Well it is easier than buying a house, or a boat, or a houseboat. :P But for just about anything the average person would buy I think the purchase of a car is the most difficult.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm starting to get the feeling that I need to spell everything out on here. You certainly picked out the vehicle you were looking for right? Then you just needed to make sure about options. Salesperson helped you pick a vehicle and then you negotiated. You couldn't agree on price, but at least you were in a closing situation and you had a specific vehicle in mind.
Not being able to come to agreement on price is definitely something we run into on a regular basis. I don't know that many salespeople are irritated with that, unless you offer something ridiculous. That's just part of the gig.
I'd take you over someone who wants to test drive and leave.
All of that information is no substitute for the 'seat of the pants' feel.
All of that information is also no subsitute for a trained professional who can put all the information to good use. You don't want to do all that homework by yourself and have noone to help! :surprise:
I can remember my folks telling me about an experience at a Ford Dealership in Ann Arbor, MI (where they live). The dealership advertises themselves as the biggest volume Ford Dealership in the US with the number of Fords on the lot second only to the River Rouge Plant in Dearborn.
This took place probably 20+ years ago and I don't remember the Ford model they were test driving, but my father was driving, my mother was in the passenger seat and the salesman was in the rear seat. My father hit the brakes a little hard at a stop and my mom, who was belted in, slid forward and hit the front dash. Apparently someone on the assembly line had failed to fasten the necessary bolts anchoring the seat to the floor. Fortunately, my mom wasn't injured. After the test drive the salesman wanted to know what he could do to "get them in that car or another Ford". I believe that my folk's polite response was "nothing". The disappointed salesman just couldn't understand why they didn't want the car or any other Ford that day. His reasoning was it was simply a matter of sending the problematic seat back to the service area for a quick fix. If the salesman had been on his toes he could have claimed it was a Ford prototype ejector seat although I doubt that would have won over my folks. I always wondered if they bothered to fix it before the next customer's test drive. My folks haven't owned a Ford since.
Let me try to answer a couple of your questions, and this will be the last post from me on this subject.
I am not an “older” buyer; the first new car I ever bought was in 89.
Yes, I do a lot of research before I go out for a test drive, but some things are subjective; like seat comfort, handling, acceleration, etc. As you can see from my post, I compare similar vehicles: Pilot vs. MDX, Siena vs. Odyssey.
Nobody successfully cheated me (as far as I know), but I did hear many lies; too many to list here. No, not every salesman that I dealt with has lied to me, but at least 50% did so. Since I do a lot research before hand, I can pick up on those lies really fast. Once I catch the salesman in a lie, I don’t confront him, but I do pack my stuff up and go to the next store. I would not buy from somebody I don’t trust.
I am always respectful to salespeople, and I don’t give them an attitude. It’s always polite and smiles on both sides until I tell them that I am not buying for a month or so. When I say that, I can see salesman’s facial expression change. Sometimes it’s disappointment, but many times it’s anger. I even had salesmen tell me that if you don’t buy today, there is only 10% chance I’ll ever see you again.
So, the common denominator is not me, it is the fact that they know they would not make a killing on me that day, and even if I come back, my offer will not be a homerun that they can expect from a sucker that buys on impulse.
The fundamental problem is simple - in no other transaction do buyers have to be on their guard against being taken to the cleaners by the seller.
Easiest? Hardly, given that in most cases there are a number of separate transactions involved in the process (price of new car, trade value of old car, and financing the three most common).
Maybe you're just having a bad run of luck then. My apologies to you. I'm just surprised I guess.
There is absolutely no fear in me to allow someone to leave our lot and come back later. Part of that is my product. Honda buyers are extremely loyal. Part of that is also the confidence in myself as a salesperson and the bankroll to not worry about folks who might be buying later than today. So, based on my experience, I'm just wondering what that 'X' factor is that keeps repeating this bad streak of salesman in your life.
Good luck out there exbO. Don't give up. You'll have a good experience soon. I can feel it.
Let's say that all those things are apparent. Remember the power of the internet. It gives you a guide for pricing, trade-in value, and you can get pre-approved for rates online as well.
You do that homework, goto the dealership and negotiate with facts instead of feelings. The trade-in value doesn't even need to be based on a guide, you can goto Carmax and they will give you a solid number that they will buy the vehicle for. It takes some time, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist. Seems pretty simple to me, but it's something I do everyday.
I don't know that many salespeople are irritated with that, unless you offer something ridiculous. That's just part of the gig.
Funny you should mention that, as I have an example of when I went car shopping with a friend of mine who was looking for a Kia Rio sedan. She was the one driving the deal, not me. So she did all the talking. I just sat back and watched. She test drove the car first, and then I test drove it. We spent maybe 45 min. with the salesman. When it came time to make a deal, she made an offer (I forget how much, but it was apparently too low). The salesman changed instantly from nice and friendly to a jerk in a split second. He exclaimed "Then we are done here". He folded up his paperwork, and left us sitting there at the desk. I was so incensed, that I was thinking of asking for the manager. Instead we just left. He made no attempt to get us to up our offer or anything, just said "We are done".
The fundamental problem is simple - in no other transaction do buyers have to be on their guard against being taken to the cleaners by the seller.
I wish it were so.
I've related this before, but it's pertinent: When I refinanced through my trusted credit union 3 years ago, the title company tried to fleece me by a little over a grand. Claiming they had paid taxes for me, when I'd just paid them myself. In cash and in person. AND I DON'T ESCROW. I mean, seriously! I was so off guard I almost didn't catch it.. didn't even bring a calculator.
Then there's insurance -- I don't even really understand everything I'm doing there, but I *think* I have a good agent... Then there's investing. Then there are extended warranties on everything you buy. And of course all the people who got talked into (& let themselves be talked into) exotic mortgages that now hang around their necks.
In this day and age, the internet has EVERYTHING available to you. Invoice, real pricing, safety ratings, options, pictures of the vehicle, comparisons among competiting vehicles, financing rates..... What other product do you have this much information available to you?
Like the other poster - there comes a time when you just have to drive the damn thing. I was all set to get an Aerio - until I drove it. I was saying "the Mazda3 hatch" is my dream affordable car - and then a test drive showed some extreme wind shear, and price-wise was out of my range. A couple of other cars just didn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling, including an xA that I wanted to like, but couldn't see myself driving long-term.
Reviews and overviews won't tell you how easy or annoying the center stack is laid out for you. How the seat feels when you sit down in it. What it feels like to be driving a car that's much larger (or smaller) than what you're used to. Eventually you have to put a butt in the seat, and that's where I want a salesman to help me out.
And when I was looking, I made sure to tell everyone beforehand, "I've done my online research, now I'm just trying things out."
Oh I don't know, it seems to be that I know more about the car I am looking at than that trained professional.
Just a post ago you were talking about how car buying relates to "the average person". So, you may know more about a car than a trained professional ...but the "average person" probably does not. So, for the "average person", madmanmoo would be helpful in helping the customer put their information to good use.
By the way madman... how did you come up with the username madmanmoo? Were you a disgruntled dairy farmer at one time?
We have been over this before. You aren't buying the right kind of cars. No customer knows more about my product line then I do. Excluding our most senior tech no one at our dealership knows more about our vehicles then me.
Having just bought my first house in July I agree with you completely.
My mortgage broker tried to completely screw me. I had to call in a favor with one of my clients who is also a mortgage broker to get everything straight. I basically owe him a free Range Rover next year. :sick:
It was a childhood nickname. I was a raving terror as a child. I'm not sure of the origins of it, but my brother's best friend just started calling me that. It stuck.
Just a post ago you were talking about how car buying relates to "the average person". So, you may know more about a car than a trained professional ...but the "average person" probably does not.
Well one time I was being shown the larger 6 cylinder engine by a trained professional at a dealership oh so many years ago. Trouble was it was a 4 cylinder. Back then I was just one of those average persons, but I knew enough to know that a 6 cylinder engine has 6 spark plug wires not 4.
A couple of months ago I went to look at the Hyundai Azera, talking to the salesman I asked if Hyundai would make another station wagon. The salesman told me Hyundai never made a station wagon. I pointed to the Hyundai station wagon in the parking lot, he denied it was a Hyundai. I didn't have the heart to tell him it was mine.
I rarely have been impressed by these "Trained professionals".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes we have, trust me if I were interested in the Rover I would come in at least knowing as much as you would. I know where to get information and I read up on my purchase.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm sure with such high turnover in car sales it's just the luck of the draw whether one gets a knowledgeable salesperson or not. Whether Honda, Chevy, Ford etc. salespeople are trained extensively in product knowledge I don't know. I guess that is why the salespeople in here are always harping on us to get referrals before going into a dealership.
But, I would think the "average" person probably doesn't even know what a cylinder is. Any salespeople care to comment on the car knowledge and negotiation skills the "average" buyer posses???
It's probably still great place. Salesman recommendation - Don Brown. And, yes, I live there.
By comparison, when we bought 2002 Accord, we looked at the T-Town Accura dealer. They just barely spoke. Mainly to tell us that all their stock was sold and most of the ordered ones coming in were also pre-sold. If I ordered one, they 'might' give me a couple hundred off sticker. The Honda dealer in the south of town told us we should buy from them because of the 'intangibles' of their dealership - friendly caring people, my salesman wore pointy toed cowboy boots and cowboy cut jacket, etc, etc, etc. They would not meet the Bville price. End of discussion. I wasn't very happy leaving, especially since they advertized heavyly that they would 'beat any deal'. When I mentioned this, the salesman said if I brought in a signed sales order, they would beat it by a dollar. Then I saw another salesman had his coffee cup sitting on my little red truck. My little truck was 8 years old or so at that time, but it was in very good shape. And certainly didn't deserve to be used as a cup holder for some dumb salesman. My wife was even more upset, I think she was the one that invited him to remove his cup from our truck.
As the years have passed, I find how auto sales have changed somewhat overwhelms me.
In the late 70's or so, I was stunned when a salesman asked for a signed check of $250 or so before he would even go to the 'manager' and get a dealer opening price on a car. When I figgered out he was serious, I told him my checks cost me 2 or 3 cents each, and it sure wasn't worth that much to start a negotation on his car, much less having a signed check floating around the building. We left.
In 1991, after 'buying' a SHO, I was totally befuddled again when the salesman dumped me into another office with a F&I guy. My question to him was 'Who are you and why am I talking to you?'. And they also pulled out the new-to-me 'documentation fee'. And they seemed to be completely overwhelmed themselves when I would not complete a $17,000 transaction over $40. The salesman finally agree to pay it out of his side.
And just recently, I earnestly tried to deal over the phone, out of state, for a sports car. I knew that I would have to fly or drive to Texas to complete the deal, but I wanted some indication of what price I was going to be paying. And I was going to request a fax from a dealership on a price committment before I went that far. What I would get first of all was 'I think I can get you into one for $600 or $700 a month'. All the while I was tell him I'm not talking payment, I'm talking price. At another dealer (I was looking for a specific color outside and inside and some specific options), after back and forth haggling price for 3 days with 'Felix', out of the blue another person calls me. First thing he says is 'You know this car is going to be about $60,000 with tax and tag, don't you?' Again I felt 'Who are you and why are you calling me?' I told him 'Felix' and I were previously far south of that number in our dealings, I lived out of state and wasn't going to be paying Texas tag and tax, and did he even really know what I was looking for? After a couple more back and forths, and it became obvious that he didn't have much of an idea what I wanted, I told him our dealings were over and he had lost this sale. I got a call a few days later from some little followup lady about 'How was your dealing with us a few days ago?' I unloaded big time on her about what a dumb thing that happened to me, and she promised to pass the info on the someone in management and she was sure someone would get back to me about these problems. Never heard anything, of course. The only thing I can think of, someone thought Felix wasn't getting me sold quickly enough so they pulled me away from him and turned me to some 'closer'. Who really didn't know **** about what was going on.
I wasn't really risking anything because the car Felix was discussing with me was across Dallas and they were going to have to swap for it anyway. I wanted to talk to this dealer because they are known for selling 'more sports cars than anyone in Texas' and I thought they might be able to order exactly what I wanted at a good price and they would have an allocation for the car to actually order one. But because of some kind of dumb stunt, they lost me.
I know 95% or so of buyers are payment buyers. But when a cash buyer appears, why are salesmen apparently not even trained to deal with them? Why can't they shift gears into a 'price' discussion rather than a 'how much a month' discussion.
I decided I could live with a different interior color so I only drove half way to Texas and got a car. After 'buying' it, they dumped us into the F&I guys office. At least I now expect this. After the mass paper shuffling, he starts to fill out a paper tag. I said 'Wait a minute, I told you I was going to have to shift some money around before I can get the car. I'll give you a check for a thousand or two to hold the car, but I don't have the money right now'. He replied 'I want you to get your car off my lot.' I wrote him a hot, hot, hot check which he agree to hold until I called and I drove the car home. Some people do know how to sell cars, but it takes work for a buyer to find them.
...Then I saw another salesman had his coffee cup sitting on my little red truck...
That takes a lot of nerve.
I would have removed it, gently poured out the contents, so as not to splash myself or others. Then I would have dropped it as I was handing it back to this inconsiderate jerk.
There are some things I won't tolerate and disrespect for any of my stuff is at the top of the list.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Having handled a great many real estate deals for clients, I can only say, yes, one must be on their guard in real estate transactions BUT usually for a different reason - the incompetence of some loan officers and title agencies.
In a car sale, many dealer are only interested in taking as much money out of the customer's pocket as possible.
Whether Honda, Chevy, Ford etc. salespeople are trained extensively in product knowledge I don't know.
I would suspect that that would depend on the dealership. I have heard of some dealership sending out newbies after less than an hour of training, and some with days and even weeks of training.
But, I would think the "average" person probably doesn't even know what a cylinder is.
I guess I have more faith in the average person than you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You made an offer. The salesman declined to accept it and walked off. Big deal.
I think the big deal is how the attitude of the salesman changed. Regardless of if he tried to make the sale of just ended it s/he should have stayed with the same attitude.
Also unless the offer was way to low the salesperson should have either made a counter offer or leave the door open for the customer to increase the offer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well I did exclude our most senior techs as they have been working with Land Rover much, much longer then me. I have been here longer or just as long as some of the more junior techs and I did work as a tech, although not a Land Rover one, for years before I got into sales.
So my question... Are all three Land Rovers (Range, Range Sport and the LR3) made on the same platform?
As to your questions no they are not.
The Range Rover uses a platform that is internally called L322. The Range Rover is the heaviest unibody constructed passenger vehicle in the world. It is basically the only mass produced vehicle in the world that does not share its platform with some other vehicle.
Even many Bentley models now share there platforms with lesser Audi models.
The Range Rover Sport and LR3 both use the new T5 platform that is a hybrid unibody/body on frame design. Land Rover calls it integrated body frame design or IBF but it is also called a semi-moncoque platform.
The next generation Defender will use the T5 Platform. Their have been rumors that the next generation Range Rover will use a stretched T5 platform as well but that is uncofirmned. I have also heard rumors that the next generation Range Rover will use a new all aluminium unibody design to reduce the weight of the Range Rover by 1,000 lbs.
This new design would use technology developed by Jaguar for the all aluminium XJ and XK.
"I think the big deal is how the attitude of the salesman changed."
Yeah, I guess that bothers some people. Most of us grown-ups have learned to not let these things upset us.
"the salesperson should have either made a counter offer or leave the door open for the customer to increase the offer"
As long as the dealer is open for business I am able to make an offer or increase a previous offer. The salesman has nothing to do with it. If they are closed, I can even write my offer on a piece of paper and slide it under the door.
Bobst, I totally agree with you. Your method works...evidently, mazda6iguy's offer was way too low and he had not made an offer even worth considering.
newq7, not to diminish your experience in any way....but salespeople deal with customers who do the exact same thing on a daily basis. agree to a car, leave a deposit, verbally commit to the whole shebang, then bail last minute. the dealership could have had a customer on their end who did that to them. was planning on buying this car that they were getting from you, then they bailed. now they have no need for the car, why would they buy it?
When you see a salesperson get irritated with an offer, it's usually because you've offered something around 6k below invoice. And you aren't negotiating on a domestic product.
He presents his numbers and then you offer the equivalent of 3 pieces of candy corn in trade for the brand new vehicle. But the downside is, you took around 2 hours to get to offering the 3 pieces of candy corn.
I have spent two hours on a busy day with a customer only to have them present a ridiculous offer.
By ridiculous, I mean an offer that is thousands of dollars below what we paid for the car.
I don't get rude or nasty but few things annoy me more than this does.
I have told customers.." I wish you had let me know right away what you were planning to offer. We could have both saved ourselves a lot of time on a busy day"
When we bought our Honda last year, we walked into the dealer and immediately gave the salesman our written offer. We didn't want to waste any of their time if our offer was too low.
Of course, the sales manager made a good effort to bump us up, but that was not a problem. We were not in a hurry, and we liked the salesman. Eventually, they accepted our offer.
When you see a salesperson get irritated with an offer, it's usually because you've offered something around 6k below invoice. And you aren't negotiating on a domestic product.
He presents his numbers and then you offer the equivalent of 3 pieces of candy corn in trade for the brand new vehicle. But the downside is, you took around 2 hours to get to offering the 3 pieces of candy corn.
From what I remember of the deal, I think my friend offered 11k cash (I know cash gets no special treatment) on a loaded Kia Rio that stickered at 14k something. I was prepared to step into the negotiations the split second before the salesman concluded everything. And after my friend thought it over, she later told me that the car was too underpowered for her liking. Anyway to sum it up.... the lesson learned from that experience is my friend should have done more research instead of just dropping by the dealership on the spur of the moment. And I think the salesman needed more training on his people skills.
Back in the early 90s I was shopping for an Olds Cutlass Supreme. I wanted the one with the optional 3.4 DOHC engine. That engine was an option in the base model, and it also came standard in the top of the line fully loaded International edition. So I go the dealer and the salesman tells me that they don’t have any cars in stock with that engine. He said that they just don’t keep 22 thousand dollar cars in stock. I said that I am not looking for the International edition, and that I want the base model. He gets angry and starts screaming at me: “I bet you would pay that for a [non-permissible content removed] car!” A little annoyed I told him that it would depend on the car. The guy just blew his gasket. He started cursing at me and stormed back into the store. Needless to say, I didn’t buy that car.
And I think the salesman needed more training on his people skills.
I agree. Most sensitive people would think this sales mans behavior rude. i.e Says "Then we are through" and walks away. A more professional response, " I am sorry sir, but we are just to far apart to make this work. Good day(shakes hand)".
In looking up MSRP and invoice on the Rio I see there is only a $700 difference on a 14k Rio. So, barring any rebates, this was an offer of $2,300 under invoice. :surprise: While I can see this salesperson getting upset and feeling his time was wasted, his response was uncalled for. Maybe, he was just having one of those days madmanmoo was writing about in an earlier post.
Speaking of time wasted, I don't quite understand the paranoia. If a deal isn't made, then both parties time is wasted. While I come to a dealership fully prepared and informed... the "average person" probably does not.
So, what are you gonna do salespeople? Turn away anybody who doesn't come running at you with an offer on a piece of paper? Some people like a thorough explanation of car features, multiple test drives and chit chat before feeling comfortable enough to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a purchase. It's okay for a dealership to mark up a car 4 or 5 thousand over what it is worth. But, if a customer offers 4 or 5k less than what a vehicle is worth... they are wasting the dealerships and sales persons time? Works both ways guys.
It's okay for a dealership to mark up a car 4 or 5 thousand over what it is worth. But, if a customer offers 4 or 5k less than what a vehicle is worth... they are wasting the dealerships and sales persons time?
That might be where the problem sometimes lies. The markup on used vehicles is way above that for new ones, but there's no reason that every potential customer should know that. If they have negotiated, or even heard about, that kind of discount on a used vehicle, it's not unreasonable that they might expect it to be available on a new one.
In the case being discussed, I think a reasonable response from the salesperson would be to politely ask "How did you arrive at the figure you're offering?".
How many posts do we see here "I want to buy a Xmobile for $20K, there is $2500 cash back on it, I know the invoice is $18.5K before incentives, I just wonder what other hidden incentives "blink blink" are there. I heard dealers are showered with tons of cash so can I offer $14K? You know, I don't want to pay too much"
It seems that industry set themselves up for having people that come with those funny offer. All that secretive behavior, "qualifying" games, screamer ads, huge disparities in nominal margins (before all market adjustments, like incentives etc.) between brands or even within brands, incentives and most of all - long history of legendary ripoffs and questionable behaviors by some (not that few, unfortunately) creates situation in which "average" customer who is not really interested in how the business works, but of course wants to save money (who doesn't?) thinks "who knows how much they really paid for it - lets just shoot some number and we will go from there". A lot of people honestly believe that dealers get those cars basically for next to free, so asking for 25% discounts is probably reasonable in their mind.
You raise a good point. Both the customer and the salesman/dealer et al would benefit from more consistent pricing. I truly believe that more consistent, reasonable pricing equals more consistent, reasonable offers.
The Range Rover uses a platform that is internally called L322. The Range Rover is the heaviest unibody constructed passenger vehicle in the world. It is basically the only mass produced vehicle in the world that does not share its platform with some other vehicle.
An interesting fact to be sure, but you do realise that doesn't necessarily make it better than anything else, maybe just more expensive than it needs to be?
Have never gotten any attitude from a salesperson (they probably think I am a good target as I am female) but whoo boy have I gotten attitude from F&I. I'm always polite to both F&I and sales, however - and I am honest if I am not buying today.
Have bought a lot of cars and even in my younger stupid days when I sat through the four-square routine and negotiated on payments I knew enough to turn down undercoating, overpriced alarms, lojack, etc.
Just bought a 2007 Toyota, paid cash and turned down each and every option from F&I with 'No thank you' repeated until they stopped saying 'but but but..'. F&I gave up and just sat and munched on her lunch while I initialed the paperwork. She was quite curt if I asked anything at all /sigh.
Am curious what are the flags to get 'swarmed' as an up vs. getting ignored. The last two cars I purchased I did it all via the internet and walked through the back to fleet, check in hand after negotiating via phone and email but I have walked on the lot a few times and except for the ultra nice Saturn dealers have never gotten swarmed. I sometimes will look around the lot while my car is in the shop and no one bothers to even say hello. Are 30ish females wearing ratty jeans and a t-shirt not good bets?
Comments
You have my deepest sympathies. Your car shopping description mirrors my own. I know where you're coming from.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not being able to come to agreement on price is definitely something we run into on a regular basis. I don't know that many salespeople are irritated with that, unless you offer something ridiculous. That's just part of the gig.
I'd take you over someone who wants to test drive and leave.
All of that information is no substitute for the 'seat of the pants' feel.
All of that information is also no subsitute for a trained professional who can put all the information to good use. You don't want to do all that homework by yourself and have noone to help! :surprise:
This took place probably 20+ years ago and I don't remember the Ford model they were test driving, but my father was driving, my mother was in the passenger seat and the salesman was in the rear seat. My father hit the brakes a little hard at a stop and my mom, who was belted in, slid forward and hit the front dash. Apparently someone on the assembly line had failed to fasten the necessary bolts anchoring the seat to the floor. Fortunately, my mom wasn't injured. After the test drive the salesman wanted to know what he could do to "get them in that car or another Ford". I believe that my folk's polite response was "nothing". The disappointed salesman just couldn't understand why they didn't want the car or any other Ford that day. His reasoning was it was simply a matter of sending the problematic seat back to the service area for a quick fix.
Gogiboy
Oh I don't know, it always seems to be that I know more about the car I am looking at than that trained professional.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I am not an “older” buyer; the first new car I ever bought was in 89.
Yes, I do a lot of research before I go out for a test drive, but some things are subjective; like seat comfort, handling, acceleration, etc. As you can see from my post, I compare similar vehicles: Pilot vs. MDX, Siena vs. Odyssey.
Nobody successfully cheated me (as far as I know), but I did hear many lies; too many to list here. No, not every salesman that I dealt with has lied to me, but at least 50% did so. Since I do a lot research before hand, I can pick up on those lies really fast. Once I catch the salesman in a lie, I don’t confront him, but I do pack my stuff up and go to the next store. I would not buy from somebody I don’t trust.
I am always respectful to salespeople, and I don’t give them an attitude. It’s always polite and smiles on both sides until I tell them that I am not buying for a month or so. When I say that, I can see salesman’s facial expression change. Sometimes it’s disappointment, but many times it’s anger. I even had salesmen tell me that if you don’t buy today, there is only 10% chance I’ll ever see you again.
So, the common denominator is not me, it is the fact that they know they would not make a killing on me that day, and even if I come back, my offer will not be a homerun that they can expect from a sucker that buys on impulse.
Easiest? Hardly, given that in most cases there are a number of separate transactions involved in the process (price of new car, trade value of old car, and financing the three most common).
There is absolutely no fear in me to allow someone to leave our lot and come back later. Part of that is my product. Honda buyers are extremely loyal. Part of that is also the confidence in myself as a salesperson and the bankroll to not worry about folks who might be buying later than today.
So, based on my experience, I'm just wondering what that 'X' factor is that keeps repeating this bad streak of salesman in your life.
Good luck out there exbO. Don't give up. You'll have a good experience soon. I can feel it.
Let's say that all those things are apparent. Remember the power of the internet. It gives you a guide for pricing, trade-in value, and you can get pre-approved for rates online as well.
You do that homework, goto the dealership and negotiate with facts instead of feelings. The trade-in value doesn't even need to be based on a guide, you can goto Carmax and they will give you a solid number that they will buy the vehicle for. It takes some time, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist. Seems pretty simple to me, but it's something I do everyday.
I love my job. :P
Funny you should mention that, as I have an example of when I went car shopping with a friend of mine who was looking for a Kia Rio sedan. She was the one driving the deal, not me. So she did all the talking. I just sat back and watched. She test drove the car first, and then I test drove it. We spent maybe 45 min. with the salesman. When it came time to make a deal, she made an offer (I forget how much, but it was apparently too low). The salesman changed instantly from nice and friendly to a jerk in a split second. He exclaimed "Then we are done here". He folded up his paperwork, and left us sitting there at the desk. I was so incensed, that I was thinking of asking for the manager. Instead we just left. He made no attempt to get us to up our offer or anything, just said "We are done".
I will never step foot in that dealership again.
I wish it were so.
I've related this before, but it's pertinent: When I refinanced through my trusted credit union 3 years ago, the title company tried to fleece me by a little over a grand. Claiming they had paid taxes for me, when I'd just paid them myself. In cash and in person.
AND I DON'T ESCROW. I mean, seriously! I was so off guard I almost didn't catch it.. didn't even bring a calculator.
Then there's insurance -- I don't even really understand everything I'm doing there, but I *think* I have a good agent... Then there's investing. Then there are extended warranties on everything you buy. And of course all the people who got talked into (& let themselves be talked into) exotic mortgages that now hang around their necks.
Give me a car store anytime.
-Mathias
Did they have a receipt?
tidester, host
I would say that you really have to be on your guard buying a house.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Like the other poster - there comes a time when you just have to drive the damn thing. I was all set to get an Aerio - until I drove it. I was saying "the Mazda3 hatch" is my dream affordable car - and then a test drive showed some extreme wind shear, and price-wise was out of my range. A couple of other cars just didn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling, including an xA that I wanted to like, but couldn't see myself driving long-term.
Reviews and overviews won't tell you how easy or annoying the center stack is laid out for you. How the seat feels when you sit down in it. What it feels like to be driving a car that's much larger (or smaller) than what you're used to. Eventually you have to put a butt in the seat, and that's where I want a salesman to help me out.
And when I was looking, I made sure to tell everyone beforehand, "I've done my online research, now I'm just trying things out."
Just a post ago you were talking about how car buying relates to "the average person". So, you may know more about a car than a trained professional ...but the "average person" probably does not. So, for the "average person", madmanmoo would be helpful in helping the customer put their information to good use.
By the way madman... how did you come up with the username madmanmoo? Were you a disgruntled dairy farmer at one time?
My mortgage broker tried to completely screw me. I had to call in a favor with one of my clients who is also a mortgage broker to get everything straight. I basically owe him a free Range Rover next year. :sick:
It was a childhood nickname. I was a raving terror as a child. I'm not sure of the origins of it, but my brother's best friend just started calling me that. It stuck.
Well one time I was being shown the larger 6 cylinder engine by a trained professional at a dealership oh so many years ago. Trouble was it was a 4 cylinder. Back then I was just one of those average persons, but I knew enough to know that a 6 cylinder engine has 6 spark plug wires not 4.
A couple of months ago I went to look at the Hyundai Azera, talking to the salesman I asked if Hyundai would make another station wagon. The salesman told me Hyundai never made a station wagon. I pointed to the Hyundai station wagon in the parking lot, he denied it was a Hyundai. I didn't have the heart to tell him it was mine.
I rarely have been impressed by these "Trained professionals".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes we have, trust me if I were interested in the Rover I would come in at least knowing as much as you would. I know where to get information and I read up on my purchase.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But, I would think the "average" person probably doesn't even know what a cylinder is. Any salespeople care to comment on the car knowledge and negotiation skills the "average" buyer posses???
So my question... Are all three Land Rovers (Range, Range Sport and the LR3) made on the same platform?
Thanks (a happy Land Rover owner)... Mark156
By comparison, when we bought 2002 Accord, we looked at the T-Town Accura dealer. They just barely spoke. Mainly to tell us that all their stock was sold and most of the ordered ones coming in were also pre-sold. If I ordered one, they 'might' give me a couple hundred off sticker. The Honda dealer in the south of town told us we should buy from them because of the 'intangibles' of their dealership - friendly caring people, my salesman wore pointy toed cowboy boots and cowboy cut jacket, etc, etc, etc. They would not meet the Bville price. End of discussion. I wasn't very happy leaving, especially since they advertized heavyly that they would 'beat any deal'. When I mentioned this, the salesman said if I brought in a signed sales order, they would beat it by a dollar. Then I saw another salesman had his coffee cup sitting on my little red truck. My little truck was 8 years old or so at that time, but it was in very good shape. And certainly didn't deserve to be used as a cup holder for some dumb salesman. My wife was even more upset, I think she was the one that invited him to remove his cup from our truck.
As the years have passed, I find how auto sales have changed somewhat overwhelms me.
In the late 70's or so, I was stunned when a salesman asked for a signed check of $250 or so before he would even go to the 'manager' and get a dealer opening price on a car. When I figgered out he was serious, I told him my checks cost me 2 or 3 cents each, and it sure wasn't worth that much to start a negotation on his car, much less having a signed check floating around the building. We left.
In 1991, after 'buying' a SHO, I was totally befuddled again when the salesman dumped me into another office with a F&I guy. My question to him was 'Who are you and why am I talking to you?'. And they also pulled out the new-to-me 'documentation fee'. And they seemed to be completely overwhelmed themselves when I would not complete a $17,000 transaction over $40. The salesman finally agree to pay it out of his side.
And just recently, I earnestly tried to deal over the phone, out of state, for a sports car. I knew that I would have to fly or drive to Texas to complete the deal, but I wanted some indication of what price I was going to be paying. And I was going to request a fax from a dealership on a price committment before I went that far. What I would get first of all was 'I think I can get you into one for $600 or $700 a month'. All the while I was tell him I'm not talking payment, I'm talking price. At another dealer (I was looking for a specific color outside and inside and some specific options), after back and forth haggling price for 3 days with 'Felix', out of the blue another person calls me. First thing he says is 'You know this car is going to be about $60,000 with tax and tag, don't you?' Again I felt 'Who are you and why are you calling me?' I told him 'Felix' and I were previously far south of that number in our dealings, I lived out of state and wasn't going to be paying Texas tag and tax, and did he even really know what I was looking for? After a couple more back and forths, and it became obvious that he didn't have much of an idea what I wanted, I told him our dealings were over and he had lost this sale. I got a call a few days later from some little followup lady about 'How was your dealing with us a few days ago?' I unloaded big time on her about what a dumb thing that happened to me, and she promised to pass the info on the someone in management and she was sure someone would get back to me about these problems. Never heard anything, of course. The only thing I can think of, someone thought Felix wasn't getting me sold quickly enough so they pulled me away from him and turned me to some 'closer'. Who really didn't know **** about what was going on.
I wasn't really risking anything because the car Felix was discussing with me was across Dallas and they were going to have to swap for it anyway. I wanted to talk to this dealer because they are known for selling 'more sports cars than anyone in Texas' and I thought they might be able to order exactly what I wanted at a good price and they would have an allocation for the car to actually order one. But because of some kind of dumb stunt, they lost me.
I know 95% or so of buyers are payment buyers. But when a cash buyer appears, why are salesmen apparently not even trained to deal with them? Why can't they shift gears into a 'price' discussion rather than a 'how much a month' discussion.
I decided I could live with a different interior color so I only drove half way to Texas and got a car. After 'buying' it, they dumped us into the F&I guys office. At least I now expect this. After the mass paper shuffling, he starts to fill out a paper tag. I said 'Wait a minute, I told you I was going to have to shift some money around before I can get the car. I'll give you a check for a thousand or two to hold the car, but I don't have the money right now'. He replied 'I want you to get your car off my lot.' I wrote him a hot, hot, hot check which he agree to hold until I called and I drove the car home. Some people do know how to sell cars, but it takes work for a buyer to find them.
You made an offer. The salesman declined to accept it and walked off. Big deal.
That is my kind of salesman.
If you wanted to increase your offer, I am sure the sales manager would have considered it.
That takes a lot of nerve.
I would have removed it, gently poured out the contents, so as not to splash myself or others. Then I would have dropped it as I was handing it back to this inconsiderate jerk.
There are some things I won't tolerate and disrespect for any of my stuff is at the top of the list.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
In a car sale, many dealer are only interested in taking as much money out of the customer's pocket as possible.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I would suspect that that would depend on the dealership. I have heard of some dealership sending out newbies after less than an hour of training, and some with days and even weeks of training.
But, I would think the "average" person probably doesn't even know what a cylinder is.
I guess I have more faith in the average person than you.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think the big deal is how the attitude of the salesman changed. Regardless of if he tried to make the sale of just ended it s/he should have stayed with the same attitude.
Also unless the offer was way to low the salesperson should have either made a counter offer or leave the door open for the customer to increase the offer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So my question... Are all three Land Rovers (Range, Range Sport and the LR3) made on the same platform?
As to your questions no they are not.
The Range Rover uses a platform that is internally called L322. The Range Rover is the heaviest unibody constructed passenger vehicle in the world. It is basically the only mass produced vehicle in the world that does not share its platform with some other vehicle.
Even many Bentley models now share there platforms with lesser Audi models.
The Range Rover Sport and LR3 both use the new T5 platform that is a hybrid unibody/body on frame design. Land Rover calls it integrated body frame design or IBF but it is also called a semi-moncoque platform.
The next generation Defender will use the T5 Platform. Their have been rumors that the next generation Range Rover will use a stretched T5 platform as well but that is uncofirmned. I have also heard rumors that the next generation Range Rover will use a new all aluminium unibody design to reduce the weight of the Range Rover by 1,000 lbs.
This new design would use technology developed by Jaguar for the all aluminium XJ and XK.
Yeah, I guess that bothers some people. Most of us grown-ups have learned to not let these things upset us.
"the salesperson should have either made a counter offer or leave the door open for the customer to increase the offer"
As long as the dealer is open for business I am able to make an offer or increase a previous offer. The salesman has nothing to do with it. If they are closed, I can even write my offer on a piece of paper and slide it under the door.
I totally agree with you. Your method works...evidently, mazda6iguy's offer was way too low and he had not made an offer even worth considering.
They always say, "Too soon old, too late smart."
I respond, "Yeah, but at least we get smart."
I agree with Voltaire, "I never knew a wise man who wished he were younger."
If they are closed, I can even write my offer on a piece of paper and slide it under the door.
Oh man, laughed out loud on that one.
By the way, is the point of this particular message board for salespeople perspectives?
just a view from the other side...
-thene
He presents his numbers and then you offer the equivalent of 3 pieces of candy corn in trade for the brand new vehicle. But the downside is, you took around 2 hours to get to offering the 3 pieces of candy corn.
By ridiculous, I mean an offer that is thousands of dollars below what we paid for the car.
I don't get rude or nasty but few things annoy me more than this does.
I have told customers.." I wish you had let me know right away what you were planning to offer. We could have both saved ourselves a lot of time on a busy day"
With a line like that, how wise could he really have been?
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
When we bought our Honda last year, we walked into the dealer and immediately gave the salesman our written offer. We didn't want to waste any of their time if our offer was too low.
Of course, the sales manager made a good effort to bump us up, but that was not a problem. We were not in a hurry, and we liked the salesman. Eventually, they accepted our offer.
Humm, a lot of the Grasshoppers I've met are the ones I've scrapped off my windshield.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
He presents his numbers and then you offer the equivalent of 3 pieces of candy corn in trade for the brand new vehicle. But the downside is, you took around 2 hours to get to offering the 3 pieces of candy corn.
From what I remember of the deal, I think my friend offered 11k cash (I know cash gets no special treatment) on a loaded Kia Rio that stickered at 14k something. I was prepared to step into the negotiations the split second before the salesman concluded everything. And after my friend thought it over, she later told me that the car was too underpowered for her liking. Anyway to sum it up.... the lesson learned from that experience is my friend should have done more research instead of just dropping by the dealership on the spur of the moment. And I think the salesman needed more training on his people skills.
Back in the early 90s I was shopping for an Olds Cutlass Supreme. I wanted the one with the optional 3.4 DOHC engine. That engine was an option in the base model, and it also came standard in the top of the line fully loaded International edition. So I go the dealer and the salesman tells me that they don’t have any cars in stock with that engine. He said that they just don’t keep 22 thousand dollar cars in stock. I said that I am not looking for the International edition, and that I want the base model. He gets angry and starts screaming at me: “I bet you would pay that for a [non-permissible content removed] car!” A little annoyed I told him that it would depend on the car. The guy just blew his gasket. He started cursing at me and stormed back into the store. Needless to say, I didn’t buy that car.
I agree. Most sensitive people would think this sales mans behavior rude. i.e Says "Then we are through" and walks away. A more professional response, " I am sorry sir, but we are just to far apart to make this work. Good day(shakes hand)".
In looking up MSRP and invoice on the Rio I see there is only a $700 difference on a 14k Rio. So, barring any rebates, this was an offer of $2,300 under invoice. :surprise: While I can see this salesperson getting upset and feeling his time was wasted, his response was uncalled for. Maybe, he was just having one of those days madmanmoo was writing about in an earlier post.
Speaking of time wasted, I don't quite understand the paranoia. If a deal isn't made, then both parties time is wasted. While I come to a dealership fully prepared and informed... the "average person" probably does not.
So, what are you gonna do salespeople? Turn away anybody who doesn't come running at you with an offer on a piece of paper? Some people like a thorough explanation of car features, multiple test drives and chit chat before feeling comfortable enough to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a purchase. It's okay for a dealership to mark up a car 4 or 5 thousand over what it is worth. But, if a customer offers 4 or 5k less than what a vehicle is worth... they are wasting the dealerships and sales persons time? Works both ways guys.
That might be where the problem sometimes lies. The markup on used vehicles is way above that for new ones, but there's no reason that every potential customer should know that. If they have negotiated, or even heard about, that kind of discount on a used vehicle, it's not unreasonable that they might expect it to be available on a new one.
In the case being discussed, I think a reasonable response from the salesperson would be to politely ask "How did you arrive at the figure you're offering?".
It seems that industry set themselves up for having people that come with those funny offer. All that secretive behavior, "qualifying" games, screamer ads, huge disparities in nominal margins (before all market adjustments, like incentives etc.) between brands or even within brands, incentives and most of all - long history of legendary ripoffs and questionable behaviors by some (not that few, unfortunately) creates situation in which "average" customer who is not really interested in how the business works, but of course wants to save money (who doesn't?) thinks "who knows how much they really paid for it - lets just shoot some number and we will go from there". A lot of people honestly believe that dealers get those cars basically for next to free, so asking for 25% discounts is probably reasonable in their mind.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
An interesting fact to be sure, but you do realise that doesn't necessarily make it better than anything else, maybe just more expensive than it needs to be?
Have bought a lot of cars and even in my younger stupid days when I sat through the four-square routine and negotiated on payments I knew enough to turn down undercoating, overpriced alarms, lojack, etc.
Just bought a 2007 Toyota, paid cash and turned down each and every option from F&I with 'No thank you' repeated until they stopped saying 'but but but..'. F&I gave up and just sat and munched on her lunch while I initialed the paperwork. She was quite curt if I asked anything at all /sigh.
Am curious what are the flags to get 'swarmed' as an up vs. getting ignored. The last two cars I purchased I did it all via the internet and walked through the back to fleet, check in hand after negotiating via phone and email but I have walked on the lot a few times and except for the ultra nice Saturn dealers have never gotten swarmed. I sometimes will look around the lot while my car is in the shop and no one bothers to even say hello. Are 30ish females wearing ratty jeans and a t-shirt not good bets?