joel....I'm very fearful of "gov't as shareholder". You'd very possibly end up with companies that were run by gov'ts with the names of Yugo, Lada and Skoda. Plus, you could say that the rank and file are now employees of the Fed. Just what we'd need, more Fed employees.
I do agree it costs more to let them fail, than to bail them out. But, there's been a lot of fat in the factories and halls of GM, Ford, and even Chrysler for way too long.
Just looking at GM, how many iterations of the Malibu are really viable? How about Chevy trucks vs GMC trucks?
Ford isn't in much better shape. is Mercury really needed? Volvo?
After the hatchet job Daimler did on Chrysler (and carried on by Cerebus), what's left? Challenger? Jeep? Ram trucks?
Point of it all, yes, I believe we have to bail out the Detroit automakers. But, they have to put forth a viable pay back plan. That should include UAW shedding a good portion of its members, restructure the contract that's already in place. Cut dealerships, brands and white collar employees.
The bailout shouldn't come for free, either. There should be a payback period...say 5 years....with interest.
Don't forget that Toyota and Honda also employ U.S. workers. Expect a squawk from them.
It's going to be painful, for certain. Even the more recent low gas prices aren't going to dig them out of this hole.
I don't hear anyone proposing any of these painful remedies. I don't see any way around it, though. The onus of responsibility should be on the automakers...not waiting for Congress to just haphazzardly throw money at them. Unless the automakers come up with a plan that addresses all of the above, then I'm not so certain we should be willing to help, either.
New 07's. How does that happen? What are they worth? Chrysler does have excess inventory.
Well, they (the left over 07s) kinda missed their boat, and since their biological clock is ticking, all compatible suitors (buyers) flock to the younger 09s :P
I've been in the car biz for 5 years, after getting laid off from a "secure" union job I had for 7 years before that.
During my time working I realized that no job is secure these days, and the only thing you can do to have a competitive advantage is to know and learn as much as possible that you can apply to your career advancement.
My previous Sales Manager told me: There is no such thing as luck. What luck really is, it's when preparedenss and opportunity meet.
Won't other companies come in and take up the slack?
Thats exactly what will happen, other companies will take up the slack. All those people who buy GM cars are not all of a sudden stop buying cars if GM disappears. They will buy something else and those companies will produce more cars, hire more workers and buy more parts and material.
Yeah GM going bye bye would hurt in the short run but in the long run it would be better than a bail out.
All a bail out will do is reward poor performance and that will hurt us in the long run.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Thats exactly what will happen, other companies will take up the slack.
While I agree with that, I don’t think it will happen fast enough.
I really dislike the idea of “bail outs” but I’d rather save our economy than teach the Big 3 a lesson. I will say, that before we give them a “bail out” a damn good plan better be in place and this must include the elimination of bonus’s for exec’s who destroy companies and the auto union has to play a big part in this too; really everyone who has anything to do with the auto industry has to do their part.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
We both waited couple of days - no calls, no "did you reconsider". Today they came back with 7 grand for my WRX. Now - this is an offer - a low one, but at least a real one. Now this is a level they actually made it possible to counter without being ridiculously higher. Six grand was a "highway robbery in daylight" type of thing. I think they totally misread me - they thought I fell in love and already sent new car party invitations - couldn't be further from truth. They probabaly also thought if they focus all attention on new car discount, I will simply give away my old car. What I said was "yes, I like it, yes I buy it, but only if such and such" - they simply did not get to that part.
I committed if they put $7700 we sign papers on Saturday afternoon - and I mean that - it is my real price. It's exactly half way between my originally imagined value of $8500 and their second offer. Will see where it will go. I feel at that level I would get the most of the money, with a small concession on the trade. Deal comes of off skinny for them, but won't get totally clubbed. Let's see if they take it.
Why do I post it here? Because ultimately I'm selling my car. Since VIP program made selling and pricing STI easy and quick, it's now about me being able to convince them they can live with collecting a few hundreds for sale and the investment of $7700 into WRX will ultimately pay off
joel0622 wrote: "But the stark fact remains: Absent a bailout, GM dies, and with it much of manufacturing in America. Congress needs to do the right thing -- now " Trying not to shock joel but I agree with you completely. I am a fiscal conservative, but those who are playing stance in this situation are not being honest . Has the UAW not been a killer to Detroit ? No question and has there been any solution to abbrogate the influence ? And do not the three have financing units and is the financing of banks more sacred ? Paulson's an idiot . Let me contradict what I said previously. It's a brave new world and I am suffering under the collective wisdom of our legislative bodies. At this portion of the economic cycle I really don't wish to see three million added to the unemployed payrolls should the three go under. Schadenfreude, a German term that reflects on joy at the misery of others. Ok besides 3 million added to the unemployment rolls, 8, 000 parts suppliers that not only supply the three but Honda, Toyota, Nissan. Remember those domestic factories ? Should the big 3 , ok 2 1/2 fail the auto parts suppliers would be next leading to a dominance of Chinese parts after market .Hint to congess : quit calling it a bail out and style it as a loan Second hint, you are so shameful your opinion shouldn't really count.
