I once made the same suggestion to our nine high school principals. They nearly laughed me out of the room. Unfortunately, the superintendent laughed the loudest.
Speaking of wrecks, one of our salesguys had a Ram Quad Cab that got t-boned at about 70km/h (45mph) and the side windows didn't even break.
I still don't mind Hondas as I think they're very well made cars, but i like the variety that Chrysler Dodge jeep offers for pretty much any price point.
I get bored really easily with certain products that's why I left Nissan after 6 months (all their cars seemed bland to me) even though I didn't mind their SUVs and trucks.
"...I can pick good qualities in pretty much any vehicle..."
You made an excellent point. I'm sure that there are several convertibles that are better than the Sebring Touring. Still, it is a full size convertible which I need with my height, and it gets good gas mileage---27mpg for me on city and road average. The only two problems that I notice are: 1. The brake dust is bad. I have to clean the tires more often. 2. Now and then, the engine will "jump" while sitting at a traffic light. I've heard other owners mention this "jumping". Other than that, we've had no trouble in the year that we have owned it.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize it. :shades: You probably told us and I didn't recognize the fact because of your unique lingo when describing cars. I'm not being critical. The language is colorful but, as a consumer, I don't always follow it.
Now, tell me this---and be honest. Do you really like the Chrysler products, or is this just deskman making a buck off of ups?
BTW, stay out of the boat cabin. Your wife deserves better than what you might "catch".
i loved chrysler products up until the benz junk started to come out. the germans raped and robbed chrysler .
in 10 years MB took the most profitable car company in the world that had the most cash in the bank and reduced it to a sub par player.( yes mack 10 years ago chrysler had more money in the bank than toyota)
I hope once the fires are put out in auburn hills that chrysler will return to the top tier of design and product .
I want to clear up exactly how I feel about added fees and charges. They are becoming much more common throughout the marketplace. They show up with retailers, online vendors, airlines, various service providers, contractors, and as we have been discussing, car dealers. I guess I'm like most folks in that this annoys me, but I hope you all understand that I really do not buy into the thinking that car dealers and sales people are just out to rip me off. They are just trying to run a business as best they can and make a buck doing so. With these fees it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what the effect on my wallet really is and comparing alternatives to make what I think is the best choice for me. It gets a little tiring.
I guess it comes down to how the fee is sold. As a consumer, I really have no problem with any fee if I am confident that the fee represents some fair compensation for added value, benefit, or convenience to me. For instance, I buy a car, I'm responsible for titling and registering that car, not the dealer. Sure, dealers do this a lot, but that's really not their business, but they may assume a middleman-type role. The dealer, so long as I agree and give them authority to do so, takes care of that for me and charges a fee for that convenience, and also the experience of having done so much more often than me. I really don't have much of a problem with that. I have received a clear benefit and the dealer made a little extra dough. I might object to the amount of the fee, but the reasoning for the fee garners no real objection. I do appreciate any business that might offer a similar added benefit at no additional charge to me.
If the fee is sold as being necessary to cover some normal and customary cost or overhead that the business has, that does bother me quite a bit. Every business has costs and overhead associated with conducting the business. The business offers a product or service for sale to generate revenue. Overhead is covered out of the the revenue generated and hopefully there is something left over to feed the kids or take the significant other out to dinner. Suggest to me that I am expected to pay an added fee in order to cover any overhead costs that are normal and customary in running the business, and I start to feel resistant. Overhead is the business' concern, not mine. If the revenue generated by selling the product or service is not sufficient to cover the normal and customary overhead that is a legitimate business problem, but don't ask me, the customer, to fix that. Rethink the prices for the product or service or reduce the costs somehow.
For instance, paperwork. The preparation of paperwork is a part of selling cars. It is normal and customary. True, paperwork will be different for different transactions, but paperwork is just a part of conducting the business. (btw - the fact that the details of every sale are different flies in the face of the position that every customer must be charged the same fee amount to process the sale. I'm paying cash with no trade, why should I pay the same fee amount as some other guy who has an oddball trade and presents challenging credit?) Likewise preparing the car. Every car has to be prepared for sale, some more than others. It is just a part of the business of selling cars. Let's agree on price of the car that will be sufficient to cover the costs associated with that. I will be a much more content customer. The VADA brochure broadly mentioned the fee might cover things like assistance, guidance, and/or advice provided to the customer throughout the transaction. That really struck me. Why in the world should any customer pay an additional fee because they received these services from dealer personnel, especially when such service ultimately culminated in a sale?
