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General Motors discussions

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  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    " I think most all of us agree that Honda, is the best manufactor of engines in the world. Where's their "inline engine" at ? "

    The S2000 is the only rear drive model Honda makes, and it is too small for a 6. All their other models are a transverse engine / front wheel drive configuration. Pretty hard to fit an I6 sideways in a small car! :D I'm not sure I agree about the Honda engines. I have owned a few Honda/Acuras (including my current Acura with a 3L V6), and they all had wonderfully smooth engines. And the VTECH engines do make marvelous power for their given displacement, at high RPM. But none of them could ever be considered 'torquey'. You have to rev the piss out of them to make good power, and downshift a gear or two to get back in the powerband to pass. They are also a bit high-maintenence; they use very thin and light piston rings to attain that easy revving quality, and will last a long time, if well maintained. But if you're not dilligent about oil changes (like 3k miles or less) and air cleaners, you will shorten its' life expectancy considerably.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I don't think anyone has mentioned the Suzuki Verona's 2.5 litre DOHC 155HP I-6. It's a transverse installation and front-wheel drive, of course. The Verona was a GMDAT-built vehicle, and the engine was co-developed by Porsche. I guess that wasn't enough, as the engine is very trouble-prone, especially the top end with tons of reports of valve-related problems. And, it's also not very economical. It's unfortunate, as the basic engine design is well done.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    There you go again teacher. I didn't know that either. ;)

    Rocky
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    BMW had a 3.5L I6 back in the 80's and 90's, used in the 5 and 7 series. They have most likely downsized to smaller, higher revving motors to make the same power in the interest(s) of weight savings, the space considerations you mentioned, and the CAFE mandated fuel economy regulations.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I don't know what I want. I think as long as it meets my and your criteria then we both will be happy. GM, did develope a TT 3.6 V-6 for the Velite Concept and Buick Grand National GNX concept. I guess you former inline-6 owners are the best judges ? :)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Good points and probably all are true. :)

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Honda's VTECH engines get the extra horsepower by increasing the valve lift at high speeds, which allows the engine to breath better at high speeds and shifts the peak horsepower point to a higher speed. Basically, without the higher valve lift, torque would fall off sooner, resulting in a peak horsepower point at a lower engine speed, and much less horsepower. The extra valve lift keeps the torque up for a bit longer, so peak horsepower is larger.

    The high speed valve lift does nothing for low speed torque though.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    But if you're not dilligent about oil changes (like 3k miles or less) and air cleaners, you will shorten its' life expectancy considerably.

    Well Honda told me to change the oil when the light came on in my former TL. Perhaps they solved the "piston ring" problem ? Regardless I'd still like to see GM, use some Honda engines if they aren't going to spend the R&D on engine technology.

    Rocky
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    It's not that "more cylinders is better", it's that an I-6 has a lot less weight, less gears inside it, one common camshaft - and it's the third most smooth non-boxer engine possible.

    Thank you, that was a great explanation and very interesting. Well written too.

    Hope Rocky reads it. ;)

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    I think GM, is headed down the right track and their is plenty of room for improvement. I suppose we will see a 6-speed auto as a base transmission in the next yr or 2.

    Glad to see GM catching up.

    Oh, oh, looks like they will fall behind.....

    Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus brand is going even higher. It is working on an eight-speed automatic transmission, industry executives say.

    Lexus 8 speed auto

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    I doubt they'd ever use Honda stuff, or that Honda would sell it to them, for that matter... But they do have interest in some good european companies (i.e. Saab and Opel). And yeah, they do need to do some engine R&D. Calling it 'Cam-in-Block' doesn't change the fact that it is an outdated pushrod motor. Perhaps if they spent more on R&D and less on marketing, they'd do better. They still have a gem in the small-block V8, though! Still a LOT of life left there...
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The S2000 is the only rear drive model Honda makes, and it is too small for a 6.

    The S2000 is front-midship so there is enough room under the hood for a small I6, though you would have to relocate one of the body braces and the longer engine would deteriorate the weight balance of the car.

    A smallish (2.5-liter and below) I6 could fit transverse into the space occupied by a large I4 but it would have to be strongly undersquare to do so, which would kill the revability that two extra cylinders would otherwise provide.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    GM already uses Honda engines - the 3.5L SOHC V6 in the Saturn Vue is a Honda engine - at least it was the last time I looked under the hood!
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    I think most all of us agree that Honda, is the best manufactor of engines in the world. Where's their "inline engine" at ?

    Good question Rocky.

    Plekto, where are you?

    My uneducated guess is that it cost a lot to develop a new engine. And, since Honda has an excellent V-6 that can easily fit into most of their cars they don't want to stretch their resources to make an engine that would have limited appeal. Also the FWD factor is probably a good reason to stay with a V-6. It is probably smart to stay with what you do best.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The high speed valve lift does nothing for low speed torque though.

    Not directly, but having one set of cam lobes for operation from, say, 6000 to 9000 rpm allows the engineers to optimize the other set(s) of cam lobes for operation from 1000 to 6000 rpm rather than the whole range.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I know that and that was going to be my reply to wideglide. They also use the Toyota 1.8 4-cylinder in the Vibe. ;)

    Rocky
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "They also use the Toyota 1.8 4-cylinder in the Vibe."

    Actually, they essentially use the Toyota Matrix AS the Vibe... ;)
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I doubt they'd ever use Honda stuff, or that Honda would sell it to them, for that matter...

    GM does use a Honda V6 in the Vue in trade for Honda using GM diesels in Europe. Honda also supplies the engine for the Aerial Atom. They'll sell to pretty much anyone who is willing to pay for them. GM, however, is the archetype of NIH syndrome, so there's no chance they would adopt Honda power in any meaningful way.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    I-6s are great engines when floating in space, but they have practical difficulties due to their length.

    - They require a long hood, resulting in a long car or small interior space.
    - The resulting car has a center of gravity farther forward.
    - Less crumple zone space.
    - Less crush space for pedestrian safety.
    - Less adaptability (harder to put the same engine in several of your brand's models).

    As a result, it's only a practical configuration if smooth performance is your #1 priority. So BMW uses it, sacrificing interior space, affordability (50-50 balance through use of expensive materials), and pedestrian safety (their European ratings are pretty lousy).

    A more pedestrian company like Honda makes a practical car first, and then makes it as sporty as possible within that frame. (I'm thinking of the TSX/Euro Accord, same size as the 3-series but more spacious, affordable, and safer, but obviously without comparable dynamics.)

    Until their current generations, the Nissan Skyline (Infiniti G35, but before it came to the US) and the Lexus IS had inline 6's, but I think they decided they couldn't beat the 3-series dynamically, so they should go for other advantages more easily acquired with short V6's.
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    Yes. You are correct. They have several classes based on 12/12000 or less, less than 24/24000 and from that until expiration (normally 36/36000, 48/50000 on Caddy). So, if you were going to purchase one of these to get max extension, you would wait until just before the first one runs over then purchase. I looked back at the GMOUTLET tables for your Caddy and you could have extended the 4 years by an additional 3 with either 45K or 54K additional to push it to 7 years and 100000 miles. List is a little over $3200, discounted is $2700+...not inexpensive. Not bad for 7 years of coverage, but not inexpensive either. (There is a different table for 2001 & 2002 models than the 2003 and newer if the first set of price tables.)

    GM says you can buy extended coverage as long as you are still under the original warranty. So, you could have bought it when you were offered or later as well.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    That is true. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    It's better to get a GM extended warranty up to 100K from the get go. I wonder since the powertrain is already backed on 07's if the price for the rest will go down ?

    Rocky
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    SLS,

    Didn't the 3.8 go to Renault, or at least the tooling got sold to them,? I believe in the late 60s ~ early 70s and then Buick had to buy the tooling back from them? :confuse:

    And the aluminum V8 went to Rover Group for the Land Rover / Discovery and they used that (or a derivative) until the BMW buyout? :confuse:

    I say let's grant m1's wish for a car I6 and bring back the ol Stovebolt!! ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    What in the heck is a Stovebolt ? :surprise:

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    The 231 v6 was a V8 with two cylinders missing.

    Then it was sold to Jeep.

    Then it was bought back from Jeep. Then when GM owned it they improved almost continually until today.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I wonder since the powertrain is already backed on 07's if the price for the rest will go down ?

    Yes, those revised cost are now available.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Chevey inline 6 that was used for many, many years. had one in my 52 chevy.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    62,

    Thanx...I was just curious if GM, might pull a fast one on us. ;) Glad to see they have sound business ethics at the top. Now the dealers OTOH.... :surprise:

    Rocky
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    The 250 I6 was around forever and lasted forever
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Okay...wow that's a long time ago. Weren't those cars pulled by horses to get them started. :blush:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    How long was forever on avg. back in the boer war days ?

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Didn't the 3.8 go to Renault, or at least the tooling got sold to them,? I believe in the late 60s ~ early 70s and then Buick had to buy the tooling back from them?

    The Buick 225 V6 was sold to Jeep in the mid-60s, who used it for a few years until AMC replaced it with their own engines. AMC then sold the tooling back to GM since they weren't using it anyway, and GM enlarged it to 231 c.i. (3.8L). The aluminum 3.5L V8 was sold to Rover and GM tried to buy it back in the '70s, but Rover instead offered to license it to GM and GM declined.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The "stovebolt" was an ancient GM I6 introduced in 1937 (213/235/261 ci) and used until 1962-3 when it was replaced with the 230/250/292 I6s.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    can be traced back to 1962 I believe. That year I think it debuted as the 194 in the Chevy II, and was also offered as a chopped 4-cyl of 153 CID. An enlarged 230 version was offered for 1963 and it replaced the old 235 "Stovebolt" 6.

    IIRC, the engine weighed about 450 pounds, which was considerably lighter than the old Stovebolt, which I think was close to 600 pounds. The 230 went on to become the 250 around 1968. By 1977 it was the base engine in the Nova, Camaro, Malibu, and Caprice/Impala. The LeMans used it in '76, but went to a Buick 231 for 1977. However, when the downsized 1978 Malibu/Monte Carlo came out, the engine may have been too long to fit in those cars, so Chevy came out with a 200 CID V-6, which was a chopped 267 V-8.

    In 1980 Chevy ditched the 200 and decided to chop the 305, which gave them a 229 CID V-6. This engine ended up replacing the 4.1 inline in Camaros and Caprice/Impalas, while the Nova went away, being replaced by the FWD Citation.

    It was a good, durable engine, but never was very powerful. HP was usually around 105-110 net which, while low by today's standards, was comparable to most domestic engines of about that size back then.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    So GM, did make I-6's interesting ;)

    Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Thanx...I was just curious if GM, might pull a fast one on us

    I am talking about the GM extended warranty programs. Dealers can use whomever they want.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I was also talking about the extended warranty from GM. I wouldn't buy anything other than a GM warranty if I could help it.

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well BMWs are safe, and I would take an inline 6, RWD car over an Accord any day. I would think more people would choose the Bimmer. That said, Mercedes V6 would be OK, not sure about the rest of the car though reliability wise. Looks like only the SLK seems to reliable. But that may change. And yes, the Honda engines are good. Now where are the RWD cars to wrap around them? If I want space I could get a used Lucerne for a couple of bucks, or a mini-van. I want a car to DRIVE. :shades:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://www.chron.com/class/cars/featuredvehicle/080906.html

    This truck is so awesome.... :shades: What a shot !!!

    Here's some other great ones of my dream truck....can't remember if I posted this once before or not

    http://www.netcarshow.com/gmc/2007-sierra_denali/

    Those pics further prove that GM, "is the standard of the world" when it comes to trucks and SUV's ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/UPDATE/609260430

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    GM wages a losing battle to tame healthcare costs

    How General Motors and the nation are losing an epic battle to tame the health care beast

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/LIFESTYLE03/609260338- -

    Guys read these very very closely to see our problem. ;)

    In U.S., it's pay more, get less

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/AUTO01/609260346

    Nationalized care the norm

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/AUTO01/609260345

    Rick Wagoner, interview Video :

    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage

    Rocky
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    As a personal favor, can we please NOT dive into the 'Nationalized Health Care" cesspool of a topic in this thread?

    Please? Because it will get REAL nasty REAL quick and has very little to do (IMO) with saving GM.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I wasn't posting it to dive into a national healthcare and yes agree we shouldn't discuss it on here. I posted it for your reading enjoyment.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/AUTO04/609260369/1148- /AUTO01

    Rocky
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Sorry - I had assumed that if you posted it for our reading 'enjoyment' that you meant for it to be discussed.

    Frankly, I'd rather undergo a root canal than go off on a tangent discussing the causes out-of-control health care costs and whether or not a National Healthcare system is the answer.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Okay, I agree....I think I'd rather drive across country in a Kia Rio than discuss that again also. :D

    Rocky
  • escambiaguyescambiaguy Member Posts: 35
    I think we all know that when a car ages the transmission will fail, most of the time before the engine does. It already cost $2500 to replace a 4spd auto. How much would a 6spd cost,$3500? And a 8spd,$4500? I think the 6spd automatics will have to prove their reliability before I would buy one.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    You do bring up a good point. We all saw what happen with the 5 speeders. Some of them were costly. ;)

    Rocky
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I think I'd rather drive across country in a Kia Rio than discuss that again also."

    LOL!

    Lessee....root canal.....Kia Rio.....root canal....Kia Rio.

    Tough choice..... ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    ROTFLMAO :D That is a toss up huh ? :blush:

    Rocky
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