Just read a little story on AOL that in England if you buy one Dodge Avenger you receive another for FREE. I think I would be too ashamed of doing that to such an obviously distressed dealer to take advantage of the deal.
It can't be that bad here in America, can it? :sick:
I actually considered the Avenger at one time. You could get it with a 235hp engine and I kinda liked it's looks (better than it's twin Sebring). Then I read the reviews which trashed it for it's handling and interior.
It's sad to see Chrysler trying to get by with non-competitive products. The playing field has changed. People are demanding much more for 25K these days.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
The A4 cabriolet is not a hardtop, but it is available in Canada
Thanks...I like the A4 very much and hopefully next time around they'll keep the Quattro but add a hardtop. I like the hardtop idea and 96% of my driving is with the top up....but oh what a feeling having the top down...and all with just the press of one button.
quit calling it a bail out and style it as a loan Second hint, you are so shameful your opinion shouldn't really count.
I am a real amateur when it comes to finances, however, I am not sure burning through more millions of dollars will save the big 3. They are making cars people are not buying unfortunately.
Same happened to the radio and TV manufacturers in America about 40 or 50 years ago. We thought it was the end of the world when we saw names like RCA, G.E., Admiral, and Zenith disappear from the U.S., to be manufactured in Japan. Somehow, we survived. Timex had a fair bit of the market in the U.S. at one time, then the Japanese started making great watches at reasonable prices (Seiko). Then the Swiss came back with more refined watches at higher prices. Same in auto industry, Japan is making a quality product at a reasonable price. Europeans make a more refined product for people willing to pay for it. Where does that leave the big 3. The Big 3 have had at least 20 to 30 years to see what was happening, and they kept building bigger and heavier cars.....and though the quality is close, most models miss the mark on style, engineering, reliability, refinement etc. and in any case people are buying overseas manufacturer's cars. You can plow more money into the system, but that's just life support if no one is buying.
Once again, I don't want to see it happen and I am not a financial wizard....but I think that is how it will play out.
Please explain how a loan is much different? Seems to me you will be a preferred creditor but how much will be left at the end of the day.....inventory and some old car plants?
Car sales are down, across the board (save for a blip with Subie). So, if you've got 20%-30% of people who are now out of the market, that would have been in the market, those people are going nowhere to but another car.
"Right sizing" for the current market is what's needed to happen. For GM, that means fewer models, fewer plants, fewer employees, fewer dealerships. Do I believe that a Malibu is substantially a worse car than an Accord, or Camry? No. It's just that there are fewer willing to buy in that segment.
UAW and GM went hand in hand down the path to where they are today. They both must suffer the painful cuts that need to happen. Call it a bailout, call it a loan, call it whatever you want. But, closing down factories, jettisoning employees, closing dealerships has a cost associated with it. That's where the focus should be. Instead of pouring development money into Saab, or Hummer, or Pontiac, they can focus on what's selling, as opposed to spinning cycles on what's not.
You can't just take a large sector of the economy and let it die. That'll just make a bad situation, worse.
. So the dealerships next move will probably be wanting to split the difference
Yes, my mistake. I meant they would come up to $7200 and I think they will stop there. They came up from 6 so I don't think they want to go much past 7. Just a guess
And since I am being corrected how did dino001 become dinosaur? :confuse:
And since I am being corrected how did dino001 become dinosaur?
When I see "dino", I think of dinosaur. "dino011" must be an old guy... like jmonroe or oldfarmer. :P
Got $500-$1,000 "Customer Loyalty" certificate from Mazda today. Applies to all new vehicles in their lineup... except the 3. I like the 3 and the newly remodeled 6. I'll keep waiting until they make me an offer I can't refuse.
None of us want to see the Big 3 go under. My problem is with the wording of these bail out documents. For example, the banks weren't told that the bail out money HAD to be used to resume lending to the consumers. It was only suggested. How dumb is that? Now, according to National Public Radio and a few other trusted media outlets, some banks are saying that they will just save the money for a rainy day! Others are going to use the money for capital improvements or to buy up smaller banks. Why was it not specifically stated that the money had to be used to stimulate lending to consumers? As Duke said, "Paulson is an idiot." He reversed the original plea to Congress that the money was needed to buy the bad assets of banks. Now he is going to buy stock in the banks. Can he deceive Congress and the American people like this? Perhaps, depending upon the wording of the legislation. The writers of legislation and bail out packages need to be explicit as to what is going to happen with $700 B of taxpayers money!
Here is another troubling thought. The banks, auto companies, consumers with bad mortgages, cities, and towns all want bail out monies. Just how much is there to go around? Just how much tax burden can Americans take on in these troubled times? While I certainly don't have any answers, I want my government to be specific as to what can be done with my tax dollars. All of you guys here have your careers on the line. Your representatives need to be told that and more. No one died and made Paulson or Congress king. The sooner that they know this, the better. Keep the faith.
While I certainly don't have any answers, I want my government to be specific as to what can be done with my tax dollars.
Agree with all of your concerns Richard. Another thing I did not get was McCain plan to give people money so they could make their mortgage payments. The people who get in over their heads get the help, while those who saved and make their payments get nothing. I like the new plan of stretching the time line to make the payments manageable.....but bailing out people who get in over their heads - I don't think so. :mad:
Got $500-$1,000 "Customer Loyalty" certificate from Mazda today.
Well, once again it depends on what they give you for your trade-in. $500 to $1000 off is a nice advertising teaser but to me it's just blah blah blah to get me to come in and be seduced (which I could be maybe but not for a Mazda - lol).
"...must be an old guy...like jmonroe or oldfarmer..."
Hey, don't lump me in with those old coots! I'll have you know that when I was in Florida I had to show ID to get a beer and I was denied the "senior discount" at the zoo. I feel just like a little kid.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Got $500-$1,000 "Customer Loyalty" certificate from Mazda today. Applies to all new vehicles in their lineup... except the 3. I like the 3 and the newly remodeled 6. I'll keep waiting until they make me an offer I can't refuse.
Hey Jip, I'll sell you my Mazdaspeed 3; Mazda's already paid for a LF strut and a turbocharger- and the car doesn't even have 27,000 miles on the clock. By the time the 60,000 mile Powertrain warranty runs out you may have a totally rebuilt car- maybe even a third turbo!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
We already have a mechanism in place that will allow a company to step back, take a breath, reorganize and make a fresh start. It is called bankruptcy. The way we are going though the only one to go bankrupt is going to be the U.S.A.
This madness is like giving mulligans on the PGA Tour. It is just not right.
Perfectly understood. It's all OK, albeit slightly disapointing after certain signals. I don't take that personally - just don't think they made all the effort or perhaps somewhat misjudged my commitment to that new piece of iron. I may be wrong - and it may be only six grand. Only time will tell.
Why is it that Dealers always have to be the bad ones here? I am just wonedring once again why it's always the dealers fault? They didn't give me best price? Not enoughh for my trade?
It seems everyones attitude is to beat the poor dealer.... We have dealerships closing down all accross the country. Consumers want below hold back and above KBB on trade.... It just cracks me up....
Than if you say something like well people who pay more will get better treatment and that is wrong..... I just don't get how a industry (car biz) that is probably surveyed more than anything else.... A business that has to have certain standards... And no one seems happy about the car business....
Everyone likes to tell the story of how they beat a dealer.... Or brag about a tachnique.....
Why is it that Dealers always have to be the bad ones here?
There are many fine dealers and many excellent car sales people too. I don't know of too many that are not good. But, one thing that gives dealers a bad reputation from the start is that the start with a high price on the new car, and low price on your trade. Then you negotiate back and forth and get a better price. This makes the customer very distrustful from the start. Then one dealer can sell the same car for less than another dealer. This begs the question, "Who is scamming who?"
If you got the best possible price on the new car and trade in from the beginning there wouldn't be so much mistrust.
We pick up the story when I countered $7700. They did not bite - sent email back with this and that, which was semi-credible (in short- soft market and one car just like mine but one year newer sitting on their lot already dicounted from "the books") - told me to go to Carmax - so I went. Guess what - that was a little shocker... THEY OFFERED $5500 :surprise: :surprise:
At this moment it was clear $6K was not "stupid", just somewhat low. I could probably try to grind a couple of hundred over that 7, but I'm not really a grinder - hate pressure, hate going into "unreasonable" area. I define grinder as somebody who will ask for more regardless how much you conceide, not somebody who asks for more in first couple of iterations... I called It's time to close it. I called them back and asked for 15% off on accessories and I buy it with 7 grand trade. They bit after twenty minutes. I was already on my way when the guy called.
So here it is guys: 2% under invoice minus $2500 bonus ($36K MSRP to $30.7K including junk fees), plus zero percent interest, 7 grand on my trade ('03 WRX) and 15% off accessories (one time deal - I come to their store, make a list and buy 15% off their shelf price). I think I did well - good deal, fantastic car.
Of course most credit goes to VIP program, but I still held my own (but adjusted for actual market) on the trade. We were all nice and cheerful - no hard feelings on lost bonuses or low trades, etc. We all move on to final stage. Just a quick decline of their mop&glo - I was actually surpised they did not press as much for anything, even warranty or GAP (I cashed out the trade, as zero percent financing makes it viable to use the cash some place else). Just one "menu" presentation and one "no". The guy almost run away after my pass - I almost thought I had to chase him to tell him why (he didn't want to know). I guess they already recognized "strongwilled" mindset at this point.
Small presentation and I sold my car (by taking delivery of new one )
Hey Jip, I'll sell you my Mazdaspeed 3; Mazda's already paid for a LF strut and a turbocharger- and the car doesn't even have 27,000 miles on the clock. By the time the 60,000 mile Powertrain warranty runs out you may have a totally rebuilt car- maybe even a third turbo!
Thanks. But, I'd prefer to buy from a little old lady who never had it out of 3rd gear. With a name like "roadburner", well... you get the point.
I think I'll still wait for that offer I can't refuse. What would that be? Well, GM has had invoice minus rebate prices. I read today Ford will be going with employee pricing minus rebates. So, I would like employee pricing PLUS rebate money PLUS 0% financing over 5 years PLUS waive the doc. fees. With all the bailout money the Big 3 will be getting, only seems fair.
edited: Sounds like a good deal "dino011". Congrats on the new wheels.
My story was NOT about "beating" the dealer. It was more about my feelings when trying to sell my car to a dealer - just as your stories may be about some guy who wants tripple net, cashback, zero percent even if all ads clearly state it's one or another and then still demands free oil changes for three years. Yeah - that guys is all about beating you. I was about getting new car at low price, selling my car at relatively acceptable to me.
I don't think in terms of beating anybody. It was certainly not about any technique - especially that my new car price was taken care by an external force (VIP). I don't have a technique. I had a fantasy - if X,Y,Z happens, I will buy. X & Y happened, Z took some time and adjustments for both parties. And fantasy (almost) happened, with a little help from my mind to imagine a new one.
Ultimately they moved new piece of expensive iron, gained one also. We all shook hands and expressed appreciation. Isn't that what it is about Mr. GP? One day you have a guy buying MSRP, another day it's VIP. Kind of cuts both ways, doesn't it?
I rented a Mazda 3 recently and I liked the room inside and the visibility. Very nice for a small car. I was kind of disappointed with the performance though. With the 3's "fun to drive" reputation I expected more. The 2.3L is nice off the line but runs out too early for me. I couldn't really test out the handling as I kept hearing an unpleasant noise from where my wife was sitting every time I tried to have some fun with it.
Now the Speed3 might be a different story.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
We have dealerships closing down all accross the country.
Oh, sure, play the sympathy card! :P
But seriously, if you look at the "Prices Paid" topics you will find that for every buyer who claims he or she got a raw deal you'll find a half dozen others bragging about the great deal they got and another three or four wanting others to tell them whether they got a good deal or not. Things just can't be all that bad if you are unable to judge for yourself whether you got creamed.
Good ending to your story Dino. Glad it worked out. Sometimes customers have to be sent away elsewhere and get a shocker (like you did at CarMax) to realize that the deal was good to begin with.
Good thing you came back and did the deal with them after the time they put in.
Most people would go to another dealer to "save face" especially if it comes to better price or trade.
Carmax - so I went. Guess what - that was a little shocker... THEY OFFERED $5500
Good story Dino and I think you did well. I thought they would settle at $7200 but with your 15% it is about right.
However, being not too trusting about car dealerships, I wonder if they know Carmax gives low trade-in prices. Maybe they send everyone to Carmax knowing they pay under book value?
Sounds good, dino; I've found out Carmax gives you a reasonable idea how much your car is worth. That said, I once sold a car to a private party for twice what Carmax offered, but that almost never happens...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I think the important thing is to play it cool while in the middle, not take rejection personally, be firm when possible, but also open to adjustments if necessary. I have never been afraid to admit being wrong in anything in my life, I was not about to start now.
