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General Motors discussions

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  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    It's surprising the amount of imported content in domestic cars. The starter in my new last domestic vehicle, a DCX product (cringe), was manufactured by Nippondenso. The vehicle was built in St. Louis, and the engine in Trenton, MI. I would have thought they would have bought from a USA-based manufacturer.

    On the other hand, some USA parts suppliers manufacture parts used in not only domestic vehicles, but imports as well. For example, Guardian West, one of the world's largest bumper manufacturers, makes bumpers for practically all the pickups, domestic or imports - and, they're located in central Illinois, and western Indiana.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I am sick of people attacking the GM warranty. How can anyone look at an improved warranty as a liability? When GM has its old warranty people said "they better improve their warranty before i'll consider their products". Now that the warranty has been beefed up people are complaining that it's too short.

    "I still have a problem swallowing the 5 year/100K thing. Does that mean their cars rust away if you don't drive them a lot? Does it mean that they are designed to last only 5 years no matter how much you drive them, then on year 5 and day 1 they fall apart? "

    I hope you are joking because that statement is ridiculous. It's not even possible to design components so precisely that you could ensure their failure after 5 years and one day. Also, the point of the 100k mile part of the warranty is to show that GM believes their powertrain components will last for 100K miles+ without a problem. My question is this: why dont Toyota and Honda offer healthier warranties if their products never have problems? People say GM should "stand behind their products" and offer 7 year/ 150k bumper to bumper warranties and yet the highest quality players in the game dont even do anything CLOSE to that. If a 5 year warranty doesnt inspire any confidence in GM products than I dont think anything will. Even luxury automakers dont offer more than that in spite of the high prices they command.

    Free maitenance is largely overrated because today's cars dont need much maintenance. If GM offered free maintenance for 5 years it would save you a couple hundred bucks at the most because GM cars only need oil changes and air filter changes for the most part. No tune ups, timing belt replacements, etc.

    "Also, Honda steps up to the plate and covers things that should be covered, whether its under warranty or not. "

    I havent heard good stories about import dealers stepping up to make warranty replacements. This is news to me. I NEVER had a problem getting my warranty work done without hassle, even on minor items like a squeaking door hinge that many people would've ignored.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Maybe some consider nippondenso and American company. I see they just opened a plant in Georgia so that makes them American...

    I looked into their stock on the nippondenso.com webpage for investors so I could invest in this American company and it's traded on the Tokyo exchange. Is that on Wall Street? I'm bad in geography, apparently. :blush:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    1. I think most automotive commercials are silly and few of them actually make people buy a car. I think Honda's ads for the CR-V and other vehicles are amongst the worst out there. GM's ads are not always the best, but they have some that are good. I like the new line of Saturn commercials and the Sierra commercials.

    2. There are cheap four cylinder domestic cars on the market now: Ion, Cobalt, G5, HHR, Caliber, Malibu, Fusion, Focus. The Astra is coming later this year to replace the Ion.

    3. GM redesigns its cars every 5-6 years. Toyota uses a 5 year cycle in most cases. The Highlander is on a 7 year cycle though. Most import "refereshes" are a joke and are barely noticable to the average buyer. MB, BMW and Toyota are famous for this.

    4. Domestics often drop model names due to baggage with those model names. Some people feel this is logical while others do not. Import companies are constantly introducing new model names. Remember the Legend, Vigor and Integra?

    5. With the exception of the luxury car class domestic vehicles usually are the most powerful in class. The Cobalt is more powerful than it's peers as is the 300C, Outlook/Acadia, Tahoe, Impala SS, Corvette, Mustang GT, etc.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    check out the autoweek.com comparo between the Aura and Camry. The editors preferred the Aura for numerous reasons even though the Camry was faster and had shorter braking distances.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Hyundai/Kia are sourcing more and more of their parts right here in the US. All build engines here, for example. Most of the large global suppliers, like Bosch and Siemens VDO (Germany) and Denso and Aisin Seiki (Japan) have a big presence in the US.

    It's only logical to produce as much as possible where you sell the finished product -- greatly reduces shipping costs and insulates the automaker from international currency fluctuations.

    The latest trend for the newest assembly plants, for both the traditional Detroit automakers and the import brands, is to build supplier parks adjacent to the plants, or in some cases, have the suppliers inside the plants.
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    One thing about covering 'scheduled' maintenance for a period of time. Many folks change oil every 3-4 thousand miles. If the normal maintenance schedule is 7500 miles, then that is what you would get. Also, I would think that any manufacturer offering this would have to build the associated costs into their product cost. You are not going to get a free lunch very often.
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    I may be a little off on this since I'm going from memory, but I think GM actually reduced MSRP on many models over the past couple of year. IIRC this was to cut the amount of rebates offered but to keep the net costs about the same. Example, pricy SUV with MSRP of $40K, invoice $37K then $5K rebate would net out at about $32K a couple of years ago. Cutting MSRP/invoice several thousand as well as the rebates about the same would still net competive prices, but reduce the stigma of HUGE rebates to move the vehicles. I think this was done in the 2005 model year.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Plus I like changing the oil myself -- that's the only way I know it's done absolutely right.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I could not wait 7,500 miles before getting my first oil change. I'd have changed it 2.5 times before that interval. I don't mind doing the maintenance on my vehicle. At least I know there won't be oil spills and handprints all over the engine compartment after I do an oil change. Heck, I use the opportunity to clean up portions of the engine compartment I wouldn't normally clean when I wash the car.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Well, sweeping those "one-time" charges under the rug is misleading, IMO. It's still real (and huge) money.

    I'd rather know what the WHOLE picture is.

    If I were running a small business, I suppose I could say I would have made a profit this year, except I had to make a "one-time" charge to replace the roof of my plant. ;)
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    "See the Japanese and Koreans have their destractors too its just not the Domestic 2.5 that have detractors."

    More damagingly, I think, is that in this survey, the people who didn't buy/consider American makes did so for reasons to do with the car -- reliability, style, etc. The fact that such a huge percentage of domestic sales are spurred on by what can only be described as jingoism doesn't bode well for the American manufacturers, imo.

    "What are you saying that Asian car detractors are not a growing demographic(not in the midwest anyway.) I'll agree with you if thats what you are saying."

    Yes -- I think the demographic that would reject Asian makes simply because they're Asian is a shrinking and old-skewing demographic. As the unions continue to diminish in power and influence, as young people from the Midwest flee to the coasts and to the sunbelt at the earliest opportunity, and as folks with bad memories of WWII age, the number of people who harbor a non-product-related bias against Asian makes is going to eventually dwindle away to nothing.

    Hopefully by then the big 2.5 will be able to field a competitive product line across the board, because "This is Ouuurrrr Country" ain't gonna cut it anymore, not even to a limited extent.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Don't make me go out and take pictures of the origin labels on all the parts I pulled off my '92 SE-R. "Foreign" makes have been sourcing parts from US (and Canadian and Mexican post-NAFTA) suppliers for almost as long as they've been building vehicles here.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Caution: magazine comparos are subject to journalist bias and influence from advertisers. YMMV.

    Hey, you asked me to spread the word, no? ;)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Absolutely. Prices were dropped significantly and rebates are very low on alomost all models (older trucks however still have high incentives)

    But when the warranty came out there was no increase to cover it.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Well, sweeping those "one-time" charges under the rug is misleading, IMO. It's still real (and huge) money.

    None are "swept" under the rug. If you look at the releases all the data is there. My point was that GM is making profits on their vehicle sales. However it cost money to buyout employees, etc. AND they make money selling assets (GMAC/Suzuki).

    You are absolutely right on the overall cash burn and GM hopefully will not have huge money outlays in the near future and get back to making money overall.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    In the first half of the year, GM will cut its shipments to car rental companies by about 120,000, Mark LaNeve, GM's North American sales and marketing chief, said during a conference call with reporters. Sales to car rental firms
    likely will be flat from last year in the second half, he said.


    I'd be very interested in knowing the specic models that 120K will involve.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    a 21 percent sales increase among large SUVs made by domestic automakers, and came despite a fading mid-size SUV class.

    gas is cheap again and incentives are high on older models.

    Though import players haven't played a huge role in the recovery, there are also signs that their large SUVs are drawing more interest.


    James Akinola, new car sales manager at Castle Toyota in Baltimore, said SUV sales are booming despite mild conditions this winter that could have otherwise threatened demand. He credited improved conditions at the fuel pump.

    "I can tell you a lot of people are coming in to buy pickup trucks and SUVs, and you can attribute that directly to gas prices being low." He noted strong demand for Toyota Motor Corp.'s 4-Runner SUV and an unusually robust appetite for gas-guzzling V-8 engines.

    As bigger vehicles meet stronger demand, Castle Toyota's hybrid-electric vehicle sales "are at a standstill now," Akinola said. The dealership is offering a $3,000 discount on hybrid SUVs and a $1,000 discount on the Prius sedan.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    How many people do you know with recent GM vehicles that have been in the shop many times?

    You need to go check the Equinox, G6 or Cobalt Problems & Solutions forums for a start.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    My girlfriend bought a new Buick LaCrosse in March 2005. She has yet to take the car in for any warranty i ssues.

    Do you have this set-up as a template?
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    Domestics often drop model names due to baggage with those model names.

    Would you care to elaborate on what baggage means?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    At least I know there won't be oil spills and handprints all over the engine compartment after I do an oil change.

    Do you get those spills and handprints at GM or Mr Goodwrench? Don't think it was at a Honda or Toyota dealer.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I think I'd sooner share a cell with Schillinger (A-B gang leader from "Oz") than step foot in a Honda or Toyota dealer. If the Toyota sales experience is like sticking one's hand in a tank full of piranhas while holding a raw steak, the service experience must be akin to what happened to Ned Beatty in "Deliverance!"
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The only real way to figure this out is with quantitative data, not hearsay and what you read on a forum.

    I do not have access to individual model data anymore but the 2006 JD Power VDS (3 years reliability) has Pontiac at Industry average at 2.3 problems per car. Toyota at 1.8. Not a heck of a lot of difference.

    For initial quality Pontiac is at 1.3 while Toyota is at 1.1. Again not much of a difference.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    Pontiac's 2.3 average problems per car probably means something like head gaskets $$$, transmission issues $$$$, and $$$ expensive electrical issues.

    Toyota's 1.8 problems is probably a loose plastic panel on the interior, and a power seat that isn't perfectly smooth moving up and down. $$ small money items.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    I can tell you what baggage means as far as Dodge and Chrysler goes.

    Changed NEON to Calibre... OK.... Whatever you want to call it, it doesn't matter to me.

    Named another new vehicle the Nitro..... too close to Neon.. dangerous baggage there!

    Baggage would be: That was the biggest piece of junk I ever bought or drove. That is definitely a car I'll never buy again. That was the worst service I've ever received at a dealer, and I went to 2 different one's in Sacramento and one in San Luis Obispo. They all cheated you. But the biggest cheat of all is that they didn't sell these for less than 4 figures, which is how much they are really worth, even brand new.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    You know the Neon was not really a bad car. It outclassed most of the other cars in the compact class by quiet a bit.

    Its just too bad the early ones had all of the head gasket problems.

    An ACR Neon is on my short list for a future NASA Rally Car or SCCA RallyCross car.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    You know the Neon was not really a bad car. It outclassed most of the other cars in the compact class by quiet a bit.

    Its just too bad the early ones had all of the head gasket problems.


    You know... the Neon was a fairly decent car when it ran. Problem is it seemed it was in the shop all of the time, consistently, over the years, even though it was babied and taken care of very well. The Neon's just didn't run reliably or dependably, and it seemed every problem it has was a $200+ problem.

    The truth is it was more than just the early models that had head gasket problems. I've read through the forums both here and on msn, and it seems that Dodge never made an effort to ever improve the Neon in the slightest bit; especially regarding Head Gaskets and Auto Tranny. It's my father's fault I got the 3 speed auto version that only lasted 65K miles, I'd of taken the 5 speed, but still, it only lasted 65K miles! He said I would of crashed the 5 speed, he felt auto was safer.

    But besides head gaskets, you had faulty electrical wiring and batteries that corroded starting at the terminals, finishing at the starter. You had leaky O rings, bad O2 sensors, bad serpentine belts, bad rattles and wind noise, bad parking brakes, bad windshields and body structure, bad auto transmissions, inefficient gas guzzling engine when you forced it to act like the 132HP engine it was supposed to be. When you drove for efficiency it was weak and slow, and not really that gas efficient. You had bad dashboards, bad seals, bad glues, bad door/window trimmings, leaky gas tanks.

    About the only thing that never went completely wrong was the engine (if you don't count head gaskets leaking - which in turn led to low coolant, which in turn led to overheating), and the ABS brakes (though they were loud). Over the years, the car felt like it was falling apart in that the rattles got worse, louder, and occurred in more places.

    Oh yeah, I forgot, one of the more expensive repairs, the AC compressor failing literally on day 1 after 3 years/36K mile warranty expiration, which in turn led to a burnt timing belt that had to be replaced. The AC replacement is very expensive!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    SO many things can go wrong other than in the powertrain. In fact... the lemon I owned only had maybe 2 powertrain problems out of many.

    Do leaky head gaskets fall into powertraiN? If not, then it was just 1.. the tranny failing. Out of like 100 issues.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Pontiac's 2.3 average problems per car probably means something like head gaskets $$$, transmission issues $$$$, and $$$ expensive electrical issues.

    Toyota's 1.8 problems is probably a loose plastic panel on the interior, and a power seat that isn't perfectly smooth moving up and down. $$ small money items.


    Probably. I'm sure you have the data to back it up. Or is it just more opinion and what you think? I'm sure it is because of those expensive powertrain issues that GM has the 100,000 mile warranty and Toyota does not. Makes real sense doesn't it? GM takes on a warranty program that will put it out of business? NOT. :P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Dealers are independent from the manufacturers and vary all over the map. Again the data shows that Toyota is well below average while GM makes are above.

    http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=csr&story=csrCsi&ref- erer=advice&aff=msnbc
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    You forgot the paint which peeled like a bad sunburn...although they weren't the only ones that did that
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Do leaky head gaskets fall into powertraiN? If not, then it was just 1.. the tranny failing. Out of like 100 issues.

    Uhh, yea the engine head gaskets would be part of the powertrain. What vehicle/year are we talking about?
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    One thing I found interesting at the link you provided:
    Cars.com Customer Service Satisfaction Retention

    is that Buick Customers LOVE their dealers

    Customer Service Ratings

    Lexus 912
    Buick 911
    Cadillac 909
    Jaguar 908

    Sales Satisfaction

    Jaguar 889
    Lexus 888
    Buick 878

    But Buick's Customer retention rate is below average:


    Customer Retention


    Industry Average 48.4%
    Jaguar 48.3%
    Subaru 48.0%
    Audi 46.0%
    Saturn 45.0%
    Dodge 44.5%
    Buick 44.4%

    Note that Buick isn't the lowest by any means, but I didn't want to past the whole table here.

    Same with Jaguar. What's going on here? We know it isn't reliability with Buick.... they've done well.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...as for my girlfriend and I, we'll be back at Buick in the future. They've been extremely good to us.

    Not to perpetuate a stereotype, but maybe the reason Buick's retention rate is low is because its customers die before they can make another trip back for a new car?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    It was a '95 Dodge Neon Sport!

    You know.. the morning after delivery (first morning I had it/first full day cause it arrived late in the afternoon) it didn't start in the morning. Faulty fuel pump and sensor or something like that. That was the first time it had to be towed, right out of my garage. That should of been my signal to scream and holler for a refund. That was like an evil omen, only I didn't heed the warning.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    You forgot the paint which peeled like a bad sunburn...although they weren't the only ones that did that

    I had my Neon garaged, and washed religiously every 2 weeks. Although it wasn't garaged the last 2 years I had it, it didn't display signs of peeling (yet) on the paint. Good quality car washes with good quality soap and polishers and waxes make the difference. Like I said; I babied it; unfortunately, the thing was designed to require tow truck service to move.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    That's hilarious about Buick owners dying before they can sell their Buick's. Come to think of it, maybe that's why the resale value is so poor, because the people who inherit the estate and the vehicle are just trying to get rid of the thing and don't care about getting top dollar on their sale; just a quick sale?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Found this little exchange in the Impala discussion -

    attempted to trade in my Impala (2LT 8500 miles, Bose, 6 CD changer, ABS, Traction) on a 2006 program Cadillac and got a quote of $13,000 from the Chevy/Cadillac dealer. He is selling program Impalas for $16,800-18,000. If you ever want to get rid of your Impala sell it privately. I for one will never again purchase a new GM product. A program car with a few thousand miles costs $7,000 less. I guess I'll probably do what thousands have already done henceforth and head to Toyota or Honda where the cars hold their resale value. Must be a reason why. A $10,000 depreciation in 9 months on a midsize domestic car seems rather steep!!!!

    #2179 of 2282 Re: Trade In Value of 2006 Impala [dispencer1] by charts2 Dec 19, 2006 (5:26 pm)

    I like the Impala BUT I have been stating for a few years now its better to buy a used Impala then a new one. No one knows that some circumstance might force a person to sell their car earlier then anticipated and get the surprise of their life of the terrible resale value of these cars. Its near impossible to sell these cars privately, there are thousands dumped on used car lots every year by fleet customers depressing values including LTZs and a few SS cars. Its a win situation and a buyers market for 1 or 2 year old Impalas. I am not knocking the car just giving the facts. GM is reducing the number of cars sold to fleets. Last year Honda/Toyota sold around 11% each to fleets. 2005 over 40% of Impalas went to fleet services.
    •17 am)

    #2180 of 2282 Re: Trade In Value of 2006 Impala [charts2] by billwfriend Dec 20, 2006 (5:27 am)

    I'm sorry you didn't do your homework ahead of time. Domestic automakers fill rental fleets with their vehicles (something Toyota is begging to do now too), so they depreciate ALOT over the first 36 months, as supply of used domestic vehicles far outpaces demand.

    This isn't anything new... been this way for a couple decades now....


    I know that GM started cutting their fleet sales back last year, but it looks like there's a long way to go.

    Most people seem to like the cars... but not the resale.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Could it be that Buick's owners die before they make another car purchase? :P

    Ok, I hope not. Im' 38 and own 3 Buicks
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Be careful driving home tonight! ;)
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Thanks I was TRYING to be original, but now reading the post after yours I see I'm a copycat, though I'd rather be a Wildcat (Buick, of course) :P
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    How do Buicks do in the safety ratings? Maybe their owners die a lot because of that before repurchasing :P
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Actually they are just below industry average so it is not that bad.

    I can only surmise but most likely these buyers are not coming back because this Buick is their last car. Buick buyers are an older demographic (average age around 65). We all know that. So about half of the buyers are over 65 at time of purchase.

    The cars are of such high quality that they are keeping them a long time and older folks tend to keep cars longer because they do not put as many miles on them, etc.. So if a 65 year old keeps his car 10 years he is 75 and is probably not going to buy another one. About half are over 65 at the purchase time so many buy at 70, 75, etc. and are rally not going to get another car at 80, 85, 90.

    make sense?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    '95 was 12 years ago and it is not even a GM car.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    True, 95 was 12 years ago, however, I kept the car for about 5.5 years???? So it was only 6 years ago till I got rid of the damn thing.

    Also.... during one of the many breakdowns I rented a Chevy Cavalier... didn't seem much better to me.

    Also.. I read a lot of 1998, 1999 Neon reviews and consumer statements and not much different from the writers of the 1995/96 Neon owner commentators.

    Would I buy a GM car before a Dodge. Yes.

    Main reason: GM has upped their warranty and Dodge hasn't, plus chrysler dodge screwed me on repairs and never offered to pay for anything after 3 yr/36K mark.

    Why haven't Ford and Dodge followed suit to copy GM's warranty plan? Seems to me that there maybe be American autos out there that are even worse than GM's offerings.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    ...[Buick] buyers are not coming back because this Buick is their last car...

    You know, weird as it seems, it just may be true!

    A quick sweep of the web says that the average age of a Buick owner is 63 (compared to 58 for Cadillac)"a number that hasn't changed in five years"

    Buick

    That would mean that about half of them are older than that... and that the "last car" theory might be true.

    Lemko, of course, skews the statistics enough to make up for a two or three of the 90 year olds! ;)
  • lemonhaterlemonhater Member Posts: 110
    Actuly it depends. The Toyota dealer the cars were bought from did drive hard bargins(since ah they were trying to make as much as possible), but their service department was pretty nice.

    Actually one of the smartest things they did offer with the sale of the car is free oil changes for the life of the car. It brought people into the service department where they could a. gain money servicing and b. kept toyota's imagine intact by repeat buyers.

    The dealer changed ownership after ten years and the oil changes went out with the new owner. In addition, I don't really don't seem to care for the new owners. They are not as friendly at all and i don't see the attetion to detail the other ones had.

    However the dealer my mom got the avlon from seens again to be a friendly place.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    You're right about that.

    With the small family-owned dealerships going the way of the dodo bird, and the large dealership chains taking over, it really doesn't matter what automaker's nameplate is on the building.

    The sales and service experience will depend more on the dealership's own policies.

    So if you find sharks at that dealer's Chevy store, you'll find the same at the Toyota store, more than likely.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    So if you find sharks at that dealer's Chevy store, you'll find the same at the Toyota store, more than likely.

    Actually the data shows that you are more likely to get the sharks at a Toyota store.
This discussion has been closed.