Are you saying you want to get "swarmed"? If so exchange the ratty jeans for some Daisy Duke shorts, and the t-shirt for a low cut halter top.
But seriously, if you dress like you shop at the Salvation Army, I doubt many salesmen will think of you as a serious/capable buyer. Yes, I know... some are just that shallow.(Not any of ours of course!)
A few years back my wife and I were looking at a Suburban or Yukon XL for a growing family. We stopped by the GMC place to look at one which had everything we wanted, and even the color was perfect. We got in to take a test drive and the arm rests on both front seats fell right off. Then the lid for the center storage console wouldn't open, and when the salesman tried to get it open, be broke the lock (yes, it was locked, but good strength to rip it open). I won't list all of the fit and finish problems, but there were many others. The salesman was adamant the dealership would fix all of the problems, though he couldn't understand why we would be at all hesitant to buy a brand new vehicle (told it arrived just a week earlier) with interior items falling apart. Then, when I asked him if they would accept an invoice price less the rebates, he said they never sold anything at invoice. We eventually settled on a Suburban and driving by that GMC dealership, that Yukon sat there for at least three months before it vanished. What a surprise!
... so I went to the Chevy store last Monday to check out their reg cab fs trucks. Got a thing in the mail, see, about getting "an additional $1,000 GM Card rebate" so long as I buy something that is not fuel efficient.
As evidenced by a long list of vehicles that are eligible for the extra rebate. Notably absent are the Cobalt and the Pontiac Vibe. That last one would have been a great choice... bought an '04 three years ago and sold it this past spring, so I've got $1,500 in GM Card savings, and $2,500 might have pushed me over the edge. But never mind, a "2007 Silverado Classic" will do nicely.
I was treated very well indeed. No pressure, got some seat time in two of the trucks I was interested in. Helped me to sort out some space issues, plus I figured out how to *safely* put my 7-year-old in the middle seat. Voila: decent family transportation. Before I left, the manager lined up my GM Card information together with the other rebate stuff and worked up prices for two different trucks. Came out to about $4-500 over invoice, which I thought was extremely decent of him. Promised to be in touch.
Saturday, I returned two hours before closing. Got to do a short test drive on a V6 stick -- atrocious, too bouncy to drive smoothly, plus all the gravelly goodness of the 4.3 comes through intact. Then a 4.8l V8 auto -- not much better, tries to be a Lexus with smooth shifts and high revs.... in a truck??? So I took up less than an hour of their time and had some food for thought. Thanked them and left.
Wednesday I go back at lunchtime, and as I had arranged via email, took a 3rd truck out for an overnight. This was a V6 auto, and I really liked it. The roughnes of the 6 was tempered by the automatic, and the auto was calibrated to make use of the low-down torque. Not bad. Then I did the requisite gymnastics.. park the truck in the garage -- I have < 1in. clearance on either side unless I fold a mirror. With the bumper touching in front, I've got *just* enough room to comfortably walk past and get my bicycle out. So I decided to get it.
Worked up a price and emailed them an offer... $200 over invoice or some such; made it OTD and rebate to dealer. They didn't bother to reply, but when I came in to swap the truck for my old Mazda, they were ready with the paperwork. I thought the back-and-forth would bump me up a hundred bucks or two, but instead they'd written it up at $80 over my suggestion. Hey, I hadn't said firm, and I'm not bobst... I'm more of a live and let live kinda guy. I put $500 cash down and told them I'd pick it up when I'd sold my car, and for sure before the end of the month.
This is a high-volume Chevy dealer, and they were professional, courteous, and easy to deal with from start to finish. I'm impressed.
07 Reg cab shortbed V6 auto "work truck", custom cloth, cruise, CD, AC; $13,980 out-the-door. Couldn't say no to that.
Whoo-hoo! Anyone need a 153k '96 Millenia, cheap? ;-)
Hey, hard to go wrong at that price. Assuming you keep in for more than 3 months (CCBA hint...)
COnsidering how hard it is to find clean, decently priced, mildly used cars, 3 years from know with 25K on it you could easily sell it (at least in my fantasy world) for a good 10ish, right?
Overall, probably cheaper than getting a semi-beater, dumping money and time into it, and still losing money on depreciation.
Am curious what are the flags to get 'swarmed' as an up vs. getting ignored. The last two cars I purchased I did it all via the internet and walked through the back to fleet, check in hand after negotiating via phone and email but I have walked on the lot a few times and except for the ultra nice Saturn dealers have never gotten swarmed. I sometimes will look around the lot while my car is in the shop and no one bothers to even say hello. Are 30ish females wearing ratty jeans and a t-shirt not good bets?
This reminds me of something that happened to my father's friend at a Porsche dealership several years ago. The man pulled up in a dirty Jeep and got out to look at a Porsche 928. He was a senior citizen wearing old jeans, well-worn cowboy hat and boots, and had his shirt tail hanging halfway out. The guy was also sporting a brim and some relatively tacky turquoise jewelry. He had been to the farmer's market to pick up some produce that morning. Well, a young salesman aired him off and insulted him. He was treated like some sort of destitute hobo or something. Needless to say he got hacked off and drove to another Porsche dealership in a neighboring city. At the second dealership, not only did he pay cash for a new Porsche 928, he paid cash for a SECOND one for his son! Little did the first salesman know that the man was the President of America's largest freight carrier at the time. This man could have actually bought the whole dealership. Even back then he had a net worth of approximately $100 million. Just goes to show you that if you are selling cars, your next big sell could be from the lamest dresser, most haggard, or possibly the geekiest person you've ever encountered in your sales career.
When you see a salesperson get irritated with an offer, it's usually because you've offered something around 6k below invoice.
I think it’s pretty interesting that you hide your prices and then get upset when buyers don’t know what they are. At least you don’t hide the cars.
You have a range of prices at which you will sell a particular vehicle, but for the most part only publish the top number (MSRP). The price you hide is, naturally, your minium selling price. You are hoping that buyers will pay the list or close to it, and when they do the system is most profitable to you as a seller. You are willing to sell to highly knowledgeable Edmunds-type buyers who make low, but reasonable, offers on which you can make a quick mini. When you do, the system is most profitable to us as buyers.
In between the informed invoice-type buyer and the uninformed MSRP-type buyer, lies the vast majority of the car buying public. Inevitably, some will make offers below your costs. It is not reasonable for a salesman to be angry with such a customer. His real frustration is with his own business model.
One solution to this frustration is fixed-pricing, but you would have to give up the high-margin MSRP sales. Many Edmunds buyers don’t want it either because we would have to give up our low-margin deals.
The man pulled up in a dirty Jeep and got out to look at a Porsche 928. He was a senior citizen wearing old jeans...
...a young salesman aired him off and insulted him. He was treated like some sort of destitute hobo or something. Needless to say he got hacked off and drove to another Porsche dealership in a neighboring city. At the second dealership, not only did he pay cash for a new Porsche 928, he paid cash for a SECOND one for his son!
We have heard a lot of stories like this and the salespeople that hang out here say this is a ‘Cardinal Sin’ and most say they would never do it and I believe them. If I were a customer that this happened to I would feel it is perfectly justified to drive over to the offending dealership, find the arrogant salesman and his sales manager, and show them the car I just bought from their competitor.
I know most of the buyers here are more reserved and won’t agree with me, saying, ‘get on with your life and enjoy your new car’. However, I’m not so reserved and I would definitely do it.
In fact, I’d do it so fast I would probably get a speeding ticket driving over there.
A lesson has to be taught under these circumstances and this method suits me just fine.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I have only gotten an attitude from one salesman. It was a Honda dealership, guy came up and I was up front with him saying I was just looking and wasn't interested in buying just yet. Guy was pretty friendly until he started pestering me for my contact information. He got ugly when I wouldn't give him a phone number.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Two of my biggest car collector customers basicly dress like the modern urban version of that guy.
One wears jeans and a raggy hippy looking dyed t-shirt with huge holes piereced in his ears and his hair spiked up with gell.
He buys about 300,000 dollars of cars a year from me alone and another 500,000 dollars worth of Mercedes or BMW vehicles.
One of my other clients is a former power lifter who owns several gyms and fitness centers. He dreses in work out clothes most of the time and also buys about 300,000 dollars of vehicles a year. This is the guy that let me drive his F430.
Sheesh, give the guy a phone number - any number will do.
Sorry I don't want to give him my number and have him call me repeatedly asking for a sale. To give him any number would be to lie to him and I just don't play those games. I was open and honest with him from the start I wasn't going to start to lie then.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
We've all heard the stories of these unbelievable 'ups'. Dirty worn out bums walking in off the streets with brown bags full of cash wanting to buy half the lot. Does it happen? It sure does. Does it happen often? It sure doesn't.
I get mildly irritated when I hear these stories, because they are just that, stories. These remind me of motivational talks that people give us. Canned responses to try and combat the problems that plague salespeople. The bottom line is, you don't know who you are going to get during a day, but you can sure get a good idea. Treat everyone well and work for the sale. If they are a stroke, launch them as quickly as possible. Your time is important. If they are talking about a sale in the future, take your time with them and get their contact information. Most folks respect and appreciate courtesy when you are dealing with them and will respond to that with loyalty. Follow up with them in a couple of months and ask for the business again.
Real life example from last Saturday. I met a younger man driving a Toyota Tacoma. He told me that he was just looking and was planning on buying in the middle of December when his lease was up. Long story short, I talked to him about the benefits of trading out of a lease and he decided to move quicker than 2 months down the line. 4 days after I talked with him, he's enjoying a brand new Accord Coupe and I'm enjoying a nice commission.
Moral of the story: Don't worry about those folks that you might have missed. The good 'ups' will always look good. You might find a diamond in the rough, but it will take a lot of digging. Your manager will tell you stories like the one above in order to get you to meet everyone that comes on the lot. DON'T DO IT. Cherry picking is one of the greatest skills I ever learned.
Cherry picking is one of the greatest skills I ever learned.
I have no problem with "cherry picking" as long as the picker is good in picking and treats those "unworthy ones" in a civil manner.
I read about a reporter who posed as a homeless and tried to shop for a vehicle. He was ignored, threatened, beaten up, until he arrived to a Volvo dealer, who gave him a full presentation including upholstry choices and other stuff. When asked why he reporteadly answered "Sir, today you may not be in a good place, but tomorrow you fortune may change and I would like you to become my customer".
when i was selling cars, i had this woman call one day on a used mustang v6 coupe in silver that we had on the lot. i took a quick peek out the window to see if it was still there, and told her that it was still available. she said she'd be down that afternoon to look at it with her son.
in the meantime, the other store was finishing up writing a deal on it, so when she gets to the store, she is FUMING, because the car that WAS there just a few short hours ago, was now sold to someone else. she's hollering about bait and switch, and how she wants to report us to the BBB and all that kind of stuff.
the owner comes over, tells her that these things happen, and that we are going to locate her a USED car just like the one we had, and sell it at the price we had it for. so she calls all her dealer friends, finds one about 2 hours away, we go get it, bring it back, and sell it to her, pretty much at a loss, by the time we pay the dealer, sell it for the price we had ours, plus the cost of sending a driver to pick it up. sometimes you do what you gotta do...
That's a very nice story. That particular salesman is not mentioned by name because he wasn't able to support himself selling 4 cars a month and tourguiding homeless people through the lot.
See my point? It might be 'nice', but it just ain't good business.
What about if I show up with a handful of my printed internet research? :P
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
This comment cannot be made by someone in the business.
If you want a no haggle buying experience, go to Saturn or Scion or Carmax. When you walk away from that deal, do you feel good?
The chilling facts are that people want to negotiate. They want that "feeling" of accomplishment that they got a great deal. And in that business model of no haggle, you are paying a decent amount of gross profit.
The 'average' buyer has an idea of what is going on in car sales. The amount of 'laydowns' walking through the door will always be a constant, but there aren't a ton of them. There is just a certain group of people who don't care about pricing, like what they see and buy. These are typically the happiest people buying a new car. They don't sweat it.
One of the other sales guys mentioned the best way to combat someone's offer that is unreasonably low. "How did you come up with that offer?" or "What are you basing that offer on?" This way you can either show that they are being unreasonable or find out they are lunatics. Typically, if someone is offering a retardedly low number and not moving off of it, it is because they are strokes. That's what is irritating, not the business model.
It is a second-hand story, so you never know what is true.
I would be cautious however, if I were you, in putting absolute statements. You never know what the long story is - perhaps his next customer paid for it, perhaps it was a slow day anyway (it's not like they sell Volvos off the truck by pound). Selling Hondas and Toyotas on small margin - anybody not buying "today" is a waste of time. Selling Volvos, Porshes & BMWs - quite a bit of slow time, perhaps even to get some entertainment and fit a hobo to a new station wagon. Who knows?
What's good and works for you may not be good for others and vice versa - it's all I'm saying here.
i had a guy come in once on a nissan titan. he scoffed when i showed him our offer, and he said his buddy up in the boston area had just gotten one for $10000 off sticker. i asked him which dealership, because if thats true, i want one too! he said he was gonna go to that dealership to buy one, and i told him to have a safe trip. i sure wonder if he ever made it up there only to realize that he was spewing a bunch of baloney. with the rebate and invoice pricing, we were only about 5500 off sticker...so $10k off sticker is just plain ludicrous.
i think he was just trying to get me to match, but who knows. i moved on to a new customer and soon forgot about him...
The chilling facts are that people want to negotiate. They want that "feeling" of accomplishment that they got a great deal. And in that business model of no haggle, you are paying a decent amount of gross profit.
Perhaps, but maybe not. They somehow don't haggle buying groceries, TVs, or washing machines (OK - some do, but how many?). Most people haggle at dealerships because they are trained to do so and they basically know they have to. I would risk saying that if given a legitimate chance of no haggle majority of population would gladly follow the new rules as long as they have confidence they're for real.
No haggle model would mean a major control shift towards customer and that is major reason for reluctance, IMHO. It's simple - if it was better for dealers, they'd do it. Somehow jackpot system (one out of 10 pays for Hawaii vacation for all everybody, including receptionist, 1 out of 10 gets it below real cost, rest falls in between - or whatever the proportion is) is what they like and believe is good for them.
I would say this - you like it as it is - so then don't complain about people coming and trying to get it for free. If you have no problem taking $6K on $20K car, please don't be upset if someone attempts to steal one from you. You elected for such system, we all have to live with it - so tough it out.
I know most of the buyers here are more reserved and won’t agree with me, saying, ‘get on with your life and enjoy your new car’. However, I’m not so reserved and I would definitely do it.
I wouldn't.
Why teach the jerk that people of means don't need to "dress up" to impress anyone....and certainly not a car salesman.
For the most part, older and experienced sales people know this.
I have negotiated on every big ticket item I've bought. Any time there is a salesperson involved, I will try and negotiate. TV's, washer and dryer, house....you name it. There is no salesperson involved in the buying of groceries at a big retail store, but if I'm at a farmer's market, I'm negotiating.
Dino, it most certainly isn't just cars that gets negotiated on. People love getting a good deal and feeling like they did. Also, look outside the American market as well. I was in China 4 months ago. Holy crap, they negotiate on virtually everything. Wide open free market that they have going on there. It was very impressive.
I would say this - you like it as it is - so then don't complain about people coming and trying to get it for free. If you have no problem taking $6K on $20K car, please don't be upset if someone attempts to steal one from you. You elected for such system, we all have to live with it - so tough it out.
Huh? I don't even understand what you're talking about. Do you sell cars? Are you in any sort of sales that has negotiating? Look at my previous analogy and put yourself in a salesperson's shoes. Let's say that you have spent 10k on a product to get it to your showroom and someone offers you nothing for it...... That wouldn't irritate you? Let's say they offered 1k for it and had nothing reasonable to base that offer on. That doesn't bother you? I think this is just a normal human response to stupidity. Every business has rules and we all try to play by them.
The chilling facts are that people want to negotiate.
I would think that the success of no haggle dealerships shows that that statement is not always true. Many people out there hate to negotiate while many people love to. But the fact is not everyone wants to negotiate, they want a reasonable price and no hassle.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
We're talking in generalities, of course. The problem lies in the statement of "reasonable price". People still try to negotiate at no-haggle dealerships. Who set the "reasonable price"?
Negotiating dealers try to do it with MSRP, so what makes Saturn any different? They just get to keep all the profit. The unfortunate part is the product just isn't that good.
I guess in summary, if we went to a no haggle policy, I think that would be awesome, because we would be making awesome money constantly. The consumer can get a better deal by negotiating. That's why it's still there.
Look at my previous analogy and put yourself in a salesperson's shoes. Let's say that you have spent 10k on a product to get it to your showroom and someone offers you nothing for it...... That wouldn't irritate you?
Of course it would. How about this: I come to a dealership for a popular small car and all I see is every single one of them has a $50 worth "protection package" with price tag of $799, the salesman babbles about how "rare" they are and he just sold one for $2000 over sticker and after long back and forth F&I guy thinks I should pay 12% APR with 720 Beacon. And of course buy his extended warranty for twice as much as it's worth. Did I mention also $699 "doc" fee (why not $1299 or better $1999?).
So - as long as there are jokers like that in your industry, don't be surprised and upset with jokers asking if they can have one for free...
I agree with dino001 that "cherry picking" is fine as long as the perceived "non-cherries" are treated in a civil manner- which is often NOT the case.
Also, as a self-proclaimed cherry picker, how would you ever know that the ones you've pigeonholed as being "non-cherries" were actually the real deal? It's kind of self-fulfilling when you cherry pick and and assume the ones you THINK aren't real customers don't actually come back to buy from you, but only because you were condescending, etc. When I go to a dealership that "profiles" me because I look young, don't wear a rolex, and am dressed in a T-shirt and jeans, and then either ignores me or treats me rudely, I sure as heck won't go back there to buy from them.
Another way to put it is: if i go to your (Porsche, BMW) dealership looking like a regular guy, and you profile me as a non-cherry and treat me accordingly, and then I go down the street to buy my Boxster or M5, how would you ever know that you were wrong about me? You'd probably go home thinking that you did a good job that day separating the cherries from the pits-
the best way to combat someone's offer that is unreasonably low. "How did you come up with that offer?"
An legitimate response from buyer to that intrusive question may be, "May I see your books and invoice statements to see how you arrived at the price you are wanting to sell the vehicle for?"
That is exactly what a GM asked me when I presented an offer maybe $400 below invoice on my Mazda MPV. I suppose he thought I was just pulling a number out of the air, and he could "spin" his way into a higher price. My offer certainly wasn't unreasonably low though. So, I told the GM I got my pricing info from Consumer Reviews(sorry Edmunds ). I could almost see the air going out of his sails. He leaned back in his chair and grimaced... "Well...they are usually pretty accurate"
Why it may be irritating to be offered an unreasonable low price... I wouldn't put the blame on the customer. It's just how the rules are written and how game is played. Don't like it...don't play.
And this is why you negotiate..... If you think it's unreasonable, don't buy it. The market dictates price....which you in effect means 'you' dictate price. Do your thing!
Exactly - but you say it's OK for me to put up with jokers asking for thousands above market value and just "negotiate", but when a joker asks you for thosands less than your bottom line, suddenly it becomes "irritating", "not worth your time", "bad business", etc?
Can't have it both, man. Either take jokes entirely out of the system (on both sides), or keep them and tough it out the best you can with a smile...
I still laugh about the story one of the salespeople told about the guy who negotiated with a green pea on a hot selling car (a Mazda, if memory serves). The green pea inked a deal that was over $1000 less than the going market price for that model. The sales manager was going to honor the deal but prior to delivery the buyer calls up and tells the SM that he's talked with some "expert" friends and he's decided that the dealer is screwing him over-he wants an even better price or the deal is off. Needless to say, the SM gladly agreed to ashcan the sales contract. After shopping the price a bit the shrewd buyer returned expecting the SM to honor the original deal- and became irate when the SM refused. Poetic justice.
Cherry picking normally has nothing to do with how you are dressed. I wish some more salespeople would chime in here. It has everything to do with what you are driving, when you come in, what you say, who you are with.... I don't give a crap about how you are dressed.
A grandma and her daughter dressed in clown suits.....I'd be all over them. Mom, dad and son looking at Civic all dressed as monkeys......I'd be all over them. Single dude pulling up in an '06 Camry with a drive-out plate on the back. Not as interested. In fact, some of the people who I prefer not working with are people who pull up in Mercedes, Volvos, or giant domestic Suv's. Why? Because I typically don't get along with Mercedes and Volvo buyers and domestic SUV buyers are completely buried. There are all kinds of different reasons as to why you may or may not work someone. This is just my own system.
I'm not saying that my cherry picking is foolproof, it's just worked enough for me to stick to it. I may miss deals, but I'm not interested in thinking about that. Think of the time investment. Stick with the ups that have high probability of buying, that way you don't waste time on low probability buyers. Time management.
Negotiating dealers try to do it with MSRP, so what makes Saturn any different? They just get to keep all the profit. The unfortunate part is the product just isn't that good.
My understanding is with Saturn their isn't as much profit put into the pricing as with most makes. As for it not being as good, while I don't particually like their styling most people I know with Saturns have had as good luck (or better) than those I know with Hondas and Toyotas.
I guess in summary, if we went to a no haggle policy, I think that would be awesome, because we would be making awesome money constantly. The consumer can get a better deal by negotiating.
Maybe maybe not, I really have researched it and/or ran the numbers but It would be safe to say that if it went to a no haggle policy then those who negotiate would end up paying more (but not a whole lot) and the dealerships and sales people would not make awesome money constantly.
Lets face it even with no haggle shopping a Honda Civic is still a Honda Civic regardless of where you buy it. That means that Honda dealerships in a particular area have to be competitively priced among themselves (not to mention they have to consider what substitutes are going for).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
if you don't pick and choose who to work with based on what you think you know about certain types of buyers (not saying that stereotyping is right here...) you're gonna find yourself wasting a lot of time. when you work in the business, you have to make sure that each and every customer you work with is going to give you the best opportunity to sell something. sorry to say, but thats what were here to do. we don't offer our services for free. and if you aren't buying in the next 6 months, you shouldn't be offended that someone may not want to work with you.
most salespeople don't get paid unless they sell something...its just the nature of the business. i understand as a customer that you want great customer service. well if the salesperson were getting paid to show you 4 different cars for when you decide to buy a year from now, it wouldn't be such an issue. these are things you have to take into consideration...sure, you'll miss some deals that way, but its about the odds. CHANCES are, that if you say you aren't buying for 6 months that a) we may never see you again, b) you aren't gonna change your mind and buy today) and c) we may not be here then anyways...
I'm not a car salesperson, but would be very interested to know what the "typical" range of the middle 75% of buyers is. I'm aware there are those that seriously over-pay. There are also some that get great deals one one reason or another. However, I would bet the vast majority of sales of a particular model at a particular time come down to maybe $200 difference. Thoughts? :confuse:
Listen... you determine the market. The consumer does. The price can go as high as the consumer will pay, however it can only go so low. There is a cutoff point because a good business model doesn't allow you to sell it for less than you paid for it. Make sense?
In the same way that you don't like doing business with 'jokers' who try and sell cars for more than market value, we don't do business or entertain 'jokers' who offer us stupid deals.
A major difference between what is happening to you and what is happening to us..... the customer comes to us... we don't come to you. You know what the dealership is advertising and you can look at their window stickers and see if there are any addendums. Unfortunately, the best way for me to 'shop' for customers are my cherry picking abilities.
So for a customer to get irate and complain about the 'joker' dealership. Well, I have little sympathy for them as well. Go to another dealer. Stop wasting your time. I do. I'm irritated that someone wasted my time with an illegitimate offer, but then I broom them out the door and meet the next one. Keep shaking hands, keep smiling.
They somehow don't haggle buying groceries, TVs, or washing machines (OK - some do, but how many?). Most people haggle at dealerships because they are trained to do so and they basically know they have to.
not true. This is American corporate marketing at its finest.
If you put a salesman at the grocery store, the customer will haggle there too. The absence of a face in a supermarket is what makes the customers "not haggle".
Exaclty - "no haggle pricing" does not have to mean "MSRP". At the mall we see plenty of "list price" items with "or price" store tag. Most of it is of course bunch of balooney, but the idea is the same - manufacturer sets some kind of price, whether inflated or not, the merchant sets the price for his/her market, what he/she thinks will be supported. If the price is wrong, the lot gets overstocked quickly. If it's too low, the lot gets cleaned out too fast. I suspect the overall gross profit would be similar.
Then there are potential synergies - probably less sales force/management is required with "no haggle pricing", as the sale can be done quickly. Salespeople would need to be retrained, of course, to concentrate on the product and the "deal of the month" rather than "profit extraction" efforts. Average paying customer visit is likely to be shorter, as price negotiation time is cut.
When the transition is ended, there are savings from that time. They could be consummated by the dealer ("awesome profits") or passed to the customer ("nobody beats our price").
Your right, it can work both ways. If I make a mistake penciling a deal and its been presented to the buyer I will eat it, but I also tell them I made a mistake and if they leave the showroom the deal is off the table. It happend twice last month. One was a $1000 mistake. I can't tell you how many people leave and return after visiting a few other dealers only to find out they shopped themselves out of a spectacular deal. Most buyer don't have any idea when a great deal fly's up and hits them on the head.
Every now and again I'll have to take one of the ups that I know are terrible. It's not guesswork with these individuals. I know. They would like our best drive out quote. Of course they do.
If I have one of these ups, I take them directly to my desk. Ask what price they want to be at. Tell them we can't do it. Excuse myself and move onto the next up.
Folks who are not in retail have no idea what we go through everyday. You have to adapt to survive.
Maybe you weren't on the floor much, but I've negotiated many, many deals at Sears. In fact it's one of the reasons they're always on my list whenever I need to purchase something they carry.
Comments
Well, she offered 3000.00 below sticker which was probably 1500.00 less than the dealer paid for the car.
Yeah,the salesperson definatly was in the wrong but your friend did make a ridiculous on a car she didn't even like!
But seriously, if you dress like you shop at the Salvation Army, I doubt many salesmen will think of you as a serious/capable buyer. Yes, I know... some are just that shallow.(Not any of ours of course!)
As evidenced by a long list of vehicles that are eligible for the extra rebate. Notably absent are the Cobalt and the Pontiac Vibe. That last one would have been a great choice... bought an '04 three years ago and sold it this past spring, so I've got $1,500 in GM Card savings, and $2,500 might have pushed me over the edge. But never mind, a "2007 Silverado Classic" will do nicely.
I was treated very well indeed. No pressure, got some seat time in two of the trucks I was interested in. Helped me to sort out some space issues, plus I figured out how to *safely* put my 7-year-old in the middle seat. Voila: decent family transportation. Before I left, the manager lined up my GM Card information together with the other rebate stuff and worked up prices for two different trucks. Came out to about $4-500 over invoice, which I thought was extremely decent of him. Promised to be in touch.
Saturday, I returned two hours before closing. Got to do a short test drive on a V6 stick -- atrocious, too bouncy to drive smoothly, plus all the gravelly goodness of the 4.3 comes through intact. Then a 4.8l V8 auto -- not much better, tries to be a Lexus with smooth shifts and high revs.... in a truck??? So I took up less than an hour of their time and had some food for thought. Thanked them and left.
Wednesday I go back at lunchtime, and as I had arranged via email, took a 3rd truck out for an overnight. This was a V6 auto, and I really liked it. The roughnes of the 6 was tempered by the automatic, and the auto was calibrated to make use of the low-down torque. Not bad. Then I did the requisite gymnastics.. park the truck in the garage -- I have < 1in. clearance on either side unless I fold a mirror. With the bumper touching in front, I've got *just* enough room to comfortably walk past and get my bicycle out. So I decided to get it.
Worked up a price and emailed them an offer... $200 over invoice or some such; made it OTD and rebate to dealer. They didn't bother to reply, but when I came in to swap the truck for my old Mazda, they were ready with the paperwork. I thought the back-and-forth would bump me up a hundred bucks or two, but instead they'd written it up at $80 over my suggestion. Hey, I hadn't said firm, and I'm not bobst... I'm more of a live and let live kinda guy. I put $500 cash down and told them I'd pick it up when I'd sold my car, and for sure before the end of the month.
This is a high-volume Chevy dealer, and they were professional, courteous, and easy to deal with from start to finish. I'm impressed.
07 Reg cab shortbed V6 auto "work truck", custom cloth, cruise, CD, AC; $13,980 out-the-door.
Couldn't say no to that.
Whoo-hoo! Anyone need a 153k '96 Millenia, cheap? ;-)
-Mathias
COnsidering how hard it is to find clean, decently priced, mildly used cars, 3 years from know with 25K on it you could easily sell it (at least in my fantasy world) for a good 10ish, right?
Overall, probably cheaper than getting a semi-beater, dumping money and time into it, and still losing money on depreciation.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
This reminds me of something that happened to my father's friend at a Porsche dealership several years ago. The man pulled up in a dirty Jeep and got out to look at a Porsche 928. He was a senior citizen wearing old jeans, well-worn cowboy hat and boots, and had his shirt tail hanging halfway out. The guy was also sporting a brim and some relatively tacky turquoise jewelry. He had been to the farmer's market to pick up some produce that morning. Well, a young salesman aired him off and insulted him. He was treated like some sort of destitute hobo or something. Needless to say he got hacked off and drove to another Porsche dealership in a neighboring city. At the second dealership, not only did he pay cash for a new Porsche 928, he paid cash for a SECOND one for his son! Little did the first salesman know that the man was the President of America's largest freight carrier at the time. This man could have actually bought the whole dealership. Even back then he had a net worth of approximately $100 million. Just goes to show you that if you are selling cars, your next big sell could be from the lamest dresser, most haggard, or possibly the geekiest person you've ever encountered in your sales career.
Ron M.
I think it’s pretty interesting that you hide your prices and then get upset when buyers don’t know what they are. At least you don’t hide the cars.
You have a range of prices at which you will sell a particular vehicle, but for the most part only publish the top number (MSRP). The price you hide is, naturally, your minium selling price. You are hoping that buyers will pay the list or close to it, and when they do the system is most profitable to you as a seller. You are willing to sell to highly knowledgeable Edmunds-type buyers who make low, but reasonable, offers on which you can make a quick mini. When you do, the system is most profitable to us as buyers.
In between the informed invoice-type buyer and the uninformed MSRP-type buyer, lies the vast majority of the car buying public. Inevitably, some will make offers below your costs. It is not reasonable for a salesman to be angry with such a customer. His real frustration is with his own business model.
One solution to this frustration is fixed-pricing, but you would have to give up the high-margin MSRP sales. Many Edmunds buyers don’t want it either because we would have to give up our low-margin deals.
...a young salesman aired him off and insulted him. He was treated like some sort of destitute hobo or something. Needless to say he got hacked off and drove to another Porsche dealership in a neighboring city. At the second dealership, not only did he pay cash for a new Porsche 928, he paid cash for a SECOND one for his son!
We have heard a lot of stories like this and the salespeople that hang out here say this is a ‘Cardinal Sin’ and most say they would never do it and I believe them. If I were a customer that this happened to I would feel it is perfectly justified to drive over to the offending dealership, find the arrogant salesman and his sales manager, and show them the car I just bought from their competitor.
I know most of the buyers here are more reserved and won’t agree with me, saying, ‘get on with your life and enjoy your new car’. However, I’m not so reserved and I would definitely do it.
In fact, I’d do it so fast I would probably get a speeding ticket driving over there.
A lesson has to be taught under these circumstances and this method suits me just fine.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I have only gotten an attitude from one salesman. It was a Honda dealership, guy came up and I was up front with him saying I was just looking and wasn't interested in buying just yet. Guy was pretty friendly until he started pestering me for my contact information. He got ugly when I wouldn't give him a phone number.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
One wears jeans and a raggy hippy looking dyed t-shirt with huge holes piereced in his ears and his hair spiked up with gell.
He buys about 300,000 dollars of cars a year from me alone and another 500,000 dollars worth of Mercedes or BMW vehicles.
One of my other clients is a former power lifter who owns several gyms and fitness centers. He dreses in work out clothes most of the time and also buys about 300,000 dollars of vehicles a year. This is the guy that let me drive his F430.
Sorry I don't want to give him my number and have him call me repeatedly asking for a sale. To give him any number would be to lie to him and I just don't play those games. I was open and honest with him from the start I wasn't going to start to lie then.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I get mildly irritated when I hear these stories, because they are just that, stories. These remind me of motivational talks that people give us. Canned responses to try and combat the problems that plague salespeople. The bottom line is, you don't know who you are going to get during a day, but you can sure get a good idea. Treat everyone well and work for the sale. If they are a stroke, launch them as quickly as possible. Your time is important. If they are talking about a sale in the future, take your time with them and get their contact information. Most folks respect and appreciate courtesy when you are dealing with them and will respond to that with loyalty. Follow up with them in a couple of months and ask for the business again.
Real life example from last Saturday. I met a younger man driving a Toyota Tacoma. He told me that he was just looking and was planning on buying in the middle of December when his lease was up. Long story short, I talked to him about the benefits of trading out of a lease and he decided to move quicker than 2 months down the line. 4 days after I talked with him, he's enjoying a brand new Accord Coupe and I'm enjoying a nice commission.
Moral of the story: Don't worry about those folks that you might have missed. The good 'ups' will always look good. You might find a diamond in the rough, but it will take a lot of digging. Your manager will tell you stories like the one above in order to get you to meet everyone that comes on the lot. DON'T DO IT. Cherry picking is one of the greatest skills I ever learned.
I have no problem with "cherry picking" as long as the picker is good in picking and treats those "unworthy ones" in a civil manner.
I read about a reporter who posed as a homeless and tried to shop for a vehicle. He was ignored, threatened, beaten up, until he arrived to a Volvo dealer, who gave him a full presentation including upholstry choices and other stuff. When asked why he reporteadly answered "Sir, today you may not be in a good place, but tomorrow you fortune may change and I would like you to become my customer".
2018 430i Gran Coupe
in the meantime, the other store was finishing up writing a deal on it, so when she gets to the store, she is FUMING, because the car that WAS there just a few short hours ago, was now sold to someone else. she's hollering about bait and switch, and how she wants to report us to the BBB and all that kind of stuff.
the owner comes over, tells her that these things happen, and that we are going to locate her a USED car just like the one we had, and sell it at the price we had it for. so she calls all her dealer friends, finds one about 2 hours away, we go get it, bring it back, and sell it to her, pretty much at a loss, by the time we pay the dealer, sell it for the price we had ours, plus the cost of sending a driver to pick it up. sometimes you do what you gotta do...
-thene
See my point? It might be 'nice', but it just ain't good business.
I'm not sure what will get you swarmed but if you want to be ignored get out of the car carrying a folder or a pad/pencil.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
If you want a no haggle buying experience, go to Saturn or Scion or Carmax. When you walk away from that deal, do you feel good?
The chilling facts are that people want to negotiate. They want that "feeling" of accomplishment that they got a great deal. And in that business model of no haggle, you are paying a decent amount of gross profit.
The 'average' buyer has an idea of what is going on in car sales. The amount of 'laydowns' walking through the door will always be a constant, but there aren't a ton of them. There is just a certain group of people who don't care about pricing, like what they see and buy. These are typically the happiest people buying a new car. They don't sweat it.
One of the other sales guys mentioned the best way to combat someone's offer that is unreasonably low. "How did you come up with that offer?" or "What are you basing that offer on?" This way you can either show that they are being unreasonable or find out they are lunatics. Typically, if someone is offering a retardedly low number and not moving off of it, it is because they are strokes. That's what is irritating, not the business model.
I would be cautious however, if I were you, in putting absolute statements. You never know what the long story is - perhaps his next customer paid for it, perhaps it was a slow day anyway (it's not like they sell Volvos off the truck by pound). Selling Hondas and Toyotas on small margin - anybody not buying "today" is a waste of time. Selling Volvos, Porshes & BMWs - quite a bit of slow time, perhaps even to get some entertainment and fit a hobo to a new station wagon. Who knows?
What's good and works for you may not be good for others and vice versa - it's all I'm saying here.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
i think he was just trying to get me to match, but who knows. i moved on to a new customer and soon forgot about him...
-thene
Perhaps, but maybe not. They somehow don't haggle buying groceries, TVs, or washing machines (OK - some do, but how many?). Most people haggle at dealerships because they are trained to do so and they basically know they have to. I would risk saying that if given a legitimate chance of no haggle majority of population would gladly follow the new rules as long as they have confidence they're for real.
No haggle model would mean a major control shift towards customer and that is major reason for reluctance, IMHO. It's simple - if it was better for dealers, they'd do it. Somehow jackpot system (one out of 10 pays for Hawaii vacation for all everybody, including receptionist, 1 out of 10 gets it below real cost, rest falls in between - or whatever the proportion is) is what they like and believe is good for them.
I would say this - you like it as it is - so then don't complain about people coming and trying to get it for free. If you have no problem taking $6K on $20K car, please don't be upset if someone attempts to steal one from you. You elected for such system, we all have to live with it - so tough it out.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I wouldn't.
Why teach the jerk that people of means don't need to "dress up" to impress anyone....and certainly not a car salesman.
For the most part, older and experienced sales people know this.
Dino, it most certainly isn't just cars that gets negotiated on. People love getting a good deal and feeling like they did. Also, look outside the American market as well. I was in China 4 months ago. Holy crap, they negotiate on virtually everything. Wide open free market that they have going on there. It was very impressive.
I would say this - you like it as it is - so then don't complain about people coming and trying to get it for free. If you have no problem taking $6K on $20K car, please don't be upset if someone attempts to steal one from you. You elected for such system, we all have to live with it - so tough it out.
Huh? I don't even understand what you're talking about. Do you sell cars? Are you in any sort of sales that has negotiating? Look at my previous analogy and put yourself in a salesperson's shoes. Let's say that you have spent 10k on a product to get it to your showroom and someone offers you nothing for it...... That wouldn't irritate you? Let's say they offered 1k for it and had nothing reasonable to base that offer on. That doesn't bother you?
I think this is just a normal human response to stupidity.
Every business has rules and we all try to play by them.
Hmmmmmm, seems like a rather insensitive comment.
I would think that the success of no haggle dealerships shows that that statement is not always true. Many people out there hate to negotiate while many people love to. But the fact is not everyone wants to negotiate, they want a reasonable price and no hassle.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Negotiating dealers try to do it with MSRP, so what makes Saturn any different? They just get to keep all the profit. The unfortunate part is the product just isn't that good.
I guess in summary, if we went to a no haggle policy, I think that would be awesome, because we would be making awesome money constantly. The consumer can get a better deal by negotiating. That's why it's still there.
Same here (with the exception of one real big ticket item) and if i think that I can bring someone down in price I will.
If anyone wants to sharpen their negotiation skills shop at a flea market sometime.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Of course it would. How about this: I come to a dealership for a popular small car and all I see is every single one of them has a $50 worth "protection package" with price tag of $799, the salesman babbles about how "rare" they are and he just sold one for $2000 over sticker and after long back and forth F&I guy thinks I should pay 12% APR with 720 Beacon. And of course buy his extended warranty for twice as much as it's worth. Did I mention also $699 "doc" fee (why not $1299 or better $1999?).
So - as long as there are jokers like that in your industry, don't be surprised and upset with jokers asking if they can have one for free...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Also, as a self-proclaimed cherry picker, how would you ever know that the ones you've pigeonholed as being "non-cherries" were actually the real deal? It's kind of self-fulfilling when you cherry pick and and assume the ones you THINK aren't real customers don't actually come back to buy from you, but only because you were condescending, etc. When I go to a dealership that "profiles" me because I look young, don't wear a rolex, and am dressed in a T-shirt and jeans, and then either ignores me or treats me rudely, I sure as heck won't go back there to buy from them.
Another way to put it is: if i go to your (Porsche, BMW) dealership looking like a regular guy, and you profile me as a non-cherry and treat me accordingly, and then I go down the street to buy my Boxster or M5, how would you ever know that you were wrong about me? You'd probably go home thinking that you did a good job that day separating the cherries from the pits-
An legitimate response from buyer to that intrusive question may be, "May I see your books and invoice statements to see how you arrived at the price you are wanting to sell the vehicle for?"
That is exactly what a GM asked me when I presented an offer maybe $400 below invoice on my Mazda MPV. I suppose he thought I was just pulling a number out of the air, and he could "spin" his way into a higher price. My offer certainly wasn't unreasonably low though. So, I told the GM I got my pricing info from Consumer Reviews(sorry Edmunds
Why it may be irritating to be offered an unreasonable low price... I wouldn't put the blame on the customer. It's just how the rules are written and how game is played. Don't like it...don't play.
The dirty little secret is that Sears and Best Buy among many others will haggle on those big ticket items.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Can't have it both, man. Either take jokes entirely out of the system (on both sides), or keep them and tough it out the best you can with a smile...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
A grandma and her daughter dressed in clown suits.....I'd be all over them. Mom, dad and son looking at Civic all dressed as monkeys......I'd be all over them. Single dude pulling up in an '06 Camry with a drive-out plate on the back. Not as interested. In fact, some of the people who I prefer not working with are people who pull up in Mercedes, Volvos, or giant domestic Suv's. Why? Because I typically don't get along with Mercedes and Volvo buyers and domestic SUV buyers are completely buried. There are all kinds of different reasons as to why you may or may not work someone. This is just my own system.
I'm not saying that my cherry picking is foolproof, it's just worked enough for me to stick to it. I may miss deals, but I'm not interested in thinking about that. Think of the time investment. Stick with the ups that have high probability of buying, that way you don't waste time on low probability buyers. Time management.
Basically its what the market will support.
Negotiating dealers try to do it with MSRP, so what makes Saturn any different? They just get to keep all the profit. The unfortunate part is the product just isn't that good.
My understanding is with Saturn their isn't as much profit put into the pricing as with most makes. As for it not being as good, while I don't particually like their styling most people I know with Saturns have had as good luck (or better) than those I know with Hondas and Toyotas.
I guess in summary, if we went to a no haggle policy, I think that would be awesome, because we would be making awesome money constantly. The consumer can get a better deal by negotiating.
Maybe maybe not, I really have researched it and/or ran the numbers but It would be safe to say that if it went to a no haggle policy then those who negotiate would end up paying more (but not a whole lot) and the dealerships and sales people would not make awesome money constantly.
Lets face it even with no haggle shopping a Honda Civic is still a Honda Civic regardless of where you buy it. That means that Honda dealerships in a particular area have to be competitively priced among themselves (not to mention they have to consider what substitutes are going for).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
most salespeople don't get paid unless they sell something...its just the nature of the business. i understand as a customer that you want great customer service. well if the salesperson were getting paid to show you 4 different cars for when you decide to buy a year from now, it wouldn't be such an issue. these are things you have to take into consideration...sure, you'll miss some deals that way, but its about the odds. CHANCES are, that if you say you aren't buying for 6 months that a) we may never see you again, b) you aren't gonna change your mind and buy today) and c) we may not be here then anyways...
things to think about...
thene
Listen... you determine the market. The consumer does. The price can go as high as the consumer will pay, however it can only go so low. There is a cutoff point because a good business model doesn't allow you to sell it for less than you paid for it. Make sense?
In the same way that you don't like doing business with 'jokers' who try and sell cars for more than market value, we don't do business or entertain 'jokers' who offer us stupid deals.
A major difference between what is happening to you and what is happening to us..... the customer comes to us... we don't come to you. You know what the dealership is advertising and you can look at their window stickers and see if there are any addendums. Unfortunately, the best way for me to 'shop' for customers are my cherry picking abilities.
So for a customer to get irate and complain about the 'joker' dealership. Well, I have little sympathy for them as well. Go to another dealer. Stop wasting your time. I do. I'm irritated that someone wasted my time with an illegitimate offer, but then I broom them out the door and meet the next one. Keep shaking hands, keep smiling.
not true. This is American corporate marketing at its finest.
If you put a salesman at the grocery store, the customer will haggle there too. The absence of a face in a supermarket is what makes the customers "not haggle".
Then there are potential synergies - probably less sales force/management is required with "no haggle pricing", as the sale can be done quickly. Salespeople would need to be retrained, of course, to concentrate on the product and the "deal of the month" rather than "profit extraction" efforts. Average paying customer visit is likely to be shorter, as price negotiation time is cut.
When the transition is ended, there are savings from that time. They could be consummated by the dealer ("awesome profits") or passed to the customer ("nobody beats our price").
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If I have one of these ups, I take them directly to my desk. Ask what price they want to be at. Tell them we can't do it. Excuse myself and move onto the next up.
Folks who are not in retail have no idea what we go through everyday. You have to adapt to survive.
The price was the price!
My mother used to do it, way back when I was small.. and that was a very long time ago... Lawnmowers, refrigerators, tools... you name it..
Did you work in automotive? Might be different in that department..
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator