Stories from the Sales Frontlines

snakeweasel

Allow me to preface my experience by saying that some of you will agree with my decision, and some of you will not. Opinions are like elbows, we all have at least two. Still, I did what I thought was best for me in terms of what I wanted, and in terms of how my money should be spent.

My opinion on that is that you will be the one driving and paying for the car so you are the only one that needs to be happy with the purchase. Sorry that it didn't work out for you and good luck in your search for your car.

imidazol97

>earning 4% interest, then you'll accumulate more money, ad infinitum, and never touch the principal...

Only if the bank doesn't go bankrupt or the principals abscond with the money. The FDIC only guarantees the first $250000 currently.

imidazol97

>For reference, you would have to spend about $1,368,925 each day with 0% interest. At a mere 1% apr, that figure explodes to about $27,378,507. And you would have spent a total of about $20 TRILLION give or take a half million. At 4% apr, those numbers approximately quadruple.

Our current House of Representatives could speed that easily!!! let them have a chance at it.

My head is hurting with all this math. Remember computing the leap year extra days that the year is not 365.25, it's slightly less--that's why we skip every 4th century year and don't put in the extra day to keep the current calendar in synch with the sun (that's until Apply comes up with a way to do). :P

snakeweasel

The difference in reliability isn't that great these days. BMW is right up there just behind Toyota. If a BMW requires an extra bit of service here or there, but you have more enjoyment driving it and it is safer many would prefer that.

Not sure that is entirely truthful. The people I know that drive MB's and BMW's do go into the shop far more often than those I know that drive non luxury cars. My mechanic (very trusted by me) also states that he will see more euro luxury far sooner than he will see other cars.

Mercedes has a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty, and BMW a 4 year bumper to bumper.

The thing about warranties is that while good if the car still needs work I still have the hassle of getting it to the dealer and getting it fixed.

Over 90% of all the Mercedes sold in the US are still on the road today, so they can't be that unreliable.

I find that very hard to believe.

Now I realize life is short, we are here for a good time not a long time, I prefer reliability, but I don't want boring reliability.

Comments like that I find really interesting. Ok the German luxury car will be able to out accelerate and out maneuver my daily drive, but when would anyone use that capacity? Most of those German luxury cars are sold in major urban areas with lots of traffic and mostly straight streets. For the vast majority of the time those "Non boring cars" will be driven within the capacity of those so called "boring" cars.

snakeweasel

it's slightly less--that's why we skip every 4th century year and don't put in the extra day to keep the current calendar in synch with the sun

Actually we don't skip every 4th century year, we skip the other three. 2000 was a leap year, 2100, 2200 and 2300 will not be leap years, nor were 1900, 1800 or 1700.

jipster

I told him that I appreciated all of his emails and the time that he had spent with us; but that the exterior color was just one that I didn't like at all.

After reading your heart sank after seeing the color, I was hoping you wouldn't take the GM. Good decision richard. I know you're probably disappointed it didn't work out, but hang in there... you'll find the car you want.

driver100

Reliability is an issue for me. If I can buy a $12,500 in 2000 and have a car that goes 160K miles (so far) with no issues then I expect at least that much from a $50,000 car.
I think this is a myth, the unreliability of European cars. Perhaps some cars like Rovers and Jaguars and VW have had more than a fair share of problems.

But, the real crux of the matter here is that some people opt for reliability above all else. Some people want low price above all else. Some people want performance or a certain driving experience.

No point arguing, none of the above is wrong......it depends on the individual what his priorities are. When I talk about the Euro drving experience I am not saying it is right and cost and reliability are wrong, I am just saying there is another way to view the world. You can get a cheap practical meal at McDonalds (and sometimes I like to do that too), but some people might prefer a finer dining experience. McDonalds gets you from A to B (what an analogy) the cheapest and most dependable way, but some people might opt for the much better dining experience.

But, I don't think you can know the difference unless you experience it. This Fusion is completely adequate, will get you from A to B in pretty good comfort and reliability, but there is a lack of "life", "enjoyment" "feel of the road" and because it doesn't handle as well (basic cornering, braking, steering control" it isn't as safe. I am not talking about speed or going around corners fast, I am talking about avoiding accidents, swerving and staying in control (stability control). I had to jam on the brakes to avoid a car cutting across the highway (drivers got worse down here this year) and I was shocked at the lack of braking power. My own car will automatically do full braking if you stomp on the brake pedal. It's about control and enjoyment in driving...not speed.

Once again, nothing wrong with your priority being low cost, or reliability, mine happens to be the enjoyment of driving (and I might pay a premium for that experience).

oldfarmer50

"...How to Get That New-Car Test Drive..."

