General Motors discussions

fintail

Yet they offer no proof of the talent of these executives. What a bunch of sick lies. If there is a hell, these people will burn.

This country needs a massive general strike against executive compensation...if not much harsher measures...

mirth

First of all, it's Black Friday because they have until the end of the week. Second of all, it's a "soft" date so my prediction is nothing will happen and they'll extend the date again.

torque_r

Pontiac is getting a coupe based on the Cobalt SS, and loosing its minivan offering. I think that's a step in the right direction.

carlisimo

The current rumor is that Pontiac will simply get a rebadged and re-grilled Cobalt. As a "temporary measure."

Rumor also has it that there won't be another GTO, but that seems to change every couple of months. That would leave the G6 and Solstice to carry the brand (everything else being a rebadge). The G6 isn't particularly unique, and when the Sky comes out, neither will the Solstice.

If Pontiac gets a Firebird, but Chevy gets a Camaro, that won't be a unique model for Pontiac either.

What's the point?

fintail

Pontiac makes a minivan?

Oh yeah

sls002

Motor Trend sort of implied that the Camaro would replace the GTO. The impression was that the midsize RWD platform was still alive, but only for smaller vehicles. The plans were for the Zeta platform to be both midsize as well as large size vehicles.

As GM downsizes, perhaps Buick and Pontiac will become specialty models, like the Solstice. But I think that GM is rethinking the whole lineup and will try to keep future plans hidden for as long as possible. At present Chevy is doing well, and Cadillac as a premium line is probably doing well enough. Sales at Chevy have held steady from 1999 to present at about 2.6 million annually.

torque_r

"Pontiac makes a minivan?

Oh yeah"

And in case you haven't noticed, so do Buick and Saturn.

lemko

Would that Pontiac be the Pursuit?

sls002

I think that GM makes the minivan and puts a different grill on depending who ordered one. They all look the same except for the grill. Worse, the interior is very nearly the same, Buick gets some woody looking trim (probably plastic).

carlisimo

"Motor Trend sort of implied that the Camaro would replace the GTO"

Yeah that looks like the case, but that's the worst possible thing that could happen to Pontiac.

bumpy

Pontiac is getting a coupe based on the Cobalt SS

If the smart GM designs it, we'll get a car that shares nothing except the greenhouse with the Cobalt coupe (new front and back ends, fenders and doors) and a 2.4 Ecotec and 2.8HF V6 as the engine options to go fight the tC's, Si's and Tiburons of the world.

If the lame GM designs it, we'll get a direct copy of the Cobalt SS with nose and trunklid from the Canadian-market Pursuit, replacing one entry in GM's Dealer Welfare Program with another.

massdriver1

IMO, one of GM's problems is that they're still too bloated. Even if they design something competetive, they hang on to it forever, whilst their competition redesigns three or four times.
I know it's a radical thought, but I think GM needs to get rid of Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, and GMC.
There's just too many brands, and they aren't all that well defined any more. All their Japanese competitors have two divisions (or one) and this Is what GM needs to do.
Chevrolet could then have the broad appeal it does now, without internal competition, and Cadillac would be the luxury division.
Chevy would compete with Toyota, and hopefully start taking quality seriously. But they should also be more like Mazda or Nissan , creating more sporty and inspirational designs.
Cadillac should be aggressively chasing BMW. They have a good product lineup now, just keep improving them, especially the interiors.
Back at Chevy, they could get the best designs GM has in their stable now. The Solstice is a keeper. If the Aura is as good as they say, that dhould be the camcord fighter,replacing the Malibu. Impala could go upscale a bit, replacing the Lucerne in the GM lineup and competer with cars like Avalon and Maxima. redesign Cobalt to compete with Civic and Mazda 3 (the current small-car king IMO).
The HHR is a keeper, just give it more power and refinement. Bring back the Camaro. And finally, introduce a line of rear-drivers, like Dodge did. A sedan (Bel-Air perhaps?) a touring coupe (what the Monte Carlo should be), and maybe even a cool wagon(nomad). They could even bring back the El-Camino , and lose the SSR.
Get serious with the minivan, and there you have it. They're already working on the new full sixze trucks/SUVs, which have always been their strong suit. And of course the Corvette stays.
This would be a complete, and exciting lineup- something for everyone . Chevy would have more models, but GM would have far less. Lean and mean is where they need to be.

iluvmysephia1

the camera pans over to a large, ocean-going shark with large teeth ready to bite down hard. Come on, guys, get into it and get it done.

GM and Ford must crumble down, way down, way, way, way, down. Smaller. Much smaller. More competitive. Smarter. Smaller. Now, GM. Not tomorrow. Now.

Or, go ahead and drag it out. The stupid UAW won't let it happen easily, will they? They must drain you for all you're worth...I...I mean they must preserve the fantasy that they are really helping you to create good cars for the masses. Excuse me while I continue to ponder the Super Bowl that was taken away from Seattle, given to Pittsburgh and force myself to ponder this little automotive issue that seems to be panting on there in the beautiful midwest.

Something must be done, right GM? Anybody smart enough to bite in and get it done? I don't think so. :surprise:

jae5

Thanks for posting Rock. But in reality, I wasn't surprised they were going to get the bonuses, were you?

Same thing happened where I used to work a few years ago. The company held up the so-called severance packages of the laid-off, CEO stated he was going to court to get the packages back, how he was SOOOOO sorry that had happened, that it was bad enough we where in BK. Then not an hour after the court appearance the whole company, not just our facility but ALL facilities, found out that he gave himself a raise AND big bonus, and huge bonuses to those execs that stayed. Pulled the same "hard to keep good exec w/o compensating them" crap-o-la!! Yet it was their "knowledge" that took us into BK.

This one's getting ugly fast!!

jae5

In terms of GM itself, I think York is going to help the situation somewhat. He seems to understand that it can't all be on the rank-and-file; management made the bad judgments & decisions, now they have to suffer the consequences. I hope he is a good house-cleaner and not all hype like Putz, I mean Lutz.

But for GM and Delphi I think they're going to need a Carlos Ghosn-type to aid in this house-cleaning. I'm not sure York is going to be able to do it alone. Miller is not the guy for Delphi, as he is nothing more than a BK man, loves bankruptcy and loves to have it his way a-la Burger King.

And right now with the granting of the bonuses @ Delphi, union or not, the employees have just gotten slapped in the face. Basically the judge rewarded them for driving the company into the ground. At least the union gives them a leg to stand on.

massdriver1

Almost forgot about the rest of the trucks/SUVs. The Colorado is about due for a redesign. although not that old, most everyone else has redesigned their midsizers since.
They also need two midsize SUVs, a truck based one and a unibody, muck like Toyota has the 4runner and Highlander.
The Trailblazer is due for a refresh, and just make one size. The extended version the have now is un-proportionate and un-necessary.
For the "crossover" one, they could use the Buick Enclave as their new SUV. It is quite stylish, and should compete well with Highlander and others if done right.
And finally, they need a small. rugged, no frills SUV to go after the young males that like the off road appearance and ability of old school utes. Toyota is bringing out the FJ, Dodge with the Nitro. If priced right, this would sell well, and they could even make a two door (remember those/)
That's at least my (lenghty) opinion on what they should do.

62vetteefp

OK, where will the 1 billion come from to buy out all the non Chevy and Cadillac dealers?

Since you are cutting GM volume by about half how will you pay for all the union guys that will be put in job banks?

How will you pay for all the health care and pension benefits for all the retirees now that you have lost 1/2 of the revenue that you were bringing in? Yes GM lost money last year but it was paying it's bills. Now the revenue is gone and they cannot meet their obligations.

How will you pay for all the plant related costs after shutting down half the plants? Sure some can be sold.

