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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Shoot, if I could get a V-8 Lucerne for $20K, I'd just sell my '88 Park Ave to some kids and head on down to my nearest Buick dealer in a New York second.

    http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=208501405
    Okay, not in New York, but pretty close. \

    But me - I'm waiting for two year old ones - next fall is the time to move. 15K and um - *slightly* better than a Corolla. Heh.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well if, over time, it is as good as a Corolla, then $15K for a larger car may be a pretty good buy. First it has to be of Corolla standards. Keep an eye on the Consumers Report data. I think the next one is out some time in March 2007. If that looks good and JD Powers looks good, that is something to on. Of course most cars look good the first couple of years. Just checked the JD Power data and it looks like the Lucerne is a close second to a Corolla -- not bad ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Wow! That has to be a bargain, lots of content for the money. And yeah, in a year, 15K will be reality. What a deal.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I think all cars look better when they are equipped with new chrome shoes. Dubs of at least 20 inches make a auto look its best. I agree it only looks good when the tires will fit properly underneath the wheel well. I'm proud of Cadillac incorporating 22-inch shoes on the Slade. :shades:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yeah because a consumer would have to be completely dumb to choose a Carolla over a Lucerne. The Carolla is a nice sardine can but americans are retarted to pay as much as they do for resale on these type of vehicles. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    That would bring the coverage to 7 years and 90-95K miles on your Seville. It is always a calculated risk to keep a vehicle...major repair could well cost more that $3000. But it you don't have any major repairs, then you save the $$$. The offer from GM sounds like a list price. GMOUTLET.COM shows a discounted price of about $2295 for 3 years/ 45000 miles on a Seville class vehicle...more reasonable, but still a lot of cost for 'insurance'.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Rear hip room is 57" which is only about 4" less than a full size Tahoe 2nd row.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    What is happening with the Grand Prix? There is only a 27 day supply out there which is way below optimum. sales are down slightly, production is down. ??? When is Oshawas 2 closing?
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    Only problem is that Motorweek never saw a car they didn't like. They may have a slightly negative comment to say they have balance, but then follow it up with a few positives to minimize it. I have settled down to one favorite - Autoweek. Tell me the negatives and I can make a solid decision. Give me fluff and I know nothing. I also like Jim Healey of USA Today. He tells it like it is. Past reviews are available online.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    It's going to be a slow seller until the Holden Commodore SS-V gets a Pontiac front end and gets introduced to our market IMHO.

    Rocky
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    And they said the interior of the Aura "outclasses the Accord and easily rivals the Camry. This is the best car interior GM has every done." Also said "Aura is the most impressive family sedan from GM in decades".
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Will the designs coming from Europe and Australia be better? It will be interesting to watch the reliability reports.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    "one problem I have with European cars is that hardly any of them will run on regular fuel."

    Todays cars will run on regular fuel with no problem. The computer will simply adjust accordingly. They say you will get a bit less mpg and power though. If there is a big price differential, I run regular in our 03 Avalon and notice no difference. At a 10 cent price premium I almost never use premium.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    It's amazing to me that americans can't design vehicles anymore, or is it that american management hasn't allowed the designers and engineers to make fun to drive RWD good looking cars ?

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I wouldn't want chromes on my C43...I think on a performance car, chrome wheels are kind of tacky and poserfied. Chrome = luxury, not speed. Notice how most performance cars indeed don't have chromes.

    20" wheels on my car would look retarded, dubs on my fintail would be insulting to the car. But on a big fat SUV, they look more normal, yeah.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    On your C43 I'd put some spinner 24's on it. :P :shades:

    I guess fintail I like the "bling, bling" on about any new sporty or luxury car. The new Acura TL Type-S has the worst gray rims of any car ever made. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The second one, I think. That, and many of the good engineers and designers have already fled for warmer and more promising locales.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Chromes work on some cars. To be on topic, they do work on many highline GM cars. I like chromes on a DTS for example, to make it look different from a rental. But no whitewalls and other tack-ons. I also think they work on most Lexus and other Japanese luxury. I don't really care for them on most modern MB though, or BMW for that matter. If I had a new S class it wouldn't have chromes, although if I had another old one it would.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Evidently a minority view of a quality car, since the value is considerably higher over the years than any GM sedan. A worth of a car is not by the pound.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Some years ago, they made a Grand Prix GTP which looked pretty good. I think it was in the later 90's. That look, in a RWD car, may be the ticket. Current one got a bit more squared. Not bad at some angles though.
    -Loren
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Designing a car is one thing and styling is another. A stylist can draw something, but the designer/engineers will have to make the drawing into a production vehicle, and there are limits.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, you can count me in that minority. If a Corolla and a Lucerne were priced the same, I'd take the Lucerne in a heartbeat.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    My understanding of the extension is that you are extending from the date that you buy the coverage, so if I had bought the 3 year extension when it was offered, about a year or more ago, I would have gotten only 6 years of coverage, not 7, and the extra 45,000 would have been added to the then current mileage. As near as I can tell, a 7 year/100,000 coverage was not available for my Seville.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I don't think there is much difference in fuel consumption, but there is some difference in performance. A lot depends on engine tuning. Premium will not give an engine tuned for regular added performance, but an engine tuned for premium will have a bit better performance on premium than regular.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well you still have enough common sense left lemko. ;)

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Five to ten years from now, they will be equal priced. Actually, a Cadillac is equal in that time span, so I guess a Buick would be well under the price of a Corolla in less than ten years. And it appears they will have at least two buyers. ;) Actually, if I was looking for a roomy cruiser, the Lucerne will be an inexpensive choice, with some style to it. For reliability, my bet would still be on the Corolla. For resale value, unless there is a drasitic turn of events, Corolla wins. Car for the money, cush ride, Lucerne wins. But that is a hard way to win, as in a better value based on no resale value. Something GM needs to improve on. Best bet on that would be to move to more crisp styled cars, and less rental fleet looking stuff. Japan and Korea are very capable of selling loads of FWD, very sound cars. It is time for some new cars. Unless they want to merge with Hyundai, and shoot for higher production -- nahhh. Just let Toyota do the numbers game, and concentrate on profit, while building cars of better class. Make cars which stood out as beauties, like say a GM gem of the late 60's, when style meant more. Modern day, style leading cars.
    -Loren
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "Well, you can count me in that minority. If a Corolla and a Lucerne were priced the same, I'd take the Lucerne in a heartbeat."

    Well, I'm with you all the way lemko - having rode in the back seat of a Corolla last Friday, I'd EASY take the Lucerne, even if it cost more! So maybe you're not a minority. Besides, the Lucerne is ugly, but the Corolla is no looker either, so why would anybody buy the Corolla over the Lucerne except for possibly gas mileage? ;)
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    How bout this for basic guidance - the assumption that each is a quality product?

    1. WHEN BUYING NEW, GO FOR BEST RESALE.

    2. WHEN BUYING USED, GO FOR WORST RESALE. (Lets say 3 years old coming off lease and planning to drive it til it drops as best case.)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Econ 101, isn't it?
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    I sent this letter to GM through PlanetFeedback.com. You can do the same for many brands and companies. Check it out.

    GENERAL MOTORS PRODUCTS

    I have been watching with interest the proposed alliance with Nissan and Renault, and I just read the USA Today article on Rick Wagoner. While he talks about a turn around, there is little mention of product. I also recently read a comment from a GM official at Pontiac, I believe. The gist of it was that GM would not try to match quality, or refinement, with the top Japanese brands but would try to sell enough to survive by selling multiple brands. Anyone who thinks like this has no business in the organization. I couldn't believe what I was reading. American automobile company’s have been piddling around with their heads in the sand for well over twenty years, poo poo-ing the threat from Japan until it was too late to handle and now, one has to wonder how long you can survive. While Rick may be doing good things, you need to think PRODUCT, PRODUCT, PRODUCT.

    I just read an article on the new Impala. It said the car was hard to fault - IN A VACUUM! But when compared to the Camry, Accord etc, it was lacking. TWENTY PLUS YEARS AND IT STILL COMES UP SHORT. Unbelievable. Another review compared the new Pontiac retractable convertible to the Volvo (I think) and said there was NO comparison. The Volvo was far better. WHY? Did Pontiac use the head-in-the-sand isolationist approach? Something is very wrong here. Surely GM has better expertise and tools. You know folks, it's hard to sell mediocre.

    OK, talk is cheap. So what would I do? Well, maybe your products are better than we think. I have been driving foreign products for over twenty years. Why? I am only willing to pay for a product once. Not again in maintenance and repairs. I don’t want to lose my butt on horrible resale value. I still don't trust your products. I'm not willing to pay the price of a new vehicle that can't hold it's own on resale value, not to mention reliability. OK, maybe you have improved there. When you start kicking their butts on this, make a refined and fun car to drive that will hold it's value, I may be back. I always used to drive GM products as did my parents. Our kids drive Japanese. It's tough to turn back.

    You say you have competitive products. How are we to know, with no good reason to visit a GM dealer? Well, every year I attend the BMW/Komen test drive. What a great way to discover what their products are all about. So, why aren't you doing it? You MUST get people back into your cars if they are to see that you now have a product they would be willing to buy. This is an excellent way to do it.

    ENGINEERING: They cannot operate in a vacuum either. Buy the best in class. Assign them to your design/engineering people and rotate them through on a weekly or monthly turnover. THEN TELL THEM TO GO AWAY, DESIGN YOUR PRODUCT TO EQUAL AND PREFERABLY BETTER THAN THE BEST IN CLASS, AT, OR UNDER, THEIR PRICE POINT, AND DON'T COME BACK UNTIL YOU DO. YOUR VERY JOB DEPENDS ON IT.

    PRODUCT FEEDBACK: Every service call on a vehicle should be automatically fed back to engineering - NOT marketing or bean counters for review. When a failure rate for a part, area, whatever goes over say, 1 - 3% ??,? a red flag is raised, and an engineer is assigned to find a solution within a short time frame. Then implement it.

    Read every review and note ALL negative comments. Assign engineering to improve what ever it is. You MUST, if you are to improve your game. LOOK AT HYUNDAI. They came out with a new product, and it was a piece of crap. See what they did and learn from it. THEY CAME FROM LAST PLACE AND PASSED YOU IN A FEW SHORT YEARS. What is your excuse?

    Now, you may, and I hope you already do these things. But if you are, IT"S NOT WORKING VERY WELL. HYUNDAI PASSED YOU. If that doesn't wake you up, heads should roll. Excuses don't count.

    I do like what I see from Cadillac, Solstice etc. If you think this is all sour grapes, let me say, I do see hope. In fact, I just bought some GM stock, but I want my investment protected and to see it grow. You are still far from being where you should be.

    THE ALLIANCE: I have mixed feelings. I WOULD like to see Ghosn have override power. He has proven himself, and may spot things that could be done better. I would also like to see new, or prototype designs exchanged with other brands engineering groups to be critiqued and improved before production. This could evolve into a team that does this for all products. They should also be driving best in class to keep up to speed on the latest and best. I used to work directly with designers, and would search for existing or cheaper alternate components, and we saved lots of money this way. Nissan may give you valuable input from a Japanese prospective that could be applied across the board. You need their kind of thinking and to learn from it. OR, hire some of the Japanese manufacturers people to implement changes. There is always a better way. Anything you pay a top individual will pay dividends. If they don't produce, fire them. Oh yea, keep em away from the union. Chrysler has improved their image – and probably saved money by using Mercedes parts. If Nissan or Renault has a better design that you could use, do it, and vice-versa.

    Sorry for the negatives, but believe that if I didn't care, I wouldn't have taken the time. I don't drive American - yet. I hope you can change that.
  • alp8alp8 Member Posts: 656
    I think you guys have done a great job with this discussion, but you are taking my point to an extreme. I am not arguing that we should only buy used cars. I am arguing that if you need your car to be a "smart" economic decision, then you should buy used.

    Hopefully, we can all be in such comfortable financial condition, that we don't care if we lose money on our ca purchase. We can drive what we like.

    But if you are living close to the margin, and if losing a few thousand bucks over a few years is a problem, then buying new is not wise.

    I do have another (competing) argument, however, and that is that we ALL owe it to the country (and to the world) to buy NEW cars, to push worse MPG and worse emissions vehicles off our roads. And it stimulates the economy. Buying used doesn't accomplish either of these goals as quickly or as much as buying new.

    So, if you have the $$, then you owe it to the world to buy new. If not, then go out and buy used.

    I just think it is silly when people buy new and say they bought that particular new car because of its great resale value. That means you bought the car as a financial proposition. If that IS the case, then you should have bought used.

    Buyer: "Woo-hoo! I bought a new Corolla because it has great resale."

    Wise Advisor: "Er, yeah, but you could have driven around in luxury in a two-year old Lucerne and be in better financial position three years from now than with your new Corolla"

    ;-)
  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    BRAVO!! Many excellent points!

    In my 40+ years of car ownership I've purchased ony one care made in the USA, and that is an Acura. I too would prefer that my country produce the best products for my needs that I would be pleased to own, and that preference has NOTHING to do with styling.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    2000 Sonata

    image

    2006 Lucerne

    image

    Might as well copy a winner
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    Actually, the Lucerne has a nice profile, and they finally modified that long time grille theme that reminded ne of an idiot looking cornfused and saying Ooooooooohhhh? Amazing what a simple alteration can do.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    ROTF !!! I doubt GM, used the Sonata as a styling reference even though I can see why you'd say that. ;)

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I don't recally see the Sonata in it, no more than those who claim MB copied their E-class taillights from an 00 Taurus. The Lucerne is a little more angular and the rear seems a bit higher. Most sedans have the same basic shape anyway.

    Funny thing about the Lucerne...at this level of depreciation, I might actually consider one as an everyday car once it is a couple years old. It'd have to be totally loaded - all safety features - but I can't see anything with so much content for the buck. I used to think used Deville/DTS were a good buy, but this is like the same stuff for 60% the price.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://www.leftlanenews.com/wp-content/plugins/iimage-gallery.php?idpost=3818&id- g=1&idi=1

    This is the best picture for you non Motor Trend subscribers I know of for the all new Grand Prix due out in a few years. ;)

    Fintail, is it time to trade in the the C43 ? :P J/K but I personally like it. It just needs a mega-watt 7.1 DVD-A surround sound system and a few more gadgets for lets say $35,000 and it would be crowned the new king of the 3 series crowd. ;) :shades:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Agree with ya pal..... I can someday see myself driving a used Lucerne back n' forth to work as my work car.

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I've seen that pic...looks pretty much like a Holden, is it based on one? It aint gonna replace my car, and I'm not going to spend 35K on any car anyway. I like cars, but I'm also a cheapskate in some ways.

    Sometimes I'd like something where I can haul 4 people vs 3 (the C43 has poor rear legroom, and I drive with the seat all the way back as I am relatively tall, so it's a 3 seater)....if the Lucerne does well in reliability over the next year or two, it could be a good one to go after.
  • escambiaguyescambiaguy Member Posts: 35
    Something about the Lucerne looks muscular, I don't see that in the Sonata. The current Sonata is an improvement though. Everytime I think of Hyundai I think of the awful Excel from the 80-90's. I don't think they will ever shake that image off. Same with Kia, that first Sephia they came out with was garbage. It ruined their reputation.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593
    Great photos for comparison. IMO the Lucerne really does look like`a copy, and I think the Sonata looks way better.
    Sonata is cleaner, flows better, grill looks classier.
    It's like the Lucerne uglied up a good design!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I've seen that pic...looks pretty much like a Holden, is it based on one?

    Yes it's a Holden, in fact it's a Holden Commodore SSV pal. ;)

    It aint gonna replace my car, and I'm not going to spend 35K on any car anyway. I like cars, but I'm also a cheapskate in some ways.

    That's hard to believe that you are a cheapskate. :surprise: A man that drives a Mercedes, I'd would think would be a high-roller :)

    Sometimes I'd like something where I can haul 4 people vs 3 (the C43 has poor rear legroom, and I drive with the seat all the way back as I am relatively tall, so it's a 3 seater)....if the Lucerne does well in reliability over the next year or two, it could be a good one to go after.

    So you like to do the "Detroit Lean" as my grandfather calls it also. Yeah, I like to recline and sit relatively low like you pal. I prefer a car that has good lateral leg support that gives comfort to my lower thigh area. :)
    The Lucerne, will make a great used car IMHO. So would the DTS. If the DTS, had a Bose 5.1 Studio Surround Sound System, their is no doubt I'd buy one used in a few years and pay a little more for one.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    :confuse:

    Okay.....?

    Rocky
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    The likeness never hit me until I saw two parked next to each other today. The Lucerne is much larger but the shape of the headlight assemblies and the grills are very similar. Tongue was mostly in cheek, but I do see a resemblence.

    What does ROTF mean?

    On the Holden G8, why does it look kust like a 4 door version of the GTO that they just killed? Do they ever learn?
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593
    and it would be crowned the new king of the 3 series crowd.

    I don't think so! For one thing, it looks like a current Grand Prix.

    I admire your optimism Rocky, but no BMW 3 Series buyer is going to be interested in a Pontiac that still looks like a 10 year old model that they peeled the plastic cladding off of, and added the racing stuff along the bottom. Instead of bringing out SUV's GM is concentrating on gas guzzling racing models, is this what most buyers are looking for?

    I would like to see GM succeed but I really have to wonder, keep shooting themselves in the foot!!!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I guess most Honda buyer's today also never remember the 600 and the orignal Civic CVCC that rusted away in a few years. Hyundai is "shaking off" its previous reputation with a quality product today. Take a serious objective comparative look at a Sonata for example, and make you own decision. The Chevy Vega was no better than either the Excel or Sephia, in fact having direct experience with a new one in 1973, I would say it was worse. So, extrapolating your statement, how could Chevy ever be considered as a quality manufacturer?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    ROTF=Rolling On The Floor

    ROTFLMAO= Rolling On The Floor Laughing My [non-permissible content removed] Off ;)

    On the Holden G8, why does it look kust like a 4 door version of the GTO that they just killed? Do they ever learn?

    Actually if you look close it looks quite a bit different in my eyes. The interior is very much updated in the aussie version. I do hope for the U.S. market they bring a few more gadgets along to really make it a winner. :shades:

    I also think the G8, Holden Commodore, aka Grand Prix, will be a sales winner if they can deliver the content and price. ;)

    Rocky
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    Actually if you look close it looks quite a bit different in my eyes

    In the case of a BMW where the car is loved, looking close to see the difference is good. Pontiac sticks to the beaknose style but it just doesn't resonate with most buyers. If you have to look too close to tell the difference between the G8 and the GTO, that's a problem. Also, what's with the boy racer wing? You don't see those on BMWs and Acuras.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I don't think so! For one thing, it looks like a current Grand Prix.

    I think you need to take off your goggles, and look at a current Grand Prix vs. the pic I posted above. :surprise:

    I admire your optimism Rocky, but no BMW 3 Series buyer is going to be interested in a Pontiac that still looks like a 10 year old model that they peeled the plastic cladding off of, and added the racing stuff along the bottom.

    Thanx for admiring my optomism. I also think a true brand wearing BMW, also gets caught up with wearing peoples names on his jeans since he/she doesn't have enough self confidence in him/her self. The same apply's with his/hers cars IMHO. ;)

    Instead of bringing out SUV's GM is concentrating on gas guzzling racing models, is this what most buyers are looking for?

    They are doing both. When you are as big as GM, you can mix and match the flavor of the day. I think a car company that only does "one direction" engineering like Hyundai, is bland and boring. Who's to say the next Grand Prix, won't offer a hybrid version anyways ? ;)

    I would like to see GM succeed but I really have to wonder, keep shooting themselves in the foot!!!

    I don't think they are currently shooting themselves in the foot. The GTO, was a great car, but it looked nothing like what a GTO, should of. I think it would of been more successful with another name. I'd like to see GM, try it again since the car was one of GM's best and helped give people hope when it came to interior quality and "fit and finish" ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Also, what's with the boy racer wing? You don't see those on BMWs and Acuras.

    Well I see plenty of M's and RSX's with boy racer wings. :confuse:

    Pontiac sticks to the beaknose style but it just doesn't resonate with most buyers.

    Well the same styling for 50 or 60 years has worked for Porsche. They must have the lowest R&D costs of any manufactor in the world since it isn't hard to modify their styling. :confuse: The same can almost be said about BMW, until Bangle ruined it. :mad:

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Sorry Rocky but someone just pontiac upped a Holden car. The GP will not look like that. It will also be too big to be in the 3 series crowd.
This discussion has been closed.