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  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Don't see any new cars for 2007. Are there some new - really new GM cars for 2008? The CTS looks like a decent make-over. The current one is actually an eye grabber. When people are talking new GM cars, I assume they are talking more SUV and trucks. Seems to be the concentrated effort of GM these days. Perhaps GM should just sell Cadillac cars, and GM/Chevy trucks??? The LaCrosse did not seem to take off, and the Lucerne is a less expensive DTS, so Buick cars are pretty much history. The Pontiac line is Solstice, a really new car, and the G6, which is a new car, which I guess is selling. The coupe is kinda attractive and the sedan seems to be liked by some. Looks just a bit odd to me. Chevy has no new cars. Well there is the Corvette, which is a keeper. The Cobalt - its a car, another cheap FWD car, oh boy. Is there anything coming along to perk things up? Saturn Aura is OK -- could just as well sell the Opels over here. Maybe at Cadillac dealerships, just as well. And add the Saab to the sales floor at Caddy dealerships. The rest is SUVs and trucks. Parts is parts, they all look the same to me.
    -Loren
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    The warranty is spelled out not only on their website, but of course very specfically in the owner's manual. Hyundai allows owners complete access to all online shop and ETM manuals, plus all TSBs on their website. And, you can also sent up your maintenance schedule and records on their website as well. Finally, you can order parts on their website and have them shipped to your local participating dealer for pick up and payment. Hyundai appears to be consumer-oriented company.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    That's it. Wagoner can snap his fingers and make a thousand dealer contracts disappear.

    Can we please promise to stop talking overnight realignment without a rational way to buy out the dealers? Somehow, I don't think this is the fantasy auto franchise forum.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Hyundai appears to be consumer-oriented company.

    Smoke and mirrors.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    logic1 wrote:

    "The more rational response to Hyundai's warranties - and the reason GM stayed away from extending theirs - is that Hyundai is telling the market it makes junk, but don't worry, we will fix it."

    I beg to differ! As one who's worked in manufacturing engineering, and actually specified warranty policies and terms, a company that offers long warranties can't afford to make junk. The warranty costs will eat them alive. In fact, the opposite is true. A company that offers a long-term warranty has great confidence that their product is a quality one with minimal long-term warranty requirements.

    I'm sorry to break your bubble, but Hyundai does not use customers to Beta test their products.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    G6 is selling well? If you look at the sales figures, Malibu appears to be selling well too. Actually, excessive fleet sales, rebates, 0% APR, employee pricing, supplier pricing, GM card are driving the sells. Without these I doubt what the sales figures would look like. Accord at most gets some factory to dealer incentives. When the new Accord will arrive, it won't even need that factory to dealer incentive. I can't wait to see 10% off or 0% APR on the new Aura!
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    According to you, Hyundai can't afford junk. Agreed. But I have a question - can Hyundai get rid of this long warranty?
  • rs9904rs9904 Member Posts: 15
    I read but rarely post. Some of you are so anit-american companies that you sound spiteful and petulant. I would like this post to not be deleted so I will not name names but my god everything is negative-doom and gloom and everything not american made is outstanding. I appreciate honesty and you are certainly entitled to your opinion but when this country is no longer producing products and unable to pay your social security or retirement or protect you because it is financially in trouble because of trade deficets and our companies going out of business then it wont be just about GM style our way of life will be altered to the negative.

    I hope that those whom this applies to take this in the spirit in which it meant.

    My grandfather and uncle worked for GM and I have owned GM products including SAAB as my last five automobiles.

    Have a nice day
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Will the Accord be a cab forward design. I don't like the feel inside those Civics. Cab forward was OK on the Chrysler 300M, but I don't car for it on the smaller cars, and the Civic the whole deal inside just feels strange to me. Everything looks farther away than say the New Beetle, which has the large dash. Anyway, I wonder what the new Accord will be like. I don't see the point in yet another Malibu in FWD. Too many -- really too-too many FWD sedans to choose from.
    Would love to see a Monte or Malibu in coupe and sedan, with RWD and new six, perhaps an inline 6.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Nothing wrong some people demanding good product and backing of that product. It is all pretty basic in a free market place. Right product, price, quality, marketing, backing in form of warranty and out of warranty, style, performance and well it all goes back to the word product. The problem with GM is that it left the customer, as much as the customer was looking elsewhere for better deal. Once people tried the Japan or German car they liked the handling, feel, durability, and road-ability and did not return to the domestics. I have owned both and actually gone back to American a few times. Currently own a PT, which was screwed together well in Mexico. Little concerned over oil consumption, which was never a problem with Japan makes.
    Overall, a good little vehicle.

    As for Social Security, it would have helped if the government had actually saved the money we have put into the pot. I.O.U. notes are not worth much. Guess people will have to work for other makes, if the Big Two no longer have product. If they have product people desire, and it can be made in USA for a reasonable price, then it happen. No magic to it.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I know, the reality looks more like bankruptcy now doesn't it?
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    hmm. Let's see. CTS, Enclave, Arcadia, Outlook, Ion replacement. What else? I can't think of any new products that will be released by the end of 2007. Maybe some face-lifted models but that's all. I will be surprised if Chevy went for 4-year cycle for the current Malibu and released a new one next year. I was hoping for a new better engine for the Equinox/Torrent, but still same ol' 3.4 V6 for 2007. Oh well, maybe next year.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM is saying our cars don't last even if you baby them and only drive them 10K miles per year.

    Wow, then what the heck is everyone other than Hyundai and Kia saying? They build them to last 5 years but forget about anybody who drives more than 12,000 mimes per year? That their powertrains are trashier than GM?

    Recall that most new car buyers sell their car by year 5. GM's warranty is great for those who drive more than 12K per year which is most drivers. And for those who buy up the used 2-3 year lease cars they (new car owner/company) can get more money and the residuals go up. Good deal for GM and both the new and used car buyers.

    How can someone cut down a company when it's warranty is better than everyone elses except two companies. Boggles the mind.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I guess GM makes lots of money selling parts to owners of low quality GM vehicles. I'm not surprised that GM doesn't want to offer anything more than 3 year/ 36000 miles on Chevys.

    It is the same warranty on Honda and Toyota and most others. Guess they make money on the parts too?

    Can anyone see the disparity in thinking here? Because GM does it it is bad and they are making money in parts while everyone else is just OKDokee.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Malibu is 2008.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >I guess GM makes lots of money selling parts to owners of low quality GM vehicles.

    Last I read here and saw at the stores, Honda and Toyota have parts counters in their dealerships!!! Trolling continually about GM and quality because you had an s-10 or whatever that didn't work for you won't change opinions.

    >3 year/ 36000 miles on Chevys.

    5years / 100000 miles drivetrain warranty. You know that; why are you distorting the facts?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Even Oprah picked a Chevy for her Oprah-on-the-Road cross country trip with Gail, her friend. Don't normally watch oprah, but when I channel-hopped and saw the overhead shots of a bright red SS with Oprah heading to Las Vegas and wondered "what the heck"? I had to watch. It continues this Tuesday.

    Bright red with white leather interior. Sounds good, too.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    CTS, Enclave, Arcadia, Outlook, Ion replacement. What else?

    Wow that is a lot of new vehicles in one year. Can any other company do the same? Perhaps Nissan is the closest.

    In a slightly different look what else needs replacement at GM? Criteria is long life cycle (over 4 years) and/or need updating due to sales/quality issues. (other than vehicles mentioned above)

    At Chevy most all the cars are less than 2 or 3 years old. Most all selling well. Malibu is replaced in a year and it really is hole in Chevies line up. In trucks the trailblazer is old, as is the Colorado. But it may be they do not replace the Trailblazer. Perhaps the Equinox could be updated? Minivan is new but needs complete redo.

    GMC has the same issues at Chevy for trucks BUT they do get the Arcadia to sorta replace the Envoy (if they drop the Envoy).

    At Pontiac the Grand Prix is getting long in the tooth. It is now 4 years old! maybe a replacement in 2008? Wonder if they will replace the Vibe/Matrix? Minivan is being dropped.

    At Saturn the Vue is getting old but I think the replacement is coming soon. Other than that all brand new.

    Buick is dropping their minivan/Rendezvous when the Enclave comes out. Lucerne is brand new. LaCrosse is 3 years old and a replacement soon.

    Cadillac has nothing older than 2 years except the STS and the XLR. Vehicles like the XLR have longer life cycles. STS will problaby come out 1-2 years after the CTS?

    Nt sure about Saab and Hummer but do not seem that old.

    Did I miss any?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The 2005 GM Annual Report received the following ARC awards.
    Gold Overall Annual Report
    Gold Chairman's Letter
    Bronze Written Text

    In addition, the 2005 GM Annual Report received an American Graphic Design Award for excellence in communication and graphic design. This award was received by only 50 of the 5,000 entries submitted.


    The ARC Awards, established in 1987, were created to honor overall excellence in annual reports, and to encourage noteworthy and vital writing, as well as imaginative and original design. This year's entries were submitted by companies located in 26 countries representing over 200 industries.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    Oh well, yet another post from someone who thinks that anybody who doesn't think that GM/Ford/Chrysler products are great is anti-American- not so!!! Kind of like some people in Europe thinking that people that don't buy their local software solutions (which are often awful!) are not patriotic to their own countries (I am in the high tech business and 75% of our sales are to foreign customers).

    And I think GM is moving as best they can to re-structure the company into a smaller, but at least profitable company- they have to face reality that a 20-25% market share in North America is what they will get. My concern is that the past 10 years have shown that even when they start with a "blank slate", some of their new designs and types of vehicles really miss the mark. And some of their successes (Saturn Sky, Chevy HHR) are still pretty low volume. So they have lots of work to do. I think they are making progress- not out of the woods yet, but not all doom and gloom.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Oh well, we should just rename it "What's wrong with GM" or "I hate GM." That would make it so much easier.

    Have other car companies had new designs and types of vehicles that miss the mark?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    "can Hyundai get rid of this long warranty?"

    That's their biggest competitive advantage and has fueled their climb to respectibility. Why would they drop it when it's going well? They've actually got the biggest car company on the planet trying to catch up.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    "Have other car companies had new designs and types of vehicles that miss the mark?"

    Of course they have. I don't think that the issue is a design that missed the mark, it's alienating customers through consistent mediocrity and shooting for the middle for 2 decades.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >shooting for the middle for 2 decades.

    I'm not buying a car two decades ago. I'm buying a car _now_.
    :cry:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    I know, the reality looks more like bankruptcy now doesn't it?

    If your reality is Middle Earth, perhaps.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    But his point was the ill will and bad experiences accumulated over the past couple of decades. When you've moved on to something else that provides more satisfaction, it's going to be doubly hard to get you back to GM (or Ford, Chrysler, or for that matter, VW).

    Chrysler did manage to pull some back with standout styling (not that I like it particularly) on the 300 and more recently on the Caliber.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I guess since the UAW forum was closed it's time to also take apart GM now. :sick:

    Rocky
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    No baseball player bats 1000 and no company will be perfect with their product offerings. And yes, even Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Mercedes/Etc have had their share of product misses (Sequoia, Accord Hybrid/Mercedes R Class come to mind). Maybe the GM ones stand out (Aztec!) because they were SO bad. I hope the Aura does well, they need a good hit in mid size sedans.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    This is the catch-all forum about GM's troubles. The title ought to be changed to "What will it take to save GM?"

    Then we can continue to discuss warranties, managerial savvy, relations with the UAW, build quality, reliability, pricing, AND styling.


    Agree with your point. There is nothing sacred about a title. This board's title was originally about "2006 styling" and it was changed to simply "styling".

    Styling is too narrow of a topic about saving GM and would hope that our host would think about broadening it to what you suggest or something similar. As an alternative, perhaps the host would consider closing down this board and opening up a new one with your suggestion of: "What will it take to save GM?". Come to think of it, there could be similar boards for Ford and Chrysler. Another alternative or addition could be one big grand board, "What will it take to save the 2 US branded car companies + Chrysler"?.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Agree- What will save GM and is GM doing it?
    I would not put Ford and Chrysler all together. While the problems are similar between Ford and GM, Ford is about a year or two behind in the a lot of the changes that GM has implemented.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think that this topic has run its course and should be terminated. It has become the all things GM focus, but the host(s) don't like that.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    I understand your point. My point is that the continual repetition that because he had a bad vehicle, for whatever reason, all vehicles now are poorly made by GM. I've had good experiences through the decades. Perhaps I've maintained mine well and chosen the originl well.

    I had troubles with Ford's junk through the early years. That was when I chose cars based on image and how they made me feel rather than picking a good car. Zoom. Zoom. etc.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I bought Buicks for a long time because I liked them, mostly because of the automatic climate control. Also because I learned to drive my grandmother's 1950 Buick.

    The title of this topic was "will styling for 2006 save GM" - since they have not gone bankrupt yet, we have to conclude yes.

    Concerning the LaCrosse sales: LaCrosse is selling better than the Regal did. Not as well as Century. The Lucerne is doing better than the LaCrosse, which is very interesting.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    imidazol97: I had troubles with Ford's junk through the early years. That was when I chose cars based on image and how they made me feel rather than picking a good car. Zoom. Zoom. etc.

    I always thought that during the 1960s and early 1970s, GM cars had more youthful and upscale image when compared to Ford, Chrysler and AMC offerings. The two exceptions were the Mustang and Thundebird.

    During the 1960s, Chevrolet and (especially) Pontiac were the hot ticket for the young, "with it" buyers. The Olds Cutlass and 442 also had a very good image.

    During the mid-1970s, about the only cars we lusted after in high school were the Camaro Z-28 and Pontiac Firebird Trans Am.

    If you were lucky, your parents thought "young," and they bought a Cutlass Supreme coupe, Pontiac Grand Prix, Buick Regal or Chevrolet Monte Carlo or Laguna S-3. The Ford and Chrysler offerings weren't really up there in image or status (except for the Lincoln Continentals and Marks), and the AMC offerings were a joke.

    I'm not saying that GM cars were bad, or all show and no go, but they were also bought for image by lots of people.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I've had good experiences through the decades. Perhaps I've maintained mine well and chosen the originl well.

    I had troubles with Ford's junk through the early years."


    Just out of curiousity, what would it take to get you back in a Ford?
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    "I'm not buying a car two decades ago. I'm buying a car _now_."

    And if you're buying GM, you're still getting a mediocre product. What mass market car is class leading? The products appear improved, but still not best in class.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Fords never really interested me, except the Thunderbird, but I liked the Riviera somewhat better. I did like Chrysler's in the early 60's for their ram-induction engines. The Ford (Lincoln) that really got my attention and interest was the Lincoln LS. I think that the CTS is a better car, but the LS did have a V8...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Is the CTS all "new" or just modified?

    My oh my that Grand Prix needs a redo...it may only be 4 years old, but it looks a good few years older. One of GMs heavier handed current products, and another vehicle that rarely sells to private parties.

    Saab 9-5 has a new face, but the basics are quite old, 1999 or so.
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    Simple solution IMHO is to purchase a factory GMPP bumper to bumper add on to bring the bumper to bumper coverage to the term you plan to keep the vehicle. Will all the computers, electronics, etc. ANY vehicle out there can get expensive after warranty. Paying or pre-paying if you want to call it that is well worth the insurance to me that I won't have a very costly repair to engine, transmission, various electronics/computers, window regulators, sunroor, etc. I would rather pay out the $1000 or so over the (my) life of the vehicle than risk a $3K-4K unplanned expense.

    Aftermarket parts at you local favorite parts store would probably be less than buying at the dealership as well.

    It just happens that GM makes more vehicles that fit my needs that most of my needs and is usually competitively priced if not less that some of the others I would consider.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The 2008 CTS is supposed to be an updated version of the sigma platform - called the sigma II platform or second generation sigma platform. I think that the platform is improved, but is not all new. The CTS will have updated styling, but will not, from what I have seen, be totally new.

    The Grand Prix is on the W-platform, which was new around 1988. The Grand Prix is probably going to be replaced with a RWD.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think a 3 year/45000 mile extension of the bumper to bumper warranty might cost more like $3-4000.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    "The Grand Prix is on the W-platform, which was new around 1988. The Grand Prix is probably going to be replaced with a RWD."

    Did you see that one on Motor Trend? It looks just like the GTO they just killed in 4 door form with a gaudy wing on it. I'm all for family styling, but Pontiac sticks with that beak theme a little too much since it doesn't seem to resonate with most buyers. Something closer to the Solstice would seem fresher.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think the Motor Trend GP was a proposal from Holden, or a concept from Holden. I don't really like the Solstice's look either. I did like the Pontiac's styling back in the mid-60's. Recent Pontiac's are not quite what I would buy.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    My father has had two Grand Prix's for company cars, a 99' and a 2004... both GT's. Driving dynamics of the new one were much improved over the 99' and the engine is much smoother and quieter. The one thing about the old GM's that I hated was the popcorn popper exhaust note for their V6 offerings, and thankfully the 04' is much more subdued.

    But the interiors on both of them were/are so cheap. Even on the new one, the dash plastics are hard, the gaps are uneven and the little 4 bit graphics on the information display are so 80's. The front seats are cushy and unsupportive, the rear seats are "cupped" in a way that your bottom is forced away from the rear cusion leaving an uncomfortable arch in your lower back. And head room in the rear seats is sorely lacking so your head hits the rear window if you lean back.

    On the reliability front, the 99' ran for 150,000 miles before getting traded (He bought it out after the 2 year co. lease). By that time the car had a slipping tranny, a broken Window regulator and was on its third set of ball joints. Oh and I think the Radiator was done somewhere in that time as well. But the car didn't let him down. The 04' is up to something like 50 - 60k now and has a couple of dash lights going off and on and brakes on all 4 corners need to be replaced (pads, rotors). Oh and the intake manifold cracked and was replaced the first month he owned it.

    But they have been somewhat reliable. Just your typical no frills 3800 with a 4 speed. Nothing special, but they get the job done. :shades:
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    On a Seville (your previous posts indicated you had one) the 36 month 45,000 extension (if still within 4 year, 50,000 mile original warranty) List is $2765, discounted price $2295. This would take it to at most 7 years, 95,000 miles.

    I was really looking more at a class 3 rating such as Envoy or Yukon that has a 36mo 36,000 mile warranty. Adding 36 mo 60,000 mile extension (if vehicle is 24 months old and has 24000 miles) would bring your total warranty up to 60 months and 84,000 miles) list is $1695, discounted price is $1225. These are for $0 deductible, less expensive for $100 deductible plans. Much less that $3-4000.

    The pricing and terms have changed a little in the past couple of years. Purchased one on a new 2004 Envoy XL in May, 2004 and back then the plans started at 'in-service date and miles'. Now they start at date of purchase and mileage and add the # months and # miles to what you already have.

    Check it out at www.gmoutlet.com if you want details.
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    I got a follow-up note...looks like a price increase at end of month and pricing for 2007s with the longer warranty have been released but are not on gmoutlet.com site yet:

    2 Important Notes:

    ******************

    A: The GMPP 2006 Pricing Expires on 9-30-2006. The HIGER Pricing 2007 GMPP Program starts on 10-1-2006. Buy BEFORE 9-28-2006 to save!



    B: If you are inquiring on a 2007 “NEW GM Vehicle” call us at 877-472-9550 as the new lower prices were just released reflecting the new 5yr / 100,000 miles included Engine & Transmission New Vehicle Warranty. (The new lower prices are not online).
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Perhaps, but where would everybody go ???? Somehow I just don't think it would be in Edmunds best interest to take down a GM forum like this. Everyone of them had by far in away been the most popular ones "even though it's been renamed a few times since I've joined". I will miss the UAW forum, but won't miss the ganging up I received. ;) Lucky I had a few good posters in my corner and they know who they are. :D

    As far as styling saving GM, well it's about more than just that. I think many will agree that GM, across the board makes the best styled exteriors. The interiors have always been the low for GM, OTOH we are finally seeing that when GM, puts its mind to a goal it can accomplish it. I know I sound like a typical GM, apologist and I "might" just be one. :P I however as a critic can recognize the bad past also. ;)

    I do believe we are witnessing history because the biggest turn around in corporate america's history is taking place before our eyes. Perhaps someday the new generation UAW, workers will have a pay and benefits package that is a benchmark. Hopefully by that time we as a society experience a overhaul of ethics both by business and government. However I do believe the worst is yet to come before we begin to see changes for the good. :(

    I guess the "Rise and the Fall" of great empires takes place on this earth. Thankfully GM, didn't "crash and burn" and addressed the problems. I agree the problems are far from over and lots of new styling and engineering needs to take place. This will be a company life-long business health plan.

    Once GM offers class leading products and sales then it will signal a complete turn-around of once was considered the greatest company on this nations earth. Perhaps a merge of two corporate dinosaurs like General Motors and Ford, the soldiers can join hands and turn to wipe out new foes that have attempted to send both dinosaurs to extinction. I as a huge fan of my last two remaining domestic automobile manufactors can only keep my fingers crossed and pray they can win the war, since they have lost a few battles along the way to the present. ;)

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Concerning the LaCrosse sales: LaCrosse is selling better than the Regal did. Not as well as Century. The Lucerne is doing better than the LaCrosse, which is very interesting.

    LaCrosse is selling at about the same ATP as the Regal. Remember that the Regal had an outrageous life cycle and was heavily incentivised and fleeted. Century sold at a much lower price point. Brand new ones often at under $20K.

    laCrosse has plenty of competition in the premium midsize. Lucerne has basically no competition except maybe the Avalon.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Is the CTS all "new" or just modified?

    Rarely is a car all new. CTS is based on the same architecture but to the consumer all visible parts will be different. Perhaps the same floorpan and suspension.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Lucerne has basically no competition except maybe the Avalon.

    Well I suppose one could also throw in a Acura TL, and maybe even a RL, as competition. What about as Lexus ES ?

    But yeah I agree the Avalon is by far the main competitor and I think the Lucerne does a decent job in a comparo. ;)

    Rocky
This discussion has been closed.