As to the regulation of such fees. From what I have read, I am led to believe that states are much more concerned about disclosure than anything else. The state is interested in avoiding the so called hidden or surprise fees and that customers aren't arbitrarily gouged. That is beneficial to both the dealer and the customer. Even states that ask dealers to register the amount of the fee they charge with some state authority, I would guess do so as some measure to assure that the disclosure is in fact occurring, not as some attempt to establish uniform amounts. Establishing uniform fee amounts may be the motivation, I am just saying I find that a little strange. I also have some difficulty swallowing that the states are trying to avoid a flood of discrimination lawsuits. I just guess they are trying to avoid a flood of customers pissed off by surprise fees, so they want everything upfront and above board. I admit that is just my opinion and I could be wrong. I do wonder just how common these discrimination lawsuits really are. States that cap the fees are just being intrusive. If I am in business I don't want the state to tell me what I can charge my customers. Leave that between me and my customers.
Anyway, I suppose added fees are here to stay and they will become more common. These fees are more frequently being attributed to overhead and costs of doing business, not just with car dealers, but all over. Doesn't mean we have to like them, or that we will not try to avoid them.
I really do like everyone I have talked with on this forum. I hope I haven't offended anyone or come off as a pesk. I just like to pick things apart sometimes. If you actually read all this, thanks.
Ya know, that kind of candor is much more appreciated by me. Still might not get me to agree with the fee , but it is appreciated.
I do hope that areas of the market that are struggling turn around soon. Not sure I buy all the gloom that is prevalent, but certainly there are some parts that are hurting. I'm really rooting for Chrysler.
plymouth i made huge money with until the [non-permissible content removed] put a slow death on it,eagle was tuff .talons held gross but everything else was a give away.
i had a plum crazy 71 road runner that i changed the script on the rear to say plum hot
Yeah I know. I guess I just would have cashed out the equity. Cerberus isn't known for selling off pieces though. Nardelli seems to be working toward a smaller, more nimble company, at least streamlined.
yes i have c/j/d/dt . what they dont know about deskman motors in western canada? they sure know me in windsor
i was the # minivan dealer in the world for 20 years. the local windsor c.a.w. rented jason's :shades: for a private party for me when i sold my 50,000 minivan.
Aren't shop materials sometimes billed on repair work what they're supposed to be paying for in the cost of their services and use of their shop to work on my car?
If I go to an attorney, does he charge me for cost of looking up legal information at Lexis-Nexis? No! That's what he's being paid for already.
Sorry to disagree with you deskman. 10 years ago Toyota was more fluid than anyone. They could have bought out GM if they wanted to. The article was on Forbes or Business week, don't remember which one. It also listed Toyota as the most admired company that year. Mack
"If I go to an attorney, does he charge me for cost of looking up legal information at Lexis-Nexis? No! That's what he's being paid for already."
Actually, most law firms will bill a client for Lexis/Nexis charges in addition to their hourly rates. If you're a big client you can usually get it waived by telling them you don't pay for their overhead (kind of like a dealer processing fee).
While I've got my lawyer hat on - I'm General Counsel for a distributor (not in the auto industry) - I've got a question. It's absolutely illegal for a distributor to agree with a manufacturer on a minimum price that the distributor can charge an end customer. Hence the phrase Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price. (A distributor can agree on a maximum, but not a minimum.) So how does Saturn do it? Are Saturn dealerships owned by GM?
A fee for doing business is something I should not pay. If the government and manufactor require you to fill out certain forms, and they both do this, this is part of the business of selling cars. You can't legally complete the sale to me of a car without providing these forms. This is not my problem, nor something I should pay for, above the price you think you need to sell a car and make some money.
Give me the Manufactor's Statement of Origin (MSO) and sales documents and by golly, I can drive to the tag office and pay my state taxes and tag taxes. Don't charge me an inflated fee to do this.
What make of drums do you use when gigging? and what snare do you use in concert.?
Mack p.s. if you need a Toyota to carry your instruments I am the expert around here on Yotas! (just to stay on topic)
Hey Mack, I actually gig with a Pacific drum kit (entry level line by DW) that I bought new for under $500 - I put Jack DeJohnette line Aquarian heads on them and they sound like a kit worth ten times that amount! I usually use a Yamaha 13" concert snare with Remo Fiberskyn heads - great response for "Bolero" and similar soft music, but with ample power for Sousa marches as well.
and now, to stay on topic - I already have a Toyota. It's a 96 Corolla with 193K miles and still purrs like the day I bought it (used from my now ex brother-in-law...he wanted to get rid of it at 63K because it was "too old". That was over 6 years ago!)
Love my Toyota! Although truthfully, the new Corolla does not impress me like my 96 does. If Toyota would move the speedometer on the Yaris where it belongs, I'd consider that more strongly over the 'rolla. I like the Camry, but my wife thought it was a bit too cavernous, so our most recent new car purchase was an '07 Elantra Limited, which I must say is a fantastic car in every respect.
I once made the same suggestion to our nine high school principals. They nearly laughed me out of the room. Unfortunately, the superintendent laughed the loudest.
We wear gowns and degree hoods at our graduation and the whole faculty processes in with the graduating seniors - it's a great time, AND our principal is the master of graduating two hundred plus kids in UNDER one hour!
...and, to stay on topic, many people drive cars to this event :shades:
Also, you might have him ask the dealer if he will match the Friends discount price without having to go through the paperwork of processing a control number.
It’s now a done deal, well almost. He picks up his T&C on Thursday night.
Like I said in an earlier post son #1 and his wife were going to drive both the ODY and T&C before deciding on what to buy and the T&C won but not by much. He thought the Ody drove more like a car but liked the options on the T&C better and when comparing price, option/option, this is where the T&C came out on top. Plus he didn’t like the attitude of the Honda sales guy who he had gone to first.
He paid $27,150 for the T&C after the rebate so that is pretty close to the $26,942 you mentioned. Since they have to do a dealer trade to get the Blue color they finally decided on (they were originally going to get the Red Crystal, a $225 adder, which the dealer had in stock, but since their 02’ Caravan is red they decided to get something that looked like a new car) he felt that was a good deal considering they have to go get the car. Therefore, there was no need to bother you but he very much appreciated your offer to help.
The part that floored me was that they gave him $2,950 for his 02’ Caravan. The initial offer was $2,675 but we all know there is negotiating involved. A funny thing about the final offer of $2,950 is that he wanted an even $3000 but when the sales guy went to the desk the boss said, “make it $2,925 and not a penny more instead of the $2,675, we’re real close on this deal as it is” but the salesman said on his way back to the negotiating table he stopped and scratched out the $2,925 and made it $2,950 (maybe he’s thinking ahead to the survey ). So, with the price for the new van and what he got for his 02’ Caravan with 110K miles, they are satisfied. I’m satisfied too because they shouldn’t have any problems when we go to the beach the middle of July.
Again, thanks for your offer to help. Glad we didn’t have to bother you.
I hope Edmunds doesn’t raise my dues because of the personal help that was offered. :surprise:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That is the reason it was sold as a merger not a takeover.once the deal was done the truth came out. a guppy (MB) swallowed a whale (Chrysler).
Chrysler was the most profitable per unit and had the quickest turnaround from paper to metal of any car manufacturer . these are just facts i have taking from automotive news. i think they would know a little more about the auto side of the business.
toyota as a whole may have been bigger and richer at the time(i dont thinks so in 90s the camry was the only sales leader in the toyota portfolio) but that includes non automotive holdings.
Comments
I went deep sea fishing on Friday.... All I caught was some dog fish and the sunburn the color of a Maine Lobster.... my face looked like this
GP
I may never leave the cabin :surprise:
Just bring plenty of money (preferable ones) and I'm sure you won't have to. :P
I once made the same suggestion to our nine high school principals. They nearly laughed me out of the room. Unfortunately, the superintendent laughed the loudest.