Just cutting the size of GM will be tough. Too many fixed costs that loss of revenue would instantly put you in bankruptcy. Once you are in bankruptcy sales will plummet and then you will have to cut even further. GM still sells about 25% of the vehicles in this country. Doing what you say will reduce it to 10% and all those retirees will be on welfare, you will have massive unemployment.

the above is my opinion.

m1miata

Are you assuming that all the retired people from GM have no personal savings, and no social security check? Did they not make double or greater than the average person working say in a hardware store, or department store, and such? You can buy Blue Cross Insurance, and those which are older are covered by the government medical. Lot's of people not receiving a check each month from GM are not on welfare. Yes, we all fully understand how those promised a pension after years with a company will feel about this possible loss of income. It may indeed have a negative impact on the economy, but GM will have to be a smaller company, at least in North America, and may have to go into bankruptcy. Best bet for selling their current line of cars is in China. In the USA, I would say many of the cars for the American market are not going to make it. Simply put, Korea, Japan, and even Ford can do a better job on the average car. GM Corvette, Cadillac, and GMC trucks may be the best bet to survive. And Caddy line needs something more than what I can see. The STS is just not worth that much more than the CTS, which is a car which quickly gets too pricey as well. The CTS should be closer priced to the Chrysler 300.

IMHO, Loren

imidazol97

How does the impact of just putting GM into bankruptcy compare to Chrysler's position in the 70s? Are the people who just want to flip off closing that much of a part of the economy underestimating the impact? Or am I over estimating?

george35

I am concerned that there may be APPROACHING a point of no Return.It is VERY CLOSE. Even if the management were to give up ALL their pay it would not be enough. Do the math. The pay these guys get is nothing compared to the liability the corporation has with non-working employees with an incredible sense of entitlements.You could disenfranchise ALL salaried workers and that may get you a year at best. The bloated company would die in its own excess capacity. Like it or not the UAW will have to change...or cease to be the voice of the Auto worker. If you don't believe that look at what it takes to operate our current production on a DAILY basis. Don't believe that GM could go bankrupt ? I think you either very slow or incredibly naive. THE WORLD HAS CHANGED !

imidazol97

>Don't believe that GM could go bankrupt ?

Did I say I didn't believe they could go bankrupt? No. I asked the impact of that possibility wanting a real, unbiased opinion.

rockylee

Perhaps the self driving car like the Opel Vectra/Saturn Aura could get trickled down to the Camaro or new Firebird ????? Perhaps the
(Knight Industry's Two-Thousand) K.I.T.T. -isn't a unrealistic concept of the not to distant future.

Rocky

rockylee

I wasn't suprised pal. It's a corporate world like fintail, says for Corporate Cowards in suits.
The workers always take it in the rear in todays world for managements mistakes. I guess people are going to blame my UAW father who wants nothing more than a decent job and busts his butt for the company each day making the finest Fuel Injectors in the world.

Rocky

ubbermotor

GM's problems are not due product or sales. They still control more than a quarter of the US market. They sell twice what Toyota corp sells in the US. The difference in Toyota actually makes a profit.

rockylee

Also how bout the Buick Enclave ???

Rocky

rockylee

Perhaps that's because Toyota doesn't have CEO's taking more than it's fair share. Look at the management structure of Toyota too. They aren't balloned with middle and upper management and have a vision of long-term success vs. make a "buck today" and worry about the future tommorow. These are just a few reasons why Toyota makes a profit along with U.S. government help.

Rocky

m1miata

And we will all be flying those automated air planes too !
Automated accident avoidance is also a likely no starter.
I may consider using the stability control on a car for the
daily driving, if so equipped, though I have my doubts. Yeah,
I know Porsche has it and it works.

Oh yeah, the original question here on this forum is GM styling
in 2006 bringing saving GM. Wow, if that is what it takes, and
this is the year, then turn out the lights, the party is over. Well
I guess there are a few bright spots, as in some people see a
few things to be excited about. Personally, the CTS is a bit
interesting, and the Solstice is pretty good. The CTS doesn't
have telescopic steering and perhaps not the best seating and
should not use the base engine they do, but style on the outside
is OK. The Solstice is a convertible two seater, so while it looking
OK, it won't save GM. The G6 is alright, the coupe almost as good
looking as the Honda Coupe, and Cobalt is a fair econo car. The
refresh on the DTS comes off pretty good, though most wise
people buy them used in a years time for $17k to 20K less than
new. If 2006 is the year styling saves GM, they are in trouble.
Fewer, more interesting cars, new engines and longer warranties,
all would help. That is not in store for '06.
-Loren
P.S. the new Impala refresh job ain't so bad, as there are those in
need of a larger Accord, built by GM, and I suppose considering it has
a V6 a fair price once discounted. Problem is resale eating into any
saved up front. And the age old question, which is the best car?

rockylee

Loren the Lucerne like all Buicks has a 4 yr. 50K bumper to bumper. I do agree with you it needs to be better. I think a redesigned 2007 CTS will be the GM car that you like alot.

