Well it gets 20 combined and 17 in the city using the new dumb EPA ratings so I imagine you would have to really flog it to get 16.
EPA is like MSRP...doesn't mean much in real life.
I checked a real life driving review in a 2010 SHO and the car averages 16 MPG overall, but, if you want to boot it around town expect 14 MPG. It will suck up gas like a vacuum cleaner - their words, not mine.
Not every one worries about gas mileage....see murphydog a few posts down, but a vast majority do.
You made an excellent point that I have never seen mentioned here until now. I also believe that many people consider the distance to and from work when they buy their homes. That makes MPG less of an issue for them. Also, I was surprised when I looked at the MPG for the Civic, the CR-V, and the Pilot. I don't mean to pick on Hondas because our next car will be one of those. It's just that you would think that car companies today would do a little better on this MPG business.
I know for me MPG is not a big deal. I live pretty close to work - 5 miles each way for my wife and ~ 10 for me.
I don't worry too much either, I only do about 10k miles a year, so it doesn't matter to me. But, lots of people commute 2 hours or more a day and they are concerned about gas mileage.
Even if you drive short distances, you don't want to waste money on a car that is inefficient. That's why it is hard to sell a Hummer today. One day gas prices will surge, and mileage will become a big factor in car sales once again. I read a real life driving experience and the SHO got 16 MPG average and 14 if driven hard.....those aren't even good numbers if you don't care about gas mileage.
Of course you know how I feel about the C4C program and my tax dollars. I still get mad each time that I think about it.
If you really want to get mad about C4C check out this email I got from a very Conservative friend. Sorry it is a bit long, but it is interesting. One other note, one ultra conservative friend drives a Chrysler 300C, one ultra liberal friend drives an Echo Hybrid. Here goes;
Ignore all the gas crap and just look at how the stupid car buyer got taken to the cleaners:
If you traded in a clunker worth $3500, you get $4500 off for an apparent "savings" of $1000.
However, you have to pay taxes on the $4500 come April 15th (something that no auto dealer will tell you). If you are in the 30% tax bracket, you will pay $1350 on that $4500.
So, rather than save $1000, you actually pay an extra $350 to the feds. In addition, you traded in a car that was most likely paid for. Now you have 4 or 5 years of payments on a car that you did not need, that was costing you less to run than the payments that you will now be making.
But wait; it gets even better: you also got ripped off by the dealer.(That's the part I liked!) For example, every dealer here in LA was selling the Ford Focus with all the goodies, including A/C, auto transmission, power windows, etc for $12,500 the month before the "cash for clunkers" program started.
When "cash for clunkers" came along, they stopped discounting them and instead sold them at the list price of $15,500. So, you paid $3000 more than you would have the month before... (Honda, Toyota , and Kia played the same list price game that Ford and Chevy did).
So let's do the final tally here:
You traded in a car worth: $3500 You got a discount of: $4500 --------- Net so far +$1000 But you have to pay: $1350 in taxes on the $4500 --------- Net so far: -$350 And you paid: $3000 more than the car was selling for the month before --------- Net -$3350
We could also add in the additional taxes (sales tax, state tax, etc.) on the extra $3000 that you paid for the car, along with the 5 years of interest on the car loan, but let's just stop here.
So who actually made out on the deal? The feds collected taxes on the car along with taxes on the $4500 they "gave" you. The car dealers made an extra $3000 or more on every car they sold along with the kickbacks from the manufacturers and the loan companies. The manufacturers got to dump lots of cars they could not give away the month before. And the poor, stupid consumer got saddled with even more debt that they cannot afford.
Well, it's a good thing it ends with let's stop here because his "facts" aren't correct.
A very specific detail of C4C was that this money is NOT taxable. This has come up again and again. Some folks do not let facts get in their way.
What happened at the dealer depended on the dealer. The folks that got screwed by dealers earned it. Loads of dealers still discounted and if they didn't why would you do it?
I wasn't any fan of C4C but when you have to make up your arguments against it it makes me wonder.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
driver....someone sent me an email with that same break down on C4C.
Maybe it's different in LA. But, if you're in the 30% tax bracket, I'm assuming you're making a pretty decent wage. I guess you could make another assumption that if you're making a much better than average wage (which is what the exercise assumes), it's unlikely that you would have a "clunker".
More to the point, the clunkers I've seen sitting at dealerships aren't worth anywhere near $3,500.....maybe a $1,000-$1,500, at best. Most of the ones I've seen surprise me that they're even running well enough to get them to the dealership.
