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I don't need to explain, do I? Ok, because the car is used once you drive it. You can only drive newer used cars vs. older used cars, etc.
You NEVER get good resale on a car. Your loss can only be mitigated somewhat, some better than others. No car is a good financial decision unless you're dealing in antiques or specialty cars.
Cars are a horrible financial decision, which is why I am so broke. I love cars.
Leasing new cars has its advantages, if you don't mind always having a car payment, and you want newer used cars all the time. But if you drive a lot of miles, leasing is not going to work. And it's not the most economical way to drive.
The most financially sound way to drive is to buy new, and keep it 10 years or more.
You can drive a nice MB for relatively cheap if you know what to do, and can accept higher than average maintenance costs. That's what turns these cars into money pits, when people don't keep up with them.
I really need thigh support, I don't recline so much as I stretch my lower body. I also have a bad knee, so I end up needing to move around a bit if I drive for more than a couple hours. I like to move around without getting out of the car. I have my seat all the way back, all the way down, side bolsters inflated a little, seat cushion usually deflated so I can change positions.
I don't think the DTS is styled very well, but there's a lot of material for the money when they are a couple years old. But you'll be able to get most of it in a Lucerne for significantly less. Heck, I've said I would drive one...that's something in itself.
Too big ? What ? It would be the size of a Acura TL, G35, and those are direct 3 series competitors. :confuse:
Rocky
Rocky
I agree that all car buying decisions are poor financial ones. And I think we all agree that keeping a good car for a long time is the best way to make a good "financial" decision with a car. (Of course, you could make a batter financial decision if you start with a car that is a year or two old, but....)
But my point is a narrow one, and it seems to be one that there is disagreement over
no reason to discuss stuff we ALL agree on
Rocky
I don't think any car manufactor can guarantee that. OTOH My dad's 98' Z-71 pick-up has over 250K on it with no breakdowns.
Rocky
FWIW I don't think many people cross shop the TL with the 3er either, it seems kinda bigger.
Oh no, did I say fly? Too many in those ads already flying, best keep the wheels on the ground.
As for the best 3 series car, it is made, and will always be made by BMW
An automatic, with lumbar supported seats and telescopic steering columned CTS, with a 3.6V6 for around $30K may be a better deal than a BMW3. Current one is simply overpriced for a baby Cadillac.
-Loren
For the performance end, a near like BMW car selling at under the German car price. For $35K or $40K, I would just get the BMW or Mercedes rather than pay that much for a CTS.
-Loren
I do hope GM has some emissions patents up their sleeves, so they ain't caught with their pants down on this
----
on a separate note, what do you guys think the MPG would be of the CTS if it didn't have all the safety nonesense on there?
I wonder how many of us would accept the safety tradeoff for the mpg gain? (I know this is a purely academic discussion)
But the wing is a joke. The only M and RSXs you see them on have been bastardized and make the traditionalists cringe. If Pontiact is going to step up to even poor man's BMW status, they've got to tone it down even more.
On the evolutionary styling, it works for BMW and Porche because people love them. There's nothing wrong with family styling but Pontiac has been recycling a design theme since the late 80s that most people don't dig. The solstice is a bit of a departure. They should be building on that.
I think GM, can not only compete but can and will win a comparo from a un-biased source with the 08' CTS, and 08-09' Holden Commodore Grand Prix :shades:
Rocky
Rocky
BMW 335i
length: 180.3"
width: 70.2"
height: 54.2"
wheelbase: 108.7"
curb weight: 3571 lbs
Infiniti G35 ('06)
length: 186.5"
width: 69"
height: 57.7"
wheelbase: 112.2"
curb weight: 3449 lbs
Holden VE Commodore Omega 3.6L
length: 192.7"
width: 74.8"
height: 58.1"
wheelbase: 114.8"
curb weight: 3718 lbs
The Commodore is an inch or so bigger than a 5er all around.
Why does a Grand Prix, have to be a poor mans BMW. Why can't it be the standard or benchmark ? Does a product have to be over-priced like a 3er to be a benchmark ? Just looking at the Commodore's stats it bests the 330i and 335i in about every category.
But the wing is a joke. The only M and RSXs you see them on have been bastardized and make the traditionalists cringe.
This is typical BMW and Acura used car market buyers. seriously !!!
If Pontiact is going to step up to even poor man's BMW status, they've got to tone it down even more.
Well I've seen cladding free bodystyles lately, is that not toned down enough ? If I wanted to drive a camcord styled car I'd buy one, right ?
On the evolutionary styling, it works for BMW and Porche because people love them.
Well they are the only ones that seem to be allowed this free pass for some reason. :confuse: Everybody else better be revolutionary. :surprise: :confuse:
There's nothing wrong with family styling but Pontiac has been recycling a design theme since the late 80s that most people don't dig. The solstice is a bit of a departure. They should be building on that.
Well the sales volume speaks otherwise. Porsche has been doing it since the 60's and it's worked out for them. I agree GM, should go the solstice direction for styling in the near-term.
Rocky
Sketch 2007 GTO
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The Holden Commodore that will be a Grand Prix is the SSV model. I'm not sure if the specs are diferent ? Is the 335i you used a sedan or coupe ? The G35 (07) has grown a few inches also. Otherwise okay......
Rocky
Rocky
-Loren
air bags
the computers to run them
extra reinforced cages
3-4 mpg is pretty significant
am not saying I would take it, but it's a thought
I'd rather go clean diesel and have all the safety gizmos there
it's too bad you can't get a car that has all the luxury of a Caddy, et al, but doesn't have all the safety stuff, so you could get better mpg
"I'm 80 years old, and I don't need a freakin air bag. Why can't someone give me a car with something I NEED in it, like a way to dump my pee bag without having to pull over?"
:-)
Rocky
I think it took more than just a few sales away.
It is evident that it is however not a BMW. I'm OK with that, but not the price. Dump the 2.8 engine and redo the interior, and price it more around $30K, with an automatic. No one buys Cadillacs with a stick.
I think a Cadillac shouldn't be a cheap imitation and be priced at Hyundai levels. That only ruins the marque. If you want a cheap car buy a Hykia
6-speed stick shifts. That is why GM, offered it in the first place to add some sport to the 3.6 "HF" V-6.
You can, but resale may be a killer.
I've found quite the opposite as you.
Now how would a Pontiac, which is more likened to a rental car fare against the BMW? Not a pretty sight. Would it make a nice RWD car at around $20 to $23K -- sure. A $30K Ponti??? Nahhh, too much for the Pontiac image.
Well with this attitude Loren, GM is destined to go under unless you want your cars to be made in Child Labor Sweat Shops in China. :confuse: Then you might get that price.
The $30k to $40 range is more Cadillac. Only the Chevy Corvette comes to mind as a car I would be buying in the luxury price range.
$30-40K is entry-lux level in todays world. 20 yrs ago that might of been true, unless like I said you build cars in slave shops in china. Brickland, Chery, Geely, will be more your flavor.
OK, near luxury. I am old enough to know the days when a dollar meant something. Now it must be pretty worthless. I still consider $30K as a lot of money for an mass produced auto. Considering a $44K Caddy may be more like $25K in less than a couple years, perhaps others don't see these cars as actually worth so much money.
Just like homes in Cali they are way over-priced. Luckily cars haven't went up like homes over the last decade.
The Japan luxury cars seem way over priced to me too. Some entry level ones look to me an awful lot like an Accord or Camry -- why not just pay less and buy those. I don't need navigation systems and all that jazz anyway.
That is why Chery, Brickland, Geely, etc from China will be your best bet to get you a nice Chin-E class of car at those price levels you want. I personally can't picture myself driving those piles ever. I'd rather spend more to drive a car made by people that are given more of a choice in life. I suppose Hykia is made by people that have better living conditions but how is our american buisness's going to compete with them without going over sea's ?
I hope GM, keeps on with its current pricing. I think they are beginning to offer good product for the money one spends FINALLY.
Rocky
The 2007 G35 kicks the crap out of the BMW 330i sedan and they still give the BMW the victory. How :sick: or should I say how biased are these people. So BMW issues a 335i (a 330i w/ a turbo) and now they are parading again. I will tell you that the BMW is bested by the G35, Acura TL Type-S, Lexus IS 350, and soon to be 2008' Caddy CTS. The apologist will rant at how the handling is better even though the stats prove otherwise, then they will say "it feels better" so it deserves to keep its crown.
(This is why I call some of y'all BMW apologists)
It's old and tired like the BMW 3. It's mediocre handling has been met or passed in 2007' but I keep hearing people "cry foul" on size or find some other excuses to not give deserving victory's to Infiniti, Lexus, or Acura.
Cadillac, will get the same treatment in another year from the biased bought and paid for BMW, car analysis. :sick:
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
For instance, the Uplander/Terrazza/Relay minivans are retreads of what is frankly a tired platform, but I'm actually quite impressed with the quality and thoughtful design of the IP's in those vehicles.
The new truck/SUV interiors are impressive as well. After years of tacky plastic, it's encouraging to see some better-quality materials and more thoughtful design.
This gets me thinking I might seriously consider buying my second new Saturn ever next year, when they finally dump the godawful Ion (my apologies to Ion owners, I mean no offense, but the car seems worse every time I sit in it) and bring over the European Astra to replace it. Only thing is, the two failures I had on my first Saturn, now considered to be among the most reliable Saturns ever (mine was a '94 SL2), occurred after 36K miles (and before 50K miles) and would not be covered under a powertrain warranty. And both were disabling, leaving me stranded, which is why I got ticked and dumped the car despite being slightly upside down in the loan. So, I see the new powertrain warranty as a sign from GM of good faith in the product, but I still have some little doubts...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
but I do like the idea of having that accessory built in to the upcoming DC offerings, to power the emissions control system
what do you think about the stylish Saturn Aura ? I love the interior and exterior of this car and can actually see myself drive one someday if I needed a extra car to use for point A to B driving. It's my kind of Camcord.
Rocky
Loren, should be on his 25th Hykia by then.
Rocky
For starters, 'Gadgetology' isn't a big criteria when Road & Track or Car and Driver review cars. And in the last couple years, BMW indeed HAS lost some comparison tests, even before price was factored in. Right now, IMO, their prices and Chris Bangle's horrific 'styling' are hurting them more than anything else. But the competition is getting better as well, no doubt. I also don't think Caddy is going to get a big market share until they lose the equally horrific 'Art & Science' oragami styling.
"The apologist will rant at how the handling is better even though the stats prove otherwise, then they will say "it feels better" so it deserves to keep its crown."
There is a lot more to handling than test numbers can quantify, especially in real-world driving. Things like steering feel, weight distribution and transfer, and the abilty to stay composed when there are bumps in the middle of a turn. And RWD will always be far superior to FWD, as far as enthusiast driving is concerned. There is also a lot more to drivetrains than HP/TQ numbers and 0-60 times (personally I think 0-100 times are more relevant for an enthusiast car). Things like smoothness, how that power is delivered (do you have to rev the piss out of it, ala VTECH or my SVT), clutch takeup and shift linkage, etc. make a biger difference than raw stats, IMHO.
Just for the record, at the moment, I drive an '98 Acura, largely because I got a killer deal from a private owner, after my SVT Contour got smashed up. But I have owned a variety of sports sedans, including an old '83 533i. The steering feel in the BMW was not only light years ahead of anything available at the time, but was better than it is in my '98 Acura.
They also 'borrowed' a few design cues from the Audi A6 & Passat, especially the roofline....
Interesting pictures once again. To me, the Opel looks much better, especially around the rear roof area and rear quarter panel and rear doors. Front is a little neater too. Why do they mess up a good design. The Aura is a pretty nice looking car and is heading in the right direction, but the basic Opel design is a little more exciting and better balanced.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
No not interested in a China car. At the moment would like a sports car, though my aching back may not approve. Narrowing it down to a used Corvette, SLK, or BMW3, or a new Mustang ( not sure how they are screwed together and reliability - still researching and keeping ears open ). I am thinking when the CTS '08 comes out, some will dump their older CTS in favor of the latest thing, and perhaps lower the resale value on the CTS. So far they want too much for what it is.
-Loren
-Loren
Very fast. I think I legitimately scared the salesdroid. He's used to old men driving them and well, yeah - 40mph in 2nd gear launching into traffic like a WRX isn't your typical Caddy.
Horsepower: 400 hp
Torque: 395 lb-ft.(always bugs me a little how they reverse this)
Yeah GM can make very nice cars. Now if we could just get stickshift and RWD in a Buick again.
The reason for my admonition was that, despite previous tongue-in-cheek reminders that GM stood for "General Motors" and not "General Meandering," posts which included personal attacks and provocative arguments surrounding subjects completely unrelated to GM or even automobiles continued to be made.
So I posted the admittedly narrow reminder of the second portion of the title in an attempt to bring a discussion that had run severely off-track back onto center. Now that the subject of this thread has been broadened to include all issues related to the future of GM, we would appreciate your help in keeping things on-track from this point forward.
Thanks!
Eltonron
Host- Automotive News & Views
I think the Aura would look better if they would have used the same wheels that were on the concept car. I just don't like these wheels.
Some car companies are over-doing interiors now. There is a Volvo SUV commercial running now that shows TV's in both front seat headrests. How long will it take for little fingers to ruin those? I think some of them have been watching Pimp my Ride a little too much. :shades:
The Aura also proves my point about interior styling, since it has a very nice interior (that leather is incredible; I want a sofa in that stuff)
Rocky
Rocky
Well they manage to sell a lot of them in spite of their size. If you don't like the 3 then there is always the 5.
It would sure be nice to see a BMW3/Audi A4 sized competitor built by GM. The Solstice (and even more, the Sky), is beautiful IMHO, but still a two-seater. GM has bigger sport type cars, why not a smaller 4 seater of quality and handling?