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General Motors discussions

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  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I would've never looked at an X or J car in the first place nor any of its foreign or domestic competitors. I would have and did buy the excellent B and C-body full-size GM cars.

    I took a test drive of a Lexus LS430 to see what all the hype was and walked away disappointed. Aside from a marginally better interior, the car felt and drove exactly like a Buick. Why should I pay a premium for what I already have at a far more reasonable price?
  • kc_flynnkc_flynn Member Posts: 45
    I had a 2003 Impala as a rental for 10 days and thought the car was cheap and not well made. However, the 2006 redesign looks really nice on the exterior and has received good reviews. I see them all over the place in New England. Besides the nice styling, is the build quality tighter on the 2006 models?
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I don't suppose that the higher ground clearance that the SRX has would have anything to do with getting in and out?

    What I do know is that the inside measurements for shoulder and hip room in the SRX are closer to the STS's than the CTS's. :P
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I can see why owners of GM products from the mid 90's would now be buying something else and are the cause of GM's market share to drop. However, disappointed buyers of GM products from 20 or 30 years ago, who would have moved on at least 10 or 15 years ago, are not the explanation for GM's current market problems. ;)
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593
    I had a 2003 Impala as a rental for 10 days and thought the car was cheap and not well made.

    I did the same, rented a 2003 Impala for 5 days. Those bench seats with no support really get to you after a few 100 miles. The car just felt cheap, column shifter, speedo and idiot lights for gauges, everything on the interior and exterior was blue!
    The new Impala looks a little a lot nicer (copied an Accord nicely) and I believe the price has come down a lot...probably because the design was paid for 5 years ago, and I see good reviews, so I wondered the same...IS THE CAR ACTUALLY IMPROVED OR SAME OLD, SAME OLD...

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The basic platform is the same. The build quality may be better, but the basic car's structure is not really better. The Saturn Aura is possibly a better platform, but then the Malibu or G6 would also be a better platform, and I am not sure about that. I think that GM's current problems are that their interiors are cheap looking, but that may be improving.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593
    However, disappointed buyers of GM products from 20 or 30 years ago, who would have moved on at least 10 or 15 years ago, are not the explanation for GM's current market problems.

    Sure they can be, partly. It is a big thing to make car buyers happy, so when their children start driving, they get used to the family car. You can sell a lot of cars, through passing on down through the family. If you were raised on GM, it is easier to keep you in the fold.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "That is one heck of a date!!"

    Well, I told her there was this new restaurant I wanted to try....but it was out of town. But I think the backpacks and camping gear in the back made her suspicious....

    ...I never HAVE been able to fool her for long... ;)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I'd imagine that one very big reason that GM has lost market share is simply because through the course of the 80's, 90's, and today, the Japanese cars have moved into more markets and compete with GM on all levels.

    For instance, look at 1985. GM's last really great year and probably their "jump the shark" moment with respect to sales and market share. That year they had 7 of the top ten selling cars. Those models were, in no particular order, Cavalier, Celebrity, Caprice, Delta 88, Cutlass Ciera, Cutlass Supreme, Century. Ford had two nameplates up there: Escort and Tempo. The lone import was the Nissan Sentra.

    With the exception of the Cavalier, the Japanese simply didn't have anything back in 1985 that competed directly with any of those other GM cars. The biggest thing that Honda made was the Accord, and it was smaller than a Cavalier back then. Over at Nissan there was the Maxima and Stanza, again, cars about Cavalier-sized. Toyota's Camry was a step up, maybe on par with a Reliant/Aries, or perhaps a Citation with a bit less shoulder room. The Cressida was a bit bigger still, but probably less space-efficient than a Camry inside, so still about on par with a K-car or Citation.

    Fast forward to today. According to AIC/Autosite, the top ten selling cars in July were:

    Camry
    Corolla
    Accord
    Civic
    Impala
    Cobalt
    Altima
    G6
    Malibu
    Focus

    All midsized/compact cars (for all practical purposes, the Impala's a midsize. It's closer in interior volume to those 1985 midsized cars than it is to the 1985 fullsized and not really that much bigger than an Altima/Accord/Camry)

    The midsized market seems to still be the biggest chunk. However now the Japanese are firmly entrenched in that market with the Accord, Camry, and Altima.

    Also, cars in general just don't sell the way they used to. Back in 1985, the 10th most popular car on that list still probably sold over 250,000 units. The most popular 1 or 2 probably broke 400,000. I remember reading somewhere that the 1985 LeSabre was #18, and I think they sold about 160,000 of them.

    Now for 2006, the Camry could easily break 400,000 units. The Corolla, which sole 239,103 through July, could as well. Even the Accord, at 216,150, if it keeps up that rate, could still top 375,000. But then the Focus at #10 is at 111,108. So it could conceivably top out at 180,000 units.

    Counting down to #18, for July sales at least, brings us to the Jetta. 9712 units in July, 63,037 YTD. So while #18 in 1985 was good for about 160,000 units, #18 today might be good for around 100-120K units.

    Now over in full-sized trucks the domestics do still dominate. The Toyota Tundra sells at about half the rate as the least popular domestic, the GMC Sierra. However, the Tundra is due for a restyle soon, and may change things. And I'm sure Nissan will learn from their mistakes when they update the Titan. Also, the most popular non-fullsized truck is the Tacoma, with 101K units YTD through July. The Colorado and Ranger have only moved about 55-57K units each.

    The domestics still dominate in full-sized SUVs, but that is a rapidly shrinking market. And in midsized truck-based SUVs they still dominate, but that market is also shrinking, and at an alarming pace. In crossover types, the imports seem to be leading now, and by a wide margin. The HHR seems to be doing well though.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I did the same, rented a 2003 Impala for 5 days. Those bench seats with no support really get to you after a few 100 miles. The car just felt cheap, column shifter, speedo and idiot lights for gauges, everything on the interior and exterior was blue!

    Wow, lucky you...how'd you end up with a car with a BLUE interior?! :P I didn't think anybody made interiors in colors other than varying shades of gray, putty, beige, and if you're lucky, black! Oh, let me guess....it was actually bluish gray? :)

    Also, in my case, most car seats get to me after about a half-hour...45 minutes if I'm lucky! So something like an Impala bench might not irritate me that much.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Yea, they just moved the doors outboard and left the passengers where they were.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    After 17 years I had my fill.

    I'll never love a car more than I loved my 70 Chevelle. I want the company to be great, but have no reason to go back based on the current line-up, my experiences with their most recent models owned by family members and my bad experiences.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    They did make the look of the Impala closer to that of the Accord. Sort of a pregnant Accord, with some bling chrome. Not too bad looking. Simple FWD larger car. Not exactly something to write home about, but not homely
    -Loren
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    Accord copied the Impala. The Accord is the one that looks like a guppy version of the pleasing-to-the-eye Impala styling.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "The Accord is the one that looks like a guppy version of the pleasing-to-the-eye Impala styling."

    IMO, all of those designs are so derivative with no real standouts that it's difficult to say just who is copying who.

    The only ones in that class that really standout are the Chryco 300's.

    I see both 'accord' and 'impala' in one sentence and then try to picture those cars in my mind......blank (and no wise remarks, please). Sure, if I see unlabeled photos of these cars I can point out which is which. But they're all becoming so......blah, that they really leave no lasting impressions.

    Appliances have a way of doing that.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593
    Accord copied the Impala.

    Actually, Impala copied Civic, 2003 at least. It looks exactly like this, only bloated and stretched.
    2003 Civic

    I like the new Impala design, but they must have bought the plans from Honda.

    I have to add, in the 2003 Impala I spent 5 days in, there was no element of fun, no feel of the road, just bland numb steering.
    It is pleasant looking, and is a lot of car for the money, but for anyone contemplating an Impala, I'd say get a life!

    Yes andre, the interior might have been bluish grey, kind of a neutral to go with any exterior.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    Maybe with some semi-talented GM designer now working for Honda, Hondas will imitate some GM themes, like the Saturn looking themes in the new Civic.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    image

    Impala actually took the LaCrosse design

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    up front, I think it looks a bit like a cross between a Chrysler Sebring and a Honda Accord. Not a bad looking car, actually. If I were going to find fault with it, looks would not be it. If I needed a car and found a used '06 at a reasonable price, I'd consider it...even if I do whine about the W-body's back seat! It's not like I'm normally a backseat passenger in my own car and, well I can afford a hotel room if the need arises. :P
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I think GM might also hold the record for the last vehicle sold with a carburetor...the 1990 Caprice/Electra/Custom Cruiser wagons, which had Olds 307-4bbls.

    Naah, that title goes to Isuzu. You could still get the pickup with a 2.3L carby I4 all the way to 1993, but most people bought the FI 2.3L. I'm not certain, but I think the carbys were shipped over from Japan while the FI's were built in the Subaru plant.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593
    Impala actually took the LaCrosse design

    You GM fans are funny! You think Honda copied Impala and Impala copied LaCrosse.

    IMO there is a strong resemblance between the LaCrosse and Impala because they probably share so many parts that they needed the same parts, such as windows and doors. I can't think of too much on most GM's that anyone would really want to copy, except the Caddie design - and that is just too distinctive to try and copy, you'd be sued for copyright etc.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    >You Honda fans are funny! You think Impala copied Civic and Impala copied Accord.

    I think even funnier was someone's saying that Impala copied the Civic. Who'da wanna do that?

    I was referring to the taillight pattern. Honda's Accord's earlier 03 tail was really bad for styling, rather for lack thereof. They had to look quick for something without doing it midyear an admitting another major goof.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • drjamesdrjames Member Posts: 274
    "The only ones in that class that really standout are the Chryco 300's. "

    Which looks like a cheap knock-off of a Bentley, which I guess isn't such a bad car to try and rip off, no?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Nothing is shared that is visible on any of the W cars. All sheet metal/glass/everything is unique.

    How anyone can mistake an Impala for a LaCrosse is crazy.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Well, from that 3/4 rear view, the LaCrosse sure looks like the 2000 and later Taurus: taillights, C-pillar shape, and all!

    Which is what I said when the car first came out as a 2005 model. The Lucerne is much classier looking, IMO.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593
    How anyone can mistake an Impala for a LaCrosse is crazy

    Ask Imadoza, he started it.

    Seriously, I find they look somewhat similar. Both have that swelled look....just a car, nothing that would get anyone excited, nothing offensive, nothing original. Doubt if it is anyones "dream car".

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Although I like the overall look of the current Impala better, the 2000-05 had a distinctive rear end with the 4 circular lights. It should have had 6, but that's another story!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    Isn't the red tail and brake light behind the red lens a circular light on the current Impala. I.e., at night the taillight shows that great, round Chevy taillight?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    It could very well be; the trend for everyone these days is for circular lamps (both front and rear) within whatever shape the housings happen to be. With the headlights, it's part of the retro thing.

    Kind of ironic, because not so long ago, the rectangular look was in vogue, and round headlights were frowned upon as "old school."
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Maybe with some semi-talented GM designer now working for Honda, Hondas will imitate some GM themes, like the Saturn looking themes in the new Civic.

    Well, if I was starting out life as a designer I'd want to work for a company that seemed to have a future, not one that was massively downsizing. Unless I really liked big challenges. Perhaps only the non-talented designers are left at GM.

    As far as style, I'm not sure which themes of GM's I'd want to imitate. Aztec?
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The the taillights of the 2003-05 Accord sedan look as though they were lifted from the 1991-96 Buick Regal sedan. They weren't bad looking - on either the Regal or the Accord - but apparently they weren't too popular with customers, hence the taillift for 2006.

    The new Impala, however, does mimic the Accord's front clip. I recently glanced at a 2006 Impala and briefly thought I was looking at an Accord.

    The Impala and the LaCrosse, however, do NOT look alike (or like the Pontiac Grand Prix). When it comes to the W-bodies, GM is NOT engaging in badge engineering. The cars look very different from one another.

    Whether the Impala, LaCrosse and Grand Prix can conquest customers from other manufacturers is another question.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Honda's Accord's earlier 03 tail was really bad for styling, rather for lack thereof. They had to look quick for something without doing it midyear an admitting another major goof.

    While I agree the previous Accord taillights were not attractive, GM would be happy to live with only Honda's major goofs.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    I dunno...there are some dumpy styling cues showing up at Honda, and they did get some GM/Saturn guy...it can't be a coincidence.

    I really can't think of anything GM has that I would want to imitate. And the market seems to agree. For all the hype around 'Art & Science', it's not being copied.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    http://www.carspace.com/lahiri/Albums/windowG6/

    Check the link - I had hard time believing this. The dealer is located in my area. The 4-cyl G6 is rated at only 17 MPG city/ 25 MPG highway. No styling will save GM if the cars are this thirsty. Is it possible that the sticker is wrong?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    Wow, I can do that in my 300+ hp V8 car.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    >Aztek?

    You might do better than the Element and Civic Dustbuster turned out!!!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    :D Must be a joke, as there is no such MPG listed for any G6 car. G6 is good on gas mileage, and the G6 GTP is fair enough.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well I guess the Aura is the one new car for 2007. And the question for this forum is Will Styling Save GM. Another simple styled FWD car will not. So the answer is so far no. Next question. :)
    -Loren
    P.S. The Aura looks like a good capable car. It may indeed sell. Not note worthy enough style-wise though for it to be an upward trend leader, as was CTS to Cadillac, although it can't hurt Saturn, a dealership previously without a car to sell.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I don't know when they finally went to the normal, integrated lap/shoulder belt, but I'd imagine around 1973-74?
    That would be in the 60s. Mercedes offered it on their European models, and so did BMW. Volvo also quickly adopted it. Standard non-tensionable lap/shoulder belts. You got it fit you you once and then it always fit like a glove. Extremely effective - just ask anyone who has a BMW 2002. I bought mine from Europe and surprize - the mounts are there on the U.S. models. Five minute install.

    It was an option to have power windows, but you do see them from time to time. :) The A/C was a huge under dash monster that essentially is simmilar to a window unit in an apartment. Crazy overkill. Oh - the car has dual zone heat and A/C as well. Also, it has safety glass.

    I don't know about the mechanical fuel injection problems of others, but the unit used in those 60s cars (the 220SE is very similar to the 280SE, so you get about 10 years of production there) very rarely develops problems if maintained and is often preferred to the carbs. The disc brakes on these cars are also very competent. It drives like a modern car, as I am sure you know

    Yes, it surely does. :) It's amazing how "normal" it drives. The list of things a new car has that this one doesn't is actually pretty small if you discount ABS and airbags. Conversely, an old 60s Buick drives - I mean it has so many things missing or just hopelessly not close to a modern car that it's immediately noticeable. Mine also has a nice modern electric choke. No problems starting. The Fuel injection is great - probably the first reliable one in a passenger car(1959!). I wish mine had it so much I'm always tempted to swap in the FI from a 220 into my 230.(don't like the Zenith carbs AT ALL, though they are reliable) It even has a fairly full insturment cluster, though a bit oddly oriented. GM still gave us idiot lights throught the 70s and 80s.

    It's not very fast, but let's see... 135HP(without A/C, 120HP with it on(yes, ouch!)) at the rear wheels(not net, like modern engines) out of 2.2/2.3L(FI vs carbs)... That's way more power per liter than GM/Ford/etc was doing. Plus 40 years later, it still runs well as a daily driver. The engine is - shoot, I'd have to blow it up to kill it. My 81 Buick Regal? I had to practically make a deal with the Devil to keep it running over 150K miles. It was tired, worn out, and had no compression at all on two cylinders. The 87 LeSabre was a godsend by comparison to GM's junk from the 70s and 80s.

    P.S. 1961 300SE. 3.0L engine. 195HP(gross, at the wheels). That's essentially a modern engine, or close to it - 45 years ago. In 1964, they upped it by 10HP with better injection, but it was amazingly fast - capable of 0-60 in about 12 seconds(fast, then) and a top speed of 120mph. Considering how much displacement as HP it took Ford and GM to go that fast at the time...
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Well, from that 3/4 rear view, the LaCrosse sure looks like the 2000 and later Taurus: taillights, C-pillar shape, and all!

    What has this got to do with it looking like the Impala?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Check the link - I had hard time believing this. The dealer is located in my area. The 4-cyl G6 is rated at only 17 MPG city/ 25 MPG highway. No styling will save GM if the cars are this thirsty. Is it possible that the sticker is wrong?

    I am glad you had a hard time believeing this. However this is a serious error. Pontiac will have to reissue all incorrect window stickers except this one is made up and not a Pontiac sticker.

    G6 4 cyl is 23/33

    http://www.pontiac.com/g6sedan/specs_viewall.jsp
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Stylng not helping Chrysler

    DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group has cut production of its legendary Hemi V-8 by nearly 20 percent as more consumers decide to trade power for fuel efficiency and the company prepares for lower light-truck sales through the year.

    Chrysler recently lowered Hemi production to 1,300 a day from 1,600 at its Saltillo factory in Mexico, company officials said.


    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060912/AUTO01/609120363/1148-
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    BMW and Jaguar held onto that old school look longer than anybody. I believe the trend back to round lights started with the recent E-Class.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That looks like my girlfriend's ride! Same color and wheels!
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Cadillac "explained" their three letter naming convention some time back. The first letter is supposed to be the series designator, so the "C" in CTS means the C-series, the "S"TS is the S-series and the SRX is then an S-series like the STS. Thus I assume that the SRX is the SUV or wagon model of the STS series.

    I think if you take a tape measure and measure the console width in the SRX and the CTS you will find that the SRX's console is wider than the CTS's.

    I will agree that the SRX's interior is very similar to the CTs's. However, the 2007 SRX interior is being upgraded, so that will not continue to be the case, at least until 2008, when the CTS may get an interior that outclasses the STS.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Amazing that all Pontiac vehicles in the dealership as well in other dealerships in Rochester-NY area have wrong stickers. Serious error - GM may lose sales because of this. I didn't believe the sticker because I knew that Impala had better MPG rating.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Error on GM's part. Not joke. You can even see the VIN number and the full name/ address of the dealership where it is now located on the sticker.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Something is wrong with that sticker.

    It does not have the estimated annual fuel costs which must be on there by law.

    It should have a note showing competitive vehicles mileage which must be on there by law. It should have a disclainer from the EPA stating that actual mileage will vary with ......

    There is no government website that needs to be there.

    There is no Pontiac symbol which all Pontiac stickers would have.

    It does not even look like a GM window sticker.

    AND the photo is computer generated. It does not look like a picture of a sticker on a window.

    This is something that was not supplied by GM for a window sticker. I have no idea where it came from. (I used to approve window sticker info.)

    Here is one online that is correct. Sorry I could not find a larger one.

    http://www.phs-online.com/window%20sticker%20order.htm
  • kc_flynnkc_flynn Member Posts: 45
    LaCrosses aren't bad looking cars. I'd like to see Buick make a change to the front grille on their cars, though. I think the front grille is the biggest contributor toward Buick's senior citizen image.

    What I find strange about GM is Buicks have had very strong reliability ratings over the last 10 years. I had the opportunity to drive a few Buick Centurys during vacations, and they were nice cars. Nice ride, comfy, roomy, good trunk space, they had strong pickup. Well made.

    If GM is capable of putting out quality products like Buick and Caddy, then why do they continue to put out crappy, below average Saturns, some of the Chevys, some of the Pontiacs. These cars are not that much less expensive than Buicks. It makes no sense to me.
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