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Yeah but the Domestics are more famous for re-naming cars or dropping names of cars than the Japanese makes are.
Yeah but you forgot to mention that Lexus was number 1 in customer service satisfaction which is Toyota's luxury brand. I did see that the Toyota brand itself(maybe in that survey Scion's scores are combined with the Toyota brand itself)with was under the industry average for customer service satisfaction in that link you provided though.
Caddy outsold Mercedes in 2005 so Caddy can compete with Mercedes in terms of sales anyway. Mercedes-the M-Class and the S-Class to an extent right now are hot sellers.
"The ford focus isn’t bad looking, and the interior isn’t nor fuel effcency isn’t that bad. But between my attitude with Ford and all those danged recalls(juz, I can understand 1 or 2 recalls for something minor not 9!). CR loved it, but it would take an act of God before I bought one."
It took CR 2 or 3 years to reccomend the Focus because of below average reliability of the first 2 or 3 years of the 00's Focus model cycle. I'm sure by the 03 model year Ford had the bugs worked out of the Focus.
I`d like to see if Ford will finally decide to bring the Euro Focus over... probably not though as they already made another facelift for the `08 model... eh... well
Despite interest in the new 2008 Saturn Astra, Automtotive News says that GM plans to import only 20,000 to 40,000 of the vehicles each year from Europe. Those figures will go up once GM retools a plant in North America to build the car. Saturn sold more than 100,000 IONs in 2005.
just saw that on the net... I guess it`s get them first before they start producing them in the States...
Scion has not been around 3 years.
Yes Lexus does great as does Caddilac.
My brother has bought T100 and Tundra, and I haven't heard any sstories of him going back to Toyota.
If Toyota had the worst service in the world and ranked 2222% below all others, I wouldn't worry about it one iota.
I'm not so sure I believe the "data," which is from JD Powers. I've read that some of their surveys are so long that it's questionable if people really take the time to fill them in accurately after they get past the umpteenth question.
FWIW, in my burg in Central VA, each make only has one dealer, and some of the newer luxury imports like Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura have no dealers in town. Dealership chain "B" (which is part of the same chain of stores in the DC area) has franchises for Chrysler, Dodge, Honda, Mercedes, Saab, Subaru, and Toyota/Scion. He also had Oldsmobile before it folded.
I can confidently assert that this dealer's lousy sales and service policies apply to all of the franchises. They don't have the dreaded "second sticker" for new cars with the pinstripes, mop 'n glo, etc., but they do sock you with a $248 "processing fee" (doc fee in other states). This fee could be higher for Mercedes; I don't know for sure.
They also offer "tires for life," which is a joke because to get the "free" replacement tires, you have to take your car in to ONLY their dealerships every 5K miles for rotation, plus balancing and alignment if needed. So by the time the tires need actual replacement, you've probably paid enough in labor to cover the tire cost anyway.
For these reasons, I know or have seen many people from my town go 20-40 miles away to buy their cars from other dealerships (the dealer's name on the license plate frame says it all).
I myself will darken this dealership's door only for my free annual state inspection ($15 elsewhere) plus recall and warranty work for my Toyotas. Needless to say, I don't see the place very often (2 recalls in 10 years of Toyota ownership and 1 warranty repair).
2007 Chrysler Sebring:
2.4 L: 24/32 mpg
2.7 L: 22/30 mpg
3.5 L: 19/28 mpg
2008 Dodge Avenger:
2.4 L: 21/30 mpg
2.7 L: 19/28 mpg
3.5 L: 17/26 mpg
I think thre will be a transition time of about 5 months of overlap (end of '07 CY) but then it will not matter anymore. the dealers will explain it pretty easily.
But I will comment that the EPA ratings are based on the emmissions testing and then adjusted. The actual rate of consumption will depend on how you drive, not what the EPA rating is. The value of the EPA rating only shows that one vehicle is probably going to use more or less fuel than another.
My 2002 Seville was rated 18 city, 27 highway; I get about 29 MPG on long trips if I limit my speed to about 70 MPH on interstates, even if the speed limit is higher.
Hopefully you use the right lane most of the time...
I used to frequent the G6 forum and there werent many complaints. In fact, the forum is actually pretty slow right now. What are you talking about? Perhaps there is another G6 I dont know about. How about you check out the Camry problems forum and then report back to us about what is going on there.
First of all, how would the editors be able to make decisions based on advertising if EVERY automaker buys ad space in their magazines? This argument doesnt hold water in any way because anyone who reads C&D or MT knows that they will rip a GM product in an issue that features half a dozen ads from GM. It happens all the time.
BTW, bias is typically suggested when the rankings in a comparo are totally contradictory to the performance results and the value proposition offered by the vehicles in the test. If you are saying the Autoweek test is biased that would be kind of hard to support seeing as the though the cars essentially performed to the same standard an the Saturn was cheaper. They really could've gone either way based on the test results and their overall impressions of each car.
You said to check out the "G6 problems and solutions forum" and I didnt even see one. Most forums related to problems with the G6 hadnt been used in many weeks. As far as I know, topics related to problem plagued cars are pretty busy.
Amen!!!
Try this one. has a few problems.
You need to look at JD Powers or Consumer Reports to get a meaningful sample size.
Well, as I'm sure you know, there are plenty of folks who dispute both of those surveys for differing reasons.
But your point that judging quality based on an internet forum is risky at best and foolhardy at worst (my rewording) is spot on as I see it.
Thanks for your post. I have to say one of the things I hate to see around here is when people say, oh, there are all these problems, I'm not going to consider this car (whatever it is). As you say people who have problems are more likely to complain and taking those complaints as an across the board experience for any car is a big mistake.
IMHO, of course.
What he's saying of course is that popular cars are going to generate more complaints, simply because there's more of them on the road. I doubt there's anybody left complaining about their Yugos or Vegas!
I haven't even checked out the Autoweek comparo yet. I spend too much time in these forums!
Motor Bend "rips" GM? Geez, I thought they still say all cars are good except for this tiny nit and that smidge of a problem.
Didn;t MT name their 1997 Car of the Year the Chevy Malibu? So I don;t think their biased.
Well, as I'm sure you know, there are plenty of folks who dispute both of those surveys for differing reasons.
But your point that judging quality based on an internet forum is risky at best and foolhardy at worst (my rewording) is spot on as I see it.
Thanks for your post. I have to say one of the things I hate to see around here is when people say, oh, there are all these problems, I'm not going to consider this car (whatever it is). As you say people who have problems are more likely to complain and taking those complaints as an across the board experience for any car is a big mistake.
IMHO, of course.
What he's saying of course is that popular cars are going to generate more complaints, simply because there's more of them on the road.
I am not going to disagree with your comment but the Edmunds comment said nothing about popular cars and volume, though he could have if he thought of it.
GM = 5 yr. / 100K better warranty for added mi.
Hyundai = 10 yr. / 100k best warranty, plus the 5 year of bumper to bumper warranty.
Yes, GM OHV engines should be pretty reliable, as should be the old 4 speed transmissions. The Cadillac CTS has a 5sp. automatic and the reliability is pretty good. And I suppose the modern engines by GM are fairing well.
For a four cylinder, I would still place my bet on a Honda or Toyota lasting the longest. I said bet, not any data I have other than observations and what they sound like to the ear. Domestic four bangers and some sixers sound like they are thrashing along their way down the road. Would I say a good ol' reliable OHV 3.5 GM six is gonna get the job down providing decent power and gas mileage, with longevity ? Well sure I would. Other than the manifold problems, I can not think of any real issues with the old tried and true 3.8 OHV engine.
I think the 3.5 V6 is not a bad cost saving idea, though an iron block and OHV is not as impressive as aluminum block to save weight and DOHC engines. If it is significantly less costly to produce, and GM can sell their G6 for a couple to three thousand under say a Honda, I can buy into that. But there are other lower priced cars getting into the mix now with modern engines, like the Sonata. If the New Malibu has a stock 3.6 V6, that would be something. A DOHC V6 with lots of power. And I would imagine smoother. I tested an Aura, and the 3.5 V6 was good, but not overall great. But of course, we have a choice here, as for $4K you can upgrade. I am not sure about the mix message though. Is an Aura upscale or bargain car? Considering the Sonata has a 235HP V6 modern engine, an Aura with a good engine may not be good enough? I personally think the 3.5 V6 has enough HP for most people, but when the comparison testing starts, then things tough -- as in I may not be tough, but the car reviewers will be. Yes, I know NA Car of the Year.
But, if you pay sticker for an Aura, while getting a discount on an Accord, Honda, or even the G6, then the upscale Saturn Aura starts to look less of a steal of a deal.
-Loren
Rocky
PLease tell me you are not serious. MT (or any magazine) will throw out a bone to an american product every now and then, usually to a performance model like the vette or viper. I never said MT has hated every single GM car they have tested but you have to read their reviews on a consistent basis. They have now taken the position that Korean cars are better than American cars. Read their COTY mini tests and you will see what I am talking about. They are ambivalent at best about the Aura and Sebring while the Optima (with an optional 185hp V6) became a finalist for the trophy. In last year's COTY issue they totally ripped the Lucerne and DTS and said the Azera (which hasnt sold well BTW) was clearly a superior car for less money and GM was in serious trouble in regards to the Koreans. The only domestic vehicles MT likes are the new GM SUVs, the pickups, 300C and V6. Check out their ratings in the annual new car issues. Most domestic models get 2-3 star ratings while virtually every Honda/Toyota gets 4 stars regardless of the age of the model in question. They have the Land Cruiser and LX470 4 or 5 star ratings when those vehicles are clearly obsolete in today's luxury SUV marker. I could only find a handful of Japanese models that got less than 4 stars.
He'll anchor news from Detroit
January 29, 2007
BY JULIE HINDS
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
Does the rest of America care about the bad news from the domestic auto industry? Charles Gibson thinks so.
He's set to anchor ABC's "World News" broadcast from metro Detroit tonight and Tuesday.
He's also moderating a town hall meeting on the state of the auto industry that airs live at 8 tonight on WXYZ-TV (Channel 7).
Gibson, 63, talks about what's happening to the Big Three and its workers with journalistic curiosity and human empathy.
He describes how he'll occasionally spend a drive studying cars in the street, noting the percentage that are American as opposed to foreign. It's something he's done for years.
He also shares the story of how his father-in-law, who worked in the steel industry, lost his pension.
Gibson is eager to find out what people here think about what's happening now, and he believes viewers outside this region will share his interest.
"I think it's important to Americans that we be in the car business, because it's one of the things that speaks to the strength of the country," he says.
Monday's "World News" broadcast is scheduled to have interviews with Ford's Alan Mulally and General Motors' Rick Wagoner. The plan is for Gibson to visit GM's design center and anchor from Ford's historic Rouge plant.
The Tuesday newscast is supposed to focus on life after taking a buyout, with Gibson anchoring from downtown Detroit.
Speaking from his New York office, Gibson sounds like a man who enjoys gabbing about weighty issues, not that he considers the current anchor wars among them.
Since taking over at "World News" in May, he's helped restore a sense of stability at ABC News, where staffers were rocked by the death of Peter Jennings and the injuries suffered in Iraq by Bob Woodruff.
Media watchers have been following the ratings race intensely, especially since the arrival of CBS's Katie Couric to the anchor game.
And Gibson? Well, he'd rather take the emphasis off the obsession with anchors, although he realizes it's probably a losing battle.
"I understand there's a natural inclination, because it's easy, to write about Charlie vs. Brian vs. Katie and to personalize it. Is Brian up? Is Katie down? Is Charlie up? Is Brian down? Whatever. It's the same thing politicians complain about, it's the horse-race stories."
In this particular race, "NBC Nightly News" with Brian Williams is still the leader, but Gibson's "World News" is comfortably ahead of Couric's "CBS Evening News." According to ABC, ratings for Jan. 15-19 showed "World News" increased its total audience compared to the previous year for the fifth straight week.
Gibson's feelings on the matter are clear. He believes people stay with a newscast because it gives them a sense of what happened that day and what they need to know.
And he'd rather not pay attention to the ratings, especially the ones that track minutely which stories score and which tank.
"If you begin to think people need to know what's going to be popular, you've ceded your editorial judgment to readership surveys or to ratings," he says.
Gibson admits with a laugh that he's no good at predicting what will do well in the ratings.
"Look, if I did a series of stories on Donald Trump and Rosie O'Donnell, it might spike the ratings," he says. "I'm always wrong on that stuff."
Then, in friendly Gibson fashion, he gives a nod to his former "Good Morning America" colleague. "Diane Sawyer's instincts on ratings were impeccable and mine were wrong. She was always right."
Since moving from "Good Morning America" to "World News," Gibson has enjoyed the chance to go out to dinner with his wife at night and take later flights on vacations.
Gibson knows how to savor a simple pleasure. His big moment happened in September, he says, when he watched a nighttime football game from beginning to end.
The "problems" forums can be kept "busy" by the same people arguing back and forth, just like this forum!
2006 calendar year sales (from Automotive News, 1/8/07):
Camry: 448,445
G6: 157,644
Sonata: 149,513
Fusion: 142,502 (Milan adds another 35,853)
When they favor the domestics: They throw a bone once awhile.
Am I missing something here...
:confuse:
The Tuesday newscast is supposed to focus on life after taking a buyout, with Gibson anchoring from downtown Detroit.
Thanks for info about upcoming broadcasts. Gibson is a "good" guy and believable. Want to hear conv he has with Wagoner.
Your own Caddy videos
GM, Ford and Hyundai seem locked in the value game. But bang for the buck is all a matter of opinion and preference in a way. A GM old engine V6, a somewhat less powerful Ford V6 vs say a new modern engine from Hyundai V6 or a Honda V6 or even a pretty smooth i4.
The new line of G6 cars, be it the Aura, or New Malibu look promising, but I am thinking that they all should have the 3.6 V6 in them. Perhaps raise the price of the Aura to $22K and make them all 3.6 V6 with 6 speed transmissions.
-Loren
I was wrong. The G6 is a 4 1/2 dot so it is the same rating as the Sonata. Sorry about getting the rating wrong. So it looks like all the cars in this class are nearly the same for reliability after all.
-Loren
I sat in the Sebring and its terible because of all the hard plastics they use in it and the styling to me(which is yes subjective I know) just looks like a mess to me. In my opinion, they have a right to rip the Sebring from what I have saw of it. I don;t know if the Optima is a better car than the Aura because I am not a big fan of Kia because I am suspect of their reliability. The Aura looks like a well executed product to me from what I have seen of it at an autoshow.
"In last year's COTY issue they totally ripped the Lucerne and DTS and said the Azera (which hasnt sold well BTW) was clearly a superior car for less money and GM was in serious trouble in regards to the Koreans."
The DTS is a 40,000 dollar car so I don;t know if that is comparable to the Azera in terms of segments that both cars compete in but the Lucrene and Azera(obviously) are in the same price range and segments though.
Well GM is in serious trouble in regards to the Koreans because the koreans have been gaining market share for the past 10 years while GM has been losing market share in that same time frame in the US.
"Check out their ratings in the annual new car issues. Most domestic models get 2-3 star ratings while virtually every Honda/Toyota gets 4 stars regardless of the age of the model in question. They have the Land Cruiser and LX470 4 or 5 star ratings when those vehicles are clearly obsolete in today's luxury SUV marker. I could only find a handful of Japanese models that got less than 4 stars. "
I'll agree the Land Cruiser/LX 470 is pretty obselete though.
I'm not trying to pick on you but your post for some reason made me think about something.
Some people want GM, to improve their products and said they would be willing to pay more for them. Others want it all but don't want to pay more but would for a Toyota, Honda, etc.....I've read many people's posts about GM's cars that want 4-cylinder's as base models but want the option of picking the trim so GM does that with the 08' Malibu, and some people will still not be happy. :confuse:
My conclusion: I think GM, will never be able to do enough to please the import biased crowd no matter what they do and people will always bring up the past as a reference to justify why they hate GM, it's products, and it's employees. :sick:
I personally don't want "those people" to drive my brand anyways for various reasons....
Rocky
Rocky
Amen, Bro! I've said some of that before but not eloquently as you have done. You covered the whole base.
Importers want GM to give them every little feature that they found in their well-loved import but will find fault with everything else to justify their end result. GM should give more features but charge less to be able to compete. they shouldn't have round air conditioning outlets. They shouldn't have "hard plastics." They shouldn't have rear seats. They should have rear seats. They should have a car like the NSX. They shouldn't have a car like NSX. They should compete with the 65 mpg 299 horsepower AXXort--of course it has not torque at 2500 rpm but that advertised maximum horsepower at 7900 rpms with 6 cams and 8-speed transmission really is what every car should be!
It's like spoiled child; they always want something else from the giver.
I want a car that has room, a smooth, controlled ride, good gas mileage, real safety of mass (not just insurance institutde engineering), dependable motor and transmission that don't fail due to being the road test of a 5-speed transmission design when 4-speeds do just fine. I just expect what I've gotten in engineering.
As to those reciting long history of quality from the 80s when the first imports in numbers were beginning to be marketed in this part of the country, in the 90s I saw air compressors from foreign brands taken apart for various purposes. I saw GM's air compressors. Talk about minimalization in parts & engineering on the foreign brands at that time! Of course some of the better makes used GM compressors.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Well GM is in serious trouble in regards to the Koreans because the koreans have been gaining market share for the past 10 years while GM has been losing market share in that same time frame in the US."
Hyundai has been taking sales from a lot of people. Sure Toyota has gained share in that same period but I'm sure many of Hyundai's customers would've been driving a Toyota as their second choice. Whomever is on top has the most to lose in a competitive market. when VW or Mitsubishi loses share its not news because they have such a small share to begin with. When you are GM there is a lot of share to surrender and you suffer the most when the number of models on the market increases steadily. The imports are not increasing share with a constant number of models, they are increasing share by constantly entering new segments and expanding their offerings. If Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. didnt make larger pickups and SUVs and were care companies only like back in the day GM and Ford's share would be subtsantially higher. There are only 3 domestics (kind of) and 7 major foreign automakers in the US market. The big 3 still command over 50% of the market even though they have less brands and models than their foreign based competitors.