As far as jacking up the prices on a new car, the competition didn't change. A dealership still has to be price competitive with the dealerships down the road. I guess a dealership could try to be non-competitive on the price of a new car, but I find it highly unlikely they could actually do that.
In short, that little exercise falls apart in pretty short order. Makes for good internet outrage fodder, however.
However, you have to pay taxes on the $4500 come April 15th (something that no auto dealer will tell you). If you are in the 30% tax bracket, you will pay $1350 on that $4500.
Are you referring to Canada? The C4C rebates are clearly not taxable income as far as the U.S. Internal Revenue Code is concerned, but Canada might be different. (Surprise!)
The following comes from the U.S. Dept. of Transportation's website:
Is the credit subject to being taxed as income to the consumers that participate in the program?
NO. The CARS Act expressly provides that the credit is not income for the consumer.
(Richard & others who are sensitive to matters of grammar will note that the GS-15 who composed this incorrectly wrote "consumers that participate" when the correct usage is "consumers who participate". I'm confident that none of the regulars here would make that mistake.)
This wouldn't stop some states from treating the rebates as taxable income. I've also heard that a few states add the rebate to the sales price of the new car when figuring sales taxes. But the C4C rebates won't increase anyone's Federal tax liability.
Yeah.. didn't even know there was a Ford dealer in Ross... There is a pretty high-end used import dealer out there, though... Foreign Auto Livery.. I don't think the suburbs are creeping in that direction... it's still the country..
The e-mail about C4C is sort of interesting... but, typical of politically motivated rants... in that almost every point is either slanted, or flat out wrong....
1) Most people with a $3500 wholesale car, aren't going to be motivated to trade it, for just an extra $1000 incentive... If they did, it's doubtful that they thought they were really smart about it (or at least.. no one else thought they were). To take the extreme case and posit it as the typical example is a weak argument.
2) The $4500 rebate is not taxable as income (it may have been subject to state sales tax, as is the case in many jurisdictions with any rebate)
To be honest, I quit reading after that... Isn't C4C over?
The last one that generated a lot of posts about problems getting their orders built was the Ford Escape Hybrid.. If you check out the Prices Paid forum from last June ('08), you'll see a lot of angst about orders taken, but production remaining unscheduled...
So true. Once in a while a customer would say a competitor can get the same model for $XXXXX. The problem is they don't have one, nobody will dealer trade with them, and they can't factory order it.
So yeah, they can claim to offer it for $1, but since they can't deliver the product, the price is meaningless.
Thanks for your excellent replies, fezo, GG, jimbres, and kyfdx; I got that politically motivated email this morning just before Richards comments about C4C, so I thought it would fit in nicely.
Can't really believe anything you read on the internet....except on this site.
Anyway, I was just trying to get Richard even more upset than he was with C4C.
So I advertised a lease takeover for a friend of a friend on Craiglist. I posted their phone number, but any email inquiries came to me as it was my Craigslist account. I would just forward them to the seller.
So I get an email from someone just commenting "....nice car, I'd totally take over the lease if I had better credit".....
I jump on the opportunity emaling back saying that I was advertising it for a friend, but i work at a dealership and can likely get you approved. Long story short, after the customer was reluctant to try because they were "sure" they'd never get approved, we get them approved and they end up buying a car from me.
Sometimes the dealsd we get are total flukes.
Another good one is a customer was on the lot, and every salesperson was busy, so I was asked to up him (I don't up customers on the lot as I only did internet sales). I talk to the customer, who was looking for a car for his daughter. He ends up buying it for her. Then he buys one for himself within about 2 months. He also happens to be a fleet manager for a local company, so I end up selling him about 4 vehicles in the course of a year just for the company. Then his daughter trader her car he bought from me for a new one. So I got about 7-8 deals out of an up I took because everyone was busy. Too funny,
No, it is NOT over. Since the car buyers don't have to pay the taxes on the $4,500 gift, I DO! :sick: The program has to be paid for by the taxpayers. :mad:
glad Google is driver's friend, because it sure isn't mine. I've been let down on a number of occasions. So another adage for you: just because something is the most popular in its class doesn't mean it's the best in its class.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
You know the more you post the more I think you really don't know much about cars or you just like to stir the pot.
When the EPA changed the test back in 2008 they really dumbed it down. I could beat the MPG on every car I have ever owned by 10 percent or more before they changed the test. Now I can demolish those new EPA estimates. You have to drive like a complete idiot to get those EPA numbers. Driving like a complete idiot is probably what a press review car sees for its whole life.
We use XC70s as service loaner cars a lot. The new EPA test puts them at 18 mpg combined but all of them are getting 20-21 mpg and that is with dozens of different drivers in them. I usually average 21 or so when I have one though I have gotten up to 22 plus a few times.