Richard
Actually swtiched my dad from a his GMC Safari to a Ram a few months ago..
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
take them to the honda body shop to look at some wreck hondas :sick: then show them the wrecks in the body shop at the pentastar store.
I still don't mind Hondas as I think they're very well made cars, but i like the variety that Chrysler Dodge jeep offers for pretty much any price point.
I get bored really easily with certain products that's why I left Nissan after 6 months (all their cars seemed bland to me) even though I didn't mind their SUVs and trucks.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
You made an excellent point. I'm sure that there are several convertibles that are better than the Sebring Touring. Still, it is a full size convertible which I need with my height, and it gets good gas mileage---27mpg for me on city and road average. The only two problems that I notice are: 1. The brake dust is bad. I have to clean the tires more often. 2. Now and then, the engine will "jump" while sitting at a traffic light. I've heard other owners mention this "jumping". Other than that, we've had no trouble in the year that we have owned it.
Richard
LOL!!! Now that was funny!
Richard
I'm sorry. I didn't realize it. :shades: You probably told us and I didn't recognize the fact because of your unique lingo when describing cars. I'm not being critical. The language is colorful but, as a consumer, I don't always follow it.
Now, tell me this---and be honest. Do you really like the Chrysler products, or is this just deskman making a buck off of ups?
BTW, stay out of the boat cabin. Your wife deserves better than what you might "catch".
Richard
So your going to let them raise your mastpole?
GP
in 10 years MB took the most profitable car company in the world that had the most cash in the bank and reduced it to a sub par player.( yes mack 10 years ago chrysler had more money in the bank than toyota)
I hope once the fires are put out in auburn hills that chrysler will return to the top tier of design and product .
she is dutch so she can deal with it. in my house bl0%$obs ain't cheating :surprise:
we race forza 2 ,grid,project gotham 4, gran turismo 5 and formula 1 when things get slow.
I guess it comes down to how the fee is sold. As a consumer, I really have no problem with any fee if I am confident that the fee represents some fair compensation for added value, benefit, or convenience to me. For instance, I buy a car, I'm responsible for titling and registering that car, not the dealer. Sure, dealers do this a lot, but that's really not their business, but they may assume a middleman-type role. The dealer, so long as I agree and give them authority to do so, takes care of that for me and charges a fee for that convenience, and also the experience of having done so much more often than me. I really don't have much of a problem with that. I have received a clear benefit and the dealer made a little extra dough. I might object to the amount of the fee, but the reasoning for the fee garners no real objection. I do appreciate any business that might offer a similar added benefit at no additional charge to me.
If the fee is sold as being necessary to cover some normal and customary cost or overhead that the business has, that does bother me quite a bit. Every business has costs and overhead associated with conducting the business. The business offers a product or service for sale to generate revenue. Overhead is covered out of the the revenue generated and hopefully there is something left over to feed the kids or take the significant other out to dinner. Suggest to me that I am expected to pay an added fee in order to cover any overhead costs that are normal and customary in running the business, and I start to feel resistant. Overhead is the business' concern, not mine. If the revenue generated by selling the product or service is not sufficient to cover the normal and customary overhead that is a legitimate business problem, but don't ask me, the customer, to fix that. Rethink the prices for the product or service or reduce the costs somehow.
For instance, paperwork. The preparation of paperwork is a part of selling cars. It is normal and customary. True, paperwork will be different for different transactions, but paperwork is just a part of conducting the business. (btw - the fact that the details of every sale are different flies in the face of the position that every customer must be charged the same fee amount to process the sale. I'm paying cash with no trade, why should I pay the same fee amount as some other guy who has an oddball trade and presents challenging credit?) Likewise preparing the car. Every car has to be prepared for sale, some more than others. It is just a part of the business of selling cars. Let's agree on price of the car that will be sufficient to cover the costs associated with that. I will be a much more content customer. The VADA brochure broadly mentioned the fee might cover things like assistance, guidance, and/or advice provided to the customer throughout the transaction. That really struck me. Why in the world should any customer pay an additional fee because they received these services from dealer personnel, especially when such service ultimately culminated in a sale?