Rocky

m1miata

CEO salaries are the least of GM's woes at the moment, though symbolically, the CEO should have taken a larger cut in wage.

Question about your post: What are you referring to when speaking of a U.S. government help for Toyota? The tax break on hybrids? That is more of a help to the more well off people which like this new status symbol toy of the future. Yes, I know the technology works. And now the elite get to use the car pool lanes, oh just great for them.

Loren

rockylee

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060214/AUTO01/602140362/1148-

Rocky

rockylee

Free Taxes both state, federal, local for building the plants here in the states. Yes tax breaks on foreign hybrids, and yes I'm peeved about the yuppies getting their own lane because they drive a small hybrid. That in itself makes me wanna run em' of the road. :P
Yes I'm :mad: at the direction this country is taking and venting my frustration !!!!!! Most of us can't afford to own a hybrid to drive to work. It costs too much to have as an extra vehicle and to most it can't replace their SUV if they have kids.

Rocky

m1miata

CTS for 2007 would be an extraordinary value with a new body style, standard features, like telescopic steering columns, which are found on rather inexpensive cars, like a Mazda3 or Jetta, and last but not least, the 3.6V6 engine as standard equipment for under $30k. The Chrysler 300 has the touring for around $27K or is it $28K, so it can be done. The CTS is a lighter car, and thus if equal or better than the 300, would be something I would consider. OK, maybe one used. Personally, I prefer to see what happens with new models before jumping in, though the Stealth I had was so much fun being really new, and exciting for 1991.

I did buy one GM in the luxury class - the Olds98 Regency. Oh my, that was a costly mistake. May never buy the luxo class again as new, and will keep an eye on the health of GM, and GM resale before buying. I am pretty sure the car itself may be pretty neat. The current one is interesting. Being so base though, it is not a real bargain. Used CTS is more impressive than the DeVilles, so that is encouraging. Next step, is to erase memories of '70's and 80's GM build quality. If Consumer Reports data is correct, somewhere around 2002, things got better with GM cars overall. -Loren

plekto

I'd still rather just buy a nice used S500 for $20K and pocket a large wad of money. "Near luxury" isn't real luxury, and paying over 30K for any non-collectable car is throwing money away.

rockylee

Well I will probably dive in on a new 07' CTS-V or a G8. I currently am looking for a good used Aurora 4.0 or GM small SUV like a trailblazer. I tend to like to buy a used car that is 4-6 yrs. old. I will however buy a new vehicle and the G8 and CTS sure look promising from what some are saying on other sites.

Rocky

carlisimo

People who blame your father are like people who blame Corolla buyers.

rockylee

Oh a Big Body S500 ????? I heard they are very expensive for maintence. If I was going to buy a used foreign car it would be a BMW M3 sedan like a 97-99. They are harder than heck to find one that is in mint condition.

Rocky

rockylee

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement ??? Can you please explain ?

Thanx Pal,

Rocky

tlong

I think a redesigned 2007 CTS will be the GM car that you like alot.

Yup! The next model is always going to be a home run!

tlong

Most of us can't afford to own a hybrid to drive to work. It costs too much to have as an extra vehicle and to most it can't replace their SUV if they have kids.

First, you can get hybrids in the mid $20s. Much cheaper than many SUVs.

Second, we all grew up without SUVs. Why must we have them now?

We had station wagons, those still exist.
We had bigger sedans, those exist too.

If you really must have lots of room, buy a minivan. They get better mileage than SUVs, ride better, and are more versatile.

We are all spoiled and ruining the world's fossil fuel supply through our selfishness. And we will get what we deserve.

And our Big 2.5 manufacturers are the biggest part of the problem. Want the highest fleet average mpg? Buy a Honda.

carlisimo

Sorry, it wasn't something I thought through. Just a gut reaction I should've kept to myself.

People who blame the UAW for what's happened to GM are seeing a very small part of the big picture. Poor construction was sometimes part of the problem with American cars, but it's as much a process and management problem as it is a line worker problem. Design issues contributed to difficult construction, and also to vehicular mediocrity in general. Middle managers didn't communicate and coordinate, and upper managers didn't make the right big decisions. You can't blame any one group.

Nor can you primarily blame consumers, which is something I've seen on these boards lately. Like workers accepting good deals and managers taking bonuses, they're trying to get the best they can get in a safe, predictable way.

The simplification some people do - scapegoating, basically - is stupid. I'm sure you'd agree.

rockylee

The next CTS will be a homerun. I know you can go through GM's past and promises. Currently you can make fun of them. The very near future they will deliver, because they have no other choice to survive. It's either build the best possible car for the money or die. I will put my bet on them building a much better car and deliver on the future promises.

First, you can get hybrids in the mid $20s. Much cheaper than many SUVs.

Yeah the price isn't that bad, but the room is the problem.

Second, we all grew up without SUVs. Why must we have them now?

Well I'm 27 and yes my parents had a K5 Blazer which is a SUV.

We had station wagons, those still exist.
We had bigger sedans, those exist too.

You don't see very many station wagons anymore. I think they are UGLY so they won't work for me. I do like biger sedans but they aren't made for the country where I live and the amount of snow we can sometimes get. A hybrid in my family would only work as a work car.

If you really must have lots of room, buy a minivan. They get better mileage than SUVs, ride better, and are more versatile

I'd rather own a wagon since a minivan is absolutely ugly, tipsy, and proven unsafe in crash tests. I am a anti-minivan advocate.

We are all spoiled and ruining the world's fossil fuel supply through our selfishness. And we will get what we deserve.

Here in Texas can you explain why after 20 years their is NEW oil in the wells that were drilled ???? Fossil fuels theory is one of the biggest jokes in human history. Oil is a renewable energy source, based on it's not made from dead dinosaurs, but rather through a mixture of methane gas and the earths crust. We have oil wells around here that have brand new replaced oil in them.

And our Big 2.5 manufacturers are the biggest part of the problem. Want the highest fleet average mpg? Buy a Honda.

I owned a Honda and it was the "worst expierence" I have ever dealt with in my life. I'll pass on that brand. I guess my best bet would be to wait for the Big 2.5's hybrids to come out. They seem to have the technology edge of the Asians like Honda. :P

Rocky

P.S. Thanks for the advice, but I'll stick with a SUV :shades:

rockylee

I agree. I being a person who built car interior parts at Johnson Controls sometimes disagreed with the quality grade of the product being made into a part. Chrysler had the worst quality plastic of the Big 3. Its the company's mamagement call on the grade of material being used. Sometimes using a lsser quality plastic will make a otherwise nice well made vehicle look cheap to the consumer. Spending a few more cents might of made a huge difference to the touch and feel by the consumer. Carlisimo, seriously it sometimes came down to a matter of pennies. I do hope both sides can work something out, but when Delphi executives got paid bounus money, it sure makes the UAW workers mad. I guess you got to look at it from their perspective also. Here they see a millionaire get paid another big bonus, while they are asked to see their house and cut their expense and cost of living more than half. This isn't exactly lead by example.

EX: My dads Delphi plant where they make Fuel Injectors. Toyota wouldn't buy the Multec 2 design because it cost $12 dollar. Delphi makes the injectors for 0.06 cents a piece. Delphi makes a cheaper injector called Multec 3 which can be made for 0.04 cents and charges Hyundai approx. $8 dollars. Toyota wanted the Multec 2 at Multec 3 price. Delphi told them no. Multec 3 is used in a variety of applications such as Mercury engines, Hyundai, off the top of my head. Multec 2 is the superior injector until Delphi's new direct injection system gets into full swing used by GM.

Bottom Line:
We all want to make a fair salary for the work being done. It's when some take more then they might deserve is when a fight can break out.

Rocky

62vetteefp

And our Big 2.5 manufacturers are the biggest part of the problem. Want the highest fleet average mpg? Buy a Honda.

But Honda does not build a vehicle that meets my needs. Need a large truck that can carry my family and the stuff. tht is why SUV's do so well. Today in the kid drop off line there were 20 vehicles. Primarily mid to large SUV's and minivans. Not one car. Cars do not make it for families today.

sls002

To some extent minivans took over the station wagon market. And to the extent that the minivans fell short, the SUV filled in. I think that the SUV's give some people a better view of the road that they like. I also think that SUVs are in "style" and that is the big reason. Some actually need an SUV for towing, but most people do not.

andre1969

Second, we all grew up without SUVs. Why must we have them now?

By and large, the typical SUV of days gone by was a 2-door. The 4-door SUV is a relatively recent phenomenon. They're much more practical and civilized these days, while still retaining their tough, trucky attitude, so they're just more broadly appealing.

Now there have been 4-door SUVs since the dawn of time, but they just weren't widely available. Chevy has been making the Suburban since something like 1935, and truthfully, back then there wasn't a whole lot of difference between a car and a truck in the first place.

International had the Travelall since God only knows when, as well. I think the Scout was always a 2-door, though. And Jeep had that thing that ultimately became the Wagoneer. And when they came out with the little 4-door Cherokee around 1984, they really set the stage for things to come.

For the most part though, these old SUVs were meant mainly for off-roading or towing heavy loads. They really weren't meant for passenger vehicles, which would be their primary purpose once CAFE and the minivan pretty much killed the traditional wagon, and then the minivan took on that mommy image.

sls002

GM's announcement yesterday suggests that the next generation CTS will either be a late 2007 model, like this years Lucerne, or an early 2008 model about a year from now.

62vetteefp

I also think that SUVs are in "style" and that is the big reason

People do not get it. Yes SUV's are "in style" but that is because they do everything they want and need EXCEPT good gas mileage and a low MSRP. So those that can afford them and need them, buy them. We fill our trucks up all the time with people and stuff. I actually drive a minivan and it also does pretty much what we want BUT it is still a minivan. I am one to not care about what others think but I did get tired of driving it and my next vehicle is one of the last ones off the line, an envoy XL.

sls002

SUV's get bad gas mileage because they are heavy, AND, being tall, have a lot of drag. SUV's are utility vehicles and for those that actually need them are probably very useful vehicles.

riposte

I've been a "car guy" my whole life. When I was a kid, I spend endless hours drawing pictures of cars (alway big, honkin' V8's). When I was in college, I worked at a small Pontiac dealership. My first new car was 1985 Mustang GT.

I'm 45 years old now, and it seems obvious that we're at a "tipping" point in the auto industry. Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and others are chipping away at the so-called "domestic" manufacturers.

I wonder: What real value do GM or Ford actually have? What benefits do they provide the marketplace that can't be had at a lower price and/or better quality from one of the previously-mentioned manufacturers?

Does the "Aveo" nameplate have any value? If you were to look at GM, car model by car model, which ones have any value? The Corvette name....what else? Likewise with Ford: the Mustang, for sure. What else? The F-150 series trucks. Does anyone care about a owning a "Fusion"? Does anyone lust after one? Would it have any value to, say, Kia/Hyundai to buy Ford for only a couple of models? Would Kia/Hyundai buy Ford for their R&D experience? Doubtful. Their manufacturing facilities? Nope. Same with GM. If you were Toyota, what price would you pay for GM, and what would you be buying for that money?

What state-of-the-art technologies have Ford or GM brought to market? In GM's case, I mean "since the small-block V8". BTW, "HUGE SUV's" is *NOT* a "technology" in my book.

I submit that the only value offered by GM and Ford are a small handfull of model names that have any value in the marketplace. Everything else irrelevent.

Thoughts?

62vetteefp

I do not really need the heavy duty SUV. The most I carry has been 10 sheets of 3/4" plywood or 7 passengers. Really wish the Enclave was out.