Very funny article. It was nice to see that it's true what the sales folks on this board say about how you dress being important: "If you dress like a homeless person" "I look at the shoes and the watch" (No wonder richard gets such good treatment).

I also found it interesting that the salesman can tell how nice my house is just by looking at my driver's licence. Can he also guess my age and weight? (oh wait, that's on the licence too). :sick:

driver100

Most of those German luxury cars are sold in major urban areas with lots of traffic and mostly straight streets. For the vast majority of the time those "Non boring cars" will be driven within the capacity of those so called "boring" cars.

I feel it every block I take, every move I make. Every mile I drive there's a difference. In fact, just sitting in a Euro car and this Fusion and you will see a difference. The seats, sitting position, sight lines, balance,...they are designed right by engineers and stylists who have pride in craftsmanship...not just by accountants (sorry GP and any accountants out there, but you know what I mean) trying to make the cheapest car possible.

I would have said what you are saying 10 years ago....before I tried it.

houdini1

I think a lot of people get luxury and performance confused. IMO most European cars are not really luxury cars, they are performance cars and some of them are very austere.

My pick for a true luxury car is the Lexus LS. A good balance between luxury, reliability, and fairly good performance. Perfectly suited to American roads.

I agree that most of that performance will never be used. For example, my 06 LS has just over 30,000 miles on it. The computer has a setting that shows, among many other things, your average speed. My driving is split about even between city and hwy. I drive at least 70 mph on the hwy but my average speed over the 30,000 miles is 34 mph and I would guess that this is probably higher than most. I was shocked at first but it makes sense when you take into account all the time spent sitting at stop lights etc.

The computer also shows your average mpg and over the 30,000 miles the average is 23 mpg. Not bad for a V8.

bksward

Comments like that I find really interesting. Ok the German luxury car will be able to out accelerate and out maneuver my daily drive, but when would anyone use that capacity? Most of those German luxury cars are sold in major urban areas with lots of traffic and mostly straight streets. For the vast majority of the time those "Non boring cars" will be driven within the capacity of those so called "boring" cars.

Right... because if you live in one of those cities, people never drive anywhere else on the weekend, or on vacation. If you are a two car family, it may make sense for one car to be a "local use" car and the other to be better for either highway cruising or twisty back roads.

Also, compare the power numbers, a 528i has less power than a V6 Camry. But the level of feel for the road and the degree of control is a lot greater. One is a reliable, practical car that works well if you just sit in traffic or drive long interstate drives. The other does those things well too, but also handles that weekend out in the country roads...

oldfarmer50

"...and she would abide by my decision..."

I'm glad to see you didn't fall for THAT old trick.

Get the color you want.

I'd shop that same dealer though. Any place that surprises me by LOWERING the price is OK in my book.

driver100

Ok the German luxury car will be able to out accelerate and out maneuver my daily drive, but when would anyone use that capacity?

That reminds me of a way to illustrate my point. Let's say you want to come onto a highway from an entrance ramp.

The extra power and performance can get you onto the highway in a much safer way. It isn't about speed. It's about more control, the ability to speed up and fit in with the traffic flow, the ability to steer into your slot if you have to. This Fusion has a little less power than I would like and the steering is not as presice as I would like. That's what I am trying to say.

golic

Havasu Blue.

Richard, this so reminds me of back in 2002 when we were looking to replace our leased Honda Odyssey with a new Odyssey that we were going to buy. The Ody market was hot - and you were "fortunate" to get one for MSRP and a just plain lucky to get one $250 below MSRP.

I was sending emails out looking for one and finally get a dealer who calls me and says he has an Ody for $100 off. Wife and I go to dealer and check out the mini-van and my jaw drops. It was called "Havasu Blue" It should have been called "Faded seaweed blue" It was so bad that I decided I would just go to another dealer and pay sticker for the color the wife and I wanted.

I thanked the dealer and said we just don't like the color and I knew we would keep this car for a long time (which is true -since we still have the one we ended up buying 6 1/2 years later).

Wife and I looked at the choices and agreed on BLACK. We finally found a black one 3 days before the expiration of our lease (we were sweating). And we almost walked away from that deal..dealer was a complete jacka$$, in fact I finally walked out at 10pm at night, and the SM met me outside for a 1/2 hour and finally made things right. But that is another story.

houdini1

Different strokes for different folks. Makes life interesting, eh.

If one person likes vanilla and the other one likes chocolate, neither one is going to convince the other one that he is right !!

oldfarmer50

"...a good paint job would cost $1500...that buys a beer almost a day, for a year..."

Wow! You pay $4.10 for a beer? Must be one of those fancy Euro beers. I can buy a whole six-pack of my "economy" beer for that amount.

imidazol97

> I think we have had worse recessions, but this one is worse for D3 dealers because people aren't buying their cars as much...and there's more choice. Also, this credit problem seems to be new. Hope the stimulation package works.

It's been politicized and the economy talked down with scare tactics to get political results for certain groups and to have an excuse to let government take a part of control of certain business areas. The Detroit 3 is low priority to the politicians.

In past recessions the talk was how soon it would be looking up; in this one it's being talked down and people who have money are being scared away from spending. We've been in this recession for a year; 6 months to a year to go. But a lot of elective spending such as autos and repair work at dealerships is being put off.

imidazol97

Thanks. I got it backwards.

graphicguy

Richard....sorry you didn't get what you wanted. But, the sliver lining, the dealership treated you very well.

I'm still kind of surprised that the dealership didn't offer to special order the black GM for you. For their part, it would have been better than to let you walk....and, you get exactly what you want.

I understand that they don't know what your trade would be worth 6 weeks down the road. But, I can't imagine the trade would change all that much in that time period....as long as you don't wreck it.

Just real curious no one has offered the option of ordering one vs not getting your business at all.

fezo

I'm sure the not special ordering had to do with the fact that he was looking at a slightly used GM.

Richard - you did the right thing. Had you bought you'd be complaining about the color every day - even if just to yourself - and if you decided to paint it all of a sudden it isn't the great deal that you had. The right one will come along.

oldfarmer - yeah that article basically said they didn't want to give a test drive to some guy who looked like an old farmer....

golic

It is worse for the D3 not so much that people are not buying cars but the reality that the loose credit markets over the last 5-7 years has created a situation that people can no longer obtain credit to purchase a car.

I mean step back and think how this market operated. Lenders would allow people to roll "negative equity" in one depreciating asset into another depreciating asset. This makes very little economic sense. The only possible way for the purchaser to get out of this situation would be keep a car 7-10 years, but these consumers were not those types of buyers. They were sold on the "sizzle" of a new car every 2-4 years.

And then what happens when the rollovers get into the 2nd or 3rd cycle and get to upside down to service? Deny credit? No, the lenders create 72, 84 and dear lord 96 month financing. .

Finally, the bubble bursts- and I shake my head when people say it was due to the "perfect storm". It wasn't some perfect storm, it was an eventuality. The industry should have seen the writing on the wall 7-10 years ago and started slashing costs and increasing efficiency back then, rather then keeping the same model and relying on loose credit standards and 0% financing to keep sales volume up.

driver100

"...a good paint job would cost $1500...that buys a beer almost a day, for a year..."

I might not have been clear. $1500 for a paint job = $150 a year over 10 years = less than 50 cents a day for a beer. You could load up on your cheap stuff, it's actually less than that per bottle.

snakeweasel

But, the real crux of the matter here is that some people opt for reliability above all else.

No the real crux of the matter is the original post stated that if you buy cheap expect the car to require more repairs. This thread has proven that not to be the case.

driver100

Lenders would allow people to roll "negative equity" in one depreciating asset into another depreciating asset. This makes very little economic sense.

I was thinking, most of the people on this post are not the people who created the problem. The people here seem to be pretty responsible, paying off their homes, not overspending on furniture, for the most part driving cars that are practical and sensible, and keeping them for a longer time. There are some exceptions I am sure, but that seems to be the case. Wonder if only sane responsible people are drawn to this site. A lot of the ones who didn't fit the pattern left pretty quickly. :confuse:

snakeweasel

I think a lot of people get luxury and performance confused.

True luxury and performance are two different things but they are not exclusive. MB's and BMW's may not all be performance but they are all luxury.

snakeweasel

Right... because if you live in one of those cities, people never drive anywhere else on the weekend, or on vacation.

Tell me do you go out on those week end trips? I do and many of the well know destinations have a lot of traffic going to them. The vast majority of the high end cars I see in the country on the week ends are at popular destinations where they will be in moderate traffic getting there. The areas where there will be little or light traffic where you can actually use that performance are to rural and are devoid of high end cars.

Plus around here the country roads where I couldn't maintain at least 70 in my Elantra are few and far between, at least paved roads (I wouldn't race a BMW on a gravel rd).

snakeweasel

That reminds me of a way to illustrate my point. Let's say you want to come onto a highway from an entrance ramp.

That reminds me to ask how manyhighway entrance ramps are so short that you need all the HP from a powerful engine? The majority of on ramps around me I can get to traffic speed in my 4 banger 140 HP Elantra without breaking 3,000 RPM's. There are only a few very short ramps that I may not be able to hit 65-70+ MPH at the end and those areas have high traffic with low traffic speeds.

driver100

The majority of on ramps around me I can get to traffic speed in my 4 banger 140 HP Elantra without breaking 3,000 RPM's.

You could probably get on the highway in a Smart Car too! You might even be able to get on with a high quality racing bike. I prefer to have the extra horses in case some moron doesn't know he is supposed to allow me to merge into traffic. Or even worse, the guy behind me who lets me let the transport truck go by, and then he gets out first and ruins my chance to get on the highway.

The more power, and the better handling, = the more probability of avoiding accidents
IF
the power is used wisely!

payno0171

I am just wondering if anyone knows how accurate the TMV report is for Alaska. I was at a dealer yesterday negotiating on a used Subaru and the guy tried telling me the TMV price is just not reasonable for Alaska. I was under the impression that Edmunds is up to date on prices for all regions with demand and other things factored in. The report had the regional adjustment added for Alaska. The starting price for the 2006 Subaru Legacy Limited was $21000 then they said they could sell it to us for $18999. I thought that was way too high so I did a TMV report and it listed the dealer retail at just over $14000. I would just like to know if the TMV report is close to what people really are paying for cars in Alaska or if it is way off.

chikoo

>First, getting there is half the fun. If the car is just more fun to drive then getting from A to B is going to be part of the enjoyment experience.

I totally agree. The problem is everyone defines "fun" differently.
Look at Richard, for example. He enjoys the fact that the car went over railroad tracks and he could not even feel it (or something like that). A BMW will let you know that you went over railroad tracks, and how many too.

For some, luxury = fun.

jmonroe

I might not have been clear. $1500 for a paint job = $150 a year over 10 years...

It's not that you weren't clear, you have suffered dain bramage from the Florida sun.

I don't think your $1500 would get you anywhere near a quality paint job especially one where you change the color. There is a lot and I mean a lot more work when the color is changed because that involves all the door jams, inside trunk lid, under the hood, etc. It's for this reason I would never consider re-painting a car when the color is changed.

I had my 80' Park Ave. re-painted in 86' because the paint had faded but the car was in otherwise near perfect condition with less than 65K miles. That paint job was a quality paint job that included a couple of hours to fill the typical dimples you get from parking lot door strikes and I removed all of the trim pieces myself (doors, wheel wells, center piece on the hood, everything). That paint job cost $1200 in 86' so that's why you won't get anything close to a quality change of color paint job today for $1500.

I just wanted to be clear about this so the posters here wouldn't think I played in the sun too long. :P

jmonroe

oldfarmer50

"...TMV report is close to what people are really are paying..."

None of the guides get it right all the time. TMV, from what I gather is the average of actual prices paid in a given area. Unit prices could vary tremendously depending on many factors.

In my area of NY dealers typically price thousands higher than TMV and even KBB "asking" prices. Why that happens is a horse that has been beaten to death.

If TMV says 14K and KBB and NADA and others are in the same ballpark, then the dealer either has a high demand exceptional quality Subaru or he is asking too much. Offer 14K and see what happens.

Just be prepared to walk if the guy digs in his heels and won't come near your price. I've heard lots of stories here where a dealer is asking a really high price and won't budge.

payno0171

Thanks for the reply. The dealer said the car is in high demand but I dont believe a word that comes out of a dealers mouth. I was very unhappy with how this place treated us and I will not be going back in. He said when we are ready to quit playing games we can come back in and talk about buying the car. They have called us back twice and left messages saying they have good news but after treatins us like he did we are never going back. I was just mainly curious how close the TMV reports are Alaska and I thought it went off of what others are paying for the vehicle in a given area.
Thanks again!

fezo

Good for you! I've had that type of behavior form dealers and used to get intimidated but not any longer.

When I bought my daughter's car there was a nicer car that I wanted but they were a good $1,500 over market and wouldn't budge. When I bough elsewhere they asked why I didn't give them a chance to bring the price down. I gave them three chances. More than enough.

driver100

2006 Subaru Legacy.
This link claims you can probably get a new one for less than a used one:
Subaru Legacy

One example:
2009 Legacy 2.5i Sedan $21,795

But I would try a Google search such as; 2006 Subaru Legacy Alaska

You will see a ball park amount....I don't think they are too far off. Though with that attitude, I would shop elsewhere. Sounds like the kind of dealership that is so exclusive, they'll call you if they want to sell you a car. Kind of like the 25 steps salesman.

payno0171

The owner of the dealership even gave me a Kelley Blue Book printout of the car and it was priced at around $17000. After taking the sheet home and looking at it I see he added in a bunch of options that the car does not even have to make the car look like its worth more. I guess he thought I was too stupid to notice that.

morin2

Here in MD, there's a famous internet dealer (not sure if I'm allowed to say the name here) with 4 new 09 Legacy sedans (special edition model) for 19,790 - including freight. They also have a used 07 with 44K miles on it asking 13,888 - but its not a Limited. Sounds like your Alaska dealer doesn't want your business - although sometimes Subarus seem to hold their value a little too much to be worth considering buying used.

payno0171

I just found that dealers Subaru online and he has it listed for $18500. Still too high, but it just makes me more upset that he would tell me he is asking $21000 but would give me a good deal and sell it for $18999 when he has it listed for less online.

fezo

I ran into just that with a dealer here on the 04 Ody that I have. He put a price on the lot that was thousands more than his ads. I had an ad with me but he treated it like a misprint. I paid what the ad said but still feel like it was just an OK deal. I also learned that Honda doesn't follow up on CPOs or hold their dealers to a standard. That was disappointing. The van is fine but were I the manufacturer I'd have had issue with calling it a CPO.

Meanwhile, if you want to buy from the noted Maryland dealer maybe I can drive the Subaru up to Alaska. I'll just tell work I need a couple of weeks off.....

driver100

Over 90% of all the Mercedes sold in the US are still on the road today, so they can't be that unreliable.

I find that very hard to believe.

I did want to claify this statement, as I like to tell the truth to the best of my ability. The last time I read that figure was about 2 years ago. The latest figure is:
She noted that 74% of Mercedes models sold in the USA over the past 50 years are still on the road. A 2006 survey by R.L. Polk showed that Mercedes has the highest owner loyalty of any brand.
Source:USA Today

Still a remarkable record and don't forget many were probably in accidents they couldn't fix again.

bksward

There are plenty of roads all over the country that are fun to drive and aren't completely beset with traffic. I am completely surrounded by roads posted 45 or 55 mph with all sorts of curves marked as 25 and 35 mph that are much more fun to drive with a car that has some sort of handling prowess.

If you don't live near them that isn't my fault.

cdnpinhead

It sounds like you found a really good dealership. Could you work with them to look for the color combination you'd like? Sounds like they'd be willing.

It's very pleasant to deal with good people.

Rare, also.

driver100

roads posted 45 or 55 mph with all sorts of curves marked as 25 and 35 mph that are much more fun to drive with a car that has some sort of handling prowess.

Good try but I don't think SW gets it. I'd donate $10 if we can get him to rent a BMW somewhere and find out what driving is really all about.

cdn_tch

While it is true that that many MBs are still on the road, the stats are skewed in their favour.

MB drivers are more likely to maintain their cars better because they have a fair investment in their cars and can afford to do the maintenance.
They are less likely to drive in a way to put their cars at risk.
It takes a much more serious accident to write off a 50K car than a 20K one.

bksward

Good try but I don't think SW gets it. I'd donate $10 if we can get him to rent a BMW somewhere and find out what driving is really all about.

I took a quick look at his profile and it says he lives outside of Chicago... that would explain the lack of twisties... According to his profile though, he has a CTS-V :confuse:

jipster

Reliability is an issue for me. If I can buy a $12,500 in 2000 and have a car that goes 160K miles (so far) with no issues then I expect at least that much from a $50,000 car.

You Hyundai guys aren't kidding anybody. You know you are just too cheap to go Euro... same as ole Jip. That underneath all the "I prefer reliability over style"... you really would prefer a faster, sportier, better handling performance machine, like a Bemmer. ADMIT IT SNAKIE! You need a little more excitement in your life.... YOU"RE AN ACCOUNTANT DANG IT! Apologize to driver. Maybe, he'll let you drive his Bemmer once or twice around the block... before it breaks down. :P

imidazol97

>Maybe, he'll let you drive his bimmer once or twice around the block... before it breaks down.

Over a matter of years, I noticed how many of the BMW drivers picking up their kids in the driveway at school had loaner cars from the local and only dealership. It seemed like their BMWers were spending a lot of time away from home.

In deference to those who love to drive their Beemers and other sports cars, it may just be they took them in to be washed.
And I do understand how much fun they are to drive in between, but the ride is not for me.

snakeweasel

I have driven BMW's, sorry not worth the price.

snakeweasel

According to his profile

You know I have to update that profile sometime.

jimbres

In deference to those who love to drive their Beemers and other sports cars, it may just be they took them in to be washed.

Puh-leez! "Beemer" refers to BMW motorcycles. If you're talking about BMW cars, the correct nickname is "Bimmer".