You read a review that said a SHO gets 16 mpg and that counts more the the new EPA test which is very dumbed down. Well yeah if you are a couple of journalists reviewing a serious performance car I am surprised they didn't get it down under 14 mpg. So a single review of a press car press cars are beat on constantly and many times are very green when they are reviewed so I would discount any mileage derived from a short few hundred mile review.
A better gauge is to look at the Edmunds, or any other magazine/website, long term fleet and what they get over the course of a year or six months.
Just picking a handful of Edmunds long term test vehicles and they seem to get within plus or minus one mpg of the EPA combined mpg for the life time average of the test.
Considering that one year test includes a lot of performance driving and maybe some track days getting within one mpg of the regular combined average is pretty good.
i have a couple of friends that track one of their cars. when going to the track, they swap out the tires/wheels and brake pads. after the brake discs wear out. they upgrade those too. i went karting with them a few times. the first time after i got lapped by them, i figured i could follow their line and keep up but always ended up several laps down ( ), so i don' t think i will be heading to the track anytime soon. closest one is LRP.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I have seen that same email posted at least five different times on Edmunds and probably one other time on this thread.
Every time it is thoroughly debunked as it is total garbage.
But hey its more fun to stir the pot then actually spend 30 seconds fact checking a forwarded email right? Cause seriously every email I get forwarded to me is totally and completely100% the truth. :surprise: :sick: :mad:
the escape hybrid was a low volume vehicle due the the battery supply. ford puts the ecoboost engine in the taurus, mxs, mkt, and flex. i think it is limited by demand, not supply. there are plenty of these ecoboost taurus and mks here in ct, just waiting for a buyer. i'm sure based on economic conditions, more were sent here to start with.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
richard - it wasn't all bad, didn't you enjoy my buying story saga? My cash 4 clunkers $3500 rebate was worth less than advertised because New York State is one of only 2 states that had the clunker rebate deducted after the sales tax was added to the price of the car. Every other state deducted the clunker rebate, then charged sales tax.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
You know the more you post the more I think you really don't know much about cars or you just like to stir the pot.
I usually don't say something without being able to back it up...unless it is my own opinion. The actual article I was referring to said if you are going to drive an SHO like a pussycat you will reach the EPA figures, but if you do that you might as well get a V6 Taurus. Here's the magazine quote, and since it is a Canadian Magazine 16litres/100 kms is equivalent to 14 MPG and 14 litres /100 kms is equal to 16 MPG, you can check it on a calculator
.Yet, according to Canadian Energuide fuel consumption figures, the SHO (with standard AWD) gets about the same fuel economy as the non-turbocharged Taurus AWD: 12.3/8.0 (L/100 km) city/hwy vs 12.3/7.9 city/hwy. During the week that I had it, my Taurus SHO test car averaged 14.0 L/100 km according to its onboard computer, and as high as 16 L/100 km according to my own calculations. It’s not hard to figure out why: put the pedal to the metal, wind up those turbos, and you’re sucking back gas like a Hoover vacuum! Bottom line: gas mileage in the SHO is directly proportional to your driving behaviour. Drive like a pussycat, and you might match those Energuide numbers, but if that’s your goal, you might as well buy the regular Taurus.
The SHO is a bold move for a North American car maker to come out with. IMO, it will appeal to enthusiasts who love big American muscle cars, I doubt if it will appeal to foreign car buyers. Sometimes I do just say things to stir the pot, especially if things are getting slow, but my numbers are based on a real review.
when going to the track, they swap out the tires/wheels and brake pads. after the brake discs wear out. they upgrade those too.
The level of preparation depends on the track, the car, and the driver. I've been attending HPDEs since 1988 and instructing since 1998 and I have never changed pads or tires on my BMWs or the Mazda. My point remains that a car sold by Mazda's performance/racing division should be able to survive more than one HPDE without the turbo aand dampers packing it in. Oh yeah, did I mention that the %#%%# Mazda's front brake pads are more expensive than the OEM pads for an E46 M3? :sick:
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I'm going to start combing roundel & BMWUSA's website to try and find you a nicely used E46 M3. '05 - '06 6 speed manual, no sunroof, no competition pkg, right pal?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
When the EPA changed the test back in 2008 they really dumbed it down. I could beat the MPG on every car I have ever owned by 10 percent or more before they changed the test.
I can beat the advertised rating for my car too on certain conditions. However, with the drving I do (gridlock hwy or city traffic) the new EPA combined # is pretty much exactly what I average. I live in NJ, I am sure people who live with more wide open spaces can beat the #s more regularly. Basically, IMO the new system was put in place to make the manufacturers work harder to make fuel efficient vehicles.
