And those with 2006 or earlier are left out in the cold. A not so pleasant surprise. This is just another way of trying to convince buyers that all is sweet and rosey now, everything before this should be forgotten.
Might as well just call it "The Road to Redemption" warranty. I'll be curious as to who actually will fall for this. Perception is hard to change. Those who were screwed before this glorious renaissance aren't going to be so easily swayed...
Remember Hyundai tried this idea and it paid off for them, but not overnight like you GM fans would believe will happen here.
There aren't many 'overnight' moves that guarantee success. I see this as another step in the right direction among many GM has made this year. Market opinion seems to approve of what GM is doing with the stock price up 60% this year.
This new warranty shouldn't cost too much, since GM's warranty expenses have dropped 40% over the last 5 years. In the 2nd quarter of 2006 warranty expenses came in $300 million under projections.
I left GM for 2 of my most recent vehicles. This warranty will help tip me (and many others, I expect) back to the General.
I had an NA and NB Miata. Both bought new and were well maintained. I did not mod. But I don't think your noted mods would have made much of a difference.
NA got a little better mileage than NB. I drove them both full bore, mainly working between 2 and 4 on the NA and 2 through 4 with some 5 on the NB. 6th gear on the NB was a waste of time. The engine did not have enough torque to use it for anything but boring freeway cruising. And I did almost none of that.
no car company that has EVER extended its standard warranty has made it retroactive to previous years' models. I mean, c'mon. That's asking a bit much.
I was checking out the new Aura today (nice car by the way) and the "sales associate" was quick to mention that GM has extended the warranty to 100K miles.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
One real problem is the lack of need for a Ford or GM car. This is to say, with a line of cars which are said to compete with Japan makes, but fall short in most respects, it becomes obvious they need to make stylish, new cars. Perhaps even at some new classes of cars, such as the PT Cruiser. Head to head, you have nothing but an ever increasing smaller cut of the pie for sales. Ford realized people really liked the old style of the '69 Mustang. Well, perhaps I am not alone in thinking that after all these years they could make a new Mustang, Fairlane and Galaxie 500, for the 21st century. What's up with the boring cars? If people want practical or boring, there is A-Z the Accord to Volvo. A whole alphabet of makes and models which are good, solid FWD vehicles.
Higher end performance still seems to be BMW, Mercedes, and all the high end Japan makes. I seriously doubt this is going to change, though the Corvette has been the one stand out over the years.
Something in the middle has to be American styled, and uniquely Ford or GM cars which represent a value with some flair. At least, in California, they must change to get some buyers to even look again. A FWD G6 sedan is not all that different than is say the Sonata, so there we are stuck in a buying decision which one may think twice of in buying the GM car. Is the warranty really the same - no. Is the value, as in total content more with the GM - no. Now if the G6 was a stylish RWD car, with say an inline six,and was a bit larger, perhaps there would be a reason to look it over. As it, it is lost with all the rest. Toyota is still selling the Corollas like hotcakes, so the new and improved model has been delayed. Once it hits the shores, I am sure a lot of sales of Cobalts will be siphoned off. Surprisingly, the Cobalt has sold better than I would have ever dreamt. Since it is going toe to toe with new Civics, and soon to come new Corollas, as well as, the new Elantra to come out, I would think its days are numbered. I do not like cab forward feel of the Civic however, and would not bother to even test drive one - just feels to weird sitting in one and looking out of the car from the drivers seat.
Time to find a new market. GM and Ford need something as good in cars as the SUV and truck easy money was. -Loren
nothing. And here in lies the difference between backing your product and covering it up and hoping nobody notices that the crap built before this Road to Redemption actually existed.
The exact same stigma that Hyundai (as an example) is still fighting to overcome.
Good luck to em.
Edit: Appears that if you bring a vehicle in with these issues, there is a document that will give you an extension on your waranty and replacment if necessary. But at the moment, it appears there is no published recall for either of these.
Perhaps you have mistake knowledgeable and self assured, as being cocky. Maybe it is the relaxed state they are in, knowing that they are not going to break down on the road, and that the car will likely look pretty new three, five or even ten years down the road, which makes a person boast about their ownership experience. The word fan is short for fanatical. I think most Japan model owners are not overly fanatical. They are not crazed or overtaken by an irrational zeal. They are happy campers with the brand perhaps, but that can be expected if that brand gives one great service. Perhaps the Toyota or other Japan car owner is just trying to help those lost in a world of denial. Maybe they will give you a lift when your cars stalls out on the interstate, and you will become a friend of well assured people.
My Volvo 240 was the next-to-last generation of RWD Volvos, the same basic model first introduced in the US in 1968 with a new front end clip in 1975. It certainly seemed tank-like, but actually weighed only about 2900 lbs (I had the base 2-door sedan). The body had the pronounced "shoulders" (almost like shelves) outside the window sills, and reminded me of my mother's former '61 Chevy Bel Air in that regard.
The Frontier you sat in was probably a current generation model (2005-06), and I agree that it and the Tacoma are far superior to the GM, Ford, and Dodge competition. However, my Frontier is the first year of the prior generation (a '98), so it's definitely smaller and not as refined. Back then, the Ford Ranger was probably a better overall product. But mine gets decent gas mileage for a truck and suits my hauling needs perfectly. It's also been virtually trouble-free.
About the current Sonata, though it earns an IIHS Good rating for rear crash protection (whiplash), its side impact performance is only Acceptable, not Good like my 2004-05 Camrys, or the redesigned '07 model (now with standard side airbags).
I'd consider a Sonata if not for the satisfaction I've had with my Camrys. As to why so many are being sold to fleets, I understand that sales were not meeting Hyundai's hoped-for targets. I think the reason is that the price gap between the Sonata and the Camcords have narrowed, and the V6 is not as desirable in light of higher gas prices. But they've styled it nicely IMO, and making stability control standard is commendable.
I agree 100%. That is what I find. A used car is half price with the best half of it's life gone.
Having said that, I agree with Plekto that if driving a better vehicle is more important than ultimate reliability, buy a better car used. You will probably come out fine, and you will have a really nice ride.
This is utter rubbish. "half price with the best half of it's life gone". As if. When you can by a $40,000 car for $20,000 five years later, AND it's a Lexus - ie - not a piece of junk...
The car will last 20 years and 200K miles. More like the best 1/4 of its life is used up for a 50% savings. Or you can buy a 4 cylinder Camry with stickshift. Enjoy.
The smart plan is to spend the same as you would on a new car, but get a much better built, more reliable luxury car used instead. That's how you get ahead. Better quality used is equal to lesser quality new, and the car is a better, more luxurious ride during its life(and quite possibly better handling, too)
This is utter rubbish. "half price with the best half of it's life gone".
I respectfully disagree.
Here is an example at random. Prices are in Canadian dollars so subtract about 20% to compare U.S.
2002 Volvo S80 price is $23,000 with 65,000 miles. 2006 Volvo S80 price is $55,000
The point is a 5 year old (in a few days) car is not a quarter, but about 40% of the new car. By the way, the guy who bought it in 2002 probably paid $45,000, so he did OK.
Lets say you can get 15 more years out of it, cost per year will be $1533+repairs+extended warranty, will need some at 60,000K.
If bought new in 2002 for $45,000 car will cost $2,250 a year over 20 years.
Comes out to $10 a week more for the new car. With the money I save from not smoking or drinking to excess, I would prefer to drive the brand new car, with the equipment I want, in the color I want, and with the first 3 or 4 years of completely trouble free driving. The Camry at $25,000 will cost $1,250 per year for 20 years, so it will cost $5 a week less than the used luxo car.
Not saying you are wrong. Just saying buying a used luxury car is smart and I agree with you, but there's a lot of ways to look at this!!! :surprise:
Well the savings on a used car figures out to $22K, which in a CD ylds. $1,1K per year, which is over $5,500 in 5 yrs. time. The insurance is less, the car license is less. If you want luxo, used is the way.
As for Toyota Corolla and Camry, I would buy those new, as you pointed out, pretty darn good value. I owned a Corolla for 7 years. Price in low, resale high, and almost no upkeep cost.
As for the Volvo, if he owned it 5 years, bought it for $45K net, and got trade-in of $20K say, he lost $5K per year. That hurts, IMHO !
Out of curiosity, why do people prefer the Volvo to say the BMW or Mercedes? Seem like pretty expensive FWD cars. -Loren
1:taxes, registration, insurance, and let's not forget interest on the loan until its paid off all add up to a massive amount of money. $40,000(USD) plus luxury tax and tax and registration and insurance and all the other junk, plus the loan - you'll spend another $10K more on the new car versus the used one in 5 years. That has to be factored in. $60K for a car over five years is common for a $40,000 car.
2:Depreciation is a factor that you can't ignore. Getting 20K back on a $60K car(after the costs in #1) is a really bad proposition. The depreciation from $20,000 to $10,000 is much better. Add in costs of $5K for taxes and interest and so on. Add repairs and such. 30K. Math is a bit easier that way, and pretty close.
New: A:60K-20K(what you get back)=40,000 in five years. $8,000 a year. B:70K-10K(what you get back)=60,000 in ten years. $6,000 a year.(the extra was for repairs and insurance)
Used: A:30K-10K(what you get back)=20,000 in five years. $5,000 a year. B:40K-5K(what you get back)=35,000 in ten years. $3,500 a year.
Now, that's on the high side and includes a far ammount for repairs and so on - 5K for each car if you keep it for ten years.
Check out this site's "true cost to own" section if you don't believe me. New is a financial disaster. It costs you easilt 60-100% more to own a new car versus a used one, almost without exception. Leases, by comparison, are almost always better than buying new when you factor everything into it, because you dodge the massive depreciation. Buying used to be more attractive, but leases cost you now about what the ten year pricing per month does - for a car that you drive for five. A serious win-win scenario. And, leased cars also have nice warranties covering everything.
Now - used versus a lease, that's a whole other discussion.
3:You wonder why people can't afford new houses and live like paupers, wondering where the money goes every month? New cars are hellishly expensive. $8000 a year(post-tax, mind you) is a serious chunk of most any person's income. Two cars? Let's be nice - say one is not as pricey. $12,000 a year for two cars is really common when you add up all the figures. And that's not counting gas, so add that in and it's $15,000(USD) for two cars for the average family.
Used? You save 5-6K a year. More if you buy ten year old+ luxury cars instead - closer to 8K a year for two old beaters(say two 1990s Volvo 240s or simmilar).($5,000 in total costs plus 3K in gas)
Do this for a deacade and you've squandered tons of money you could spend on retirement, investments, or a new home. Stretch this savings to 30 years and add in some modest investment.
www.cnn.com has a nice savings calculator. I put in 7% over 30 years at $5K a year savings. Your current savings will grow to: $472,303.93 Inflation adjusted (3.0%): $189,397.22
That's new VS used. Two cars, typical family. It's a massive amount of money over a lifetime/30 years of driving.(figuring your first new car is at 35 and you retire at 65)
Ten year old cars, though:(8K savings) Your current savings will grow to: $661,225.50 Inflation adjusted (3.0%): $265,156.11
Making due with one old beater and carpooling:($5K a year total, including gas and so on- 10K a year savings) Your current savings will grow to: $944,607.86 Inflation adjusted (3.0%): $378,794.44
Dang. That's some serious money. Just by changing your driving habits. That's why I drive my old Mercedes and we only have one car.
But buy that new car. I'll live with my old beaters and laugh as I actually have a retirement once Social Security collapses.
The do the testing on a dynometer, not outside in the wind or on a track, so whether the top is up or down is irrelavant. However, if there is a big diffence in the drag coefficent with the top up or down, and if the EPA uses that information in calculating the MPG numbers, which are adjusted, then perhaps there is a difference.
Finally, the EPA expects the manufacturer to do most of the testing, and they spot check. So the EPA MPG numbers are more than likely from the manufacturer anyhow.
That was Mercedes very first slogan. Too bad they seemed to have forgotten it in the last decade or so. The old ones are amazing to drive and look at, even today. Someone hand-built it and obsessed. They even put the engines into the chassis using gloves to keep the aluminum valve covers from getting scratched.
But buy that new car. I'll live with my old beaters and laugh as I actually have a retirement once Social Security collapses.
Excellent calculations. You must be an accountant or bank manager!
The thing is, the car is a business expense, so knock about 40% of the cost out of the equation.
The house is paid for and I don't want to move.
I will retire soon, so savings won't multipy much at this stage,
I should have enough to live on from savings when retired, although there are always unknowns,
You have to enjoy life too! You could cut out restaurant meals, travel, large screen TV, better computer, swimming pool, fine whiskey, etc. BUT we are here for a relatively short time. I have spent many hours in garages waiting for my old clunkers to be repaired, tried to start them when they wouldn't start, had doors that wouldn't close or lock, had power windows that wouldn't go up, been stranded in the freezing snow when a fuel pump broke down....etc.
Another point is new often means latest safety features, meaning in an accident, all those savings might not do you to much good. I think my newer car with added safety devices has saved me from serious injury at least twice, and my wife's care saved her at least once.
Your calculations are excellent and I am not arguing, what you say makes sense for most people. But, there is no blank statement that everyone should follow that way of thinking, and besides, if someone doesn't buy new, where will you get your next car?
Out of curiosity, why do people prefer the Volvo to say the BMW or Mercedes? Seem like pretty expensive FWD cars
Having owned all 3 at one time or another I believe it is mainly because most people don't know or care about FWD vs. RWD. And for others, FWD has been made out to be superior since about 1980.
I think there are some people who also might not like the idea of a Germain car. Not trying to cause a problem, but some neighbors said they would never buy a German car, and he lived in Britain during WWII...he will only buy a GM. But, the world has changed and we have to work with countries that at least aren't against us, for the betterment of civilization.
Some people believe that Volvo's are the safest cars made. They have done a very good job of advertising their cars this way. But, many European and Asian cars are built to the same standard or better.
I know that our last Volvo had lots of repairs, and the handling wasn't anything special. I would say it was a much nicer styled and finished Taurus.
As for the Volvo, if he owned it 5 years, bought it for $45K net, and got trade-in of $20K say, he lost $5K per year. That hurts, IMHO !
And if he bought the 5 year old Volvo for $23,000 he will get $8000 for it after 10 years total if he is lucky and it will cost him $3000 ayear, plus a whole lot of repairs and grief.
Once again, new isn't for everyone, luxo isn't for everyone, but let's allow that people have different needs and priorities.
I agree. It's sad, really. SAAB was one of the few last true engineering companies. I mean, they build trucks and yes, to this date, some of the best fighter jets(though a bit old, still as viable as half of the U.S. jets).
They just sold off the automotive group, which they should have required GM to stop using the name. What GM is making it into is almost grounds for a lawsuit - because it's quickly tarnishing their image by association.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen One of their more modern jets. Nice little fighter. Cheaper, faster, and of course, with that 800m runway ~ half-mile) capability(built-in air-brakes), you could almost land one on any runway.
Yeah, I think "Born from Jets" still applies, though maybe only for a few more years, when they bastardize the 9-3 into oblivion.
plekto wrote: "One of their more modern jets. Nice little fighter. Cheaper, faster, and of course, with that 800m runway ~ half-mile) capability(built-in air-brakes), you could almost land one on any runway."
Yes, the reason for the short runway requirement is that they are designed to take off/land from/on roads, not runways! Sweden, akin to Switzerland, is a neutral country, but has fierce military capability. You never hear about their capability, and that's the way they want it. Once traveling in Switzerland, a mountain in the Swiss Alps "opened up," and out flew a fighter jet - a Harrier jump jet! And, I'm not kidding. Sweden is very similar; their fighter jets (mostly SAABs) are hidden around the country, and they use common roads for take off and landing strips.
I still have two Classic 900 SAABs, both are still going strong after over 160K miles, with absolutely nothing done to the mechanicals of the respective engines or transmissions, other than normal routine maintenance since new. Neither engine (2.0L 8-valve and 2.0L 16-valve) use any oil between 3K/3mo. oil changes.
Long-time SAAB owners weep at what's happening to the marque.
I think Loren, I'd rather freeze or walk. :P I can honestly say I've never been stuck on the side of the road desperate for a lift. I however last winter gave a hispanic couple in a white camry a lift to work after it stalled. :P
Actually a comparable Camry XLE weighs 3516 # vs. the 3660# XR. Of course the Saturn has some heavier features like the larger tires and wheels, while the CAmry has the standard sunroof.
It would take quite a study to get a more accurate number but the Saturn looks to be a few pounds (100??) heavier. Perhaps it is the thicker sheet metal in the body?
But beating the competition is going to take more, Wagoner said. GM must capture the attention of U.S. consumers, who continue to migrate in big numbers to the import nameplates.
"We know we are not going to win by doing a car that performs as well, has the same warranty, same relative value to the consumer as -- you pick a product, Toyota X or Honda Y," Wagoner said. "We have to give them a product that 'Wow, that looks great! That looks better.'
The Aura IS a heavy vehicle, regardless what features it has. The original plan was to power the Aura with a 170-hp 4-cylinder and a 250hp V6. I am sure many of you remember the announcement with the unveiling of the Aura concept. During the development stage, GM found out the design was too heavy for the 4-clynider, so it substituted it with puhrod V6. That's a shame, because Saturn will miss out those people who are looking for a stylish mid-size vehicle that can deliver 24/34 mpg like the Accord and Camry.
Gee, I could have said that, and for a lot less money. Willing to work for a tenth his pay.
I like the line at the end, "The good news is that we can do that." While confidence is a wonder thing, performance is the issue at hand. The wow factor has been lost since the early 70's and may never return. They have the CTS, but have done little with it improve on it. Saw a Solstice yesterday with terribly misaligned panels. The Miata totally outclasses this car. If GM is going to best Japan and Korean makes, there is no evidence so far. The CTS half way competes with the German cars. The Lucerne, used may be a value play, but it is not truly a new car. Maybe a G6 GTP Coupe is worth a test drive -- but likely a better used value in a couple years for half the price.
The so called improved warranty falls short. It is five years short of Hyundai. The bumper to bumper is two years short. I must say, smoke and mirrors seems to work to a degree, as the press sure jumped on the news of the so called extended warranty. For the powertrain warranty, it is not bad, if you drive 20K per year, which I no longer do. For the bumper to bumper side of things, there is no change. That warranty is older the Jimme Carter.
In fairness to GM, there is very little really new product out there worth looking at. Seem to be in the era of bland, FWD sedans. -Loren
Well, the end of 3rd quarter is coming. Sales are down for the year at GM. Last year GM lost big money. They were profitable the first two quarters this year due partially to sales of the new full size SUV's but those big sales have slowed down. Nothing new really came out this quarter but Impala and G6 sales are way up from last year. The cuts have not gone into effect yet that would save GM money. Have they sold off 50% of GM yet.
Yup those pushrods JANG. Just drove about 120 miles to a hospital on relatively flat two lane highways. Only gave 37 mpg on the DIC at 55-63 mph. Oh 3 adults in a 3800 pound leSabre; 3800 pushrod. Just ain't no good.
Well if hot air about reliability, as in advertising and hype really did work, GM would have been the car of choice for the last few decades. All I ever heard was that GM was now as good as Japan quality and blah, blah, blah. The reality was quite the opposite. Been there, done that. In the 1980's and then again in 1990's they had this just as good as, or darn near as good as, theme for GM and Ford. Like the barking dog, it was no bite. -Loren
The new warranty is a start, but here's my observation in the retail market. The younger crowd looks not at GM products. Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, and Honda seem to be at the top of the gen X list. Why? Toyota and Honda have the cool factor plus reliability that their parents trusted. Kia and Hyundai market the long haul warranty and play off that image of assurance. Either way, the youth market thinks an import new car is a much safer bet, than a new or late model domestic. Now, with concern of the older generation. Most of them owned domestic product previously. They, first hand experienced just how bad a domestic product could be in the late 70's and 80's. For example, my next door neighbor bought new Toyota Avalon without ever shopping GM, Chrysler or Ford. IMO, GM has tough future in the retail CAR business. Trucks, Suv's, and niche vehicles they can and do compete. In the retail, (not fleet), new car buyer consumer market they are not on the same level as the noted imports above. New warranty or not. The domestics have not proven themselves to the car buying public. Also, I would like to bring up lack of ownership prestige. BMW, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, are IMO the white collar pride cars of today. I would bring up re-sale again but will save it for a later post. Before you call me a GM basher,remember, I own 2 current year GM products.
"#4479 of 4480 Re: WSJ Notes Increased Problems for Toyota [drjames] by phinneas519 Another factor for Toyota's recall number rising, aside from increased production, is that for a number of reasons, they have been compelled to no longer keep their recalls on the down-low or otherwise ignore them entirely. "
Let's not get carried away. New models, new engineering, more production, can lead to more recalls.
Using the same old technology and not making any changes should lead to fewer recalls.
You have to give Toyota a chance and see what happens over the long run. I have known lots of Toyota owners, my Dad had 3 of them, and I have never heard of any one with a problem.
Let's not get carried away. New models, new engineering, more production, can lead to more recalls.
Using the same old technology and not making any changes should lead to fewer recalls.
You have to give Toyota a chance and see what happens over the long run. I have known lots of Toyota owners, my Dad had 3 of them, and I have never heard of any one with a problem.
GM isnt going anywhere anytime soon. They are to big to die. It might be good if buick, GMC, Pontiac are fased out or consolidated. They need better product.
"Let's not get carried away. New models, new engineering, more production, can lead to more recalls.
Using the same old technology and not making any changes should lead to fewer recalls.
You have to give Toyota a chance and see what happens over the long run. I have known lots of Toyota owners, my Dad had 3 of them, and I have never heard of any one with a problem.
I have to agree with you on this... I've owned three toyotas, and 89 camry, a 97 Avalon, and now an 07 Camry SE, and I have never had a problem with any of them. I'm aware that my new Camry will still have to stand up to the test of time to truly say if it is as solid as Toyota's previous products, but, they've earned my trust.
That said, I also own a Porsche Boxter S and a Lexus RX 350, and have had some electrical issues with the Porsche. Again, no car company is perfect, no one would suggest that, just some are closer to it than others.
Will GM's improved warranty help sales? Probably a little, but like Hyundai has learned, it's still the product offered first. Now will GM's styling help sales, most definately, but their past reliability issues will take some time to convince the masses that their new products are solid.
It is the relentless pursuit of perfection, compared to the never ending road of mediocrity and automobile designs of the bean counters. Whatever problems the Camry has today, it will not have tomorrow. They are not using twenty or third year old engines and transmissions, so there is the possibility that something can go wrong. Well perfected, antique cars may indeed be the most reliable. . -Loren P.S. If Toyota does have more problems with the Camry and other new car launches, the whole world will know about it. Too early to count them down and out however. Too early to count Hyundai in, and far too early to say GM cars are Japan standard of quality until we see how the really new car do. Will be interesting to see first through third year reports in Consumer Reports on all the new autos. Hyundai is saying, you may not be impressed yet, so here is a warranty to hold ya over until that place in time. And those are really new cars.
Yes, the most trouble free cars are those which were the simplest. Dad owns a Camry which is good, the 2000 model, but not as perfect over time as was the 1991 model. Perhaps, if people were willing to go back to the simplest of design, like the 1990 or 91 Camry, and if Toyota had fewer models, I agree they may have fewer problems. If GM makes a new car without problems, then hurrah for the home team. What really new car fits this classification made by GM.
Let the facts speak for themselves. Let the products show their stuff. Go to a dealership and examine a Solstice close up, then a Miata. Both are new models. Let me know what you find. I was thinking of a Solstice Coupe, when they come out, but ??? After closer examination of the Solstice, I am not so sure. In FWD cars, maybe the G6 GTP is OK, and maybe, at the right price a CTS with the 3.6 engine. The first year CTS, did have some issues, so it is not on the list. And the 3.6 seems to be the best engine anyway. -Loren
Comments
It will be a pleasant surprise for those who bought their 2007s as soon as they came out.
I wonder who he will hire to fix the product (Another Lutz out there?)
Ford has all ready bought out the hourly, are getting rid of salaried, looking at selling off their finance arm, new crossovers, ????
Might as well just call it "The Road to Redemption" warranty. I'll be curious as to who actually will fall for this. Perception is hard to change. Those who were screwed before this glorious renaissance aren't going to be so easily swayed...
Remember Hyundai tried this idea and it paid off for them, but not overnight like you GM fans would believe will happen here.
This new warranty shouldn't cost too much, since GM's warranty expenses have dropped 40% over the last 5 years. In the 2nd quarter of 2006 warranty expenses came in $300 million under projections.
I left GM for 2 of my most recent vehicles. This warranty will help tip me (and many others, I expect) back to the General.
NA got a little better mileage than NB. I drove them both full bore, mainly working between 2 and 4 on the NA and 2 through 4 with some 5 on the NB. 6th gear on the NB was a waste of time. The engine did not have enough torque to use it for anything but boring freeway cruising. And I did almost none of that.
yes
Yeah. And probably meaning mumbers about 20% better than driving with the top down as it was meant to be.
Rocky
I was checking out the new Aura today (nice car by the way) and the "sales associate" was quick to mention that GM has extended the warranty to 100K miles.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Higher end performance still seems to be BMW, Mercedes, and all the high end Japan makes. I seriously doubt this is going to change, though the Corvette has been the one stand out over the years.
Something in the middle has to be American styled, and uniquely Ford or GM cars which represent a value with some flair. At least, in California, they must change to get some buyers to even look again. A FWD G6 sedan is not all that different than is say the Sonata, so there we are stuck in a buying decision which one may think twice of in buying the GM car. Is the warranty really the same - no. Is the value, as in total content more with the GM - no. Now if the G6 was a stylish RWD car, with say an inline six,and was a bit larger, perhaps there would be a reason to look it over. As it, it is lost with all the rest. Toyota is still selling the Corollas like hotcakes, so the new and improved model has been delayed. Once it hits the shores, I am sure a lot of sales of Cobalts will be siphoned off. Surprisingly, the Cobalt has sold better than I would have ever dreamt. Since it is going toe to toe with new Civics, and soon to come new Corollas, as well as, the new Elantra to come out, I would think its days are numbered. I do not like cab forward feel of the Civic however, and would not bother to even test drive one - just feels to weird sitting in one and looking out of the car from the drivers seat.
Time to find a new market. GM and Ford need something as good in cars as the SUV and truck easy money was.
-Loren
What has GM done for those faced with dexcool issues for instance?
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/gm_dexcool.html
Nothing. Piston slap on the big V8's?
http://www.pistonslap.com/
nothing. And here in lies the difference between backing your product and covering it up and hoping nobody notices that the crap built before this Road to Redemption actually existed.
The exact same stigma that Hyundai (as an example) is still fighting to overcome.
Good luck to em.
Edit: Appears that if you bring a vehicle in with these issues, there is a document that will give you an extension on your waranty and replacment if necessary. But at the moment, it appears there is no published recall for either of these.
My Volvo 240 was the next-to-last generation of RWD Volvos, the same basic model first introduced in the US in 1968 with a new front end clip in 1975. It certainly seemed tank-like, but actually weighed only about 2900 lbs (I had the base 2-door sedan). The body had the pronounced "shoulders" (almost like shelves) outside the window sills, and reminded me of my mother's former '61 Chevy Bel Air in that regard.
The Frontier you sat in was probably a current generation model (2005-06), and I agree that it and the Tacoma are far superior to the GM, Ford, and Dodge competition. However, my Frontier is the first year of the prior generation (a '98), so it's definitely smaller and not as refined. Back then, the Ford Ranger was probably a better overall product. But mine gets decent gas mileage for a truck and suits my hauling needs perfectly. It's also been virtually trouble-free.
About the current Sonata, though it earns an IIHS Good rating for rear crash protection (whiplash), its side impact performance is only Acceptable, not Good like my 2004-05 Camrys, or the redesigned '07 model (now with standard side airbags).
I'd consider a Sonata if not for the satisfaction I've had with my Camrys. As to why so many are being sold to fleets, I understand that sales were not meeting Hyundai's hoped-for targets. I think the reason is that the price gap between the Sonata and the Camcords have narrowed, and the V6 is not as desirable in light of higher gas prices. But they've styled it nicely IMO, and making stability control standard is commendable.
Having said that, I agree with Plekto that if driving a better vehicle is more important than ultimate reliability, buy a better car used. You will probably come out fine, and you will have a really nice ride.
This is utter rubbish. "half price with the best half of it's life gone". As if. When you can by a $40,000 car for $20,000 five years later, AND it's a Lexus - ie - not a piece of junk...
The car will last 20 years and 200K miles. More like the best 1/4 of its life is used up for a 50% savings. Or you can buy a 4 cylinder Camry with stickshift. Enjoy.
The smart plan is to spend the same as you would on a new car, but get a much better built, more reliable luxury car used instead. That's how you get ahead. Better quality used is equal to lesser quality new, and the car is a better, more luxurious ride during its life(and quite possibly better handling, too)
He is being developed.
I respectfully disagree.
Here is an example at random. Prices are in Canadian dollars so subtract about 20% to compare U.S.
2002 Volvo S80 price is $23,000 with 65,000 miles.
2006 Volvo S80 price is $55,000
The point is a 5 year old (in a few days) car is not a quarter, but about 40% of the new car. By the way, the guy who bought it in 2002 probably paid $45,000, so he did OK.
Lets say you can get 15 more years out of it, cost per year will be $1533+repairs+extended warranty, will need some at 60,000K.
If bought new in 2002 for $45,000 car will cost $2,250 a year over 20 years.
Comes out to $10 a week more for the new car. With the money I save from not smoking or drinking to excess, I would prefer to drive the brand new car, with the equipment I want, in the color I want, and with the first 3 or 4 years of completely trouble free driving. The Camry at $25,000 will cost $1,250 per year for 20 years, so it will cost $5 a week less than the used luxo car.
Not saying you are wrong. Just saying buying a used luxury car is smart and I agree with you, but there's a lot of ways to look at this!!! :surprise:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
As for Toyota Corolla and Camry, I would buy those new, as you pointed out, pretty darn good value. I owned a Corolla for 7 years. Price in low, resale high, and almost no upkeep cost.
As for the Volvo, if he owned it 5 years, bought it for $45K net, and got trade-in of $20K say, he lost $5K per year. That hurts, IMHO !
Out of curiosity, why do people prefer the Volvo to say the BMW or Mercedes? Seem like pretty expensive FWD cars.
-Loren
1:taxes, registration, insurance, and let's not forget interest on the loan until its paid off all add up to a massive amount of money.
$40,000(USD) plus luxury tax and tax and registration and insurance and all the other junk, plus the loan - you'll spend another $10K more on the new car versus the used one in 5 years. That has to be factored in. $60K for a car over five years is common for a $40,000 car.
2:Depreciation is a factor that you can't ignore. Getting 20K back on a $60K car(after the costs in #1) is a really bad proposition. The depreciation from $20,000 to $10,000 is much better. Add in costs of $5K for taxes and interest and so on. Add repairs and such. 30K. Math is a bit easier that way, and pretty close.
New:
A:60K-20K(what you get back)=40,000 in five years. $8,000 a year.
B:70K-10K(what you get back)=60,000 in ten years. $6,000 a year.(the extra was for repairs and insurance)
Used:
A:30K-10K(what you get back)=20,000 in five years. $5,000 a year.
B:40K-5K(what you get back)=35,000 in ten years. $3,500 a year.
Now, that's on the high side and includes a far ammount for repairs and so on - 5K for each car if you keep it for ten years.
Check out this site's "true cost to own" section if you don't believe me. New is a financial disaster. It costs you easilt 60-100% more to own a new car versus a used one, almost without exception. Leases, by comparison, are almost always better than buying new when you factor everything into it, because you dodge the massive depreciation. Buying used to be more attractive, but leases cost you now about what the ten year pricing per month does - for a car that you drive for five. A serious win-win scenario. And, leased cars also have nice warranties covering everything.
Now - used versus a lease, that's a whole other discussion.
3:You wonder why people can't afford new houses and live like paupers, wondering where the money goes every month? New cars are hellishly expensive. $8000 a year(post-tax, mind you) is a serious chunk of most any person's income. Two cars? Let's be nice - say one is not as pricey. $12,000 a year for two cars is really common when you add up all the figures. And that's not counting gas, so add that in and it's $15,000(USD) for two cars for the average family.
Used? You save 5-6K a year. More if you buy ten year old+ luxury cars instead - closer to 8K a year for two old beaters(say two 1990s Volvo 240s or simmilar).($5,000 in total costs plus 3K in gas)
Do this for a deacade and you've squandered tons of money you could spend on retirement, investments, or a new home. Stretch this savings to 30 years and add in some modest investment.
www.cnn.com has a nice savings calculator. I put in 7% over 30 years at $5K a year savings.
Your current savings will grow to: $472,303.93
Inflation adjusted (3.0%): $189,397.22
That's new VS used. Two cars, typical family. It's a massive amount of money over a lifetime/30 years of driving.(figuring your first new car is at 35 and you retire at 65)
Ten year old cars, though:(8K savings)
Your current savings will grow to: $661,225.50
Inflation adjusted (3.0%): $265,156.11
Making due with one old beater and carpooling:($5K a year total, including gas and so on- 10K a year savings)
Your current savings will grow to: $944,607.86
Inflation adjusted (3.0%): $378,794.44
Dang. That's some serious money. Just by changing your driving habits. That's why I drive my old Mercedes and we only have one car.
But buy that new car. I'll live with my old beaters and laugh as I actually have a retirement once Social Security collapses.
Finally, the EPA expects the manufacturer to do most of the testing, and they spot check. So the EPA MPG numbers are more than likely from the manufacturer anyhow.
That was Mercedes very first slogan. Too bad they seemed to have forgotten it in the last decade or so. The old ones are amazing to drive and look at, even today. Someone hand-built it and obsessed. They even put the engines into the chassis using gloves to keep the aluminum valve covers from getting scratched.
Excellent calculations. You must be an accountant or bank manager!
The thing is, the car is a business expense, so knock about 40% of the cost out of the equation.
The house is paid for and I don't want to move.
I will retire soon, so savings won't multipy much at this stage,
I should have enough to live on from savings when retired, although there are always unknowns,
You have to enjoy life too! You could cut out restaurant meals, travel, large screen TV, better computer, swimming pool, fine whiskey, etc. BUT we are here for a relatively short time. I have spent many hours in garages waiting for my old clunkers to be repaired, tried to start them when they wouldn't start, had doors that wouldn't close or lock, had power windows that wouldn't go up, been stranded in the freezing snow when a fuel pump broke down....etc.
Another point is new often means latest safety features, meaning in an accident, all those savings might not do you to much good. I think my newer car with added safety devices has saved me from serious injury at least twice, and my wife's care saved her at least once.
Your calculations are excellent and I am not arguing, what you say makes sense for most people. But, there is no blank statement that everyone should follow that way of thinking, and besides, if someone doesn't buy new, where will you get your next car?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Having owned all 3 at one time or another I believe it is mainly because most people don't know or care about FWD vs. RWD. And for others, FWD has been made out to be superior since about 1980.
I think there are some people who also might not like the idea of a Germain car. Not trying to cause a problem, but some neighbors said they would never buy a German car, and he lived in Britain during WWII...he will only buy a GM. But, the world has changed and we have to work with countries that at least aren't against us, for the betterment of civilization.
Some people believe that Volvo's are the safest cars made. They have done a very good job of advertising their cars this way. But, many European and Asian cars are built to the same standard or better.
I know that our last Volvo had lots of repairs, and the handling wasn't anything special. I would say it was a much nicer styled and finished Taurus.
As for the Volvo, if he owned it 5 years, bought it for $45K net, and got trade-in of $20K say, he lost $5K per year. That hurts, IMHO !
And if he bought the 5 year old Volvo for $23,000 he will get $8000 for it after 10 years total if he is lucky and it will cost him $3000 ayear, plus a whole lot of repairs and grief.
Once again, new isn't for everyone, luxo isn't for everyone, but let's allow that people have different needs and priorities.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
http://www.saabgroup.com/us/index.htm
They just sold off the automotive group, which they should have required GM to stop using the name. What GM is making it into is almost grounds for a lawsuit - because it's quickly tarnishing their image by association.
http://www.saabgroup.com/us/ProductsServices/products_az.htm
That's a silly amount of stuff. They're G.E. Huge, in fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Gripen
One of their more modern jets. Nice little fighter. Cheaper, faster, and of course, with that 800m runway ~ half-mile) capability(built-in air-brakes), you could almost land one on any runway.
Yeah, I think "Born from Jets" still applies, though maybe only for a few more years, when they bastardize the 9-3 into oblivion.
Yes, the reason for the short runway requirement is that they are designed to take off/land from/on roads, not runways! Sweden, akin to Switzerland, is a neutral country, but has fierce military capability. You never hear about their capability, and that's the way they want it. Once traveling in Switzerland, a mountain in the Swiss Alps "opened up," and out flew a fighter jet - a Harrier jump jet! And, I'm not kidding. Sweden is very similar; their fighter jets (mostly SAABs) are hidden around the country, and they use common roads for take off and landing strips.
I still have two Classic 900 SAABs, both are still going strong after over 160K miles, with absolutely nothing done to the mechanicals of the respective engines or transmissions, other than normal routine maintenance since new. Neither engine (2.0L 8-valve and 2.0L 16-valve) use any oil between 3K/3mo. oil changes.
Long-time SAAB owners weep at what's happening to the marque.
Rocky
It would take quite a study to get a more accurate number but the Saturn looks to be a few pounds (100??) heavier. Perhaps it is the thicker sheet metal in the body?
But beating the competition is going to take more, Wagoner said. GM must capture the attention of U.S. consumers, who continue to migrate in big numbers to the import nameplates.
"We know we are not going to win by doing a car that performs as well, has the same warranty, same relative value to the consumer as -- you pick a product, Toyota X or Honda Y," Wagoner said. "We have to give them a product that 'Wow, that looks great! That looks better.'
"The good news is that we can do that."
I like the line at the end, "The good news is that we can do that." While confidence is a wonder thing, performance is the issue at hand. The wow factor has been lost since the early 70's and may never return. They have the CTS, but have done little with it improve on it. Saw a Solstice yesterday with terribly misaligned panels. The Miata totally outclasses this car. If GM is going to best Japan and Korean makes, there is no evidence so far. The CTS half way competes with the German cars. The Lucerne, used may be a value play, but it is not truly a new car. Maybe a G6 GTP Coupe is worth a test drive -- but likely a better used value in a couple years for half the price.
The so called improved warranty falls short. It is five years short of Hyundai. The bumper to bumper is two years short. I must say, smoke and mirrors seems to work to a degree, as the press sure jumped on the news of the so called extended warranty. For the powertrain warranty, it is not bad, if you drive 20K per year, which I no longer do. For the bumper to bumper side of things, there is no change. That warranty is older the Jimme Carter.
In fairness to GM, there is very little really new product out there worth looking at. Seem to be in the era of bland, FWD sedans.
-Loren
Will GM show a loss or profit?
or maybe the Toyota comes with lots of hot air about reliability making it lighter?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yup those pushrods JANG. Just drove about 120 miles to a hospital on relatively flat two lane highways. Only gave 37 mpg on the DIC at 55-63 mph. Oh 3 adults in a 3800 pound leSabre; 3800 pushrod. Just ain't no good.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Loren
-Loren
chuck28, "2007 Toyota Camry Woes" #1590, 10 Sep 2006 5:54 am
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0d13e1/0
"#4479 of 4480 Re: WSJ Notes Increased Problems for Toyota [drjames] by phinneas519
Another factor for Toyota's recall number rising, aside from increased production, is that for a number of reasons, they have been compelled to no longer keep their recalls on the down-low or otherwise ignore them entirely. "
phinneas519, "Toyota Camry - 2007+" #4479, 10 Sep 2006 12:49 pm
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Let's not get carried away. New models, new engineering, more production, can lead to more recalls.
Using the same old technology and not making any changes should lead to fewer recalls.
You have to give Toyota a chance and see what happens over the long run. I have known lots of Toyota owners, my Dad had 3 of them, and I have never heard of any one with a problem.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Let's not get carried away. New models, new engineering, more production, can lead to more recalls.
Using the same old technology and not making any changes should lead to fewer recalls.
You have to give Toyota a chance and see what happens over the long run. I have known lots of Toyota owners, my Dad had 3 of them, and I have never heard of any one with a problem.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Excuses. Excuses. Excuses. A perfect car company doesn't have problems in its new perfect car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is true. IMO it would be cheaper to make better product for Buick GMC and Pontiac than to phase them out.
Using the same old technology and not making any changes should lead to fewer recalls.
You have to give Toyota a chance and see what happens over the long run. I have known lots of Toyota owners, my Dad had 3 of them, and I have never heard of any one with a problem.
I have to agree with you on this... I've owned three toyotas, and 89 camry, a 97 Avalon, and now an 07 Camry SE, and I have never had a problem with any of them. I'm aware that my new Camry will still have to stand up to the test of time to truly say if it is as solid as Toyota's previous products, but, they've earned my trust.
That said, I also own a Porsche Boxter S and a Lexus RX 350, and have had some electrical issues with the Porsche. Again, no car company is perfect, no one would suggest that, just some are closer to it than others.
Will GM's improved warranty help sales? Probably a little, but like Hyundai has learned, it's still the product offered first. Now will GM's styling help sales, most definately, but their past reliability issues will take some time to convince the masses that their new products are solid.
Just a thought.
-Loren
P.S. If Toyota does have more problems with the Camry and other new car launches, the whole world will know about it. Too early to count them down and out however. Too early to count Hyundai in, and far too early to say GM cars are Japan standard of quality until we see how the really new car do. Will be interesting to see first through third year reports in Consumer Reports on all the new autos. Hyundai is saying, you may not be impressed yet, so here is a warranty to hold ya over until that place in time. And those are really new cars.
Let the facts speak for themselves. Let the products show their stuff. Go to a dealership and examine a Solstice close up, then a Miata. Both are new models. Let me know what you find. I was thinking of a Solstice Coupe, when they come out, but ??? After closer examination of the Solstice, I am not so sure. In FWD cars, maybe the G6 GTP is OK, and maybe, at the right price a CTS with the 3.6 engine. The first year CTS, did have some issues, so it is not on the list. And the 3.6 seems to be the best engine anyway.
-Loren