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That said, GM has a *few* decent engines and yes, the 3800 is one of them. 200K easily. My LeSabre lasted 18 years and my sister's she just sold at 19 years old. Both had this engine and over 200K on them. My mother has a 2000 LeSabre(last incarnation) and it drives perfectly. Rides perfectly. Has over 100K on it. The motor is nearly dead silent running - just like new. 6 years is nothing for this car.
I'd buy a used Buick or Cadillac anyday compared to a cheap... what? Corolla? Civic? There's no way that a Civic is in the same class as a LeSabre/LaCrosse. Way more power, more features, more safety equipment standard, and of course, leather and all the goodies. For half the price a few years old of a new Accord V6(because they don't make a Civic V6).
The thing has traction control, abs, a nice HUD, gheez - it even has *AM* stereo and power everything. What I could get for $12-14K new is a total joke by comparison. And it costs me a lot less to buy used as well. Win-win situation.
All I would do if I bought new is pad the pockets of the bank and the dealership. No thanks.
Do not know where you live in California but average in Anaheim is 2.70
My last GM was 1992, a V6 Cavalier, and it felt pretty loose by 70,000K...I didn't trust it after that although no problems either. Then I had 2 Jeeps which were fine and I got to about 70,000K on first and 50,000 on the 2nd - no problems.
A friend who buys older GM's like you do and drives them until they don't go any more has a theory that at about 80,000 miles lots goes wrong and needs replacing. Once you replace those things you get another 80,000K. So, he buys at about 90,000K real cheap but fully loaded. He has about a 96 Olds now. I do know it is in the garage a fair bit, but he feels he comes out ahead. To me, time in the garage is costing me money and causes my blood pressure to rise and makes me irritable....so I would rather pay more and see my friendly mechanic less.
I do agree that there is an arguement to be made, that if you prefer a larger car and your car is not a necessity, a 2 or 3 year old luxury domestic is a good value. It is sad to say that is the best way to buy a domestic car....and it won't help to save GM.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Probably a whole lot more fun to drive though. ;-) Resale is a big part of the equation and has to be considered. A Park Avenue must be one of the worst dogs for resale. These things have no value after 3 years. Therefore, I agree with you. Look for a low mileage well cared for unit and drive it til it drops. Now you have value. I have an 03 Avalon and we never have liked the less than taut suspension, so I am having some fun seeing what I can do with it. I started by swapping out the front sway bar soft rubber bushings with Energy polyurethane performance bushings for about 12 bucks. The difference was subtle but noticeable. In fact, I thought the struts were gone, but they feel quite good now, so I probably could have passed on the struts, except that when we load the trunk for a trip, I need more control. I notice the difference from the bushings mostly on quickness when turning. Much faster reaction to input for a sportier feel. Of course, if you put put like an old fart in slow motion, you won't notice much. Next comes the rears for 6 bucks. (Try Froogle) I also bought new KYB GR2 heavy duty struts on ebay. List $560. Paid $219. I don't have them installed yet. I have always thought it would be fun to pick up a used Park Ave and do the same thing with it, but my wife wants no part of them - which won't stop me. She can drive one of the other four. I have compromised though since I saw a white Lucerne with chrome wheels. A fine looking automobile, even if it is a Buick. This would make a great project car. I'll wait for a second year car and hopefully they will have the bugs worked out. Three years is a good time to look, as they are coming off lease. Lots hitting the market at the same time makes it beneficial to the buyer. I bought my Lexus LS400 that way. Got a low mileage $50,000 car for $16k. It had less than 50k miles on it and still drives like new. I would rather pay a bit more up front for something that doesn't need to be returning to the shop. I only want to pay once. We usually drive our Japanese stuff 100k miles and I can't remember taking one in for repair. I did have to kluge the choke pull off on our Plymouth Champ and convert it to a manual choke though. I will say that we don't use our cars as work horses, and each time the minimum distance is at least 5 miles, so that makes a difference with proper warm up for the engine and exhaust to get the moisture out. We never need to replace the exhausts either.
If I bought a Park Avenue I would be buying it to enjoy driving; I wouldn't buy based on projected resale value. Do you buy your television based on resale value? Digital camera based on resale value?