I'm going to start combing roundel & BMWUSA's website to try and find you a nicely used E46 M3. '05 - '06 6 speed manual, no sunroof, no competition pkg, right pal?
YOU DA MAN!!!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
glad Google is driver's friend, because it sure isn't mine........... So another adage for you: just because ............
Ah Kirstie, I think yet another adage is called for here: "It's not what you've got that's important, it's how you use it that counts", While appropriate for many other things, it's applicable to your Googling in this case. :P
kyfdx....imid....it's been a long time since I was out that way. I do remember the Ford dealership. And, I remember the Foreign Auto Livery being out there. They did have some fine high end imports. I remember seeing more than one Lambo on their lot at the time. Kind of interesting having an exotics dealership in that locale. I think the Ford dealership is past that place, if memory serves.
It's definitely in the "country". Just thinking, probably most of their business would be trucks, given the area's farming roots, with the occasional car every now and again.
Might have to take a ride out there shortly......just to see if it's changed at all from what I remember. It's been 4-5 years since the last time I rode through there. The dealership looked like it was straight out of the late '50s, early '60s. Heck, for all I know, they could be selling Ford tractors, too.
I'll keep you guys posted on how my friend's SHO order goes.
That may be, but if Driver had googled, say, "cash for clunkers tax", he would have quickly learned that the Feds don't consider C4C rebates to be taxable income.
brittish_rover....I think it depends on the vehicle regarding the accuracy of their MPG ratings.
I know, even with the new ratings, my Tahoe doesn't come close to what was on the sticker. I believe it was rated at 15 MPG in town. I'm lucky to hit 13 MPG in town. Highway was rated at 19 or 20 MPG. I hit 19 MPG on a trip to Chicago once. But, that was at a relatively steady 60 MPH (cruise) on relatively flat highway. You go 70 MPH, as you can on much of that trip, and I'm lucky to get 15 MPG, all highway. That's not towing, and with a light load.
My Accord hits it's ratings dead on what the MSRP sticker says it should, both in town and highway, every time. That same Chicago trip, I actually exceeded the highway ratings by 2 MPG.
if Driver had googled, say, "cash for clunkers tax", he would have quickly learned that the Feds don't consider C4C rebates to be taxable income
I probably should have done that but you can't cover every possibility...also, I didn't think they would misrepresent something so obvious, because then they lose all of their credibility.
The part I questioned when I got the email was the part about handing in a car worth $3500. Probably, there weren't too many of those.
But with most arguements, people distort their side and statistics can be distorted. I kind of expected that because it came from a very right wing individual, but I thought the points made were basically true, but I didn't think they would distort the tax part.
Even taking those things into consideration, it was a clunker of a program.
This puppy looks promising. Manual seats are a big plus, the presence of a sunroof is a minus. I like the color combination as well. If I didn't need a four seater I'd buy this sled in a heartbeat...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
When the EPA changed the test back in 2008 they really dumbed it down
I wouldn't call it "dumbing down". In anything, the fact that you can "beat it" as you say, is exactly proof that it's working the way it's supposed to. The idea was was not to squeeze maximum milearge from certain driving conditions (that was the previous standard), but to simulate a number of very different trips taken average driver having much more on his/her mind than the mileage (screaming children in the back, late to work, etc.). One time he/she would be going stop and go, another would be taking a lunch trip for just three blocks on a cold day with a cold engine (imagine what that does to the mileage), another time he/she may cruising on an empty parkway occasionally stopping for lights (still city, but the mileage much better). Then we take a prescribed weighed average of those conditions and we get a "city" mileage. "Highway" will include now going 65+ mph, entering and exiting ramps, passing from time to time, like in a rural area. AC running, lights running, mother-in-law on the front seat, trunk full of luggage. Not just going hundred laps in Sebring on a worm day with cruise control set on 52 mph, jockey-sized driver with windows closed and AC off, like previously.
Nice color combo on the M3.. you won't see that every day.. But, miles are kind of high..
I like the Imola one from the Porsche dealer better.. except for the SMG... really low miles on that one, and only $1500 more..
They get a lot of the M-dorkmobiles up there... always have two or three on the lot..
nyccarguy.. As long as you are looking out... find me a nice E46 stick-shift with the sport or performance package.. Newer the better... under $20K... and, oh yeah... I don't need it until next July..
I like the manual seats & sunroof in the M3, but not the grey interior. You've got the chutzpah to buy a car like that whereas I couldn't. The E46 M3 is still one of my favorite cars on the road.
That M Coupe is nice. Stylewise not my cup of tea, but for a track lunatic like yourself it would be perfect. You couldn't get that past your wife either:) If you do buy the M coupe, you'll automatically get your own monthly column in ROUNDEL
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
See the trouble that you got in because you were trying to make me madder? .
Not really trying to get you madder, but, I thought, with all that sedate driving you are doing lately, I needed to get your adrenalin going once in a while.
Try to do someone a favor, and that's what I get :sick:
P.S. Thank you fort the "Dog Friendly" tip. If you look for "dog friendly Bradenton FL" or "dog friendly Tampa Fl" it narrows down the search because only 5 to 10% of the places allow pets.
So much depends on where and how you drive. Both my Eclipse (V-6 3.8L 265hp) and my wife's PT (I-4 2.4L 150hp) are EPA rated @ 19/26 mpg. I get close to the top number and my wife gets closer to the bottom. :confuse:
She does more short trips with more stop & go but I was still shocked with the figures.Her car only has 2500 miles on it so I'm hoping for some gain as the engine breaks in.
My junker van gets 18mpg. vs. old EPA est. of 15.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I like the Imola one from the Porsche dealer better.. except for the SMG
Yep, but it's gone...
find me a nice E46 stick-shift with the sport or performance package.. Newer the better... under $20K... and, oh yeah... I don't need it until next July...
Well, EA also has a ZHP. I'd probably buy it if they'd come down a couple of thousand.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Comments
EPA is like MSRP...doesn't mean much in real life.
I checked a real life driving review in a 2010 SHO and the car averages 16 MPG overall, but, if you want to boot it around town expect 14 MPG. It will suck up gas like a vacuum cleaner - their words, not mine.
Not every one worries about gas mileage....see murphydog a few posts down, but a vast majority do.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Richard
I don't worry too much either, I only do about 10k miles a year, so it doesn't matter to me. But, lots of people commute 2 hours or more a day and they are concerned about gas mileage.
Even if you drive short distances, you don't want to waste money on a car that is inefficient. That's why it is hard to sell a Hummer today. One day gas prices will surge, and mileage will become a big factor in car sales once again. I read a real life driving experience and the SHO got 16 MPG average and 14 if driven hard.....those aren't even good numbers if you don't care about gas mileage.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
If you really want to get mad about C4C check out this email I got from a very Conservative friend. Sorry it is a bit long, but it is interesting. One other note, one ultra conservative friend drives a Chrysler 300C, one ultra liberal friend drives an Echo Hybrid. Here goes;
Ignore all the gas crap and just look at how the stupid car buyer got taken to the cleaners:
If you traded in a clunker worth $3500, you get $4500 off for an
apparent "savings" of $1000.
However, you have to pay taxes on the $4500 come April 15th (something
that no auto dealer will tell you). If you are in the 30% tax bracket,
you will pay $1350 on that $4500.
So, rather than save $1000, you actually pay an extra $350 to the feds.
In addition, you traded in a car that was most likely paid for. Now you
have 4 or 5 years of payments on a car that you did not need, that was
costing you less to run than the payments that you will now be making.
But wait; it gets even better: you also got ripped off by the dealer.(That's the part I liked!)
For example, every dealer here in LA was selling the Ford Focus with all
the goodies, including A/C, auto transmission, power windows, etc for
$12,500 the month before the "cash for clunkers" program started.
When "cash for clunkers" came along, they stopped discounting them and
instead sold them at the list price of $15,500. So, you paid $3000 more
than you would have the month before... (Honda, Toyota , and Kia played
the same list price game that Ford and Chevy did).
So let's do the final tally here:
You traded in a car worth: $3500
You got a discount of: $4500
---------
Net so far +$1000
But you have to pay: $1350 in taxes on the $4500
---------
Net so far: -$350
And you paid: $3000 more than the car was selling for the
month before
---------
Net -$3350
We could also add in the additional taxes (sales tax, state tax, etc.)
on the extra $3000 that you paid for the car, along with the 5 years of
interest on the car loan, but let's just stop here.
So who actually made out on the deal? The feds collected taxes on the
car along with taxes on the $4500 they "gave" you. The car dealers made
an extra $3000 or more on every car they sold along with the kickbacks
from the manufacturers and the loan companies. The manufacturers got to
dump lots of cars they could not give away the month before. And the
poor, stupid consumer got saddled with even more debt that they cannot
afford.
How do you feel now? :sick:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
A very specific detail of C4C was that this money is NOT taxable. This has come up again and again. Some folks do not let facts get in their way.
What happened at the dealer depended on the dealer. The folks that got screwed by dealers earned it. Loads of dealers still discounted and if they didn't why would you do it?
I wasn't any fan of C4C but when you have to make up your arguments against it it makes me wonder.
Maybe it's different in LA. But, if you're in the 30% tax bracket, I'm assuming you're making a pretty decent wage. I guess you could make another assumption that if you're making a much better than average wage (which is what the exercise assumes), it's unlikely that you would have a "clunker".
More to the point, the clunkers I've seen sitting at dealerships aren't worth anywhere near $3,500.....maybe a $1,000-$1,500, at best. Most of the ones I've seen surprise me that they're even running well enough to get them to the dealership.
As far as jacking up the prices on a new car, the competition didn't change. A dealership still has to be price competitive with the dealerships down the road. I guess a dealership could try to be non-competitive on the price of a new car, but I find it highly unlikely they could actually do that.
In short, that little exercise falls apart in pretty short order. Makes for good internet outrage fodder, however.
that no auto dealer will tell you). If you are in the 30% tax bracket,
you will pay $1350 on that $4500.
Are you referring to Canada? The C4C rebates are clearly not taxable income as far as the U.S. Internal Revenue Code is concerned, but Canada might be different. (Surprise!)
The following comes from the U.S. Dept. of Transportation's website:
Is the credit subject to being taxed as income to the consumers that participate in the program?
NO. The CARS Act expressly provides that the credit is not income for the consumer.
(Richard & others who are sensitive to matters of grammar will note that the GS-15 who composed this incorrectly wrote "consumers that participate" when the correct usage is "consumers who participate". I'm confident that none of the regulars here would make that mistake.)
This wouldn't stop some states from treating the rebates as taxable income. I've also heard that a few states add the rebate to the sales price of the new car when figuring sales taxes. But the C4C rebates won't increase anyone's Federal tax liability.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The e-mail about C4C is sort of interesting... but, typical of politically motivated rants... in that almost every point is either slanted, or flat out wrong....
1) Most people with a $3500 wholesale car, aren't going to be motivated to trade it, for just an extra $1000 incentive... If they did, it's doubtful that they thought they were really smart about it (or at least.. no one else thought they were). To take the extreme case and posit it as the typical example is a weak argument.
2) The $4500 rebate is not taxable as income (it may have been subject to state sales tax, as is the case in many jurisdictions with any rebate)
To be honest, I quit reading after that... Isn't C4C over?
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I wanted to ask where this dealer was. I never would have guessed New Vienna. KyFDx beat me to it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
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So yeah, they can claim to offer it for $1, but since they can't deliver the product, the price is meaningless.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Thanks for your excellent replies, fezo, GG, jimbres, and kyfdx;
I got that politically motivated email this morning just before Richards comments about C4C, so I thought it would fit in nicely.
Can't really believe anything you read on the internet....except on this site.
Anyway, I was just trying to get Richard even more upset than he was with C4C.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
So I get an email from someone just commenting "....nice car, I'd totally take over the lease if I had better credit".....
I jump on the opportunity emaling back saying that I was advertising it for a friend, but i work at a dealership and can likely get you approved. Long story short, after the customer was reluctant to try because they were "sure" they'd never get approved, we get them approved and they end up buying a car from me.
Sometimes the dealsd we get are total flukes.
Another good one is a customer was on the lot, and every salesperson was busy, so I was asked to up him (I don't up customers on the lot as I only did internet sales). I talk to the customer, who was looking for a car for his daughter. He ends up buying it for her. Then he buys one for himself within about 2 months. He also happens to be a fleet manager for a local company, so I end up selling him about 4 vehicles in the course of a year just for the company. Then his daughter trader her car he bought from me for a new one. So I got about 7-8 deals out of an up I took because everyone was busy. Too funny,
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
No, it is NOT over. Since the car buyers don't have to pay the taxes on the $4,500 gift, I DO! :sick: The program has to be paid for by the taxpayers. :mad:
Richard
Google is your friend, Driver.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
Wow, after reading those posts it's a wonder ANY cars ever get sold. What a system.
Now I know why every time I've asked to factory order, the salesman looks like he's been gut shot.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
What is wrong with it that it only goes 16 MPH but has 365 h.p.? :P
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When the EPA changed the test back in 2008 they really dumbed it down. I could beat the MPG on every car I have ever owned by 10 percent or more before they changed the test. Now I can demolish those new EPA estimates. You have to drive like a complete idiot to get those EPA numbers. Driving like a complete idiot is probably what a press review car sees for its whole life.