At the end make a decision one way or another and then no resentments, ifs or buts. Funny, I had "one free oil change" temptation singing in my mind the entire time we were completing paperwork , but my word was more important to me. It would have been OK to have asked for it BEFORE I committed, but at this moment I already had said if X happened then I pick it up. They lived up to the if, so I had to live to mine. Many consumers create those resentments exactly at moments like those. I have no problem with hard negotiations, but when things are decided, it's done and now we take a step back and look what we got. If it's not OK to salesepeople to pull a fast one later (like adding an undisclosed earlier fee, changing terms of financing or similar and such), it's not OK to keep demanding floor mats or oil change if there was a commitment of buying when meeting certain conditions.
15% off of accessories is ok. I think that's what Sears is advertising this weekend.
Personally, I would've asked for employee pricing. Being the good customer that you are I'm sure the SM would've been more than happy to make those purchases for you. You know where the salesperson goes the extra yard for a great customer. :P
Personally, I would've asked for employee pricing.
Huh? :confuse: :confuse:
What employee pricing? Did you read it at all? I got the car for what's call VIP pricing, which is invoice minus 2% minus all incentives - here 2500 dealer bonus. Subaru does that if you belong to certain organizations they support. Hard to imagine employee pricing is any different/better. 15% off on accessories was the final touch - last piece of the much larger puzzle.
15% off on accessories was the final touch - last piece of the much larger puzzle.
You make this purchase sound like Quantum physics. That's why I commented that I would've asked for employee pricing on the accessories which depending on what part could be up to 40%. Since everyone shook hands and thought it was a great deal you would think that they would be more than happy to give you employee pricing.
As an example, when I purchased an Acura at employee pricing (manufacture not dealer employee) I asked the SM if I could get employee discount on a spoiler which ran $800 at the time. He said dang you got the car at employee price you don't expect me to give away parts too? No problem. Made a phone call to a friend at American Honda and had the spoiler sent in two days for $500 shipping included.
Comments
I do agree it costs more to let them fail, than to bail them out. But, there's been a lot of fat in the factories and halls of GM, Ford, and even Chrysler for way too long.
Just looking at GM, how many iterations of the Malibu are really viable? How about Chevy trucks vs GMC trucks?
Ford isn't in much better shape. is Mercury really needed? Volvo?
After the hatchet job Daimler did on Chrysler (and carried on by Cerebus), what's left? Challenger? Jeep? Ram trucks?
Point of it all, yes, I believe we have to bail out the Detroit automakers. But, they have to put forth a viable pay back plan. That should include UAW shedding a good portion of its members, restructure the contract that's already in place. Cut dealerships, brands and white collar employees.
The bailout shouldn't come for free, either. There should be a payback period...say 5 years....with interest.
Don't forget that Toyota and Honda also employ U.S. workers. Expect a squawk from them.
It's going to be painful, for certain. Even the more recent low gas prices aren't going to dig them out of this hole.
I don't hear anyone proposing any of these painful remedies. I don't see any way around it, though. The onus of responsibility should be on the automakers...not waiting for Congress to just haphazzardly throw money at them. Unless the automakers come up with a plan that addresses all of the above, then I'm not so certain we should be willing to help, either.
Well, they (the left over 07s) kinda missed their boat, and since their biological clock is ticking, all compatible suitors (buyers) flock to the younger 09s :P
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Would you rather be referred to as "no one". :shades:
Couldn't resist.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I've been in the car biz for 5 years, after getting laid off from a "secure" union job I had for 7 years before that.
During my time working I realized that no job is secure these days, and the only thing you can do to have a competitive advantage is to know and learn as much as possible that you can apply to your career advancement.
My previous Sales Manager told me:
There is no such thing as luck. What luck really is, it's when preparedenss and opportunity meet.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Thats exactly what will happen, other companies will take up the slack. All those people who buy GM cars are not all of a sudden stop buying cars if GM disappears. They will buy something else and those companies will produce more cars, hire more workers and buy more parts and material.
Yeah GM going bye bye would hurt in the short run but in the long run it would be better than a bail out.
All a bail out will do is reward poor performance and that will hurt us in the long run.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
While I agree with that, I don’t think it will happen fast enough.
I really dislike the idea of “bail outs” but I’d rather save our economy than teach the Big 3 a lesson. I will say, that before we give them a “bail out” a damn good plan better be in place and this must include the elimination of bonus’s for exec’s who destroy companies and the auto union has to play a big part in this too; really everyone who has anything to do with the auto industry has to do their part.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
We both waited couple of days - no calls, no "did you reconsider". Today they came back with 7 grand for my WRX. Now - this is an offer - a low one, but at least a real one. Now this is a level they actually made it possible to counter without being ridiculously higher. Six grand was a "highway robbery in daylight" type of thing. I think they totally misread me - they thought I fell in love and already sent new car party invitations - couldn't be further from truth. They probabaly also thought if they focus all attention on new car discount, I will simply give away my old car. What I said was "yes, I like it, yes I buy it, but only if such and such" - they simply did not get to that part.
I committed if they put $7700 we sign papers on Saturday afternoon - and I mean that - it is my real price. It's exactly half way between my originally imagined value of $8500 and their second offer. Will see where it will go. I feel at that level I would get the most of the money, with a small concession on the trade. Deal comes of off skinny for them, but won't get totally clubbed. Let's see if they take it.
Why do I post it here? Because ultimately I'm selling my car. Since VIP program made selling and pricing STI easy and quick, it's now about me being able to convince them they can live with collecting a few hundreds for sale and the investment of $7700 into WRX will ultimately pay off
To be continued?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
"But the stark fact remains: Absent a bailout, GM dies, and with it much of manufacturing in America. Congress needs to do the right thing -- now "
Trying not to shock joel but I agree with you completely. I am a fiscal conservative, but those who are playing stance in this situation are not being honest . Has the UAW not been a killer to Detroit ? No question and has there been any solution to abbrogate the influence ?
And do not the three have financing units and is the financing of banks more sacred ? Paulson's an idiot . Let me contradict what I said previously. It's a brave new world and I am suffering under the collective wisdom of our legislative bodies. At this portion of the economic cycle I really don't wish to see three million added to the unemployed payrolls should the three go under. Schadenfreude, a German
term that reflects on joy at the misery of others.
Ok besides 3 million added to the unemployment rolls, 8, 000 parts suppliers that not only supply the three but Honda, Toyota, Nissan. Remember those domestic factories ?
Should the big 3 , ok 2 1/2 fail the auto parts suppliers would be next leading to a dominance of Chinese parts after market .Hint to congess :
quit calling it a bail out and style it as a loan Second hint, you are so shameful your opinion shouldn't really count.
It can't be that bad here in America, can it? :sick:
I actually considered the Avenger at one time. You could get it with a 235hp engine and I kinda liked it's looks (better than it's twin Sebring). Then I read the reviews which trashed it for it's handling and interior.
It's sad to see Chrysler trying to get by with non-competitive products. The playing field has changed. People are demanding much more for 25K these days.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I would call that the perfect negotiation dance. I evpect there next move to be 7k and you will settle at 7.2 with luck.
You are playing it perfect....I hope they are smart enough during these troubling times to keep the dance going.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Thanks...I like the A4 very much and hopefully next time around they'll keep the Quattro but add a hardtop. I like the hardtop idea and 96% of my driving is with the top up....but oh what a feeling having the top down...and all with just the press of one button.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I am a real amateur when it comes to finances, however, I am not sure burning through more millions of dollars will save the big 3. They are making cars people are not buying unfortunately.
Same happened to the radio and TV manufacturers in America about 40 or 50 years ago. We thought it was the end of the world when we saw names like RCA, G.E., Admiral, and Zenith disappear from the U.S., to be manufactured in Japan. Somehow, we survived. Timex had a fair bit of the market in the U.S. at one time, then the Japanese started making great watches at reasonable prices (Seiko). Then the Swiss came back with more refined watches at higher prices. Same in auto industry, Japan is making a quality product at a reasonable price. Europeans make a more refined product for people willing to pay for it. Where does that leave the big 3. The Big 3 have had at least 20 to 30 years to see what was happening,
and they kept building bigger and heavier cars.....and though the quality is close, most models miss the mark on style, engineering, reliability, refinement etc. and in any case people are buying overseas manufacturer's cars. You can plow more money into the system, but that's just life support if no one is buying.
Once again, I don't want to see it happen and I am not a financial wizard....but I think that is how it will play out.
Please explain how a loan is much different? Seems to me you will be a preferred creditor but how much will be left at the end of the day.....inventory and some old car plants?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
"Right sizing" for the current market is what's needed to happen. For GM, that means fewer models, fewer plants, fewer employees, fewer dealerships. Do I believe that a Malibu is substantially a worse car than an Accord, or Camry? No. It's just that there are fewer willing to buy in that segment.
UAW and GM went hand in hand down the path to where they are today. They both must suffer the painful cuts that need to happen. Call it a bailout, call it a loan, call it whatever you want. But, closing down factories, jettisoning employees, closing dealerships has a cost associated with it. That's where the focus should be. Instead of pouring development money into Saab, or Hummer, or Pontiac, they can focus on what's selling, as opposed to spinning cycles on what's not.