As to the regulation of such fees. From what I have read, I am led to believe that states are much more concerned about disclosure than anything else. The state is interested in avoiding the so called hidden or surprise fees and that customers aren't arbitrarily gouged. That is beneficial to both the dealer and the customer. Even states that ask dealers to register the amount of the fee they charge with some state authority, I would guess do so as some measure to assure that the disclosure is in fact occurring, not as some attempt to establish uniform amounts. Establishing uniform fee amounts may be the motivation, I am just saying I find that a little strange. I also have some difficulty swallowing that the states are trying to avoid a flood of discrimination lawsuits. I just guess they are trying to avoid a flood of customers pissed off by surprise fees, so they want everything upfront and above board. I admit that is just my opinion and I could be wrong. I do wonder just how common these discrimination lawsuits really are. States that cap the fees are just being intrusive. If I am in business I don't want the state to tell me what I can charge my customers. Leave that between me and my customers.
Anyway, I suppose added fees are here to stay and they will become more common. These fees are more frequently being attributed to overhead and costs of doing business, not just with car dealers, but all over. Doesn't mean we have to like them, or that we will not try to avoid them.
I really do like everyone I have talked with on this forum. I hope I haven't offended anyone or come off as a pesk. I just like to pick things apart sometimes. If you actually read all this, thanks.
at my store i have lost money on the new car sales dept every month since feb.
Used i have been making a ton but my profit goes back into the Ncd to balance out the loss.
anyone want to buy a 29k invoice msrp of 33XXX ram for 16000 ?
I do hope that areas of the market that are struggling turn around soon. Not sure I buy all the gloom that is prevalent, but certainly there are some parts that are hurting. I'm really rooting for Chrysler.
every company that has owned jeep has bite the dust. ( i wonder what kind of pact that commie roosevelt signed with the devil)
JEEP the curse that has lingered since ww two.
r.i.p. kiaser,nash,willys,american rambler,amc. am i missing any?
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
i had a plum crazy 71 road runner that i changed the script on the rear to say plum hot
wish i still had that car
but Cerberus didn't ask me
Wrangler buyers are a very loyal as most have owned them before (or still own one).
We're aslo doing very well with Grand Cherokee Diesels.
Commanders, Compasses, and Liberties are a bit slow right now.
Even though Patriots and Compasses are nearly identical underneath the sheetmetal, Patriots outsell COmpasses about 20:1
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
have you seen how quick they are dualing c/j with dodge/dodge truck to make a 4 pack?
One answer: Ceramic Brake Pads.
Which Sebring do you have? 2.4 / 2.7/ 3.5? Limited or Touring ?
I will send you a link I use to buy it cheap and free shipping to boot.
I wish we had a oil burner in the grand or the commander.
Does your dealer sell only Chrysler and Jeep or Dodge as well? Here in Vancouver every Mopar dealer is Chrysler Dodge Jeep and Dodge Trucks in one.
We're also doing well with the new Journey,
Commanders, Aspens, Durangos.... we try not to stock any right now.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
i was the # minivan dealer in the world for 20 years. the local windsor c.a.w. rented jason's :shades: for a private party for me when i sold my 50,000 minivan.
If I go to an attorney, does he charge me for cost of looking up legal information at Lexis-Nexis? No! That's what he's being paid for already.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Benz = junk I should know i have owned enough of them.
Thank god for ex wives,they think they are getting one over on you when they damand to keep the merc when you split.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
The ones i loved and wish i kept
cosworth 16v 190 very fun
E500 built by porsche very fast
450sel 6.9 (dads car) a tiger tank
Mack
Dang deskman, I didn't think you were a switch hitter! :shades:
Mack
Actually, most law firms will bill a client for Lexis/Nexis charges in addition to their hourly rates. If you're a big client you can usually get it waived by telling them you don't pay for their overhead (kind of like a dealer processing fee).
While I've got my lawyer hat on - I'm General Counsel for a distributor (not in the auto industry) - I've got a question. It's absolutely illegal for a distributor to agree with a manufacturer on a minimum price that the distributor can charge an end customer. Hence the phrase Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price. (A distributor can agree on a maximum, but not a minimum.) So how does Saturn do it? Are Saturn dealerships owned by GM?
Mack
A fee for doing business is something I should not pay. If the government and manufactor require you to fill out certain forms, and they both do this, this is part of the business of selling cars. You can't legally complete the sale to me of a car without providing these forms. This is not my problem, nor something I should pay for, above the price you think you need to sell a car and make some money.
Give me the Manufactor's Statement of Origin (MSO) and sales documents and by golly, I can drive to the tag office and pay my state taxes and tag taxes. Don't charge me an inflated fee to do this.
Mack
p.s. if you need a Toyota to carry your instruments I am the expert around here on Yotas! (just to stay on topic)
Hey Mack, I actually gig with a Pacific drum kit (entry level line by DW) that I bought new for under $500 - I put Jack DeJohnette line Aquarian heads on them and they sound like a kit worth ten times that amount!
I usually use a Yamaha 13" concert snare with Remo Fiberskyn heads - great response for "Bolero" and similar soft music, but with ample power for Sousa marches as well.
and now, to stay on topic - I already have a Toyota. It's a 96 Corolla with 193K miles and still purrs like the day I bought it (used from my now ex brother-in-law...he wanted to get rid of it at 63K because it was "too old". That was over 6 years ago!)
Love my Toyota! Although truthfully, the new Corolla does not impress me like my 96 does. If Toyota would move the speedometer on the Yaris where it belongs, I'd consider that more strongly over the 'rolla. I like the Camry, but my wife thought it was a bit too cavernous, so our most recent new car purchase was an '07 Elantra Limited, which I must say is a fantastic car in every respect.
Have a great day. everyone!
Now, THAT'S just too funny! :P
I once made the same suggestion to our nine high school principals. They nearly laughed me out of the room. Unfortunately, the superintendent laughed the loudest.
We wear gowns and degree hoods at our graduation and the whole faculty processes in with the graduating seniors - it's a great time, AND our principal is the master of graduating two hundred plus kids in UNDER one hour!
...and, to stay on topic, many people drive cars to this event :shades:
It’s now a done deal, well almost. He picks up his T&C on Thursday night.
Like I said in an earlier post son #1 and his wife were going to drive both the ODY and T&C before deciding on what to buy and the T&C won but not by much. He thought the Ody drove more like a car but liked the options on the T&C better and when comparing price, option/option, this is where the T&C came out on top. Plus he didn’t like the attitude of the Honda sales guy who he had gone to first.
He paid $27,150 for the T&C after the rebate so that is pretty close to the $26,942 you mentioned. Since they have to do a dealer trade to get the Blue color they finally decided on (they were originally going to get the Red Crystal, a $225 adder, which the dealer had in stock, but since their 02’ Caravan is red they decided to get something that looked like a new car) he felt that was a good deal considering they have to go get the car. Therefore, there was no need to bother you but he very much appreciated your offer to help.
The part that floored me was that they gave him $2,950 for his 02’ Caravan. The initial offer was $2,675 but we all know there is negotiating involved. A funny thing about the final offer of $2,950 is that he wanted an even $3000 but when the sales guy went to the desk the boss said, “make it $2,925 and not a penny more instead of the $2,675, we’re real close on this deal as it is” but the salesman said on his way back to the negotiating table he stopped and scratched out the $2,925 and made it $2,950 (maybe he’s thinking ahead to the survey
Again, thanks for your offer to help. Glad we didn’t have to bother you.
I hope Edmunds doesn’t raise my dues because of the personal help that was offered. :surprise:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That is the reason it was sold as a merger not a takeover.once the deal was done the truth came out. a guppy (MB) swallowed a whale (Chrysler).
Chrysler was the most profitable per unit and had the quickest turnaround from paper to metal of any car manufacturer . these are just facts i have taking from automotive news. i think they would know a little more about the auto side of the business.
toyota as a whole may have been bigger and richer at the time(i dont thinks so in 90s the camry was the only sales leader in the toyota portfolio) but that includes non automotive holdings.