We use XC70s as service loaner cars a lot. The new EPA test puts them at 18 mpg combined but all of them are getting 20-21 mpg and that is with dozens of different drivers in them. I usually average 21 or so when I have one though I have gotten up to 22 plus a few times.
You read a review that said a SHO gets 16 mpg and that counts more the the new EPA test which is very dumbed down. Well yeah if you are a couple of journalists reviewing a serious performance car I am surprised they didn't get it down under 14 mpg. So a single review of a press car press cars are beat on constantly and many times are very green when they are reviewed so I would discount any mileage derived from a short few hundred mile review.
A better gauge is to look at the Edmunds, or any other magazine/website, long term fleet and what they get over the course of a year or six months.
Just picking a handful of Edmunds long term test vehicles and they seem to get within plus or minus one mpg of the EPA combined mpg for the life time average of the test.
Considering that one year test includes a lot of performance driving and maybe some track days getting within one mpg of the regular combined average is pretty good.
when going to the track, they swap out the tires/wheels and brake pads.
after the brake discs wear out. they upgrade those too.
i went karting with them a few times.
the first time after i got lapped by them, i figured i could follow their line and keep up but always ended up several laps down (
Every time it is thoroughly debunked as it is total garbage.
But hey its more fun to stir the pot then actually spend 30 seconds fact checking a forwarded email right? Cause seriously every email I get forwarded to me is totally and completely100% the truth. :surprise: :sick: :mad:
ford puts the ecoboost engine in the taurus, mxs, mkt, and flex.
i think it is limited by demand, not supply.
there are plenty of these ecoboost taurus and mks here in ct, just waiting for a buyer.
i'm sure based on economic conditions, more were sent here to start with.
IN fact it was posted in reply to a post of Driver100 and I replied to it debunking it then you replied to me in acknowledgment.
storysaga? My cash 4 clunkers $3500 rebate was worth less than advertised because New York State is one of only 2 states that had the clunker rebate deducted after the sales tax was added to the price of the car. Every other state deducted the clunker rebate, then charged sales tax.2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I usually don't say something without being able to back it up...unless it is my own opinion.
The actual article I was referring to said if you are going to drive an SHO like a pussycat you will reach the EPA figures, but if you do that you might as well get a V6 Taurus.
Here's the magazine quote, and since it is a Canadian Magazine 16litres/100 kms is equivalent to 14 MPG and 14 litres /100 kms is equal to 16 MPG, you can check it on a calculator
.Yet, according to Canadian Energuide fuel consumption figures, the SHO (with standard AWD) gets about the same fuel economy as the non-turbocharged Taurus AWD: 12.3/8.0 (L/100 km) city/hwy vs 12.3/7.9 city/hwy. During the week that I had it, my Taurus SHO test car averaged 14.0 L/100 km according to its onboard computer, and as high as 16 L/100 km according to my own calculations. It’s not hard to figure out why: put the pedal to the metal, wind up those turbos, and you’re sucking back gas like a Hoover vacuum! Bottom line: gas mileage in the SHO is directly proportional to your driving behaviour. Drive like a pussycat, and you might match those Energuide numbers, but if that’s your goal, you might as well buy the regular Taurus.
To see the whole article;
2010 SHO
The SHO is a bold move for a North American car maker to come out with. IMO, it will appeal to enthusiasts who love big American muscle cars, I doubt if it will appeal to foreign car buyers.
Sometimes I do just say things to stir the pot, especially if things are getting slow, but my numbers are based on a real review.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
after the brake discs wear out. they upgrade those too.
The level of preparation depends on the track, the car, and the driver. I've been attending HPDEs since 1988 and instructing since 1998 and I have never changed pads or tires on my BMWs or the Mazda. My point remains that a car sold by Mazda's performance/racing division should be able to survive more than one HPDE without the turbo aand dampers packing it in.
Oh yeah, did I mention that the %#%%# Mazda's front brake pads are more expensive than the OEM pads for an E46 M3? :sick:
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
When the EPA changed the test back in 2008 they really dumbed it down. I could beat the MPG on every car I have ever owned by 10 percent or more before they changed the test.
I can beat the advertised rating for my car too on certain conditions. However, with the drving I do (gridlock hwy or city traffic) the new EPA combined # is pretty much exactly what I average. I live in NJ, I am sure people who live with more wide open spaces can beat the #s more regularly. Basically, IMO the new system was put in place to make the manufacturers work harder to make fuel efficient vehicles.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
YOU DA MAN!!!
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Ah Kirstie, I think yet another adage is called for here:
"It's not what you've got that's important, it's how you use it that counts",
While appropriate for many other things, it's applicable to your Googling in this case. :P
It's definitely in the "country". Just thinking, probably most of their business would be trucks, given the area's farming roots, with the occasional car every now and again.