Seriously, people have done mods on Bonnevilles such as you describe for your Avalon. And people have done Park Aves on other discussions. While a ride like that would turn me off, I understand some people feel that if you can't feel the pebble in the road, things aren't right. grin.
I like mine smooth and comfortable--but controlled. My 98 leSabre has Monroe road-sensing struts. My 03 has the tighter, relatively, leSabre suspension with 16 inch wheels and I'm happy for now.
As for Civic being more fun to drive, that's subjective. I test drove an 03 Accord and it wasn't fun to drive. It was torture.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's exactly the sort of deal I was talking about.
If I bought a Park Avenue I would be buying it to enjoy driving; I wouldn't buy based on projected resale value. Do you buy your television based on resale value? Digital camera based on resale value?
No, you buy used with cars. With only one exception. You buy something you plan to keep forever as a future classic. Like a Lotus Elise that you still have 30 years from now. If it's not a "forever" car, then at some point it gets sold and depreciation IS a factor.
You want the other guy to eat enough depreciation so that you don't have to. Buy used and keep for a few years, then buy used again. Way less money changes hands this way. Marketing departments, well, they EXIST to get you to buy new. Don't believe their nonsense.
ie:
New car after five years. Was 40K new, now is 16K. 24K loss.
Used car after five years. 16K when you bought it. Sold for 4K ten years old. 12K loss.
Thats like taking roughly $1 an hour out of your paycheck and burning it if you buy new. Over a lifetime, that's hundreds of thousands of dollars. Say, 50 years driving, 20 cars on average for a typical household(2 drivers plus kids and so on).
With two cars, that's $2 an hour you're throwing away.
The only real trick is to get a car that will last ten years/120-150K reliably. That's, honestly, almost everything made today. Certainly anything that sold for 30K or more when it was new.
As far as extended warranties are concerned, I bought one from CoverageOne by AC Delco that is good for another 4 years or 100k miles for only $1137. I feel that is a good deal. A dealer would have marked it up to $2k
I have a feeling that my new-car buying days are over. I don't regret buying my Intrepid, but after seeing just how fast cars depreciate, and then a few years later helping my Dad buy an '03 Regal LS with 19K miles on it, at the end of '03, for about $12,800 out the door, certainly opened my eyes.
Now if I were going with a Japanese brand, I'd probably buy brand-new. For instance, the two cars that are highest on my list right now, if I were to buy, are the Altima and the Charger. With the Altima I'd go new, but with the Charger I've been seeing some good deals on used ones with low miles.
Every once in awhile I'll search Autobytel and other sources for late model Park Avenues, like 2004-05. Or maybe I'll start checking out the Lucernes when they start hitting the used car lots.
I had an '87 with the 3.8 engine, and nothing but problems. Same went for the tranny - dead at 62K. The '92 Olds I had was a bit better, once the eight or so trips to the service dept. when new were complete. Then it ran pretty good. Started to take on water around the drivers side and was getting a bit old around the four or fifth year, so I traded it in on a Corolla. Night and day for quality, the '98 Corolla was excellent. You ask how long since a decent GM car was parked in the driveway? Well the '76 was a Starfire, so it was more in the loser class - but I still had fun with the dog. I would say Dad's '72 Cutlass was pretty good. So that is the last of the great ones. He had an '84 station wagon, and is still running. He sold it to a friend back in 1990. At 140HP for a 5.0 V8 is was a bow-wow for power, and was a much fun to drive as a bus. He loved the Camry 1991, and his newer 2000. Once he bought a Japan make, he got hooked. The steering, feel, gas mileage, and well let's say most everything was an upgrade for him.
You actually have to own, drive and live with both types of cars to understand the differences. Now a Cadillac CTS may be in a who different level. There are a couple of newer great GM cars. The rest are just transportation, like riding the bus.
-Loren
I wonder what kind of a bargain a V8 Lucerne will be in 24-36 months.
This link is not up to date all the time. I bought at 5 cents less than the cheapest price listed in my zip code.
Hyndai's warranty is better because if your like the average American driving under 15K a year, you won't top out at 100K for almost 7 years. So how is GM's warranty comparable to Hyundai's? It just isn't!
For $8,000 more you could buy it new, get those original 50,000 miles which is like another 3 or 4 years worth of driving (the best years by the way) so those years might cost you $2000 to $2800 a year, and no extra warranty to buy, 100,000 miles and 5 years of trouble free driving. It might cost you $10 (cut down on the Starbucks)a week more for a new one than a used one and you won't have to wait for two years (you might need a new car today)!
You also get the color of your choice and that new car feeling. You know exactly what oil and maintenance is getting done to it as well.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Heck, $20K might actually make me break my vow not to buy another car until 2008!
-Loren
A guy I used to know a couple years ago looked at Park Avenues and he said they were stickered at 32K I think. Thats ridiculous a Buick for 32K. Buick doesn't have the "prestige" to command a 32K price tag in my opinion. Caddy has the prestige to command that kind of price but Buick. No way. I;m sure there were a lot of rebates on the Park avenue at that time though(this was a couple years ago.) I have heard the Lucrene is priced at 30K. The Lucrene has some lines but 30K is alot to shell out for a Buick in my opinion. I don;t even care about resale value but 30K for a Buick?
"As for Civic being more fun to drive, that's subjective. I test drove an 03 Accord and it wasn't fun to drive. It was torture."
The Accord was less to fun to drive than a Buick: hmm. I never drove an Accord but I have an 02 Acura CL and I like it.
But GM's is better than anyone elses.
Good news. Hope the good interiors continue from GM. SUV's also had good kudos for their interiors.
I owned a Corolla which of better quality than my '87 Olds. Would say the Olds. may be a little more comfortable, and was not blown about on the roads on windy days. But the interior quality, the paint, finish and reliability was no comparison at all -- the Corolla was an easy winner. Handling on my Olds luxo machine was not bad. I would say it was pretty close to a 2000 model year Camry. Of course the cost was around $18K with a retail around $20K back in 1986-87, so it was not much of a buy. Cars seem to more fairly priced these days. That is, if you are still working and getting a good salary, cars are less than the old days. Seems like between 1973 and late 80's, things got out-of-hand for car prices. Now I could buy a car, better equipped than the Olds98 Regency, with electronic stability control and all that jazz for under $20K, with some 233HP, instead of 150HP. That car is the Sonata V6. Not looking, at the moment, for another FWD car though. If I was, some hot deals now-a-days. And if wanted something boring, I read the paper the other day, a saw the Malibu rental returns priced at $12,999. That's what, $7K in the first year?
I remember freaking out back in 1993 when the Intrepid came out, even back then the pricey versions of it were MSRP'ing for $25K. I was thinking "$25K for a DODGE?!" Honestly, I think the $25-40K range is where Buick SHOULD be competing, if they want to maintain their traditional status as an upper-medium priced car (which in today's standards roughly translates to "near luxury") But cars like the Park Ave just didn't have a $40,000 feel to them. Honestly though, I doubt I'd pay $40K for ANY car, no matter how nice it is. Unless it's so far into the future that inflation whittles $40K down to about what $20-25K is today!
-Loren
Funny thing is, back then, a LeSabre really wasn't an expensive car. According to my old car book, a 4-door '61 LeSabre base priced at $3107. In contrast, a Chevy Impala, if ordered with the base V-8, was $2697. So the Buick came at about a $400 premium. In contrast, the cheapest 4-door Cadillac was around $5080.
But the important thing is, back then the Buick name had a lot of brand equity and prestige. So even though they weren't expensive cars, they still had a strong following and people were proud to own them. At that point too, a LeSabre was still a step up, engine-wise, from a Chevy. The base V-8 Chevy was a 283 with a tame 170 hp. The LeSabre had a 364 with 230 hp. That's actually quite tame for something that big. For example, the Mopar 361 put out 265 hp with a 2-bbl carb, and it was considered a wuss compared to the 295 hp 1960 version. But the Buick engine was still plenty torquey.
Nowadays, a Buick still isn't that much more than a Chevy. But the name for the most part just doesn't have the equity that it once did. These days, a step up in prestige just isn't enough. Seems like it needs to be a big leap.
The VUE Hybrid actually only weighs 3474 pounds. The 4718 is gross vehicle weight rating. Basically the weight of the vehicle + the maximum amount of weight you can load into it.
I disagree and don't see that as typical middle class. I see most middle class families buying Impalas, Altimas,and Accords. The American brands do have a slight advantage by offering rebates. I thinks GM's new 100k mile powertrain warranty will boost their sales. I also think that the European brands are also getting slammed by the Japanese. I have seen some of the entry level Bimmers with low resale. The Japanese dealership network is beginning to be more common. But if you live in a rural area, trying to find a mechanic to work on a European car is an inconvenience.
I don;t think the Europeans are getting slammed by the Japanese. Mecredes, BMW and VW US sales are up from last year as are Audi sales I think. Whats shocking to me is BMW sales were down by 3000 units last month when compared to August 05 sales. Maybe BMW didn't have alot of inventory of 06 models to clear out thus that may have led to a weak August. Its just weird to me usually BMW during the past few years(I have kept an eye on US auto sales since 2001)has always recorded a month over month increase.
If you want to say the Europeans are getting slammed by Japanese on the reliability end thats 100% true.
"I have seen some of the entry level Bimmers with low resale."
What like a strip model 3 Series or something?
I almost got a leftover white 2005 LeSabre last November, but didn't want another car payment for what was essentially going to be my "beater car."
European cars are prime candidates to buy slightly used, the depreciation hit can be massive, especially when a bodystyle changes on an expensive line. S-class and 7ers always sink like a stone when a new model comes out.
It works great. Drove it on the highway and it was imperceptable when it went from 4 to 8 cylinders. It went inot 4 cylinders on level ground and downhill. (expressway driving)
No idea how it helped the mileage though.
I think Volvos do fare worse...I've seen S60s down around 10K and S80s even less (but of course they are getting old).
Does 20 cents more per gallon really impact people so much? Seems to be maybe several dollars per week.
You can get one used for pretty close to $20,000. Some are $32,000 or more, don't know why that much difference!
- Auto
Luxury Cars at this dealership
33 mi. 15,190 mi. $22,995
2006 Lucerne CXL V6 Gold
- Auto
Luxury Cars at this dealership
33 mi. 14,347 mi. $23,995
2006 Lucerne CXL V6 Crimson Pearl
4 Doors - Auto
Luxury Cars at this dealership
69 mi. 1,201 mi. $31,750
2006 Lucerne CXL V6 Black Onyx
4 Doors - Auto
Luxury Cars at this dealership
69 mi. 3,215 mi. $32,600
2006 Lucerne CX Frost White
6 Cylinders - 4 Doors - Auto
Luxury Cars at this dealership
88 mi. 7,826 mi. $19,995
2006 Lucerne CXL V6 Blue
6 Cylinders - 4 Doors - Auto
Luxury Cars at this dealership
87 mi. 0 mi. $24,995
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The Tahoe will still be more expensive to run. A lot of the luxury cars that use premium fuel which is maybe 10% more to buy also get at least that much better gas mileage. Gas in Britain is almost $8 a gallon so they have to be fairly sensible about mileage.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
BMW ranks highest in resale value, 54% after 4 years. Mercedes is not much less. They are way up there, GM is about 35 - 40% after 4 years and Ford closer to 30%.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I saw a CTS in a neighbor's drive with neat chrome wheels. It had a CV emblem on the left if I could see correctly from the road.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Today I saw a DTS, pearl white with a shell grey vinyl top...blingy wheels, and white/yellow tires. It was the previous generation though. This image needs to be abandoned and worked against as much as possible.
What happened to the Grand Prix? Thought they were fairly good selling cars for Pontiac. No redo? No advertising? None on the lots?
-Loren
I don't think it makes a big difference when it comes down to the dollar. But it's just the thought of paying a premium price for something that is going to burn up into the atmosphere. It's like going to the station that has the lowest price per gallon. You're not really saving much, but you know you're getting the most bang for your buck. Then again, maybe I'm just cheap.
As far as the Tahoe, it's a family member who bought it. I wouldn't buy one myself, but it is interesting how that fuel saving technology works.