You can't just take a large sector of the economy and let it die. That'll just make a bad situation, worse.
$7k was their next move. dinosaur countered with $7,700. So the dealerships next move will probably be wanting to split the difference... maybe.
Yes, my mistake. I meant they would come up to $7200 and I think they will stop there. They came up from 6 so I don't think they want to go much past 7. Just a guess
And since I am being corrected how did dino001 become dinosaur? :confuse:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
lol
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
When I see "dino", I think of dinosaur. "dino011" must be an old guy... like jmonroe or oldfarmer. :P
Got $500-$1,000 "Customer Loyalty" certificate from Mazda today. Applies to all new vehicles in their lineup... except the 3. I like the 3 and the newly remodeled 6. I'll keep waiting until they make me an offer I can't refuse.
Yes, and that path now has to do with a clockwise spiral. In the southern hemisphere, it's counter (or anti-) clockwise. Think flushing.
RIP.
Here is another troubling thought. The banks, auto companies, consumers with bad mortgages, cities, and towns all want bail out monies. Just how much is there to go around? Just how much tax burden can Americans take on in these troubled times? While I certainly don't have any answers, I want my government to be specific as to what can be done with my tax dollars. All of you guys here have your careers on the line. Your representatives need to be told that and more. No one died and made Paulson or Congress king. The sooner that they know this, the better. Keep the faith.
Richard
Agree with all of your concerns Richard. Another thing I did not get was McCain plan to give people money so they could make their mortgage payments. The people who get in over their heads get the help, while those who saved and make their payments get nothing. I like the new plan of stretching the time line to make the payments manageable.....but bailing out people who get in over their heads - I don't think so. :mad:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Well, once again it depends on what they give you for your trade-in. $500 to $1000 off is a nice advertising teaser but to me it's just blah blah blah to get me to come in and be seduced (which I could be maybe but not for a Mazda - lol).
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Hey, don't lump me in with those old coots! I'll have you know that when I was in Florida I had to show ID to get a beer and I was denied the "senior discount" at the zoo. I feel just like a little kid.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Hey Jip, I'll sell you my Mazdaspeed 3; Mazda's already paid for a LF strut and a turbocharger- and the car doesn't even have 27,000 miles on the clock. By the time the 60,000 mile Powertrain warranty runs out you may have a totally rebuilt car- maybe even a third turbo!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
This madness is like giving mulligans on the PGA Tour. It is just not right.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It seems everyones attitude is to beat the poor dealer.... We have dealerships closing down all accross the country. Consumers want below hold back and above KBB on trade.... It just cracks me up....
Than if you say something like well people who pay more will get better treatment and that is wrong..... I just don't get how a industry (car biz) that is probably surveyed more than anything else.... A business that has to have certain standards... And no one seems happy about the car business....
Everyone likes to tell the story of how they beat a dealer.... Or brag about a tachnique.....
It is all the same...
GP
There are many fine dealers and many excellent car sales people too. I don't know of too many that are not good. But, one thing that gives dealers a bad reputation from the start is that the start with a high price on the new car, and low price on your trade. Then you negotiate back and forth and get a better price. This makes the customer very distrustful from the start. Then one dealer can sell the same car for less than another dealer. This begs the question, "Who is scamming who?"
If you got the best possible price on the new car and trade in from the beginning there wouldn't be so much mistrust.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
If you gave your best price at first pencil you would never sell a car
At this moment it was clear $6K was not "stupid", just somewhat low. I could probably try to grind a couple of hundred over that 7, but I'm not really a grinder - hate pressure, hate going into "unreasonable" area. I define grinder as somebody who will ask for more regardless how much you conceide, not somebody who asks for more in first couple of iterations... I called It's time to close it. I called them back and asked for 15% off on accessories and I buy it with 7 grand trade. They bit after twenty minutes. I was already on my way when the guy called.
So here it is guys: 2% under invoice minus $2500 bonus ($36K MSRP to $30.7K including junk fees), plus zero percent interest, 7 grand on my trade ('03 WRX) and 15% off accessories (one time deal - I come to their store, make a list and buy 15% off their shelf price). I think I did well - good deal, fantastic car.
Of course most credit goes to VIP program, but I still held my own (but adjusted for actual market) on the trade. We were all nice and cheerful - no hard feelings on lost bonuses or low trades, etc. We all move on to final stage. Just a quick decline of their mop&glo - I was actually surpised they did not press as much for anything, even warranty or GAP (I cashed out the trade, as zero percent financing makes it viable to use the cash some place else). Just one "menu" presentation and one "no". The guy almost run away after my pass - I almost thought I had to chase him to tell him why (he didn't want to know). I guess they already recognized "strongwilled" mindset at this point.
Small presentation and I sold my car (by taking delivery of new one
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Thanks. But, I'd prefer to buy from a little old lady who never had it out of 3rd gear. With a name like "roadburner", well... you get the point.
I think I'll still wait for that offer I can't refuse. What would that be? Well, GM has had invoice minus rebate prices. I read today Ford will be going with employee pricing minus rebates. So, I would like employee pricing PLUS rebate money PLUS 0% financing over 5 years PLUS waive the doc. fees. With all the bailout money the Big 3 will be getting, only seems fair.
edited: Sounds like a good deal "dino011". Congrats on the new wheels.
I don't think in terms of beating anybody. It was certainly not about any technique - especially that my new car price was taken care by an external force (VIP). I don't have a technique. I had a fantasy - if X,Y,Z happens, I will buy. X & Y happened, Z took some time and adjustments for both parties. And fantasy (almost) happened, with a little help from my mind to imagine a new one.
Ultimately they moved new piece of expensive iron, gained one also. We all shook hands and expressed appreciation. Isn't that what it is about Mr. GP? One day you have a guy buying MSRP, another day it's VIP. Kind of cuts both ways, doesn't it?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
And Daewoo was BIG in South Korea.
only one condition
EVERY GM employee from CEO to peon will be paid minimum wage for the next 1-3 years, subject to their successful turnaround.
I rented a Mazda 3 recently and I liked the room inside and the visibility. Very nice for a small car. I was kind of disappointed with the performance though. With the 3's "fun to drive" reputation I expected more. The 2.3L is nice off the line but runs out too early for me. I couldn't really test out the handling as I kept hearing an unpleasant noise from where my wife was sitting every time I tried to have some fun with it.
Now the Speed3 might be a different story.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Oh, sure, play the sympathy card! :P
But seriously, if you look at the "Prices Paid" topics you will find that for every buyer who claims he or she got a raw deal you'll find a half dozen others bragging about the great deal they got and another three or four wanting others to tell them whether they got a good deal or not. Things just can't be all that bad if you are unable to judge for yourself whether you got creamed.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Good thing you came back and did the deal with them after the time they put in.
Most people would go to another dealer to "save face" especially if it comes to better price or trade.
Post up a picture of your Impreza will ya?
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
And Daewoo was BIG in South Korea.
Excellent point. And same when Hudson went, and American Motors, Studebaker, Packard, Oldsmobile and many more...the world continued.
Just yesterday Yugo went bankrupt, but the sky didn't fall.....
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Good story Dino and I think you did well. I thought they would settle at $7200 but with your 15% it is about right.
However, being not too trusting about car dealerships, I wonder if they know Carmax gives low trade-in prices. Maybe they send everyone to Carmax knowing they pay under book value?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Hey, I resemble that remark! Here's a picture of me driving it to church on Sunday:
:P :P :P
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Perhaps I'll get that GM yet.
At the end make a decision one way or another and then no resentments, ifs or buts. Funny, I had "one free oil change" temptation singing in my mind the entire time we were completing paperwork
So I bit my tongue and told my devil to shut up.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Personally, I would've asked for employee pricing. Being the good customer that you are I'm sure the SM would've been more than happy to make those purchases for you. You know where the salesperson goes the extra yard for a great customer. :P
You did great. Why ruin it all with a free oil change $50 over 4 years = 30 cents a day. Like you said, you're happy, they are happy, life is good.
Do you always where your helmet when you go to church?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Huh? :confuse: :confuse:
What employee pricing? Did you read it at all? I got the car for what's call VIP pricing, which is invoice minus 2% minus all incentives - here 2500 dealer bonus. Subaru does that if you belong to certain organizations they support. Hard to imagine employee pricing is any different/better. 15% off on accessories was the final touch - last piece of the much larger puzzle.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
You make this purchase sound like Quantum physics. That's why I commented that I would've asked for employee pricing on the accessories which depending on what part could be up to 40%. Since everyone shook hands and thought it was a great deal you would think that they would be more than happy to give you employee pricing.
As an example, when I purchased an Acura at employee pricing (manufacture not dealer employee) I asked the SM if I could get employee discount on a spoiler which ran $800 at the time. He said dang you got the car at employee price you don't expect me to give away parts too? No problem. Made a phone call to a friend at American Honda and had the spoiler sent in two days for $500 shipping included.