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General Motors discussions
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And it won't sell either.. :lemon:
It has a chance. GM has a unique dual strategy.
The first are the value hybrids starting with the VUE Greenline. These use a less expensive hybrid technology. The fuel savings are not as stellar as full hybrid, but the vehicles sell for just a little over a regular ICE vehicle.
The second is the dual phase GM developed with Daimler Chrysler and BMW. The dual phase will be mainly used in large trucks and larger automobiles. Fuel savings will be impressive and costs should still be less than those in the two engine system currently used by ToyHon.
2) Honda will roll out a mass-produced commercial hydrogen fuel cell car in 2010.
GM is pretty far along in fuel cell technology. As I state above, today it announced it will sell 100 fuel cell Equinoxes to various commercial and government customers around the US.
The problem with fuel cells is that current technology does not produce hydrogen sufficiently cheap enough and there is no hydrogen delivery infrastructure.
Unlike many here, I believe the two problems will be resolved. I don't think they will be resolved by 2010. When or if the problems are resolved, GM is as ready to bring fuel cell vehicles to market as any company, including Honda.
Also, in the same year, GM will be rolling out another version of TrailBlazer under Daewoo nameplate... TrailBlazer, Envoy, Rainier, Ascender, 9-7, Dead Bravada, Daewoo who-cares-what,... and the list again goes on. :P
And, I will buy one more CR-V 4 cyl since it's MPG is almost same as VUE hybrid's! Why should I sacrifice a fifth wheel for battery packs that don't help? :confuse:
More importantly, GM engineers a much better subcompact car, called the Corsa. Sells under Opel, Vauxhall and even Chevrolet names. It is not currently available in the US because the cost is higher than most in the US are willing to pay for sub-compacts.
This excellent little sub-compact, superior to the Aveo in every way, will be available in the US as a Saturn in the next few years.
Next theory.
The current VUE is larger than the CRV. The next generation VUE, which will be at the forth coming auto shows, will be smaller.
It will also come with two hybrid options, one of which will probably get 25 to 30% better mpgs than a straight CRV.
1) GM better make some money off the hybrids. "
I could be wrong, but doesn't GM and Ford pay alot for use of the hybrid technology from Toyota.
So far, if I am getting this right, the great path to a better car is based on models from Australia and Europe. Thus the motto of GM, an American Revolution? On of us is confused here. :confuse:
I did own an Opel Manta Rallye back in 1973 and it was a very cool looking little coupe. Anything close to that looks would be a winner today. If I recall correctly, in those years, Opel was a number one selling Euro car, but I could be wrong.
This excellent little sub-compact, superior to the Aveo in every way, will be available in the US as a Saturn in the next few years.
One of the problems GM has is a bit of credibility. The Quad 4 was going to be the "home run" engine - a modern 4 cylinder. GM had all sorts of problems with it and then dropped it.
The Vue had a CVT and had all sorts of problems with it. And GM had to go to Honda for a really good engine for the Vue.
The Cobalt was going to be a great small car, yet around half of its sales are to fleets. Not competitive with Civic or Mazda 3.
GM's introductions of new technology and products have been spotty - takes a leap of faith to believe next time it will be different. Kind of like religion - believe but don't expect proof, or science, behind it.
The announced-but-not-demonstrated two phase hybrid will be outstanding, will be better than what is already out there. And Real Soon Now we will have a superior Saturn small car; it's just Not Here Yet.
Certainly the products of the future are always outstanding. At some point the future needs to be now.
1) There are probably modifications to the car sold in the US over Korea.
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They are, actually, very minor and not worth more than $500.
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2) Companies are not supposed to make profits?
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Sure, but the car in Korea already makes a profit. Estimates are that it costs about $5000 for the basic model to be made, plus marketing and other costs on top of that.
To sell a car with $5000 in materials for $12,000 is verging on criminally greedy. I mentioned it because the Aveo is a terrible value for the money when it comes to how it's built. In fact, the materials cost of a car is a pretty good determiner of its longevity. I can tel you that Honda pays a LOT more than $5,000 each for their Fit - it's clsoer to double that, or about $10,000 to build each one.(plus again, all the costs of marketing them/testing them/etc, and dealerships and so on) The base Fit only has a few hundred profit in it.
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3) The Aveo is competitively priced against all makes, including those from Suzuki and HyunKia
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You'd think that - but it's a $7000 MSRP car in Korea. GM has done a very good job at marketing its size and not its quality. The truth is that it's hardly any better built than a VW Bug - very basic and mediocre gas mileage for the engine size and power as well. Even a Yaris beats the pants off of it, with city MPG figures that are about what the Aveo gets on the highway.
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4) You are saying Suzuki and HyunKia do not make profits?
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Sure, but maybe $500 on each car. Not $4000.
Yes, that is how you see everyone else. :P
You are wrong
GM and Ford on the other hand just doesn't do enough. There are some complimentary markets but you've got two companies burdened by legacy costs, struggling to get right-sized and with overlapping product lines.
If you combine the two, the legacy costs are still going to be there and it will be even harder to right-size the company after it's combined. If all this is about is buying power, come on... how much buying power do they need?? They're already two huge global companies.
Do you agree with me on that one ? 0-60 in 9.5 for a 100 something thousand car won't get my blood pumping.
Rocky
Rocky
GM's IT Overhaul
This is something that they're on the right track and demonsatrates their buying power but good luck. They've got a long road to hoe.
You are talking 20 years ago. The ecotec has been and continues to be a competitive engine.
The Vue had a CVT and had all sorts of problems with it. And GM had to go to Honda for a really good engine for the Vue.
The VUE Greenline uses all GM engineering and parts. And is well reviewed at present. The GM 3.6 V6 is better than the Honda in the VUE. The next Gen VUE will use the GM engine.
The Cobalt was going to be a great small car, yet around half of its sales are to fleets. Not competitive with Civic or Mazda 3.
Given Chevy's fleet sales are less than 24%, I doubt your half claim is correct. I've driven all three cars. Not at all impressed with the MAzda3. The Civic is alright, but has issues. The Cobalt stands up well and is a bargain.
The announced-but-not-demonstrated two phase hybrid will be outstanding, will be better than what is already out there.
BMW, Daimler Chrysler are also hyping the system. Not just GM.
And Real Soon Now we will have a superior Saturn small car; it's just Not Here Yet.
Apparently, I am much less culturally myopic than you. If GM is selling the Corsa in Europe and South America, I see it as being on the market now, not waiting for the future.
Very wrong. GM uses different and home grown hybrid technology.
The dual phase hybrid which will be in some GM's later this year was developed by a partnership with BMW and Daimler Chrysler.
You know this how? What about shipping?
I can tel you that Honda pays a LOT more than $5,000 each for their Fit - it's clsoer to double that, or about $10,000 to build each one.(plus again, all the costs of marketing them/testing them/etc, and dealerships and so on) The base Fit only has a few hundred profit in it.
Given Honda's relatively modest sales but high profits, I somehow doubt this is accurate.
Even a Yaris beats the pants off of it, with city MPG figures that are about what the Aveo gets on the highway
Yaris costs a good deal more.
Sure, but maybe $500 on each car. Not $4000.
Making only $500.00 profit per vehicle when you sell only around 40k (Suzuki) and 190k (Hyundai) is a sure way to lose money. Hyundai just spent over one billion on a new factory. Doubt they found that money under a couch.
Typical unsupported Lahiri talk.
The dual phase will be on the market later this year. Where is Toy's new hybrid? Why is Honda backing out?
And why is GM ahead of Honda on the Fuel cells?
Next theory.
Rocky
camcord-ish it is. I hope it sells very well. It seems better dressed than both the camry and accord IMHO.
Rocky
Announcements of GM and Fords upcoming triumphs are more wishing on a star and for Wall Street.
GM will have the dual phase hybrid trucks on the market later this year.
Toyota does not have dual phase technology. Nor does Nissan.
Daimler Chrysler does have the technology - it was developed in a triumverate (I study Roman History :P ) of GM, Daimler and BMW - but so far has only announced plans to use it on large luxury vehicles.
GM's large trucks have been received well, with increased sales despite high gas prices. The dual phase will bring mpgs up significantly. What does Toyota and Nissan have in the wings? Where is ther homework.
Unlike Germany in the waning months of '45, GM has seen sales increase. And it is bringing even more relevant product to market.
Is that true? Would think that it is simpler to engineer, manufacture and assemble a rwd than a fwd. Simpler should equate to less cost.
I am thinking of a rwd with trans immediately behind the engine.
But in a car, where you want as much quiet passenger and storage space with at least reasonable exterior proportions and light as weight as possible, there are challenges.
Add the computer technology necessary to keep indifferent rwd driver's on the road, and you have more expensive technology.
My understanding is the Impala will take the sigma but replace alloys with steel and use less exepensive components. Not unlike what Chrysler did with the 300.
If it was not, a whole bunch of cheaper cars would be offered in RWD.
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Shipping from Korea we pay for - just like Hyundai. It's about $650 last I checked, same as Hyundai.
Given Honda's relatively modest sales but high profits, I somehow doubt this is accurate.
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Actually, it's true. It's pretty much a loss-leader for them in Japan and elsewhere to get people hooked on Honda later in life. It has side airbags, ABS, and a bunch of other features that cost money - and that aren't standard on most of the competition.
Now, a Civic or Accord - whole other story. Loads of profit in those.
Yaris costs a good deal more.
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Well, According to this site(base model, manual transmission, including delivery):
Yaris: Total with Options $11,530 $10,872 $11,530 TMV
Aveo LS: Total with Options $12,365 $11,716 $11,989 TMV
I'd call it a dead heat. A total win for the Yaris, since we know it's like the Fit - very little profit for Toyota and very high levels of mechanical quality. Average price is actually $400 less on the Yaris. Bad GM!
Making only $500.00 profit per vehicle when you sell only around 40k (Suzuki) and 190k (Hyundai) is a sure way to lose money. Hyundai just spent over one billion on a new factory. Doubt they found that money under a couch.
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That's for the Fit. But worldwide, Honda's sales of the Fit are in the hundreds of thousands - and of course, it's not the only car they sell. All of those small amounts of profit add up.(and there's easily 5K in profit on a S2000 for instance, and 50% on most dealer options)
Hyundai also - their base model Accent isn't making them much money. But they don't sell many stripped-down Accents, do thay? Most have options on them and the profit jumps to $1000 or so - more on the bigger vehicles. A fully loaded Surburban, for instance, is easily 10-15K profit in GM's pockets. And that's before the finincing insanity - easily 20-30% profit on the vehicle if you do normal financing through them and don't get 0% at the end of the year.
Hyundai also is a huge player in other countries in heavy machinery and they own Kia as well, so it all adds up. Building that plant is a major cash outlay for them in any case - they've been saving for a few years to do it.
The thing about the Aveo is that it's far beneath even typical GM quality. It's nice looking, but still a total tin can and decade old technology. 26/34(Automatic) is terrible. A Chevy with the 3.5L V6 at a thousand pounds heavier and twice the power and displacement - or close to it gets, what? 30mpg highway? GM charging roughly 50% markup on a $7000 car(and again, that's MSRP in Korea, which gives them enough money evidently to keep the dealers and people employed and a decent salary) isn't right.
To be honest I have never been in one but this Motor Trend review seems to think the interior is better than what you make it out to be. Not saying it is world class but surely not as bad as you think it is.
The exterior styling is what everybody notices first, naturally, but interior design is the most winning feature of the five-passenger Aveo. The big news is that the cockpit feels surprisingly roomy and far larger than the exterior dimensions would seem to suggest. The tall proportions of the car provide ample headroom. Rear legroom could be better—an almost universal lament—but there’s a decent 11.7 cubic-foot trunk in the sedan, and the rear seat of the hatchback folds flat and flips forward to form a cavernous 42 cubic-foot storage compartment. The driver sits up high in a well-bolstered, height-adjustable seat and scans the tasteful twin-pod instrument panel—which includes a tachometer—through a tilt steering wheel. New seat fabrics are offered for 2006, and adjustable headrests have supplanted fixed-angle units. Although hard plastics abound, they’re a cut above the expected industrial-grade materials, and they even fit together well.
In fact I wonder how the 3rd qtr profits are going to be. Ford and Chrylser have said they will lose money. Nothing out of GM.
How Wagoner saved GM from the brink.
OK,I am not aware of this. Where did you see this?
Daewoo no longer exists. There is a company called GM DAT that owns the rights to use the Daewoo name with autos and related products.
GM DAT has begun to sell upscale vehicles in South Korea and has increased its market share. In fact, the next generation VUE and the Opel Antara are based on a design from GM DAT. (forgot what it is called in Korea)
Yaris: Total with Options $11,530 $10,872 $11,530 TMV
Aveo LS: Total with Options $12,365 $11,716 $11,989 TMV
I'd call it a dead heat. A total win for the Yaris, since we know it's like the Fit - very little profit for Toyota and very high levels of mechanical quality. Average price is actually $400 less on the Yaris. Bad GM!
GM has better financing and sells the Aveo in promotions. Toyota charges MSRP and at best offers 5.9% (or at least the best I've seen).
That's for the Fit. But worldwide, Honda's sales of the Fit are in the hundreds of thousands - and of course, it's not the only car they sell. All of those small amounts of profit add up.(and there's easily 5K in profit on a S2000 for instance, and 50% on most dealer options)
I believe Honda sells somewhat less than 2 million vehicles world wide. But their profits are in the billions. If they are losing money on hundreds of thousands of Fit sales, then they must be really raking people over the coals with everything else.
How is that moral in your scheme of things?
Also, I think that all this discussion about two stage hybrid or one stage hybrid is way overblown- the vast majority of vehicle sales for the foreseeable future will be from conventional gasoline (and maybe diesel, but that's a long shot also) engines.
But since there is so much profit (more than $5000 from a reputable source here
Funny how quick it happened. Less than one year after you and the media gave GM up for dead they are making profits with gas over $3 (1rst and 2nd qtrs). Wonder what the profit will be for the 3rd qtr now that gas is closer to $2 and if it stays that low how the 4th qtr will go?
hey, but who knows what will happen in the future. Housing could collapse in this country (already has in Detroit area) and all htose home equity notes may not be able to be paid. Gas could go up to $5. All I know is that change happens.
RWD, redesigns are a happening and just look at the 2007' line-up and how much better it looks. 2008, and 2009, look to be great years coming. Quality, Reliability, are all up and sales are up even in these troubling energy times.
GM, looks alot better off than Diamler Benz or Ford.
Rocky
Good thing those are the only brands that they're competing against
1)Reduced their health care contributions to the UAW and retirees in particular. Not only that, the big negotiations with the UAW are in 2007 and they are going to be VERY aggressive in their bargaining with them
2)Offered buyouts to thousands of overpaid workers and replaced them with new and lower cost workers
3)Bought more parts from overseas suppliers instead of high cost Delphi (which is going through its own agonies)
4)Generated cash by selling parts of GMAC (this one could come back to haunt them)
5)Cut back production so that they could reduce incentives and the cost of carrying excess inventory
6)Taken massive write downs and reduced white collar employment also
So fuel prices have given some relief, but they still aren't in the clear yet. They still have lots of work to do on their car lines in North America. If you look up GM's rating by lots of the brokerage houses, it is still considered a speculative investment. Plus they still have all of this incredible debt and pension obligations. This is NOT a healthy company, don't believe the hype.