Might have to take a ride out there shortly......just to see if it's changed at all from what I remember. It's been 4-5 years since the last time I rode through there. The dealership looked like it was straight out of the late '50s, early '60s. Heck, for all I know, they could be selling Ford tractors, too.
I'll keep you guys posted on how my friend's SHO order goes.
I know, even with the new ratings, my Tahoe doesn't come close to what was on the sticker. I believe it was rated at 15 MPG in town. I'm lucky to hit 13 MPG in town. Highway was rated at 19 or 20 MPG. I hit 19 MPG on a trip to Chicago once. But, that was at a relatively steady 60 MPH (cruise) on relatively flat highway. You go 70 MPH, as you can on much of that trip, and I'm lucky to get 15 MPG, all highway. That's not towing, and with a light load.
My Accord hits it's ratings dead on what the MSRP sticker says it should, both in town and highway, every time. That same Chicago trip, I actually exceeded the highway ratings by 2 MPG.
I probably should have done that but you can't cover every possibility...also, I didn't think they would misrepresent something so obvious, because then they lose all of their credibility.
The part I questioned when I got the email was the part about handing in a car worth $3500. Probably, there weren't too many of those.
But with most arguements, people distort their side and statistics can be distorted. I kind of expected that because it came from a very right wing individual, but I thought the points made were basically true, but I didn't think they would distort the tax part.
Even taking those things into consideration, it was a clunker of a program.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Richard
Richard
Richard
If I didn't need a four seater I'd buy this sled in a heartbeat...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I wouldn't call it "dumbing down". In anything, the fact that you can "beat it" as you say, is exactly proof that it's working the way it's supposed to. The idea was was not to squeeze maximum milearge from certain driving conditions (that was the previous standard), but to simulate a number of very different trips taken average driver having much more on his/her mind than the mileage (screaming children in the back, late to work, etc.). One time he/she would be going stop and go, another would be taking a lunch trip for just three blocks on a cold day with a cold engine (imagine what that does to the mileage), another time he/she may cruising on an empty parkway occasionally stopping for lights (still city, but the mileage much better). Then we take a prescribed weighed average of those conditions and we get a "city" mileage. "Highway" will include now going 65+ mph, entering and exiting ramps, passing from time to time, like in a rural area. AC running, lights running, mother-in-law on the front seat, trunk full of luggage. Not just going hundred laps in Sebring on a worm day with cruise control set on 52 mph, jockey-sized driver with windows closed and AC off, like previously.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I like the Imola one from the Porsche dealer better.. except for the SMG... really low miles on that one, and only $1500 more..
They get a lot of the M-dorkmobiles up there... always have two or three on the lot..
nyccarguy.. As long as you are looking out... find me a nice E46 stick-shift with the sport or performance package.. Newer the better... under $20K... and, oh yeah... I don't need it until next July..
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That M Coupe is nice. Stylewise not my cup of tea, but for a track lunatic like yourself it would be perfect. You couldn't get that past your wife either:) If you do buy the M coupe, you'll automatically get your own monthly column in ROUNDEL
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
.
Not really trying to get you madder, but, I thought, with all that sedate driving you are doing lately, I needed to get your adrenalin going once in a while.
Try to do someone a favor, and that's what I get :sick:
P.S. Thank you fort the "Dog Friendly" tip. If you look for "dog friendly Bradenton FL" or "dog friendly Tampa Fl" it narrows down the search because only 5 to 10% of the places allow pets.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
definitely an expresso ride.
Come on now, what do you expect? Our lawmakers need 70K a day to not do the work they were supose to do during their regular session.
Bad government doesn't come cheap. :P
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
So much depends on where and how you drive. Both my Eclipse (V-6 3.8L 265hp) and my wife's PT (I-4 2.4L 150hp) are EPA rated @ 19/26 mpg. I get close to the top number and my wife gets closer to the bottom. :confuse:
She does more short trips with more stop & go but I was still shocked with the figures.Her car only has 2500 miles on it so I'm hoping for some gain as the engine breaks in.
My junker van gets 18mpg. vs. old EPA est. of 15.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
that can't be right. Last I heard there were 50 of them! :P
Yep, but it's gone...
find me a nice E46 stick-shift with the sport or performance package.. Newer the better... under $20K... and, oh yeah... I don't need it until next July...
Well, EA also has a ZHP. I'd probably buy it if they'd come down a couple of thousand.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Next month's issue will have a couple of O'fest stories you might find interesting...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive