No. No. The war isn't about oil. I remember the president saying so repeatedly.... Yeah.
I can't believe we got The Merry Minuet and National Brotherhood Week in here today! Great stuff. That Kingston Trio Hungry i album is one of the real foundations of my musical development.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
So what. To the driver it's irrelevant whether the price is 5% tax or 50% tax if either way it comes out to 8 bucks they got to dig out of their pocket for gas. Mack
Yeah, let's discuss the Panama Canal. I lived there for three years back in the late 70's. How would you like it if someone dug a big old ditch in your back yard? Mack :shades:
No. No. The war isn't about oil. I remember the president saying so repeatedly.... Yeah.
And I think the President said it’s all about Democracy, right?
I think the entire thing is to keep the Military Industrial Complex going and everything to do with oil. The Democracy thing just gives it that nice little twist to make it legitimate.
No one regrets bringing up the Merry Little Minuet more than me. The tune has been going around in my head ever since and I can’t make it stop. I fear this may go on for days. :sick:
I think the entire thing is to keep the Military Industrial Complex going and everything to do with oil. The Democracy thing just gives it that nice little twist to make it legitimate.
Exactly so.
It would actually be very interesting to go through the last 5 years and see the various revisions of why we got over there. The why on Afghanistan is easy. Iraq is a whole different matter.
Oh, I don't mind the Merry Minuet running through my head. It's scary how it holds up.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Help, Im trying to find the answer to this question..toyota clearly states that the delivery charges are figured into their MSRP however I just purchased a new prius and there is a delivery processing and handling fee from a Gulf states Toyota of 715 the same price that Toyota quotes as being in their price already..and my options were all installed at the distributor not the manufacture..I did not realize this until I was reading on edmounds..these are not delaer charges they are distributor charges..Whats up with the double pricing? or is this customary.
Looks like Gulf States uses same tactics like our beloved SET. Junk "options" and "mandatory" fees put on Monroney sticker like it came from the manufatcurer. The only way around them is to negotiate total OTD value and if they want "price" of $10 and "fee" of $21890, it's their prerogative.
Unforrtunately on Prius they pretty much can charge whatever they want - and call it whatever they want. The only thing it achieves is that "price" is put in front so stupid customer thinks they pay X and "fee" in the back and sneaked in at signing, at which point stupid customer is too committed to walk out. Firm OTD is pretty much the only way to combat that.
I'm, still in owe that Toyota allows them do it. Seems like they have such a strangle hold on the distribution (an ironclad 100-year contract or something like that) that there is nothing we can do short of buying something else or going 1000 miles to buy from other distributors.
and there is a delivery processing and handling fee from a Gulf states Toyota of 715 the same price that Toyota quotes as being in their price already.
..Whats up with the double pricing? or is this customary.
I’m not sure that you are going to like the answer but we’ve learned right here that this is your “reward” for buying a Toyota in the SET area (Southeastern Toyota).
As a new owner of one of these prized machines you'll have to tell us (yay or nay), if this "premium cost" is worth owning a Toyota in this area.
I have said all along that if I lived in the SET area I’d fall in love with another brand unless everyone else’s price is the same for the equivalent machine but that’s just me stating my opinion and everyone here knows what that is worth.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
In less popular models there is a lot "invoice/below invoice" advertising here (of course it's "invoice" plus fees), so at the end it's just a big scheme run by the owners to pay nothing to the salespeople and collect more to themselves (or to "motivate" their sales staff to sell even more aftermarket crap to offset all those losses). Bottom line - I think from customer point of view OTD pricing is often the same after all as long as you are not a total laydown and pay everything they come up with. The only place it may be truly hurting us in SET area is the models in demand, where SET crap is a "smart ADM" that people might not be paying otherwise if the pricing was pure MSRP, like in other regions/brands.
When I was checking out the 08 Camry, I found a few of them on the lot without that SET mark-up on the invoice. I found this strange since every dealer I've been too said it is on every one of them and comes to them that way. I told the salesman the charge for etching, soundproofing, undercoating and a free first oil change wasn't worth $715, though he did offer there was a 10 percent difference in road noise with the undercoating as opposed to being without it. I test drove two cars and didn't notice it in the one without it. I ended up going with an 08 Accord LX-P since I got a better price with more options as opposed to the LE Camry they wanted to sell me.
I test drove two cars and didn't notice it in the one without it.
Either your hot pants for a Toyota weren’t as hot as the salesman thought or you weren’t listening as intently as the salesman does when he points out the benefit/quietness of the undercoating as he does to other buyers or BOTH.
I ended up going with an 08 Accord LX-P since I got a better price with more options as opposed to the LE Camry they wanted to sell me.
You may have started a feud between ‘isell’ and ‘mack’ about this decision and the value of it. But, since it was your money, you oughta know.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I have to say Im not very happy about this bit of news..I still got a competitive price for the car at this time..but when and if I buy Toyota again, this will definately be something I will voice my opinion about..Thanks for the info..I knew there had to be an explanation.Im having my windows tinted tomorrow..I cant wait to have this little discussion with my salesman.
you where not charge double the $715 is the destination charge in gulf states, it is 55 dollars higher than if you had bought the car in in a non gulf state, calm down and be happy
Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price, excludes the Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee of $660 for Cars and $685 for Trucks, Vans and SUVs. (Historically, vehicle manufacturers and distributors have charged a separate fee for processing, handling and delivering vehicles to dealerships. Toyota's charge for these services is called the "Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee" and is based on the value of the processing, handling and delivery services Toyota provides as well as Toyota's overall pricing structure. Toyota may make a profit on the Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee.) Excludes taxes, license, title and available or regionally required equipment. The Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee in AL, AR, FL, GA, LA, MS, NC, OK, SC and TX will be higher.
The Delivery, Processing and Handling Fee in AL, AR, FL, GA, LA, MS, NC, OK, SC and TX will be higher.
I live in PA and I didn't pay a "delivery fee" when I bought in 05' and 06'.
They got me on the documentation fee though; it was at the state mandated maximum of $55. To me it is worth the $55 to process that paper work so I don't have to.
As for the "delivery fee", as I said earlier and previously earlier to that; I'd fall in love with another car.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The fee is higher in those states because Toyota distributes their cars through a company owned by the late Jim Moran. JM&A has exclusive rights to the distributorship in the southeastern states. Toyota was able to buy back rights from all of the other distributors in the United States. The relationship between JM&A and Toyota is so tight, that Moran has Japanese gardens built around the company headquarters.
They used to, not sure if they still do, install port packages on their cars. So you would see something like the "Southeast Edition" Camry. The distribution company would install mud guards, sunroofs, spoilers and pinstripes and stuff then sell it to dealers for a nice profit.
Your dealer has no control over the fee. They're not collecting on the extra money and frankly, I don't believe Toyota is either.
Already this month we have sold more cars then we sold all of last month and we were closed Sunday like always.
How many more cars you ask...
I have to count tomorrow to see exactly but of the top of my head it looks like three times as many then May. Hopefully the rest of the month will stay this busy but if it does I think we will run out of inventory.
Well, to be honest, either the Accord or Camry would have been fine since I'd been driving a paid for 1996 Chevy Beretta for a number of years. Having purchased two Odyssey vans in the past certainly helped get me a pretty good lease rate with AHFC for 36 months, which Toyota would have matched except it was a 39 month lease.
"so at the end it's just a big scheme run by the owners to pay nothing to the salespeople and collect more to themselves"
You and I must be working for the same guy! We give new cars away and then they ask you why your average gross was so low. We have pacman running the show. Pack used cars to the max, pack new cars to the max, so the only people making money are the sales manglers and general mangler. :mad:
"though he did offer there was a 10 percent difference in road noise with the undercoating as opposed to being without it."
Let me tell you guys a secret: (whispering) every new car sold in America is undercoated at the factory. The cars that are undercoated at the dealers are sprayed all over the chassis and in some cases they clog the drain holes in the doors and on the frame. This traps water which leads to premature rust. Caveat Emptor!
Having purchased two Odyssey vans in the past certainly helped get me a pretty good lease rate with AHFC for 36 months, which Toyota would have matched except it was a 39 month lease.
All things being equal, I assume you're not comparing a loaded 6 cyl Camry to a stripped down 4 cyl Accord, that additional 3 months of payments (acccording to the average monthly payment I've heard here) has to be a savings of at least $1000. Based on that you beat up that Toyota guy...BAD.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Don't you think having the use of the car for an extra three months is worth something?
Maybe I missed something in ‘bigbut’s’ post (what a handle, of all the one’s to choose from and he goes with that), :confuse: anyway, I didn’t see an Emotorcon in your post so I take it you’re serious about this.
‘bigbut’ said 36 months for a Honda lease vs. 39 for a Toyota lease at the same monthly payment. Since you will have payments for that Toyota for the additional 3 months that’s a savings. While in reality that might not be $1000 it could easily be hundreds of dollars. People have walked away from deals for less than that, me included. Even if you continue to lease the next time you’ll have saved something this time
Who knows, maybe he’ll just buy that beauty outright at the end of the lease, then he won’t have any payments. Not having car payments is when you really start to save some money but you give up driving around in newer sheet metal. Since ‘bigbut’ (damn, I’ll never get over that handle) said he had driven around in a paid up 96’ Beretta for a while, he already knows the value of not having car payments.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I just read an article today that quoted a study done by GM. They asked women who they would rather date: A guy with a sports car or a guy with a super-economy car.
9 out of ten chose the guy with the economy car.
I bet all those new buyers are running out to get a new econo-box so they can impress the girls with their big...er...milage!
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Less money spent on gas equates to more money to entertain or provide the (always getting in the way of the fun stuff) food – shelter – clothing.
NO, the Toyota.com page specifically states that the delivery, processing and handling fee is INCLUDED in the MSRP>Ill post more later as I talk to my dealership. No, the dealership does not make money on this,..but somebody is..
The nation's No. 3 automaker reported that overall U.S. sales were down 16 percent
Sales of light truck models, which include pickups, SUVs and so-called crossovers, tumbled more than 25%
That may turn out to be the trend that burns out the quickest in history!!??!!!?
"Our products and our dealers are getting us back in the car business," said a statement from Jim Farley, Ford group vice president of marketing. "We're only just beginning."
Now they just have to figure out how to make a buck on a car.
Hey I just want to confirm if the other sales guys have the same situations with lease buy outs...
Mack, Isell, BR, Joel, Moo, and everyone else,
Here in Mass. If someone buys out there lease they have to leave the vehicle here on the property for about 3 weeks before they can take delivery. So in essence they are with out a vehicle for 3 weeks.
The reason for this is... waiting for the title to transfer from the bank to the RMV to dealer.....
Is this how the transaction takes place in your states also or is Mass. just special... just curious :confuse:
The reason I ask is because I don't believe many "buyers/leasees" understand this transaction or lease buy outs.
That is odd...we do the buyout and they never have to leave the car at all. They just sign the paperwork and we apply for a new tag and its done. :confuse:
We have had to do that a couple of times in the past but have not done it recently. I guess someone some where made a policy or regulation change so the car doesn't have to sit anymore.
the handle is actually 'bigbutr', a handle I got from a college baseball coach who had my little brother on his team when I was working as a sports editor for a newspaper. (Hey, here comes big butter, shortened to bigbutr to fit the license plate.Sadly, the free extra pub he got didn't translate into a MLB career. He works at a bbq place in his hometown and plays guitar for a heavy metal band.) I was trying to compare apples to apples, if that's even possible when comparing Honda and Toyota. My choices were narrowed down to a 4-cylinder Camry LE and a 4-cylinder Accord LX. As stated before, having a 96 Beretta with (human) power windows, a 3-speed AT and no cruise, I didn't really have to step up much to improve my vehicle. I just wanted something much nicer with the standard safety features to protect my 5-year old and her friends for playdates. The only other time I drive it is to the post office and back, where I use a 96 S-10 extended cab for rural mail delivery. The problem I ran into at Toyota was a salesman trying to steer me into the 6-cylinder Camry or, if I wanted the 4-cylinder, a multitude of vehicles decked out with options I didn't really need or want to spend the extra money on. The closest they had was an LE with stability control, the JBL audio upgrade, dimming mirror and about $1000 of other dealer-added options that topped out over $23,000. They tried to deal, but when their first lease offer was $349 for 39 months with $1000 down, I walked. Three voicemails later brought it down to around $320 with $1500 down, but by that point I had already negotiated $297 a month for 36 months with $1000 down (sold the Beretta) for the LX-P. ($20,711 price for car, by the way). I looked at cars for almost a year before deciding to finally pull the trigger. In fact, though I'm happy with my choice, I've already started researching what I'd like to get in February 2011 when I turn the Accord in and hit the big 40. I'm thinking, maybe the BMW 335i convertible.
I am sincerely glad to hear that Joel. I have some family and friends in the biz so to speak. Sales of most any kind can be fantastic, but the famine times can be trying.
You are correct. The famine times suck. Here is the true state of where auto sales are at right now.
The Ford F-150 pickup truck has been dethroned as America's favorite vehicle for the first time since 1991 -- by at least two cars. According to preliminary sales figures released by automakers, Ford Motor Co. sold 42,973 F-series trucks in May, while Toyota Motor Corp. sold 52,826 Corollas and 51,291 Camrys. The last time a car outsold the F series was October 1991. Jim Farley, Ford group vice president for marketing and communications, said the F-series loss to Toyota's cars was a "significant development." "But it's not surprising, given the fuel price," Farley said. "That's just a sign of the times. I think May has been a watershed month."
there is so much doom and gloom being preached, that most people don't realize that the upscale brands [Audi, BMW, Mercedes] aren't really hurting for sales or business.
People come in thinking it's a down economy at my BMW store, only to find out that we are crushing last years sales, and aren't really interested in giving cars away.
Well, that makes sense. The only folks you'd be losing are ones that didn't belong there anyway. If one can really afford those cars he won't be dissuaded by gas prices.
Actually, four cars went ahead of the F series. Both the Civic (#1 overall) and Accord did better. They are still selling a boatload of F series but it's a change in the market no doubt.
Just wait for the oil bubble to pop.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Comments
Now, let's discuss the Panama Canal, among other things that were developed by the U.S. and later "nationalized."
Looks like Jimmy Carter II (Barak) is in a favorable position these days.
Oh boy.
I can't believe we got The Merry Minuet and National Brotherhood Week in here today! Great stuff. That Kingston Trio Hungry i album is one of the real foundations of my musical development.
Mack
Mack
Mack :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
And I think the President said it’s all about Democracy, right?
I think the entire thing is to keep the Military Industrial Complex going and everything to do with oil. The Democracy thing just gives it that nice little twist to make it legitimate.
No one regrets bringing up the Merry Little Minuet more than me. The tune has been going around in my head ever since and I can’t make it stop. I fear this may go on for days. :sick:
Exactly so.
It would actually be very interesting to go through the last 5 years and see the various revisions of why we got over there. The why on Afghanistan is easy. Iraq is a whole different matter.
Oh, I don't mind the Merry Minuet running through my head. It's scary how it holds up.
I don’t mind the tune that much either, it’s just that I can’t hear the other voices in my head over the music. :P
Now THAT I can relate to!
Unforrtunately on Prius they pretty much can charge whatever they want - and call it whatever they want. The only thing it achieves is that "price" is put in front so stupid customer thinks they pay X and "fee" in the back and sneaked in at signing, at which point stupid customer is too committed to walk out. Firm OTD is pretty much the only way to combat that.
I'm, still in owe that Toyota allows them do it. Seems like they have such a strangle hold on the distribution (an ironclad 100-year contract or something like that) that there is nothing we can do short of buying something else or going 1000 miles to buy from other distributors.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
..Whats up with the double pricing? or is this customary.
I’m not sure that you are going to like the answer but we’ve learned right here that this is your “reward” for buying a Toyota in the SET area (Southeastern Toyota).
As a new owner of one of these prized machines you'll have to tell us (yay or nay), if this "premium cost" is worth owning a Toyota in this area.
I have said all along that if I lived in the SET area I’d fall in love with another brand unless everyone else’s price is the same for the equivalent machine but that’s just me stating my opinion and everyone here knows what that is worth.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Either your hot pants for a Toyota weren’t as hot as the salesman thought or you weren’t listening as intently as the salesman does when he points out the benefit/quietness of the undercoating as he does to other buyers or BOTH.
I ended up going with an 08 Accord LX-P since I got a better price with more options as opposed to the LE Camry they wanted to sell me.
You may have started a feud between ‘isell’ and ‘mack’ about this decision and the value of it. But, since it was your money, you oughta know.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I live in PA and I didn't pay a "delivery fee" when I bought in 05' and 06'.
They got me on the documentation fee though; it was at the state mandated maximum of $55. To me it is worth the $55 to process that paper work so I don't have to.
As for the "delivery fee", as I said earlier and previously earlier to that; I'd fall in love with another car.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
They used to, not sure if they still do, install port packages on their cars. So you would see something like the "Southeast Edition" Camry. The distribution company would install mud guards, sunroofs, spoilers and pinstripes and stuff then sell it to dealers for a nice profit.
Your dealer has no control over the fee. They're not collecting on the extra money and frankly, I don't believe Toyota is either.
Already this month we have sold more cars then we sold all of last month and we were closed Sunday like always.
How many more cars you ask...
I have to count tomorrow to see exactly but of the top of my head it looks like three times as many then May. Hopefully the rest of the month will stay this busy but if it does I think we will run out of inventory.
Those middle men will always mess things up.
It must have been a benefit to Toyota in the beginning but now they sound like they'd like out of the deal.
Classic case of the tail wagging the dog. Now it's up to the buyers to change it since Toyota can't.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
You and I must be working for the same guy! We give new cars away and then they ask you why your average gross was so low. We have pacman running the show. Pack used cars to the max, pack new cars to the max, so the only people making money are the sales manglers and general mangler.
:mad:
Let me tell you guys a secret: (whispering) every new car sold in America is undercoated at the factory. The cars that are undercoated at the dealers are sprayed all over the chassis and in some cases they clog the drain holes in the doors and on the frame. This traps water which leads to premature rust. Caveat Emptor!
All things being equal, I assume you're not comparing a loaded 6 cyl Camry to a stripped down 4 cyl Accord, that additional 3 months of payments (acccording to the average monthly payment I've heard here) has to be a savings of at least $1000. Based on that you beat up that Toyota guy...BAD.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Don't you think having the use of the car for an extra three months is worth something?
Maybe I missed something in ‘bigbut’s’ post (what a handle, of all the one’s to choose from and he goes with that), :confuse: anyway, I didn’t see an Emotorcon in your post so I take it you’re serious about this.
‘bigbut’ said 36 months for a Honda lease vs. 39 for a Toyota lease at the same monthly payment. Since you will have payments for that Toyota for the additional 3 months that’s a savings. While in reality that might not be $1000 it could easily be hundreds of dollars. People have walked away from deals for less than that, me included. Even if you continue to lease the next time you’ll have saved something this time
Who knows, maybe he’ll just buy that beauty outright at the end of the lease, then he won’t have any payments. Not having car payments is when you really start to save some money but you give up driving around in newer sheet metal. Since ‘bigbut’ (damn, I’ll never get over that handle) said he had driven around in a paid up 96’ Beretta for a while, he already knows the value of not having car payments.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I just read an article today that quoted a study done by GM. They asked women who they would rather date: A guy with a sports car or a guy with a super-economy car.
