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We have the best politicians money can buy, everyone's money except the working stiffs' money.
Agree pal. Sad isn't it.
I'm not sure what you do for a living. However most folks are affected by what one person gets paid to do a certain job. It affects how there boss/company pays them. If union wages and benefits take a sharp decline then everyone else at some point will get a "correction" in wages and benefits in their place of employement.
The problem is the unions don't have a true or real place to contribute money too. Some democrats are true supporters of unions nd others "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk"
Bottom line is we need a new party that will give a voice for average working people and level the playing field for American buisness so they don't have to export jobs to stay in buisness.
I'm sure deep down that GM, Ford, Chrysler would rather keep buisnes here in the states, then export some operations overseas.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Per the article fuel efficiency comes in near the tail end of importance. Most important is purchase price, then specific make and model and then safety features ties with Performance for third. So for GM to get it's mojo back it has to make sure that it gets the purchase price down, then convince buyers that GM is a brand they want and last make sure the safety features are there with competitive performance. But the last two are pretty minor compared to the first two. The biggest hurdle GM has is changing the attitudes of 50% of the public that it is a good make to buy.
It also says that the profitable SUV's will keep selling since the fuel efficiency is so unimportant. Guess that explains why the SUV's keep selling so well.
It seems like more people fall into one of two categories -2) a highly trained, well paid profession or 2) do you want fries with that? That is why unions have lost so much clout.
I think the soul of America was a hard-working middle-class of people who stayed married and raised solid children. That may be going away.
Personally, I have no complaints. I am a retired civil servant living in the Virginia suburbs of Washington D.C. now making money as a contractor for the government. About the only thing I ever produced that was useful was statistics like monthly housing starts, sales, etc. that you hear on TV occasionally. However, I do have a lot of compassion for what is happening in 'real' America.
Gsemike - don't you know that the "next" GM products are always going to be home runs?!
"General Motors Corp.(GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) needs to maintain its current North American brands despite pressure to shed some as part of a broader restructuring, a top executive said on Friday."
"Mark LaNeve [GM VP] said Saab had badly underperformed Ford Motor Co.'s (F.N: Quote, Profile, Research) Volvo division, another Scandinavian brand, because Volvo has maintained a sharper consumer identification with safety, while the Saab message was more muddled."
GM advertises one of its Saab rebadges as "born from jets!".
My prediction: GM will shed some divisions, but it will be in 2 years during bankruptcy!
A Wall Street Journal article several months ago described the demographic differences when it came to high ticket purchases in a variety of products - from vacations to houses to cars.
Unfortunately, I didn't clip the WSJ article, but I do recall several demographic statistics that came out of the research. The average income and net worth of certain car model buyers were listed (I'm doing this from memory, so I may be slightly off, but not by much):
Cadillac (all models): Ave age 58, Ave income $80k, Ave net worth $350k
Chevy Corvette: Ave age 43, Ave income $100k, Ave net worth $350k.
Porsche Boxster: Ave age 39, Ave income $200k, Ave net worth $1mm.
BMW M5: Ave Age 48, Ave income $500k, Ave net worth $4mm
Ferrari 360: Ave Age 50, Ave income $1mm+, Ave net worth $15mm+
The ONLY American made car which had a buyer with an average net worth over $500k was the Hummer H1.
The liklihood of a prospective BMW M5 buyer cross shopping a Cadillac, at least today, is about the same as me buying a Lear Jet.
At some point somethings gotta give. We can't keep on this path because who'd going to buy the products like cars to keep the wheels turning ????? It sure won't be the guy asking you if you want fries with that. :sick:
Rocky
Chevy Corvette: Ave age 43, Ave income $100k, Ave net worth $350k.
Porsche Boxster: Ave age 39, Ave income $200k, Ave net worth $1mm.
BMW M5: Ave Age 48, Ave income $500k, Ave net worth $4mm
Ferrari 360: Ave Age 50, Ave income $1mm+, Ave net worth $15mm+
I agree with your posting overall but your data is a bit misleading. You compare all of Cadillac, which starts with a vehicle just over $30k to a specific BMW model that starts at over $80K. Of course there are different buyer demographics. Cadillac has a LOT of older, retired buyers who have "made it" and believe Cadillac is the way to reward themselves. BMW has a much younger crowd. The issue what will happen in 30 years when those BMW buyers will be buying in their retirement. Unless something changes teh US mind set they will not be buying Cadillacs.
To be fair you should compare the XLR buyers to the M5 buyers. Now that data may not be available to the public but the income and net worth are a whole lot closer to each other.
The Corvette and Porsche are a much better comparison. Age difference is minimal. But Corvette is a car with an American heritage that has a different attitude than a Porsche. Cross shopping between the two does happen but is not a big factor. They both have their own buyers psychographics.
Bottom line is that Cadillac is getting cross shopping with BMW. The V series have got some sales from BMW.
Ferrari is so far out there it is in a different league than anything but Lamborghini.
Wouldn't you agree that alot of millionaires would buy a Cadillac over a expensive Benz or BMW because they are cheaper ????? How did millionaires ( self-made) become millionaires ?????
Most "self-made" millionaires, I've met or known including members in my family ate garbage and wore rags in the beginning. This type of millionaire perhaps will be more cautious of how he spends his money versus one who inherited it.
I'm basing this also off of the millionaire people both young and old that live in our town. The majority own or drive a Cadillac SUV, EXT, Car.
Rocky
BMW (all models): Ave age 39, Ave income $150k, ave net worth $750k.
Which is the fairer comparison to Cadillac, but the BMW figures are skewed heavily to the 3 series. The 5 series would be a better comparison, but I don't think those were broken out.
What I also find interesting is that, notwithstanding Cadillac's extensive advertising campaign and introduction of new models designed to appeal to a younger, more professional buyer, the average age of actual purchasers in 2005 was only 1-2 years less than in 1995. And the net worth of purchasers, in inflation adjusted dollars, went down slightly.
I am not giving my opinions on any of these stats, I just find demographic trends interesting. And, whether it's cars or cruises, they generally change relatively gradually.
By the way, Lear Jet (personal, not corporate purchase): Average age 50, average income $10mm+ average net worth $200mm+. Looks like I won't be buying a Cadillac or a Lear Jet, anytime soon.
Most "self-made" millionaires, I've met or known including members in my family ate garbage and wore rags in the beginning. This type of millionaire perhaps will be more cautious of how he spends his money versus one who inherited it.
No, it is more of a matter of where they live. Out in California they will buy BMW's. Here in the midwest they will buy Cadillacs. It is changing here. I live in a county that I think is the richest or close to it in the US. Lots of Europe built cars. Cadillac has not been making relevent cars for the new rich/young high income. BUT I see a lot of CTS's and STS's around now so things are changing.
Rocky
What's "cheap"? A Cadillac that costs less than a BMW/Mercedes up front, but depreciates considerably more over 3-4 years? If you are going to drive a car into the ground, a Honda/Nissan/Toyota is likely the cheapest alternative. If you are going to trade every 3-4 years, a BMW 5-series will cost you a lot less than the comparably priced Cadillac.
One of my business associates bought a new Ferrari 360 in 2001 for $140,000 after selling his company. He drove it for 3 years and 15,000 miles and sold it for $165,000. And I thought I was doing well with my 2002 Honda S2000, which I bought new for $32,000 in late 2001, drove for 2.5 years and 18,000 miles and sold for $23,200.
I actually very frivolously and very briefly considered the Ferrari this last time. But it couldn't carry my kids, shouldn't be driven every day, and invited envious others to egg my house. But, financially, if you can afford the initial $190k price of admission for a 430, it's one of the "cheapest" automotive thrills you can buy for a 2-3 year holding period. As a matter of fact, you should come out ahead, not counting the time value of tying up your money.
Good thing for Ferrari that I passed too, I would have singlehandedly brought down their average income and net worth figures considerably.
I agree with the basis of your point. One thing to consider is these are just averages.
Someone who has amassed a net worth of a million + over time by being shrewd and managing their money well probably would be more likely to buy a Cadillac (or other modest priced luxury car). I'd guess as net worth climbs into the multiple millions, Mercedes & BMWs become more prominant.
I'm basing this also off of the millionaire people both young and old that live in our town. The majority own or drive a Cadillac SUV, EXT, Car.
I don't know how you get info on whether someone is a millionaire or not, but just because they drive a Cadillac SUV doesn't mean they have money.
I used to sell boats and I can't tell you how many times someone would by a $150k+ boat with hardly a down payment and I'd have to try 3+ banks to get him/her financed due to horrible debt to equity issues and an income that was nowhere near $150k. They just wanted something to make them look cool at "party cove". Cars/houses etc. are no different.
I will agree that if you trade often, then perhaps a BMW will cost less, but leasing is probably a better choice for short term ownership.
Cadillac did not have a sports sedan in production in 2003 that compares with the 5 series, however, the CTS is about $20,000 for the 2003 models. The 3-series from 2003 ranges from $21,000 to $25,000 depending on whether it is the 325 or 330. I would say that the 2003 CTS with the Opel V6 was perhaps not really a BMW 330, but perhaps a bit more than the 325. The new costs for the BMW's depend to a large extent on the level of optional equipment, as did the new cost of the CTS.
I think that shrewd rich people buy Lexus not Cadillac. Lexus has a much better image and reputation for retaining value and reliability then Cadillac.
Many luxury cars are sold to small buissness owners who can write them off as company cars. All of these cars are leased due to tax reasons. It would be interesting to see what the lease payment is on a BMW 540 vs Cadillac STS. I think that lease payments are a better way to compare luxury cars just because so many of them are leased and not purchased.
The other advantage of leasing is that you only keep the car for 3 years. This way you don't fall into the trap of driving an 'old' style luxury car after a redesign. Just look at how unfashionable 1995-2001 BMW 740's look now because the new model is out. The same thing will happen to current Mercedes S-Class when the new one comes out. Oh keeping up with the Joneses is hard work :P
Another option is something like a Porsche 968 Cabriolet. ~15-20K is common, and especially if you get the rarer champaigne color, it's going to go up in value.
Name me one car for $20K that will be more fun, look better, or drive better than that 968
Oh - me? I currently drive a 67 Mercedes. Good no-deprecitaion daily commuter. Paid a whopping $3K for it, put $2K into it, and it drives like new. Nothing to break, either. No smog, no computers, no plastic.
Loren
Oh really??? You ,Waggoner and Lutz may believe that.Waggoner and Lutz Have to say that. What's your excuse? Stats can be twisted and manipulated hundreds of ways , so are all the "survey results" that GM likes to put up in their advertising. Cadillac will never, ever be anything more than a glorified Buick , which is a glorified Chevy. Just because somebody says they shopped the BMW and bought the Cadillac is VERY misleading. The vast majority of buyers have a pretty good idea what they want and they look at other models not to compare , but to confirm that they are making the best choice. All manufactures know that if a customer is generally satisfied they don't switch brands.Wheather it be soap, or soup, or vehicles. How many dis-satisfied BMW drivers does your statistics show? A very small number, I'd suggest. To assume that someone with income sufficient to buy a BMW, would leave to take a chance on a GM product is very hard to believe, even with BMW's goofy new styling and the stupid "i" drive! Bill C.
Guess that means BMW is just a glorified Audi which is just a glorified VW--they're all just German brand cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Cadillac has its own rear-wheel-drive platform (Sigma, used by the CTS, STS, SRX and XLR), and the Northstar V-8 is a Cadillac creation. Cadillacs are more distinguished from their lesser GM brethern than at any time since the mid-1970s.
"BMW is to Audi what Cadillac is to Chevy", you say? Your "logic" could just as well say"Accord is to Camry is to Malibu?
They are all made in the USA! I can't follow this,sorry.
Next, Cadillac's stand alone rear drive platford will not stand alone. GM will soon enough use it to cross pollenate and bring out other rear drive vehicles under other names.They have to, they don't have any cash. In the past they would use one platform for all brands more or less. they did this to save cash ,so they could throw money at Fiat and other failures. Now , they have no money, no credit, mounting debt,and no more GMAC ownership.
There has been very little(if any) payback for the $500 million or so they have spent to bring Cadillac back to the so called "standard of excellance."(not even close) Much of Cadillac's so called success is due to re-badged GMC truck product, there's nothing to show Cadillac has been making conquest sales of former BMW or Mercedes owners. Using GM logic , they have done quite well selling GMC/Chevy trucks re badged as Cadillacs. What's the old saying "there's one born every minute"? Lets hope so, for the sake of Cadillac fans everywhere.
Having been in the service bays of all three brands, my personal experience is Cadillac has no business claiming anything they do is in any way superior to either BMW or Mercedes. Imidazol97: Just what componets are BMW and Audi sharing? I wasn't aware of any German law that says all German vehicle manufacturers must all be owned by one single corporation? Enlighten me further,please. Bill C.
Have you ever said anything good about GM? or any of the cars? It's constant criticism based on a standard of some car which you like and are familiar with therefore any different car is "jang."
I've driven GM cars and Fords and Accords and Camrys. They vary and all have plastic interiors (early Fords didn't). That's usually a baseless criticism of the GM-haters.
Somehow you seem touchy that someone said Cadillac is keeping people from buying BMWs or Mercedes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Loren
I have owned enough GM to have witness the decline and to have been a victim (more than once) of GM's lackluster attitude towards their customers.
Imidazol97: You never answered my question, YOU said all German cars were alike, I asked for an example of shared componets between BMW and VW. I'm still waiting. I'm more than able to list parts common to Cadillac,Chevy & GMC , and that was my point. I'm off to Chicago, God willing , I'll be back in 2 weeks to P/O all the GM loyalists? A lot can happen in two weeks. Don't go Quail hunting with Dick Cheney! Bill C.
-loren
They had a section of track that was used to test the rough-road ride of the cars. Needless to say the Mercedes S320 and Lexus LS400 hopped over the bumps with no sweat and very little intrusion into the cabin. The Lexus was the quietest and the softest, but the Benz treated those bumps with downright indifference when it came to not letting them disturb the ride. The Legend did ok, but the Olds completely crashed and rattled over the bumps. The Olds rep riding in the car with us was embarrassed to the point of being completely silent.
This goes back to what I think GM's biggest problem is their mouth. They always make these tall, specious claims and when you really examine them they don't hold water. My favorite one is when they say they have the “largest” engine in the class, but that same engine usually has less power than the smaller engines in the class.
There is no way GM could have honestly thought the 1995 Aurora was a solid as the W124 E-Class. They may have duplicated the chassis rigidity in the lab, but once the Aurora showed up with frameless doors that rattled any perception of solidity was lost.
M
(which haven't been released yet) can't or won't compete with Mercedes Benz or BMW ????
Because we know nothing for sure about either vehicle. You saying they'll beat BMW/Mercedes is just as much of a guess (more like a wish) as everyone else's comments.
BTW-The 2006 STS-V held it own against the CLS55-AMG. I guess if you already have you mine made up
And the STS-V got smoked by the CLS55 in Motor Trend the same month. Automobile has also stated that STS-V doesn't have it to really compete with the European, which may be a little harsh, but you get the idea. The STS-V beat the CLS55 at C&D by having a lower price and a bigger back seat from what I remember. Kinda silly to be considering the prices of all three cars. Need a bigger back seat and the same performance, the E55 is right there.
M
What suprised me is GMs problems started appearing in the pages of Fortune in 1958. So the problems GM has certainly aren't new, but never as dire as they are now.
This summer will be very interesting . I wonder if the UAW will finally realize that you "Don't let water out of a sinking boat by drilling a few more large holes in the bottom". We will see. As for the Golden Age of the American Auto industry I think it is a thing of the past. We will be much smaller and I doubt will ever see the support of the American buying public we saw 3-4 decades ago.
Now before someone starts ranting about off shore contracts we have ourselves to blame. What ever happened to the Industrial Arts programs in high school ? The VOTECH
cirriculums that enabled people to make a living without a 4 year college degree ? We answered that by making entitlement of a college degree a mantra for those who shouldn't even be there. So what is that worth lately ? Hell, I can remember a tool and die program that would choke this current generation. You fought to get in....and everybody did not make it thru with "wink-wink" grades.
The stiffness of a body design is only a part of the refinement process. Simply making a stiff body does not make it more refined in terms of NVH in normal driving. My 2002 Seville is very quiet, and with framed windows on the doors, there is much less wind noise than the Aurora had with frameless windows. The Aurora looks were better though if you only look at the door styling.
XLR uses the Corvette platform, not Sigma.
Rocky
Most are big farmers or in agriculture buiz. The farmers own thousands of acres and there wives and them own and drive Cadillac Cars or SUV. My FIL being part of the farming community knows these individuals personally. he drives a Vette instead of a Cadillac on his days away from the farm.
Rocky
If they DON'T go BK and things are worked out with
the union folks.........I'M BUYING !!!!!!!!
Rocky
Rocky
If this doesn't cause a strike I will be suprised !!!!!!!!
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060211/AUTO01/602110310/1148- /AUTO01
GM's gonna have to do something. The negotiations are going to be war.
The article states this quote. What talent are they retaining? Maybe they should double what they offer these guys and recruit from some other companies... Maybe some MBAs so they know how to run a business???
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The SRX sport model should offer the supercharged engine as an option.