wants a Taurus.
Back then you could lease a Taurus for $240 a month with $1300 down and it was about a $1300 deal.
So I tell him that he needs to give me a check for a $1000 and the title to his old sled and I will type up the paper work and bring it to him.
So now I have sold him the car over the phone, have all the paper work ready and am going to his house. He lives about 60 mile from the dealership so away I go with the lot attendant following so I can get back because the trade will need to be towed in.
We do the deal he loves the car, tells me about all the business he is going to send me, I am the best thing since sliced bread blah blah blah. He even fed me and my driver.
So a couple days later the tow truck driver goes to get the trade, while he is there he knocks over a small planter and his truck leaked oil on the guys drive way..
I had no idea this had happened till the survey comes back in and it is all 1's. I think the guy must have misunderstood that 1 did not mean I am #1. So I called him and he went ballistic on me over the phone.
It took me 3 months worth of good surveys to get my average back up.
Now I can see the manufacturer allocating the hottest cars in the most popular colors to the dealerships with the best surveys, sales or service. But to expect anything but 100% perfect on a survey isn't fair.
As an owner of a Hyundai that has been more reliable than any of my friends Hondas or Toyotas the snickering in the background has died out.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
20 minutes? :surprise: If I were you it wouldn't have gone 20 seconds, call me up at home and start yelling at me will get you a real quick hanged up on and the number blocked.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Please rate your salesperson excellent, good, fair, poor.
Initial greeting:
Appearance:
Product selection:
Considerate of your time:
Product knowledge
etc,
Negotiation:
Considerate of your time:
On the final paperwork:
Considerate of your time:
Explained financing and leasing options:
etc,
You notice a pattern here? The number one complaint from customers is that it takes too long to buy a car. Here's an article on Business Week about Toyota and customer satisfaction/service.
link title
:shades:
On surveys, my going-in position is that if I'm not pissed off or didn't have an orgasm, I've had an "average" experience. On a 9 or 10-point scale, that's a 5.
So, everything's a five unless it was better or worse than average. I work up or down from there on each question. Yeah, right. As I understand it, if people did it this way the entire automobile sales industry would cease to exist in 12.3 minutes -- everyone would vaporize.
So, we endure grade inflation at the car store -- firewall everything, regardless -- tens across the board.
Means a lot, right? Really gives useful feedback, right?
What am I missing? What is the point of this stupid exercise??
And, yes, I firewalled the store on the car I bought a couple of months ago, even though I had several "issues." This board guilted me into it.
Gotta love it.
I loved your response to Frank, and the eventual outcome.
I mean the guy was pissed....Well, so was I. WTF? I didn't intentionally rank on the dude.
I had no idea they put so much weight on these surveys. I mean, cmon, to dock the guy his pay because of not all perfecxt 10's...
If this salesman was unprofessional enough to call you and act like this, then he deserved the low score and the loss of bonus income or whatever. Unfortunately you now see his true colors, too late to buy from someone else. Considering his actions, I would not feel guilty at all about what happened. For that matter, I believe I would have had a few choice words with the dealership heirarchy and with the manufacturer too. If nothing else came of it, they would surely know I was pissed.
We car freaks reading these forums know how important surveys can be -- the remaining 99.9% of America is clueless and couldn't care less. The average consumer shouldn't be expected to know either, unless the salesman is very explicit about how these things are graded. Seems like the dealer associations could demand some changes to what seems like a very unfair system. On second thought, it might be designed that way on purpose so the mfr. can stiff the dealer and the dealer can stiff the salesman. Hmmm.
surveys, etc. of this type is a very exact science. They know exactly what they are doing.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And herein lies the problem. As far as the manufacturer is concerned the “stiffer” the better. They get to take from everybody under the guise of being on the customer’s side. If the dealer doesn’t like it what are they going to do, stop selling cars so they can starve themselves to death trying to prove a point only to have the manufacturer pull their franchise that went defunct? I think if the dealers got together, like a union, the manufacturers would last longer than the dealers would and pretty soon the buyers would start to scream “where are all the new cars”. Then the manufacturers would turn the assembly lines back on and the process repeats itself.
So, we have to watch what we say; this site may be frozen out for a while.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That makes sense, as all their life they are trying to recognize shades of grey - plus they may take the survey as an honest question how the operations could be improved (I know I used to). If they take the survey as seriously as their job, the saleperson is screwed.
One saving grace may be that with current grade inflation today (everybody demanding B for just mere presence in the class), it may be easier to explain what the real survey intent is than in the past.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I agree with you here but I wasn't thinking quite that radical. I was thinking more of everyone making a big issue of the survey process at dealer meetings, auto shows, retreats, or wherever dealers and mfrs get together to talk turkey. Seems like folks who complain loudly and consistently will get results sooner or later; if you mumble and grumble under your breath and bend over then things will likely stay the same.
Everybody knows why - they just won't admit it or else would have to change system that "works". Until last quarter sales were up each year so why bother? They have superior product (at least until recently), low nominal margins for the retailers, and absurd sales volume goals. This must result in creating "turn and burn" culture. First do everything to make the sale - steal customer's keys, take his/her daughter hostage if you have to. Next, once sale is secured, use it as opening for more sales of low/no added value/high profit products. Mop&glo anyone? SET mastered that beyond reason. Lets look at Corolla in my local friendly SET dealer, shall we? Lets say it's a low-end $16K, about $1K markup over invoice. Lets say at this moment the only rebate is low interest financing for 810 Beacon score (pretty much nobody qualifies). Even at the sticker it wouldn't be such a bad deal, but wait - SET has a "special" just for you: preinstalled (and put it on Monroney sticker already) "Toyoguard" package - as low as $799 for your first oil change, paint sealant and rental car assistance if the vehicle stays in shop overnight - wow, what a deal! Is that everything? Oh no, it's just a beginning - we have $599-$799 "clerical/doc" fee. You know, it covers the paperwork we do, floorplan, all the other stuff, including $50 voluntary contribution for owner's son wedding next year... Then of course we add our own set of accessories, preinstalled on all cars (mere $999 for appearance package, $200 floor mats, etc.) and couple of more surprises. Of course you don't qualify for the special financing, with score of 760 all we can offer you is a bargain 11.9 APR.
Now our base $16K baloons to $18.5K+high interest for practically the same car without significant added value, before even taxes are collected. And that's how, ladies and gentlemen, that's how you lost your customer. Smart one walks away (or negotiates down and after ten rounds of back and forth settles for something decent), dumb, desperate, or cornered one will still buy but the moment they drive away, they vow to never come back unless they absolutely have to.
If I were in Toyota market, the mere presence of SET "value package" and dealer's fees is a two-three point hit on the survey - pretty much across the board. Add a slick guy (you know the pride of Deskmans of this world), and you work yourself from five point hole. It's as simple as that. Why would I still buy if I don't like them? Because I want the product and I have to buy somewhere - in my place I have no choice but go to SET and tolerate/negotiate all have their junk packages and fees or fly thousand miles. So you get the picture.
Now could Toyota change it? Of course. Will they? No way. Remember? The system "works" for them. Why would they change it? Not for me (or millions of others) to feel better about the experience. It's a living proof the product it basically everything.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Speaking of surveys, I bought my 06 Tundra from a dealer that was about 45 miles away. My local Toyota dealer wouldn't deal and why would they with the limited inventory of Tundras they had at the time. Well I got an extra survey that seemed to indicate they wanted to know why I didn't buy from my local dealer. Keep in mind I had already sent in the first survey and gave the sales guy perfect scores as it was a pleasant experience.
None of the 3 Toyotas I bought new were purchased at my local dealer, 2 were bought at a dealer 10 miles away in 04 and as I said, the other at a dealer 45 miles away. However each time I did try to buy first at my local dealer, so I was well aware of their old school sales games.
I enjoyed filling out the second survey immensly. It didn't have answers like 1-5, but it had questions like "Why did I not buy at my local dealer" and the answers were like "check all that apply", high pressure sales, salesman not disclosing all fees, too high on price, etc, etc.
I never heard of this SET gimmick until I came to Edmunds, how would I know of it first hand since I live in the Burg area? Well out of their area of control. I can't believe people are so in love with Toyota's that they fall for this. I know I would fall in love with something else. Kinda like when you are in high school and the the most beautiful girl wouldn't even look at you twice; you found the next most beautiful girl and moved on with life.
You know, it covers the paperwork we do, floorplan, all the other stuff, including $50 voluntary contribution for owner's son wedding next year...
$50 ain't nothin. Can you imagine what the "contribution" would be if he was marrying off his daughter ?
Now could Toyota change it? Of course. Will they? No way. Remember? The system "works" for them.
You're right, it works because people let it work. :surprise:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
1. People know the product is good.
2. People see nominal price (MSRP or otherwise) that is good, even excellent factoring the quality reputation.
3. As we established already, average American math and reading comprehension is very low.
4.So when add-ons arrive, they are already committed and have low understanding of the added and marginal value concepts. There is no time or even desire for reevaluation - say even though Focus/Mazda/whatever is marginally lower quality, or so it is still widely believed, the price difference has just widened by the add-on margin.
5. To make it worse, large local dealers of other brands tend to match those practices. Honda is pretty much on the same plane, even without their distributor, even domestics have $500 fees. If you look hard enough, you may find a better domestic dealer (family-style operation, no/low fees charged, etc.).
Therefore, for local customer it seems they'll get hosed no matter where they go, so they still go to their local SET dealer - at least they get the product they want...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I just switched from Audi/Sonic to BMW/Auto Nation. It's better on a lot of counts, for instance, Audi wants to know if your salesperson has been in contact with you. To some customers, the 3 phone messages, 2 follow up emails, and a thank you card doesn't register as follow up. So one bad survey on a mini deal, means it would have made you more money if you had never sold that person a car.
Anyway, it sucks to be responsible for PDI, F&I, and detail.
In agreement about explaining the scoring to the customer. No salesperson should ever call a customer and complain about surveys. It's a crappy part of the business, and you just have to get used to it.
Let's talk a moment about those perfect "10" surveys, as they relate to teachers. It is highly unlikely that I would ever give a salesman a perfect score---or that I should. During the years that I taught school, an "A" ranged from 93-100, with 100 being an "A+". Having taught 7,000+ students during my career, only five students ever earned an "A+". As I used to tell my students, an average of 100 means that every test, quiz, project, homework assignment, classwork assignment, etc. must be PERFECT. I had many students who made "A's" but only five who made an "A+". Where are those five students today? One is a cardiologist, one is a brain surgeon, one is a federal judge, one is an Army general, and one is a Wall Street stock broker. The odds of being PERFECT in any field of endeavor are very slim.
Now, how many car salespersons deserve a PERFECT "10"? I am sure that out of the thousands of car salespersons, there are a few---perhaps a dozen. I have met some really neat salespersons, but I don't recall ever giving them a PERFECT score. You see, from the greeting to the test drive to the negotiations to the finance office to driving away in the car must all be PERFECT. Now, how many of us can honestly say that the experience was PERFECT? It was very good perhaps, but PERFECT?
Teachers have annual evaluations in order to have their contracts renewed. The ratings are similar to your car experience surveys. Though I was the Teacher of the Year nine times in 38 years, I only had ONE PERFECT evaluation. That PERFECT evaluation came during the year that I was State Teacher of the Year. Even then, I believe that the principal only awarded that to me because of my status. It would be extremely difficult for any teacher, or car salesperson, to be PERFECT.
Yes, I would agree that "teachers can be scary". Car salespersons can also be scary. We all have our "production" standards. If we didn't, we wouldn't keep our jobs.
Richard
However, when sales people don't get their "perfect" scores, manufacturers and owners alike tell them it can't be tolerated. In pretence of thriving for absolute excellence they use those surveys as a good pretext to take away any additional money they might have owed them.
I would dare to say the money has never been there at the first place, only a picture was waved in front of them just to make them work harder without reward. Same way Ivy Legue schools puts their assistant professors on tenure track with no intention of ever giving them tenure or law firms encouraging associates to apply for partnership without real intention of awarding one anyway.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Richard
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Richard
Which is resulting in the same thing as our survey system. It is taking a good idea and making it ridiculous.
The test are dumbed down to ensure that as many people pass as possible.
My daughter gets A's in all her classes except Algebra, she has always struggled in math. Yet every year when they take gateway, etc test she always scores high in math. Why?? Because the test are dumbed down and the teachers teach for what is on the test not the overall subject matter.
A good car salesmen makes a good bit more then a teacher I will agree. That is probably equal to about 30% of the industry. So if you have 10 sales people there are 3 of them making more then a teacher.
IMO Teachers, LEO's, Firemen, and Soldiers should be in the top 15% of the highest paid professions.
Who sets this standard? The dealer, The auto maker?
If it was open heart surgery I would demand 10/10, but dealing with the public it will NEVER happen.
The general public are a bunch of jerks for the most part and my perception of this grows every year.
In defense of the tow truck driver, perhaps he didn't realize that the truck was leaking oil or that he knocked over a small planter. Still, it had a direct effect on your life as the person who sold the car. I can well imagine that it took some time to recoup from that survey.
Richard
Like you, many parents are beginning to see the real truth. I, for one, want good testing programs for children. No Child Left Behind is NOT the answer. We call it No School Left Standing. In my current classes, I encourage my new teachers to teach to a child's weaknesses. They look at me and say, "Please tell my principal that." Most teachers want to do a good job, but their hands are often tied. Like you, they want to keep their jobs. I hate to pressure them too much. I'm afraid that I may get some of them fired if I do. We desperately need some positive changes in education.
To the Hosts: Sorry to be so off topic. I just had to answer this concerned and good parent.
Richard
The Board of Education is state run. That being the case it's more who you know than what you know in terms of promotion. It's easy to overlook any type of rating when promoting as we all well know.
I'll tell you one thing. I had two retired car salesmen hired as teachers. They were terrific because they could "sell" the subject matter to the kids. I had to laugh though. They were mean as hell when it came to discipline. I had to warn them a few times not to get too aggressive. They wanted to punch out the smart asses.
Richard
Richard