9 out of ten chose the guy with the economy car.
I bet all those new buyers are running out to get a new econo-box so they can impress the girls with their big...er...milage!
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You’re right about somebody GETTING IT alright and that is the buyer.
Now for book keeping purposes it’s ready, SET, go !!!
I pick the one in the middle (or the middle man in your area, whatever he calls himself).
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
The nation's No. 3 automaker reported that overall U.S. sales were down 16 percent
Sales of light truck models, which include pickups, SUVs and so-called crossovers, tumbled more than 25%
That may turn out to be the trend that burns out the quickest in history!!??!!!?
"Our products and our dealers are getting us back in the car business," said a statement from Jim Farley, Ford group vice president of marketing. "We're only just beginning."
Now they just have to figure out how to make a buck on a car.
Mack, Isell, BR, Joel, Moo, and everyone else,
Here in Mass. If someone buys out there lease they have to leave the vehicle here on the property for about 3 weeks before they can take delivery. So in essence they are with out a vehicle for 3 weeks.
The reason for this is... waiting for the title to transfer from the bank to the RMV to dealer.....
Is this how the transaction takes place in your states also or is Mass. just special... just curious :confuse:
The reason I ask is because I don't believe many "buyers/leasees" understand this transaction or lease buy outs.
GP
GM down 27.5% overall, trucks down 37% and cars down 14%
Toyota down 4% overall, trucks down 12%
Maybe there are some openings in bicycle sales.
Sorry it was a slow month guys. Hopefully it will turn around in June.
I was trying to compare apples to apples, if that's even possible when comparing Honda and Toyota.
My choices were narrowed down to a 4-cylinder Camry LE and a 4-cylinder Accord LX. As stated before, having a 96 Beretta with (human) power windows, a 3-speed AT and no cruise, I didn't really have to step up much to improve my vehicle. I just wanted something much nicer with the standard safety features to protect my 5-year old and her friends for playdates. The only other time I drive it is to the post office and back, where I use a 96 S-10 extended cab for rural mail delivery.
The problem I ran into at Toyota was a salesman trying to steer me into the 6-cylinder Camry or, if I wanted the 4-cylinder, a multitude of vehicles decked out with options I didn't really need or want to spend the extra money on. The closest they had was an LE with stability control, the JBL audio upgrade, dimming mirror and about $1000 of other dealer-added options that topped out over $23,000. They tried to deal, but when their first lease offer was $349 for 39 months with $1000 down, I walked. Three voicemails later brought it down to around $320 with $1500 down, but by that point I had already negotiated $297 a month for 36 months with $1000 down (sold the Beretta) for the LX-P. ($20,711 price for car, by the way).
I looked at cars for almost a year before deciding to finally pull the trigger. In fact, though I'm happy with my choice, I've already started researching what I'd like to get in February 2011 when I turn the Accord in and hit the big 40.
I'm thinking, maybe the BMW 335i convertible.
If this is hard times then I will take them year around.
The Ford F-150 pickup truck has been dethroned as America's favorite vehicle for the first time since 1991 -- by at least two cars.
According to preliminary sales figures released by automakers, Ford Motor Co. sold 42,973 F-series trucks in May, while Toyota Motor Corp. sold 52,826 Corollas and 51,291 Camrys.
The last time a car outsold the F series was October 1991.
Jim Farley, Ford group vice president for marketing and communications, said the F-series loss to Toyota's cars was a "significant development."
"But it's not surprising, given the fuel price," Farley said. "That's just a sign of the times. I think May has been a watershed month."
People come in thinking it's a down economy at my BMW store, only to find out that we are crushing last years sales, and aren't really interested in giving cars away.
Actually, four cars went ahead of the F series. Both the Civic (#1 overall) and Accord did better. They are still selling a boatload of F series but it's a change in the market no doubt.
Just wait for the oil bubble to pop.