Amen on the plastic wood. I love when people critique one company's vehicle interiors as fake wood and other company's interior are wonderful with soft plastic, great appearance, tactilly-fulfilling, etc. And most can't tell the difference in woods. Do they think they can discern quality, longevity, and durability in plastics as well?
50/50? So, what profit would convince us that GM is back from the brink? Would $500,000 do it? 1 billion? 2? Just what profit would it take for outsiders to believe GM is on the right track?
The media is just now catching up to where GM is going. I find they are about 6 months behind the ball. 6 months ago it was all gloom and doom. There was little future for GM. They could not see a way out for them. Now some, such as the WSJ are talking about GM's plan and how there is no need for an alliance. Why could they not see this 6 months ago? GM has not hidden what they are doing. They are continueing to do what they said they had to do. They have been showing the great future products for a year. I mean almost all the cars in this article were shown to the press last year. They have concessions from the union in health care. etc. etc.
Really? When I take my Cadillac Seville in for service, it's been extremely easy to get warranty work done. I wasn't even aware there was something wrong with the car, and they fixed the problem under warranty.
Motors and transmissions fail? Geeze, I've never had a motor or transmission fail in a GM car. They're usually the last thing to go. Now, Ford on the other hand...
ut the Japanese car never needs to be towed, and thus no problem
They ALL do, at some time or another. If you have a car and go 10 years without, you're doing pretty good! It's just that some need towed more than others...
Daewoo cars don't have a very good track record (just look at the LeMans!).
Geeze, the LeMans was made over 20 years ago. Look at the Excel. Hyundai wasn't so hot back then but look at 'em now - challenging the Camry. If they only wouldn't copy old Japanese styling and go back to their own unique look.
There are some fake woods that are quite good (the faux wood in my Acura is very good), but all it takes is a simple tap on it, and you know it's plastic. But some are obviously fake, and you can tell just by looking. The stuff Ford used to use is a good example. And yes, there are differences in plastics. Look at the materials in the center console of a Lexus versus a Monte Carlo, for example. BIG difference. It also helps to trim off the casting flash!
Daewoo cars don't have a very good track record (just look at the LeMans!).
Geeze, the LeMans was made over 20 years ago. Look at the Excel. Hyundai wasn't so hot back then but look at 'em now - challenging the Camry.
Hyundai is not a Daewoo. Is a Cadillac the same as a Ford just because they're from the same country? (provided they're not made in Mexico or somewhere...)
I still can't understand that. What I'm referring to is the use of fake wood or any other "faux" material. For god sakes spend a few more bucks and get the real stuff, right ?
You'd have to be an idiot to not beable to tell the difference pal. One, touch of the finger or knock if you can't tell. I can look at any car and tell the difference.
Rocky
P.S.
IMHO the old Audi A200's had the best car interior design of any car ever made under 100K. Real leather on the dash, real wood and recaro seats. My best friends parents had a A200 Quattro and boy it was very comfy.
The problem for Toyota is that Sequoia production takes up a big chunk of its Princeton, Ind., factory, where Tundras also are made. But Toyota is preparing its San Antonio Tundra-only plant, anticipating more volume. If demand for the new Tundra falls short, the Sequoia must pick up the slack in Princeton.
Hmmm... Toyotas are made in Texas and Indiana, and Chevy's and Buicks are made in Mexico... Which ones are American cars again?
Audi's have some of the best interiors in the business, regardless of price. The domestics would do well to mimic their interiors (they already do copy Audi's exterior styling quite a bit).
BTW - I wonder how one would go about compiling a list of current cars with REAL wood trim? I think some folks in here would be surprised..... :surprise:
Well Audi use too. I'm not liking much from them as of late. The new A8 is nice, like the ones from the past. I think it's the A6 that dislike so much. It's ugly IMHO like Bimmers. The 2007 Volvo S80 arguably has the best interior design in the world !!!!
...I was in a 2003 Honda Accord and asked the owner if he had an aftermarket wood kit installed because it looked so good. A coworker of mine has a dark blue 2004 Accord and it is trimmed in aluminum. The man, whose car was a light gold color, told me that Honda used faux wood trim in lighter colored cars and that dark-colored ones used aluminum.
That is a very good question and perhaps someone can answer it (not me). I would start by probably saying RollsRoyce, Bentley,Lambo, Aston Martin and several of the REAL HIGH END Priced Vehicles all have wood type. I would assume almost "ALL"midsize and compact and subcompact all have plastic???? Even Cadillac, Lincoln and Lexus???probably all use plastic???
Well that is true, but not many parts are made in Canada. they mainly are assembly when it comes to auto-industry. Your main suppliers are U.S. plants- Johnson Controls, Delphi, Gentex, Dana, American Axel, Lear, etc. The Mexican content isn't included in domesic content.
The "LUX" segments?? I agree...but probably only the high priced LUX segment...but what about all the other segments? I can't think of any...if you can...please enlighten me!
Volvo S80, S60, XC90, use real wood, Acura RL/MDX has real wood. All Cadillac's, Denali GMC units. I'm not sure on Lincoln units. BMW, uses real wood also. Lexus does also. So does Volkswagon on the Passatt, Audi, Mercedes, etc
"Well that is true, but not many parts are made in Canada."
Well, we really don't KNOW that, do we? Since, by definition, "Domestic" includes labor AND parts from Canada, average Joe-carbuyer, looking at the %-content label can't REALLY tell how much of the car is Canadian sourced.
BTW - if Mexican autoworkers were unionized like the UAW and the CAW, would it be fair for Mexican sourced labor to be included as 'domestic' on the labels?
If it is real wood, why not SAY "real wood". Why 'real wood GRAIN'?
Just for the sake of argument, if a manufacturer made plastic trim parts which were IMPRINTED with a real wood (to get the correct 'grain' look), couldn't they legally say it had a 'real wood GRAIN'?
Well, we really don't KNOW that, do we? Since, by definition, "Domestic" includes labor AND parts from Canada, average Joe-carbuyer, looking at the %-content label can't REALLY tell how much of the car is Canadian sourced.
Well working in the industry about 6 years ago I do know there isn't many parts plants in Canada. True Joe six-pack wouldn't know.
BTW - if Mexican autoworkers were unionized like the UAW and the CAW, would it be fair for Mexican sourced labor to be included as 'domestic' on the labels?
Perhaps, but we won't see that haapen anytime soon. The Mexicans, have tried to form unions with no government help. It's ashame because it would help U.S. workers out if they were. At some point we will have the "Amero" currency and then it might happen. The United States of Canada and Mexico, might not be out of the question in 10 or 20 years with some politicians in this country's desire to form one currency.
It's a natural resource made out of mostly carbon, and grows naturally in forest area's. :P
If it is real wood, why not SAY "real wood". Why 'real wood GRAIN'?
Good question ?
Just for the sake of argument, if a manufacturer made plastic trim parts which were IMPRINTED with a real wood (to get the correct 'grain' look), couldn't they legally say it had a 'real wood GRAIN'?
I wouldn't think so, but that also is a very good question.
"Perhaps, but we won't see that haapen anytime soon."
I don't think it'll happen either, which is why I stressed the "IF" part of my question. I was just trying to determine WHAT was more important to you - the country of origin or whether the labor was unionized. And I think I have my answer....
Well you think you have your answer, but it would take me a very long time to explain it and why. This isn't the right forum for such an explanation pal.
is getting a minivan? That's a really stupid idea. But I thought GM was getting out of the minivan business, just like Ford is?
And as for Pontiac, their minivan has already died a much deserved death. It will probably take them a year to clear out the most uninspiring 2006s though. Unless they can unload them all in the rental fleets, which is the only place I have ever seen the Montana SV6. Dealers refused to even stock them.
Isn't the GMC brand a farce for people who want to feel more manly? Not sure who they're fooling...
I guess in some parts of the country they also convey an image of wealth, but around here, people do that with luxury cars that actually take significant wealth to afford. Locally, the Range Rover is the main tool employed for this task on the truck/SUV side.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"This isn't the right forum for such an explanation pal."
Fair enough.
But I can give you a SHORT explanation regarding why I THINK I have the answer.
Candian sourced labor was deemed 'Domestic' because, when the Congress was drafting the laws leading to the Monroney (sp?) labels, the Big 3 were using a lot of Canadian labor. They wanted to include anything they could to help 'pump up' the % of 'domestic' contents to help differentiate themselves from the 'imports'.
Many in here have justified that (and continued to justify it) on the basis that the Candian labor is Unionized in the CAW (originally part of the UAW).
In other words country of origin (Canada = NOT in the US) was deemed to be less important than whether or not the labor was Unionized.
At this time Mexican sourced parts and labor are NOT considered 'domestic' (newsflash - Mexico is not part of the U.S.); but when I asked you whether or not they should be part of the 'domestic' content IF the labor was Unionized, you said "perhaps".
In other words, that border between the U.S. and Mexico got a lot more nebulous when you considered if the labor was Unionized. In other words, the litmus test for 'domestic' CEASED to be where the border was and relied on the Unionization of the labor.
What about if Japanese labor is unionized? Do I still get a "perhaps"? Why not? What is intrinsically different between Unionized labor in Mexico vs. Unionized labor in Japan? (or even vs. Unionized labor in Canada for that matter?)
Okay - so that wasn't such a 'short' explanation. And if you don't want to discuss it in here, that's fine. I just wanted you to know WHY I get the impression I have.
Okay rorr, you called me out which is fine. I am very supportive of union labor because of my morales. I feel I have strong morale values. In short I'd rather support a worker who gets paid a fair wage, has some good benefits to take care of his/hers family, plus a good retirement. The Mexico question is moot at this point. Japan, has union labor in their auto-industry. I support that. OTOH, those same company's have done everything in their power to fight off the UAW, from unionizing by threatening peoples jobs in this country. I have a bone to pick with that. My morale values support human and worker rights. It's not just in automobile factory's but also in other industry' s.
I can't help who I am. I was raised this way. I guess I care a great deal about people and willing to support business's that also allow this small deed to happen. The non-union transplant workers don't have rights and they are a finger tap away from being fired. I know this because I've been in that situation before and sure it's easy for others to play armchair QB and say move-on and get over it. I always promised myself I would put myself in a situation where I could at least voice my opinion without retaliation and have been able to at Pantex. I've offered suggestions that save my company money and improved safety over my nearly 4 1/2 years. My family did the same at GM/Delphi. They offered safety improvements without retaliation, which in the long run ends up saving the company money because of a reduction in lost time injury's if the problem is severe enough. Your voice actually counts in a union environment manufacturing plant and you and your employer are held to a contract which was mutually agreed upon.
My $0.02 worth. Hope that helps pal. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
You'd have to be an idiot to not beable to tell the difference pal. One, touch of the finger or knock if you can't tell. I can look at any car and tell the difference
Whatever you say. By the way they are basically the same. The fake wood puts a thin layer of film that has been photographically etched from a "picture" of real wood (or it can be atisted up). "real" wood puts a very thin veneer over the same plastice substrate.
I am not saying there are poor plastic wood trims out there, just that it is real hard to tell nowadays.
Please don't think I'm questioning your values or morals. I think we just envision different paths to (ultimately - hopefully) achieve the same ends.
But in all honesty (and speaking as someone who has ALWAYS worked as a non-union employee), the non-union experiences (and your perception of the non-union work environment) sound COMPLETELY alien to what I've experienced.
Retaliation? Don't have rights? You make it sound like a non-union shop is akin to a Gulag......
Is it a solid piece of wood, cut from a tree and shaped,
or is it a backing piece of wood or plastic with veneers applied, which would be less likely to crack with age?
From 62's post I infer it's like the quarter round at Lowes and is a plastic goop for the matrix and a layer of color plastic on top, which may look better than a solid piece of wood could be made to look with location of and choice of grain and color variations?
I am not saying there are poor plastic wood trims out there, just that it is real hard to tell nowadays. That is true, but if I'm spending over $40 large ones I want "REAL WOOD" not the faux stuff. The real wood trim in the all-new Volvo S-80 is flat-out awesome. When it's combined with the light tan leather interior it's a piece of "ART" :shades: This is why I wish the "General" and "Ford" would merge into one superpower so I could not have any regrets buying a Volvo S80 :shades:
Well I guess the experience also has to do with job title pal. Perhaps you are high enough or have such a desirable skill you won't have my experience ever. I really hope you never do pal.
Comments
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The media is just now catching up to where GM is going. I find they are about 6 months behind the ball. 6 months ago it was all gloom and doom. There was little future for GM. They could not see a way out for them. Now some, such as the WSJ are talking about GM's plan and how there is no need for an alliance. Why could they not see this 6 months ago? GM has not hidden what they are doing. They are continueing to do what they said they had to do. They have been showing the great future products for a year. I mean almost all the cars in this article were shown to the press last year. They have concessions from the union in health care. etc. etc.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006610070363
Motors and transmissions fail? Geeze, I've never had a motor or transmission fail in a GM car. They're usually the last thing to go. Now, Ford on the other hand...
They ALL do, at some time or another. If you have a car and go 10 years without, you're doing pretty good! It's just that some need towed more than others...
Geeze, the LeMans was made over 20 years ago. Look at the Excel. Hyundai wasn't so hot back then but look at 'em now - challenging the Camry. If they only wouldn't copy old Japanese styling and go back to their own unique look.
Geeze, the LeMans was made over 20 years ago. Look at the Excel. Hyundai wasn't so hot back then but look at 'em now - challenging the Camry.
Hyundai is not a Daewoo. Is a Cadillac the same as a Ford just because they're from the same country? (provided they're not made in Mexico or somewhere...)
Rocky
100% agreement, Rocky! That's how I feel. What would it cost, maybe an extra $100? I'd pay for that!
Real wood is pretty rare in cars out there. And most cannot tell or care. Just so it looks nice to them.
so are we ready for real granite trim pieces?
Hell yeah, now you're talkin'!!!
Rocky
P.S.
IMHO the old Audi A200's had the best car interior design of any car ever made under 100K. Real leather on the dash, real wood and recaro seats. My best friends parents had a A200 Quattro and boy it was very comfy.
Rocky
Hmmm... Toyotas are made in Texas and Indiana, and Chevy's and Buicks are made in Mexico... Which ones are American cars again?
The '09 Dodge MegaCab. It comes with the kitchen sink option...
Good one pal !!!
Rocky
Rocky
BTW - I wonder how one would go about compiling a list of current cars with REAL wood trim? I think some folks in here would be surprised..... :surprise:
And remember, Canadian = domestic (even for parts suppliers....).
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Well, we really don't KNOW that, do we? Since, by definition, "Domestic" includes labor AND parts from Canada, average Joe-carbuyer, looking at the %-content label can't REALLY tell how much of the car is Canadian sourced.
BTW - if Mexican autoworkers were unionized like the UAW and the CAW, would it be fair for Mexican sourced labor to be included as 'domestic' on the labels?
What does 'real wood GRAIN' mean?
If it is real wood, why not SAY "real wood". Why 'real wood GRAIN'?
Just for the sake of argument, if a manufacturer made plastic trim parts which were IMPRINTED with a real wood (to get the correct 'grain' look), couldn't they legally say it had a 'real wood GRAIN'?
Well working in the industry about 6 years ago I do know there isn't many parts plants in Canada. True Joe six-pack wouldn't know.
BTW - if Mexican autoworkers were unionized like the UAW and the CAW, would it be fair for Mexican sourced labor to be included as 'domestic' on the labels?
Perhaps, but we won't see that haapen anytime soon. The Mexicans, have tried to form unions with no government help. It's ashame because it would help U.S. workers out if they were. At some point we will have the "Amero" currency and then it might happen. The United States of Canada and Mexico, might not be out of the question in 10 or 20 years with some politicians in this country's desire to form one currency.
Rocky
It's a natural resource made out of mostly carbon, and grows naturally in forest area's. :P
If it is real wood, why not SAY "real wood". Why 'real wood GRAIN'?
Good question ?
Just for the sake of argument, if a manufacturer made plastic trim parts which were IMPRINTED with a real wood (to get the correct 'grain' look), couldn't they legally say it had a 'real wood GRAIN'?
I wouldn't think so, but that also is a very good question.
Rocky
I don't think it'll happen either, which is why I stressed the "IF" part of my question. I was just trying to determine WHAT was more important to you - the country of origin or whether the labor was unionized. And I think I have my answer....
Rocky
I had two good questions? In one post? :P
Rocky
Rocky
And as for Pontiac, their minivan has already died a much deserved death. It will probably take them a year to clear out the most uninspiring 2006s though. Unless they can unload them all in the rental fleets, which is the only place I have ever seen the Montana SV6. Dealers refused to even stock them.
Isn't the GMC brand a farce for people who want to feel more manly? Not sure who they're fooling...
I guess in some parts of the country they also convey an image of wealth, but around here, people do that with luxury cars that actually take significant wealth to afford. Locally, the Range Rover is the main tool employed for this task on the truck/SUV side.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Fair enough.
But I can give you a SHORT explanation regarding why I THINK I have the answer.
Candian sourced labor was deemed 'Domestic' because, when the Congress was drafting the laws leading to the Monroney (sp?) labels, the Big 3 were using a lot of Canadian labor. They wanted to include anything they could to help 'pump up' the % of 'domestic' contents to help differentiate themselves from the 'imports'.
Many in here have justified that (and continued to justify it) on the basis that the Candian labor is Unionized in the CAW (originally part of the UAW).
In other words country of origin (Canada = NOT in the US) was deemed to be less important than whether or not the labor was Unionized.
At this time Mexican sourced parts and labor are NOT considered 'domestic' (newsflash - Mexico is not part of the U.S.); but when I asked you whether or not they should be part of the 'domestic' content IF the labor was Unionized, you said "perhaps".
In other words, that border between the U.S. and Mexico got a lot more nebulous when you considered if the labor was Unionized. In other words, the litmus test for 'domestic' CEASED to be where the border was and relied on the Unionization of the labor.
What about if Japanese labor is unionized? Do I still get a "perhaps"? Why not? What is intrinsically different between Unionized labor in Mexico vs. Unionized labor in Japan? (or even vs. Unionized labor in Canada for that matter?)
Okay - so that wasn't such a 'short' explanation. And if you don't want to discuss it in here, that's fine. I just wanted you to know WHY I get the impression I have.
Rocky
I can't help who I am. I was raised this way. I guess I care a great deal about people and willing to support business's that also allow this small deed to happen. The non-union transplant workers don't have rights and they are a finger tap away from being fired. I know this because I've been in that situation before and sure it's easy for others to play armchair QB and say move-on and get over it. I always promised myself I would put myself in a situation where I could at least voice my opinion without retaliation and have been able to at Pantex. I've offered suggestions that save my company money and improved safety over my nearly 4 1/2 years. My family did the same at GM/Delphi. They offered safety improvements without retaliation, which in the long run ends up saving the company money because of a reduction in lost time injury's if the problem is severe enough. Your voice actually counts in a union environment manufacturing plant and you and your employer are held to a contract which was mutually agreed upon.
My $0.02 worth. Hope that helps pal. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Rocky
Whatever you say. By the way they are basically the same. The fake wood puts a thin layer of film that has been photographically etched from a "picture" of real wood (or it can be atisted up). "real" wood puts a very thin veneer over the same plastice substrate.
I am not saying there are poor plastic wood trims out there, just that it is real hard to tell nowadays.
Like I said before. I learned in geography that Mexico is part of America.
But in all honesty (and speaking as someone who has ALWAYS worked as a non-union employee), the non-union experiences (and your perception of the non-union work environment) sound COMPLETELY alien to what I've experienced.
Retaliation? Don't have rights? You make it sound like a non-union shop is akin to a Gulag......
Is it a solid piece of wood, cut from a tree and shaped,
or is it a backing piece of wood or plastic with veneers applied, which would be less likely to crack with age?
From 62's post I infer it's like the quarter round at Lowes and is a plastic goop for the matrix and a layer of color plastic on top, which may look better than a solid piece of wood could be made to look with location of and choice of grain and color variations?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is true, but if I'm spending over $40 large ones I want "REAL WOOD" not the faux stuff. The real wood trim in the all-new Volvo S-80 is flat-out awesome. When it's combined with the light tan leather interior it's a piece of "ART" :shades: This is why I wish the "General" and "Ford" would merge into one superpower so I could not have any regrets buying a Volvo S80 :shades:
Rocky
Rocky
P.S. GM, called again while I was at work. :mad: