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General Motors discussions

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  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    I honestly don't know if the current Honda engines are interference designs or not.

    Here's some fun reading for you:

    http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/us70343.htm

    I've got NO idea on the MB engines. You might want to ask Merc.....
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    And all those wonderful foreign-owned plants are being built with subsidy, even total forgiveness, of local taxes. Perhaps even state taxes. Just because they want them to build "here." So political divisions are lowered to bidding wars of how much they can give the company to come to their community.

    And you don't think they would also make those same concessions to GM and Ford to build new plants and provide jobs in their communities? Of course they would.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Thanks for the link. They may use a chain on the SLK. I'll ask them.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Hmmm. I don't think an extra 20 foot-pounds is a good trade for losing 500 rpm of performance. The shapes of the curves are the same, so put in a shorter final gear to compensate and a taller high gear to maintain the cruising mileage.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    And all those wonderful foreign-owned plants are being built with subsidy, even total forgiveness, of local taxes. Perhaps even state taxes. Just because they want them to build "here." So political divisions are lowered to bidding wars of how much they can give the company to come to their community.

    In Europe, they make international bidding for those plants. When Nissan wanted to build a new plant a few years ago, the British government made concessions, else that plant would go to France. I remember one minus of being in Britain was that plant would deal in the British pound, and the cars from that plant would sell in the continent in euros. The Eastern Europeans (Hungary, Poland, etc.) would compete like crazy for foreign owned plants. You don't think they ever consider giving tax breaks?

    There are many provinces in China, all competing for foreign plants. They'd deal like crazy trying to outbid one another.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I'm not sure if any manufacturers have used timing chains on OHC engines, I have never heard of it :confuse: .

    I've owned several OHC engines that have had timing chains. I have had several 4cyl OHC engines that used belts, but most of my v6 OHC engines were chains (Fords and Nissans). The timing belts required a change at 60k and and a few would go 100k miles. I've only had one timing belt fail, and that was due to a water pump failure on an '86 Escort I had in HS.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    "I blame our governments incompetence for basically forcing the big 3 out of this country because they refuse to tariff foreign makes like they do the big 3 exports"

    I assume you mean other countries are tarrifing big three products. I have often wondered why all the politics. Why not just say to them, Hey, that's a great idea. We'll adopt that and apply it right back on your products. Too simplistic, I suppose.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    As we have pointed out here numerous times, GM's executive pay is very low for a company of its size in the United States.

    AS IT SHOULD BE, BASED ON RESULTS.

    GM's management, far from being the do nothings you like to portray them as, are finally finding ways to leverage GM's global legacy.

    The key word here is
    finally What have been doing for the last 20 years? Picking their noses and wringing their hands. They obviously had no clue.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    The transplants are starting from nothing in the US. They have to build plants here to compete.

    They came here, bought land, and pretty much started their plants from scratch. It least the Big 3 own valuable land. They do have demo costs to build new, but should have some advantage here.
  • 5539655396 Member Posts: 529
    And all those wonderful foreign-owned plants are being built with subsidy, even total forgiveness, of local taxes.

    For how long? After that, there are jobs and a tax base. It's the price to be paid for your long term economy.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Regarding tariffs on American made autos:

    Can someone point me to site which lays out just WHAT countries have tariffs on American autos and what these tariffs consist of? Because I keep seeing references to tariffs on Big 3 products but NO discussion of what these tariffs are......
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I'd honestly like to know how much GM design/engineering effort went into the Aveo...

    Not much. Forgot about the Echo, wonder why. Thought the Tercel was larger?
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    the GM/Nissan/Renault deal is off again. Ghosn is going to concentrate on a similar deal with Ford for the time being.

    http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/061004/autos_renault_nissan.html?.v=7

    Who knows....maybe it will all come to life again with GM if Nissan/Renault can't get anywhere with Ford.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Actually, I think the Tercel was smaller than the Echo (the Echo certainly looks taller than the old Tercel; not sure about the footprint).

    I think that what soured me on the Aveo (unjustly so, I'll admit), is GM's decision to drop the "Le Mans" moniker on the earlier Daewoo subcompact sold by Pontiac. After that debacle, I wrote off GM and their efforts in the subcompact arena.

    Yes, it was unjust. Just trying to be honest but ever since then, I just haven't been able to take anything from Daewoo seriously......
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I'd like to know why GM would be adverse to making/saving money. Does it really matter who makes more? That seems silly to me

    Issue is that there is no or little possible money "saved" by working with Nissan/Renault. Asked many times here in this forum with no good answer other than Ghosn being the grand master fo GM. Would probably hire him away a lot cheaper.

    Waht does Nissan offer that none of the experts can figure out?
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    I had exactly the opposite reaction: I was appalled and dismayed when GM decided to slap the revered LeMans name on a Korean-built Daewoo!!! :mad: I'm surprised they didn't call the Aveo a Tempest or a Chevelle!!! :P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Echo is 3" longer, 5" higher and about the same width as the Tercel. Tercel had the same wheelbase.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    The key word here is finally What have been doing for the last 20 years? Picking their noses and wringing their hands. They obviously had no clue.

    The flaw in your argument is that Lutz has only been aboard less than 5 years - almost of which time he has spent making the various pieces more cohesive.

    Wagoner has been aboard about 8 years.

    The CFO only about one year.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    General Motors, Renault and Nissan said today that they had agreed to terminate discussions regarding a proposed alliance among the three companies.

    The parties mutually recognized that significant aggregate synergies might result from the alliance. However the parties did not agree on either the total amount of aggregate synergies or the distribution of those benefits.

    Based on its conclusions, GM had proposed that Renault-Nissan provide compensation as part of a potential alliance and for potentially precluding GM from entering other alliance opportunities if Renault-Nissan had made a significant investment in GM.

    Renault and Nissan consider that the principle of compensation is contrary to the spirit of any successful alliance
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    General Motors, Renault and Nissan said today that they had agreed to terminate discussions regarding a proposed alliance among the three companies.

    The parties mutually recognized that significant aggregate synergies might result from the alliance. However the parties did not agree on either the total amount of aggregate synergies or the distribution of those benefits.

    Based on its conclusions, GM had proposed that Renault-Nissan provide compensation as part of a potential alliance and for potentially precluding GM from entering other alliance opportunities if Renault-Nissan had made a significant investment in GM.

    Renault and Nissan consider that the principle of compensation is contrary to the spirit of any successful alliance
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    Man... things have been busy here today. I can't catch up on all this so let me jump in with:

    Logic, whatever you're up to is wrong. The CTS blah blah blah..... 2010 whatever blah blah blah =P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    General Motors reported better sales of trucks sold to individual customers than a year ago. Ford Motor said it moved more F-Series pickups and Explorer and Expedition SUVs. And DaimlerChrysler noted gains for its minivans and Jeep Commander SUVs.

    Toyota and Honda too, saw strong truck demand. Even sales of GM's hulking Hummers rose 16 percent.

    But automakers also were quick to caution that the truck resurgence could be short-lived. "Consumers haven't done a 180," said Ford sales analyst George Pipas. The turnaround "is not likely sustainable."
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    With all the bad news coming out of Detroit in recent years, here's one bright star in an otherwise dark sky: South Korea.

    Since General Motors bought the Korean automaker Daewoo (the name means "great universe") out of bankruptcy four years ago for $1.2 billion, it has embarked upon an incredible transformation. Today GM-Daewoo is actually making money. It helped generate $831 million in profits for GM Asia-Pacific, on sales of $8 billion in the first half of this year, up from a net loss of $535 million on $3.6 billion sales for the same period last year.

    The division has quadrupled production and sales of the small cars it makes to 1.6 million this year, and it has won, within GM, the exclusive right to develop all next-generation subcompact cars for the entire world–one, currently on sale in the U.S., is the Chevy Aveo–drawing a $3.2 billion investment from headquarters in upgrades, R&D, and new plants.

    Daewoo's success has allowed GM to enter the subcompact market in 150 countries where it previously had no product to offer, boosting sales in Latin America, Asia, and Europe, where appetites for small cars are high. And Daewoo's platform used in small Chevys and Buicks has helped propel GM into the No. 1 market position in China.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I was appalled and dismayed when GM decided to slap the revered LeMans name on a Korean-built Daewoo!!!"

    I guess I wasn't very clear - that was my reaction as well. That car was such a POS (and also an abomination to the Lemans name) that I haven't been able to take a Daewoo, or any GM subcompact, seriously since.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...the Daewoo LeMons? Well, Isuzu gave GM an abomination called the Chevrolet Spectrum.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Why is that whenever I see language like "significant aggregate synergies" my eyes glaze over?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    how about the Ford talks? Will Ford and R-N form an alliance?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    I guess I wasn't very clear - that was my reaction as well. That car was such a POS (and also an abomination to the Lemans name) that I haven't been able to take a Daewoo, or any GM subcompact, seriously since.

    Okay, that's BETTER!!! LOL :)

    On the subject of names.... what's with these nonsense, computer-generated names, i.e. Aveo, Alero, Murano, Azera, Optima, Altima, Sentra, Aerio, Forenza, etc. etc. etc.... The Japanese are just as guilty as us, if not more. But I guess that's because we have the old names (Impala, Mustang, Charger, etc.) to fall back on, where Japanese names might translate kind of wierd. :)
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "...an abomination called the Chevrolet Spectrum."

    The cynic in me says that the Chevy Speculum is what happens when a car company has the attitude that a subcompact car is, by definition, a penalty box......and then they shop around on the worldwide market for a car they can sell that meets that description.

    The LeMons and Speculum were evidence (IMO) that GM management absolutely HATED subcompacts.

    The unintended consequence of course was that millions of first-time buyers were either completely soured on GM due to these rolling dungheaps, or that first-time buyers simply avoided GM and bought competent subcompacts from their competition.....
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    well, i could think of a million things GM could learn from Nissan, but nothing they couldn't learn from other companies or just by opening their eyes and using common sense.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    The cynic in me says that the Chevy Speculum is what happens when a car company has the attitude that a subcompact car is, by definition, a penalty box......and then they shop around on the worldwide market for a car they can sell that meets that description.

    The LeMons and Speculum were evidence (IMO) that GM management absolutely HATED subcompacts.

    The unintended consequence of course was that millions of first-time buyers were either completely soured on GM due to these rolling dungheaps, or that first-time buyers simply avoided GM and bought competent subcompacts from their competition.....


    Indeed, the Big 3 never have done very well with sub-compacts, even going back 30 years.... Look at the Chevette, Pinto, Vega, etc. I don't even think Chrysler even tried, did they? Oh yeah, the Omni... another POS.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    Murano is a Venetian resort island. I guess that the name implies urban sophistication.
  • atlvibeatlvibe Member Posts: 109
    Think of all the compact car nameplates GM has gone thru in the last 30 years. Take for example, Chevrolet... Monza, Vega, Nova(80's), Citation, Spectrum, Aveo, Prizm, Sprint, Storm, Chevette, Metro, Colbalt, Cavalier. Other GM divisions had derivatives of these products also. If we look at Honda and Toyota. Two basic compact car nameplates have stayed in place for the same period. Civic and Corolla.This longevity has given them built in credibility that GM lacks in the compact car market. Granted, Toyota and Honda have had other models. However, IMO, the lack of staying power of one long term nameplate hurt GM in the marketplace.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Murano sounds like a salve or ointment to me. Probably for proctological use.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    Think of all the compact car nameplates GM has gone thru in the last 30 years. Take for example, Chevrolet... Monza, Vega, Nova(80's), Citation, Spectrum, Aveo, Prizm, Sprint, Storm, Chevette, Metro, Colbalt, Cavalier. Other GM divisions had derivatives of these products also. If we look at Honda and Toyota. Two basic compact car nameplates have stayed in place for the same period. Civic and Corolla

    That's because the name was quickly associated with [non-permissible content removed]. So a new name was needed every year or two, to make a "fresh start"...
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    Murano sounds like a salve or ointment to me. Probably for proctological use.

    ROTFLMFAO!!! :surprise:
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    escambiaguy wrote: "I'm not sure if any manufacturers have used timing chains on OHC engines, I have never heard of it."

    To name a few that have used timing chains on OHC engines: Audi, Aston-Martin, BMW, Ferrari, Ford, Jaguar (the old 3.8L and 4.8L DOHC I-6 of the '50s and '60s, as well as others later), Lamborghini, Maserati, Mercedes, Nissan, Rover, SAAB, and Triumph (Dolomite, and the basis for the original 1.8L SOHC SAAB engine). Many others, especially some old domestics such as Duesenberg, et. al.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    And then there was the Beretta. My o' my, the maker of fine firearms, Beretta, was not amused by that. Wonder how that lawsuit went. Now we have the Lucerne, which we all know and love as dairy products from Safeway, appearing on a car rather than a carton of milk. Wonder what the expiration date is on the car?
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Murano is one of the few interesting SUVs on the market. GM should be so lucky to have something interesting to look at in the SUV sector.
    Pretty good name. Better than Tribecca. Poor ol' car with the funny looking front. Did Subaru borrow from the Aztec designers sketches for the next great look? The next great ugly car?
    -Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    i could think of a million things GM could learn from Nissan

    Start listing them!
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    How would you sell say a Cobalt in Japan? Better than what they already have there - I think not. They want to by a Malibu? Why would they? Now, a Corvette or Cadillac perhaps, make sense. Has to be a need to fill first before we talk tariffs. If they screw us over on tariffs of car we could sell over there, we then, you are so right, let's reciprocate.
    -Loren
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    How about how to leverage one really great V-6 engine to generate class-topping sales across several models? GM uses up a ton of resources having a zillion different engines in a vain attempt to differentiate between all its overlapping models.

    One or two great 4-cylinders, one great V-6, one great V-8 (and a second, supersized for large trucks), and a whole lot of brand overlap reduction is what is called for. Something else it could learn from Nissan - reducing brand overlap and increasing platform sharing - Nisssan has what, two or three platforms it uses for all its models, a full line?

    Right there you've saved GM billions and billions of dollars in the next five to ten years. And we've just begun.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "If they screw us over on tariffs...."

    I'm still trying to figure out.....WHAT tariffs? Which countries? What form do these tariffs take?
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I rented a 2006 Murano during a trip to the East coast a few weeks ago. Put around 800 miles on it over 4 days. The CVT transmission was very nice, and quite interesting to use as it was my first experience with a CVT. Overall, the experience was very good.

    On the Daewoo LeMans . . . back in October 1989 I came "seriously close" to buying one of those for my wife. It was between it and a base Honda Civic hatch 4-speed manual. I bought the Honda, and am I glad that I did. I remember what one of GM's VP's said after they landed the remainder of the LeMans on the dock from the ship: "We finally accepted delivery of the last of these "pieces of crap"." This was written up in all major auto magazines at the time, and I was really surprised he used those words. At least he was honest . . . it was not a good car. Nor have many of the later Daewoo's been very good, such as the Nubira. Other than renting an Aveo on a business trip in January 2005, I have no experience with it. Hopefully, it will have a better track record than previous Daewoo products.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Just go to ford.com, search dealer inventory, type in 43215 (zip for Columbus, Ohio), and click on Ricart Ford to see pricing details on remaining '06 GTs. Ford's current rebate (good through 1/2/07) is $1500 plus $1000 bonus cash on automatics for a total rebate $2500. Actually, the ad gave the MSRP ($34,355) less rebate and discount for a offered purchase price of $28,355. Suggest that if you think you can make money on it, give 'em a call and buy it.

    By way of contrast, I bought my '06 GT convertible a month ago. MSRP was $35,030 and I paid $32,530 ($2500 dealer discount) and took Ford's zero percent 72 month financing. The mark-up on it was about $3000 so the selling dealer got about $500 of that and the holdback so he did fine.

    Sorry to have to be the one to tell you that supply has finally caught up with demand.
  • jpfjpf Member Posts: 496
    GM has a big problem with most of their car nameplates. I find it interesting when Consumers Reports asks its members a simple question, "Would you buy the car again?" On the one hand, Honda and Toyota nameplates score 80% to 90% "Yes". On the other hand, GM scores only about 50% "Yes". After several model years, the nameplate acquires a bad reputation that few people want to buy that nameplate.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I assume that " 55396 " poster was referring to Japan or Germany. Was just saying " IF " they do, we sure could as well use a tariff. But the demand for a car has to be there first to actually sell the thing.
    -Loren
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    "...Ford for its part rebuilt the whole Torrence Avenue complex on the South Side of Chicago..."

    Not really. The area around the plant is now a supplier park, to help support the new product being built at the plant. Which is a good idea as that land was just there; though there are areas near there that are straight, flat and two lanes, perfect for...let's just say, "spirited driving".

    Ford didn't rebuild the facility, they have added on here and there, retooled it for the new product. Nor did it foot the entire bill for the supplier park - the suppliers did.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    $32,500 for a Mustang? That was the discount price? Ouch!
    End of year close-out of $28,355? I think Ford has gone a bit over the edge on pricing. And it still has no roll bar = not good.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    I agree m1 - that's somewhat pricy :surprise:

    And was this an "everything but the kitchen sink" model?
This discussion has been closed.