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His trade is being valued according to all the fleet turnins at that thime.
I was involved in it during the 80's and early 90's. This was the time when the Camcord first began making inroads but none were ever built here. There was a huge stink and during the Raegan Admin threats of penalties etc. Like everything in Big Business it was settled by GM/F/C/T/H hammering out a mutually agreeable settlement.
There would be no penalties on auto's but there would be a 25% penalty on trucks ( still in effect ). This gave the Detroiters free rein in the high margin SUV/truck segment. All their R&D and development went there. They gave the auto sector to HonYota.. here it's yours.
The UAW leaders seeing that GM/F/C were going to make ungodly profits in the near future said no way. If you're going to make all this money in the high margin sector we want some too. So they threatened to shut down GM forever. So GM gave in. Jobs Banks, etc.. At the time every analyst said that GM especially was just pushing the day of reckoning back. But as long as you're talking about high-margin vehicles you can support these programs.
However, except for Cadillac, none of the autos is high margin even in the best of times.
Rick Wagoner was handed this mess and told 'Fix it'.
What would you do to 'Fix it?' Next post
No 1. Your primary responsibility is to the shareholders.
Keep the value of their holdings stable, increase profits.
No 2. Maintain GM's preeminent position in the market
Which market? The US market or the world market?
No 3. Do something about the extra burden of the last contract.
Restrictions:
With the above burden you will never make money on any vehicle built in the US/Canada and priced under $23000.
You cannot cancel or walk away from the labor contracts mutually negotiated by your predecessors.
If your volume decreases the applied fixed costs get higher for each vehicle produced. If volume shrinks too much you might not be able to make a profit on any vehicle priced less than $27000 or even $30000.
Now do all of this at the same time.
Suggestions?
-Demand that GM management grow up and act like real Americans, by taking a bit of responsibility for what they do, instead of blaming others for what they haven't done. Stop pointing fingers at everything and everyone else, creating fanciful stories about conspiracies and cabals, and remember that the country could have never become what it is had everyone whined, moaned and cried Media Conspiracy instead of acting with some resolve. If all they can do is blame the dog for eating their homework, then they deserve to fail.
*****
But that *IS* the "American" way of doing things. Just look at the media and our leaders.
As for what to do -
1: Can't be done. At best, you remain stable.
2: Can't be done. Plan to occupy 10-15% of the market, but make really high quality cars.
2B: Ditch overseas markets except where absolutely necessarry(Russia for instance). Concentrate on the business at home. GET OUT OF CHINA BEFORE THEY ROB YOU BLIND. Move to even Malaysia or India - at least they respect your patents and property rights.
3:Dissolve the UAW. Create something that works from the ashes. Reduce your total burden by half any way you can. Then you can make a profit.
4: Diversify 50% of your business into things other than automobiles. Honda does this, btw, and it's one reason they are so strong even though Japan is in a recession. Honda motorcycles, cars, jetskis, boat engines, lawn mowers, leaf blowers... BTW, this is where Honda got its reputation for good engines. They make some of the best engines that we use every weekend.
5:Make the best cars you possibly can. Make cars that force the others to adjust. For instance, bring back real bumpers, wood and cloth interiors(zero plastic!), increase the gause of the sheetmetal on the car by 50% - make every car feel like a Mercedes or BMW inside. Not just look like it. CR has been griping about poor bumpers on cars for decades now, and it's an easy way to impress many customers.
6: Performance-based bonuses. If a CEO messes up, they get ZERO options, zero "parachute", AND a bad letter of recommendation for their next job. Guaranteed. That's what the common worker gets if they mess up, afterall.
7:Get rid of 50% of the models. Anything slightly redundant is gone.
There are others, but you get the idea.
I agree that this may very well be the strategy, but I would disagree that this is a wise move. These mediocre cars simply tarnish the brand.
Brand is that intangible component of a company's goodwill that motivates consumers to pay price premiums and/or buy more frequently, and GM is working hard to erode theirs, at least in the US car market. The core reason why Toyota and Honda are prospering is that their reputations stregthen their brands, which allows them to fetch higher wholesale margins than GM ever could, particularly from the fleet market.
In looking from the latest on back:
Large SUV's: Everything I have read says they have great interior fit/finish and materials. Also Ride and handling is great. Exterior stying has been given high marks. Quality is yet to be determined. January sales were up 50% over last year even with the $2.20 gas price. Score a good one for GM with a world class competitor. HIT to be determined
DTS/Lucerne: Pretty much the same press reports as the large SUV's. Sales are doing very well. Quality yet to be determined but expect good numbers. Not a homerun but doing well.
Solstice: Sold out for many months more. Interior materials not as good as some of the competition but not substandard. Exterior styling the biggest hit and with the price selling all they can make. Quality yet to be determined. HIT
H3: Selling like mad. Cannot build enough. I cannot comment about the interior quality but exterior styling is kicking but. HIT
HHR: Selling like mad. Interior quality great but could be better to match competition. Priced right/styled right. HIT
Vette: Always a great seller. Can I not call it a HIT?
Minivans: Sales are way up from the previous van and interior quality is much improved but GM did not invest and it is not competitive. LOSERS but still selling.
STS: got great press but not best in class. Not a loser but not a hit.
Impala: Big step foward in interior quality but not as good as some of the competition (New Camry). Quality is #1 in the midsize. Selling much better but not beating the 2 big boys. Exterior styling as conservative as they come and perhaps it would sell better with a little more excitement. In the middle of the pack.
Cobalt: OK, GM is not known for their small cars and Cobalt is not best in class. However sales are great, beating out the Corolla. It is competitive. GM needs to do better.
G6: Great looking car. Sales doing well but not a hit. Interior could be better and not best in class. GM needs to do better.
LaCross: Interior fit, finish and materials competitive with the Camry and Accord if not besting them (at least the old Camry). Great looking car. Better quality. Selling at a much higher ATP than the old Century/Regal. Selling well but the old architecture holds back interior efficiency and exterior styling as well as the higher pricing. Needs a new grill. GM needs to do better.
How about the future? Well the Sky is sold out and it is not even in the dealerships yet. The Pickups will be BIG hits and help bring back some of the profits. The Buick Enclave is wonderful in a whole new market-full size crossover.
Saturn dealer John Bergstrom is facing an unexpected dilemma. Weeks before
the Sky roadster hits the showroom, it is generating so much buzz that he
has started a waiting list at all six of his stores.
"Sky is just a flat-out home run," said Bergstrom, chairman of Bergstrom
Automotive in Neenah, Wis. "I've never had that before. They've never even
considered a Saturn."
Waiting lists are unfamiliar for Saturn, sometimes dubbed the brand for
people who don't like cars.
The Aura and new Malibu are also supposed to be styling hits from the press who have seen it.
Bottom line is that the latest vehicles are either hits or competitive with a few not so good. The future does look brighter but every vehicle coming out needs to be better.
Not sure how you got that. During 2005, there were about 232,000 Corollas sold in the US, versus about 213,000 Cobalts. But add to this that a large proportion of those Cobalt sales -- based upon typical GM behavior, most likely somewhere between 25-50% of that total -- were sold to fleets, compared to very few Corollas meeting the same fate.
Also, above I posted the reliability data about the various cars, and Cobalt comes out at the bottom. A car that has over 70 TSB's in the first model year can't be winning back the confidence of retail buyers like you and me, nor should it.
I do agree that the Solstice is off to a fine start. Let's hope that build quality and reliability don't eventually overtake the great leap forward in style.
Cars have gotten smaller. The current Impala is smaller than the compact '75 Nova, but that doesn't make it sub-compact. Impala's have always been smaller that the big Buicks and Cadillacs. As big as a '70 Caprice is, park it next to a Deville or Electra of the same year.
http://www.flowgo.com/index.cfm?action=view&id=12780&scid=0
Rocky
Rocky -I guess you better get the GM Ext. Warranty huh ?
I just spent 4 days in a new rental 2006 Impala in Orlando. It was a LT 4-door, and the interior was well finished. The HVAC controls worked well, but the temp controls were really not all that intuitive. Overall, it was pretty impressive. One thing that wasn't impressive, however, was of the sound of the door closing. It didn't have that "thunk" that you hear when closing a Honda, Toyota, or Hyundai Sonata (yep, I said Hyundai). It was a solid sound, but not as solid as those other's mentioned. Other than that, I would buy one!
The problem is that the build-quality is inferior. Thinner doors, thinner plastic(and nearly everything you CAN touch in it is plastic or some sort) - it just - feels like a very big GM Echo. Add in the fact that they apparently slapped it together for a price, like Huyndai is famous for - and well, you get a Hyundai like car without the warranty. For the price of a Sentra or Civic.
GM's biggest design problem? Besides the fact that people loathe plastic as a rule, it's their drivetrains. The engines and transmissions in the cars that are marketed towards first-time buyers need to be built as well as the ones they put in their Buicks and Cadillacs.
Dropping a lump of aluminum in there with a rubbery gearbox, then making it front-wheel drive - this is reminding me of Chrysler in the 80s more and more.
Honda, for instance... They put the 5 speed automatic from the new Civic in the upcoming Fit, because it made for a bulletproof combination, even if mileage suffered 3-4MPG. They understand that a first-time buyer who has their first new car - if it's a reliable car that never suffers from major engine or transmission work for the first 8-10 years, you've likely got a repeat customer.
Toyota - they went with the Scions, which are better built in many ways than the Echo/Yaris and Corolla. They want to create repeat customers.
GM? Fleet sales. If it survives a weekend driving on the highway... who cares about how it will last in 5-10 years? Rental companies don't keep cars more than a couple of years, anyways. For personal use? $16K for a Cobalt(not the S version, even!) with a couple options and delivery added in?(like ABS and other things they option out rather than build into every model)
The car's not worth $13K. 16K - you can get a dozen better cars for that much money.
With the initial talk about the GMT900s being positive and getting rave revenues, do you think GM will again rest on their laurels and solely depend on the trucks to be the profit generators, letting the car side wane and left for dead. I'm afraid that this may happen.
Also, I feel that the current crop of GM cars/trucks may be it for awhile. Meaning this may be as good as it gets since GM has so much on its plate - Miller & Delphi, UAW, legacy. If this is the case, do any of you feel GM will continue to be able to putter along and stay stable (market-share wise), that these vehicles are good enough to last for years (with little changing during that time period, no major freshenings) or sputter to BK?
I'd be tempted to buy off their design studios. All of the domestics have made some terrific concepts in recent years. They just don't seem to have the resources to build them. Or maybe the designs are just too expensive to build. But they seem like great ideas in need of better execution.
IMO, GM shouldn't sputter to BK -- it should run to it with open arms. BK would allow GM to severe labor contracts, eliminate excess nameplates (read: dealer relationships) and farm out many of its pension obligations, which would ultimately be absorbed by the workers, retirees and federal government.
But it will need the right management team, a strong stable of products and a well-constructed recovery plan to ultimately make such a thing work. Cost cutting gets some short-term benefits, but the only long-term hope will come from building cars that retail customers want. Otherwise, you end up with the currently skewed business model that will invariably bleed, the only question being "By how much?".
Loren
Maybe not trying to erode their position in the auto market but allowing it to happen as they slowly dissolve their presence here intentionally.
They dumped all the plastic ridges and gave it a cleaner, more modern look. (Perhaps a mistake in spite of critisms)
Smaller on the outside, bigger on the inside.
More reliable with better build quality. Not much of an accomplishment as the old Camaro/Firebird plant was the worst rated in the nation. However, the GTO did have a higer rating than the Mustang, and as few as they sold they must have surveyed just about everybody that bought one.
No base/V-6 model to lessen its reputation as a performance car (Its big mistake in my mind).
I guess we have one more chance to buy the king of modern muscle, and the world drift champion (Eat your heart out General Lee).
I think that you have done a nice job of analyzing what may actually be at work here. But if your assessment is accurate, then I would say that it's a strategy that only an accountant could love and that will have negative ripple effects across the company for their operations in what is the world's largest car market, i.e. here.
On a related note, I wonder how much of this is tied to the perceived need to feed the dealer network. Badge engineering seems to have been perceived as a low-cost way to serve all of the various nameplates without the needed R&D money to develop these brands to their full potential, resulting in the loss of differentiation among them. The best move would be to simply kill off redundant nameplates, but I imagine that the dealers would react negatively.
Since the margins on new domestics are so slim, you have a point that GM dealers may really be using their corporate brand to avoid the stigma of operating used car lots, while mostly selling used cars. Again, if the strategy is meant to serve the demands and complaints of the sales channel (the dealers), rather than the customer, then it's no wonder that it will eventually hit the wall.
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GM is still the Worlds largest seller of automobiles, even it is for its last year, its only dropping second (gasp!)
In the US, GM outsells Toyota, not by 10%, not 25%, not 50%, but by more than 95%. If you discount all fleet sales, that makes it, uh, still out of the ballpark.
Toyota as a higher resale value over what time period. 4 years? 8 years? And why does that gap get smaller the farther we go back? Two reasons, Toyotas class leading quality doesn't go back that far, and the cost to maintain them once the warrenty is gone is much higher.
I'm not a brand loyalist of any type, but I know trends can change. Toyota may be on a roll, but they aren't king yet. I'm old enough to remember when Toyota were throw away cars and Dodges were consider indestructible.
Today in America, GM is number 1, Ford is number 2 and Toyota is battling Chrysler for number 3. Lets not get ahead of reality here. We shall see what the future holds.
Yep, got to watch those statistics. Cobalt sales have been increasing over the 2005 year. In December Corolla:12,133
Cobalt:16,900
I would give more months but the darn Automotive News website is having problems.
? Not sure where you're getting your figures at all:
-In 2005, GM sold 1,784,825 vehicles in the US. TMC sold 1,289,356 vehicles. Difference: GM sold approximately 459,000 (36%) more vehicles.
-Apply estimated figures of 25% fleet sales for GM (a typical year), versus 8% to Toyota (again, a typical year), and you end up with an estimated difference of about 125,000 retail customers for the year.
-Between 2004 and 2005, TMC's US sales increased by over 188,000 units (+17.1%). In contrast, GM's fell by almost 91,000 (-4.8%)
GM is hanging onto its US lead with retail customers by a thread. Since GM is supposedly making an effort to reduce its exposure to the low margin fleet market, expect these numbers to skew even more, as GM sales should fall more rapidly if the fleet deals are reduced. Add to the fact that Toyota has profits to feed the business while GM does not, and that adds up to serious problems for the General.
So I wouldn't be surprised if sales of the Cobalt are running neck and neck with the Corolla. I guess you could say that's a bit unfair though, because the Cobalt offers a 2-door, whereas the Corolla only offers a 4-door.
Each is one brand - excluding the luxo-divisons.
At Saturn the Sky is going off the charts apparently... but what else causes any excitement there.
You have to haul yourself over to a GMC/Buick/Pontiac store to see the new large SUV's and the Soltice and maybe the Lucerne ( those are 3 completely separate segments ).
Or haul yourself over to a Chevy store to see the same very good Large SUV's, and very capable trucks, and the 'vette, and the HHR... and a ho-hum Cobalt or Impala ( capable but not enough sizzle )
Sizzle gets fannys in seats and eventually these seats in driveways. Of all the three the Chevy line has the most going for it because a whole extended family can go there and see something to get excited about. GM is spreading the sizzle too thinly. A truck buyer in a Saturn store? ' Yeah let's get done here so I can go look at the new Silverado'.
At the competitors' stores the sizzle is planned in 4 month increments, but all at the same store.
From Fall '04 thru '05
- the '05 Tacoma ( MT ToTY )
- the '05 Avalon ( C&D rates #1 to Lacrosse, 300, Five Hundred )
- the Hybrid Highlander..
- the RAV4 ( faster than any SUV on the market ! )
in 2006
- the '07 Camry ( great reviews thus far - monstrous volume )
- the '07 Camry Hybrid
- the FJ Cruiser ( it appears to be like the Sky - but small volume )
- the new Highlander
in 2007
- the new Tundra
- the new Corolla ( will it get the Civic sizzle - good chance )
All of this is in one location. No moving down the street or across town or even to the next town. The 19 y.o. 'First-time-Buyer'comes to look at the Scion's cuz his friends say it's cool; Mom and Dad think it's a toaster ( but Affordable ). However Mom sees the new RAV4 and now it's a two car day.
The same can be said for Hyundai's new improving line.. at dirt cheap prices!; or Honda's award-winners, Odyssey, Pilot, Accord, Civic, Ridgeline. Great sizzle all inside one building.
I've owned practically every car make in over 40 years of driving, including most European, Japanese, and American cars, including a beautiful 1966 Olds 98 Holiday Coupe! - most of which were bought new. I have a real bone to pick with "plekto's" statement above. We recently bought - much to my surprise after a tremendous amount (9 months) of time spent on "touchy-feely" and driving comparisons - a new 2006 Hyundai Elantra GLS 4-door sedan for my wife. The build-quality and interior materials exceed the last Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla we owned (mid-90's models). I've been over every last nook and cranny of this car, and it's put together very well, all for a delivered price with TTL of $13,750. I never thought we'd buy a Korean car, but it was purchased based upon direct head-to-head comparisons with the others in its class - Civic, Cobalt, Corolla, Focus, etc. The majority of plastics inside are of a high-quality and soft-to-the-touch feel (not hard like the new Civic), much to our suprise.
If this is what GM, Ford, and DC must compete against, the domestic manufacturers are in serious trouble. And, my last new car was a domestic - a Dodge Grand Caravan ES. Maybe it's time to seriously consider tariffs or trade barriers!
I assure you, Hyundai has come a long, long way in a very short time. I think you may need to come up with a different "negative yardstick" of comparison. Of course, I will check back with you in around a decade, but with the 10 year/100K powertrain warranty, I'm not going to lose any sleep over reliability, as there as plenty of examples of Hyundai's with over 250K on the clock and still purring like Honda Civics.
Frankly, I saw more visible seam and gap mismatches on some of the highly respected new Toyota Camry LE's we looked at originally back in March '05 than I saw on any of the Hyundai products we looked at. Times may be "a changin" . . .
Cadillac; 235,002
Buick; 282.288
Oldsmobile; 18,066
Pontiac; 437,806
Chevrolet;2,651,124
Saturn; 213,657
GMC; 537,572
Hummer; 56,727
Saab; 38,343
Total GM; 4,454,385
Lexus; 302,895
Toyota; 981,645
Scion; 156,485
Total; 2,260,296
Using your 25% and 8%, that still put GM 62% ahead of Toyota. Your numbers are car sales only, not vehicle sales. And dare I say that 36% more "retail" car sales, remains a large margin.
And for December they sold 13,000 Matrix's!!! That number is amazing. Especially when the almost identical Pontiac Vibe sold only 4600.
Atuomotive news is back up. Lets look at the compact car sales.
January
Corolla:15,600 (24,900 with Matrix)
Matrix:9300
Cobalt:17,500 (25,100 with HHR)
HHR:8600
Vibe:2700
Civic:24788!!
I wonder what the 2 door vs 4 door split on the Cobalt is?
Bottom line is the Cobalt/HHR is outselling the Corolla and even the Civic sub compact model line ups. Yes there is a 2 door and probably 25% fleet. Why doesn't the Corolla have a 2 door or station wagon? Probably because they have the Matrix? Civic should pick up sales with the new model though. It's Toyota that needs to get a new model.
I don't think that anyone disputes that GM and Ford are still strong in the truck market (although inroads are being made on that turf as well) -- I have made the argument that it is overly invested in that segment. But when in terms of retail car sales, Toyota is very close to passing GM, a reflection of its ability to better connect with the needs of the average consumer.
Perhaps GM will be increasingly niched as a seller of pickup trucks (a market that will also become increasingly competitive because of Toyota) and of cars designed for fleets, while Toyota and the "imports" dominate retail passenger car sales. If the fleet sales are going to be rationalized and the growing market share of Toyota disputed, then that transition seems inevitable.
1. All GM employee and their family members must
buy and drive GM vehicles only (new or used) preferably brand they work for.
- If someone thinks side airbags are not needed in minivan - think again - your children are there.
- If your teenager considers Cobalt or Ion as a punishment - do something at work to fix this.
2. No Employee discount for Mid management to top Brass - full MSRP only.
- If you think price is too high you a probably right - discuss it on your morning meeting.
- If your Caddy do not have enough snob appeal in your neighborhood - discuss it on your morning meeting.
- If you cannot make to your morning meeting because your car in repear shop again - discuss it on your next morning meeting.
And If after 5 years you still have a job - I guess you did something right...
Back around the 1979-83 timeframe, the Corolla actually had 6 body styles! 2- and 4-door sedan, 2-door hatchback, 2-door hardtop, 2-door hardtop wagon (kind of a wagon/hatchback hybrid) and 4-door wagon. Eventually, the wagon got replaced by minivans and cute-utes. The hardtop was a body style that just went away with the advent of more common air conditioning. And a 2-door sedan is really no sportier than a 4-door sedan, and has no prestige over it. No real advantages, really, except a slightly stiffer body structure.
I agree with JDHSpyder that GM is essentially neglecting the US retail car market. I'm just not completely sure whether the move is deliberate -- I would be inclined to think that it is simply a lack of a sense of urgency and resignation to channel conflicts (i.e. the obligation to serve all of these seperate dealer networks) that leads to this result. But if it is a deliberate effort, then I would disagree that this will prove to be a sensible move for the company.
OK a little secret. IT IS A VERY COMPETITIVE MARKET!!! How can anybody really expect to put out competitive products when the competition has so many advantages. At this time domestics can get a price premium on trucks becase the imports are not competing there. What are they? We all know them.
-Very expensive hourly work force with unbelievable benefits. The imports just do not have to pay the wages or benefits.
-Even all those engineers and other white collar back home are cheaper because they do not have the health care or pensions to worry about.
-Expensive management and CEO's. We pay much more here in the states for mid and upper management than those overseas. This is not a function of the automotive business but in all US business's.
-100 years of retirees with huge pensions and HUGER health care costs. The imports do not have them here or in their home market.
-Imbalance in money from here in the US to wherever they come from.
-As the competition comes there is really no way to keep your market share if they are cheaper. As they sell more vehicles the home team loses share and plants need to close. Now, because of stupid agreements (look stupid now!!) all those extra workers have to continue to be paid.
So when a car is designed and developed there are a number of line items that the imports do not have to worry about. And as time goes on and share goes down this line gets bigger and bigger. That means you need to cut corners. So you put out a product that is less and less competitive or you take the difference in a loss of profit. Either way it gets worse and worse.
Yes GM has made some huge mistakes and I am still pissed off at decisions made to save money, but the bottom line, just like every other US industry that has tryed to compete, is the US is losing to other countries. GM is going to have to reduce costs even more. they must get rid of the job banks, Pensions and health care. They must reduce Engineering costs and cut management.
-During 2001, the dollar strengthened from a rate of about 117 yen per dollar to 135.
-Between 2002 and 2005, the dollar fell steadily in value from the 135 level to about 102.
-During 2006, the dollar has regained some strength to put the dollar back to about the 118 level, or about where it was five years ago.
If the conspiracy theorists were correct, that graph would be a line climbing steadily up and to the right. You can see that essentially the opposite of that has happened. Maybe their version of the Wall Street Journal publishes different articles than those printed in mine?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
-Between 2002 and 2005, the dollar fell steadily in value from the 135 level to about 102.
-During 2006, the dollar has regained some strength to put the dollar back to about the 118 level, or about where it was five years ago.
This country has been at a disadvantage for more than 5 years. That is one reason why there is little industry left here. I know this forum is about GM but most industry is no longer in this country. It was lost years ago. Try and find anything made in the US. So maybe it is all myth but the outcome is the same. The only reason we can buy the imported stuff is because we are propped up by the exporters.
The dollar has fallen against the yen by 50% during the last two decades. So again, it is the exact opposite of what you have described.
The exchange rate is not an "opinion", it is a verifiable fact that can be read in a newspaper. Despite all your desires to paint a picture to the contrary:
-The dollar is weak by historical standards.
-No country can "manipulate" currency values because exchange rates are ultimately set by the free market. A treasury can attempt to change the direction, but cannot act out of the bounds of reality.
-Japan can and does buy and sell dollars and US treasury bonds in an effort to influence exchange rates. But guess what? So does the US and every other nation.
If there was some great conspiracy by Japan, we would have a dollar that is steadily climbing against the yen -- instead, it has been falling over the long run. If we could have the exchange rates that we had during 1985, a new Lexus IS350 would cost $18-20,000, but it obviously doesn't because this simply isn't possible for anyone to "manipulate".
At one time I looked at a 73 Fleetwood Sixty Special, but after driving it I realized that it was much too big for me. I did own a 71 and 76 Riviera though, a less ponderous sized car.
So that is 3.7 billion that the imports did not have to pay and 3.7 billion out of the GM losses last year.
What did GM pay to buy SAAB, or to end up with that bad FIAT deal? Why not factor that into their self-inflicted list of expenses?
Rocky