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So you are baseing the handling of the GTO on one single test from Edmunds, which measures tire grip more than anything? Hint, there are lots of other publications that have tested the GTO and found the handling to be very good. And there is also the seat time thing, but why try that when you can sit on a forum and post nonsense.
Look at Subaru WRX STi which Edmunds compared to GTO in road test. Face it, GTO is a dud.
Funny thing is I looked up the STI sales numbers a few months ago, and it appeared they sell 9k to 10k units a year. So is the STI a dud because of that?
Slalom? This is not a rally car, or a sports car, its a muscle car. A tire frying, big horserpower, family sedan. World drift champion. If your drifting in a Solara your on ice thinking about insurance coverage.
Residents of AL, TN, MS, TX and IN are very happy that the automotive manufacturing sector is moving south. These states are all in the Midwest.. just the south-Midwest. The NA auto industry is 40% larger than it was 20 yrs ago. That's proof enough. Increased spending is actually a sign of consumer confidence and outlook. Adding credit is a good sign for the economy... people are buying.
Facts are facts. No doubt some are being hurt while others are benefiting but this is the way progress happens.
Better advertising (footage of Monaros beating up on Ford Falcons in Australia, then GTO's beating up on Mustangs in the US), better looks (the VY SS nose and some blackout altezza tails), and better distribution (Sunbelt markets where you can drive a car like that all year long), and things could have been completely different. Just another example of GM management hosing it up.
Apparently not too many folks think that GTO worthy of purchase. Contrast this with Mustang or new Civic SI.
This whole idea of retro muscle cars is just so wrong and stupid I can't believe anyone buys into it. Doesn't anyone in GM/DC marketing spend any time 'on the ground' listening to what the typical buyer wants.
These are niche products that Mazda or a much smaller version of Pontiac might bring out just to get Mom into the store to sell her a worldclass minivan. Let Dad ooo and ahh, while Mom spends real money on family vehicles.
If GM was Mazda's size then sure go for small volume excitement vehicles. But to run a huge company based on meeting the desire of a few 40 y.o. guys wanting to remember their girl/car/dream fantasies. It's ludicrous.
When you sell the 14 guys that have the money and desire to spend $30000 !!! for a 400 HP motor !!! how are you going to fill the rest of the factory??? If this is GM's marketing strategy and this is the demand that they see saving their company... they have no hope at all.
Two words: Grow up.
Or go to Barrett Jackson and get down and dirty
I might be a bit biased though, because when I was a little kid my Dad had a '64 GTO 2-door sedan, and it scared the hell out of me. It was primer grayish-black, and what little was left of the exhaust system dragged on the ground, so not only was it loud and evil sounding, but sparks would come out from under it.
But back in '64, I think a GTO, and even the Tempest/LeMans, looked tough compared to the likes of an F-85, Chevelle, or Special. And Ford intermediates by then were still pretty wussy, except for those Thunderbolt racecars. Now I think a 1964 Dodge Coronet is a pretty mean, tough looking car, but the '64 GTO somehow comebines mean, tough, and good looking in a much more deft fashion.
I don't see why they couldn't have an Impala AND a Lucerne (one a bit bigger than the other)at Chevy, and let Buick go to its watery grave. (why's it watery? I dunno)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Tell us how you REALLY feel. :P
These days, it seems like a dead niche, esp. with the impressive content and ammenities of the average "basic" car and the ability for pretty much anyone to lease a true luxury car if they're willing to deal with the payments. There seems very little that is intrinsically Buick any longer, that couldn't be replicated in say Chevy.
Sounds to me like you are growing old, and fuddy duddy, like old regime at GM, more than growing up. Life it too short to be lived in a mini-van. I have grown up, out, and all around, as well as old physically, but not in spirit, while some were just born old, and fussy I guess.
No, they do not need to produce only 400HP cars, and they do not all have to be copies of days-gone-bye, but they can look American in flavor, bold, stylish, and with some hints of the best years, in some models, like the Camaro. The inline, slant, and V6 six cylinder engine is also traditional.
BTW, I think you meant 50 year old and not 40 yr. old people wanting to relive their dreams. The dream was over by then. Did you enjoy the 55MPH freeways?
Loren
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
DaimlerChrysler more or less followed the same model by dumping Plymouth and just having two domestic car divisions, one sportier (Dodge) and the other more luxurious (Chrysler). Jeep is reserved for SUVs only.
GM and Ford are caught between a rock and a hard place with too many brands.
There's a point where having said something 10 times or so to countermand someone's statement-opinion or fact in your mind, there's no point in continually repeating. Just agree to disagree is my motto. We saw that in Repeal Speed Limits discussion. Continually badgering when agreement isn't going to come melds to harrassment. Check Rules of the Road.
>like always bringing up Honda transmission problems
Since you brought it up.... no, I won't say that. :grin.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Does York really think he can turn around General Motors? Obviously, says a person familiar with his thinking. Otherwise he would have counseled Kerkorian to keep his money in T-bills rather than risking $1.2 billion in GM stock. Let's remember, GM's creditors might do okay if it files forbankruptcy. But it's a nightmare scenario for Kerkorian. As a holder of common equity, he would be wiped out. Those familiar with York's thinking say that he believes that the chances of GM's going bankrupt are remote, and could be triggered only by some sort of world economic event outside the company's control that would have a devastating impact on auto sales.
This guy is calling other board members and GM execs at midnight to get his questions answered. Expect more changes to come.
What do you think they will be? Sell Hummer (no way unless they get a lot of money for it). Sell Saab (maybe). Salary pay cuts(probably, but I know lots of people leaving now for better pay. Raises have been very small for a few years. And to those who say who cares they do not deserve the money, please do not comment.)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As I said nothing is in the works. Whoever buys it will have to design/develop and tool up or buy a plant to build them.
If you really think GM can avoid bankruptcy and regain profitability, then the stock is a buy. Like 62 mentioned, I certainly think it will go lower before it goes higher. Only invest money that you won't miss if things get worse or don't improve for GM.
I've thought about it, but there are just to many other investments out there to make money on. GM stock is just to risky for my tastes. At the same time, I would be a bit surprised if in the next year or two that it doubles or completely tanks.
Tough to call.
The only Pontiac model that has a replacement planned is the G6, and even that is iffy. Notice how GM has already given Saturn a Solstice clone, and there are strong rumors that Chevrolet is in line to receive one as well. (And forget about another GTO or even a reborn Firebird, as posted on autoextremist this morning - neither one is happening.)
I'd be willing to bet that Pontiac is gone by 2010.
Loren
Slalom? This is not a rally car, or a sports car, its a muscle car. A tire frying, big horserpower, family sedan. World drift champion. If your drifting in a Solara your on ice thinking about insurance coverage.
Always excuses. Let's compare the GTO to a Chyrsler, which has over 300 more pounds of road-hugging weight.
Edmunds shows GTO at 60.0 MPH in slalom at 3725 pounds. Chrysler 300C SRT8 does slalom at 65.2 MPH at 4046 pounds. So, heavier Chrysler beats GTO by 5 MPH. The lighter (by 300 pounds) GTO cannot even match the heavier Chrysler. Not only do numbers show GTO is pokey, but Edmunds states that it is clumsy.
Family sedans that beat GTO in slalom: Sebring 62.8, Mazda6 64.9, Galant 63.4, Altima 61.0, Suzuki Verona 61.0, Camry 61.8, Passat 61.3.
Not to mention, Pontiac sells way more overall, doesn't it? Buick sales have been in freefall for some time, something which the advent of the LaCrosse and Lucerne have failed to do anything about. Now the minivan will go away and the Rendezvous will be replaced by the Enclave - none of that will boost sales at Buick I am quite sure.
I still say Buick, but I wouldn't bet against you either.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Stock value by 3rd quarter 2006 $17.02 a share.
Market share by 4th quarter 2007 20%.
Hell, if the Wall Street "karnaks" can do it so can I.
We will see. The Delphi collapse will accellerate the process. Oh,I'd say by 6 months.
I'm pretty impressed that the 300C SRT8 can do 65.2 through the slalom. I was always under the impression that the slalom tended to favor lightweight cars with short wheelbases, of which the 300C is neither.
I dug up some old slalom figures though, which I found interesting.
Edmund's did a test of a 2000 Dodge Intrepid ES, and it did 56.9 mph through the slalom. And interestingly, they actually PRAISED its handling, although there were many cars in that comparison that bested it.
Anyway, they also tested a 2002 300M Special, which is the same platform and same wheelbase as an Intrepid, but better tires, suspension, and engine. It did 63.6 mph through the slalom.
Edmund's also tested a 2005 Chrysler 300 Limited, which is probably the closest LX car, in spirit, to the 2000 Intrepid ES. It did 57.2 mph through the slalom.
So if the 300 could have such a wide range in slalom times depending on the tires, suspension, etc, it really makes me wonder if there is room to improve the GTO with minor mods? Or is the platform already pushed to its handling limits?
Again, the “it has 400hp for $32K” argument. Doesn’t hold water. For the umpteen time, just because the car has 400hp it doesn’t mean it’s worth $32K. The sales numbers speak to that. Others made the same argument with the ’04 saying “it has 350hp for $33K”. IF it was worth it, why did so many people wait until the fire sales to start buying the ’04 AND were waiting for fire sales with the ’05? Simply having 400hp does not automatically mean you have a hot item. I didn’t see people dumping their 350Zs, G35s, 330I, M3s and the like and start snatching up this GTO. I will say GM didn’t help matters by not promoting this car other than those idiotic commercials that only ran on Speed, showing the car sliding across the screen. If your supposed market is the BMWers, and that it’s not the muscle car of yore, why are you trying to present it as a muscle car? I also blame the dealer network; they turned off a lot of potential buyers with the ridiculous ADM, test drive practices and the like. Admit it, Lutz and bunch figured all they had to do is slap GTO badges on and it would sell like hotcakes. Didn’t happen.
Sales-wise, the ’04 (and perhaps the ‘05s) was a flop. Capacity was 18K, each year for 3 years. The ‘04s didn’t come close and they are STILL selling ‘04s. The ’05 production was reduced to 12K units and sold a little over 11K I believe which is good (but this number may have some ‘04s mixed in so I’m not 100% sure). So total about 25 – 26K out of an original possible 36K. Briefly, anytime you:
a) don’t meet you intended sales target by more than 10% or so (depends on break-even other factors)
b) have to reduce your production numbers for the next year due to slow sales
c) takes you extremely longer to sell a product than projected
d) have product languishing in stock due to poor sales
you my friend have a sales flop. So, ’04 flop; ’05 maybe great, maybe a flop – time will tell.
Why is it whenever you quote something from a magazine or TV show it’s absolutely, positively, 100% accurate but when someone else quotes something negative from the same magazine about the car, they’re wrong, they don’t know what they’re talking about? Seeing as though you haven’t tested your car, any other GTO for that matter (you admitted it remember) or completed comparison tests, how do you know what’s correct and what’s not in terms of 0-60, ¼-mile, slalom, lateral-grip, braking. So you’re kind of a hypocrite. Don’t put people down simply because they don’t like the car and decided not to buy it.
The $15K, that's called exchange rate.
Pontiac sold 437,806 units in calendar 2005, while Buick sold only 282,288 units, according to Automotive News. Lexus sales were higher than Buick's, at 302,895, to put Buick's sales falloff in perspective.
The Buick Lucerne has potential IMO, and the upcoming Enclave (awful name) should do better than the Rainier and Rendezvous, both of which will be dropped in MY 2007 as I understand.
I noticed that grbeck posted in a different thread with a little more info about the behind-the-scenes goings-on with regard to starving Pontiac of product in order to gradually eliminate it, and I wouldn't say that is a bad move - Pontiac or Buick really needs to go, in the next few years if GM can manage it. I am just surprised GM would pick Pontiac over Buick for that mission. Perhaps they see Pontiac as less profitable, maybe because someone over there is still hoping to build Buick into this quasi-luxury brand that will command higher prices. That day, if it ever comes, is too far out to be planning on it at this stage, IMO.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Is it maybe destined to be GM's "budget sport-quirky" division (sorta like a GM Mazda)?
Also, Buick, Pontiac and GMC are joined together as a multiline dealership. Dumping either Buick or Pontiac will probably result in the dumping of the other. GMC is a Chevy truck anyway, so dumping the Buick_Pontiac_GMC dealerships would not mean the end of the basic trucks.
GM priced the GTO high enough that demand would not exceed supply, which was limited. Plus, the cost of the GTO is probably not low. They are going to bring in an excess supply of 2006 models for model 2007 sales so I read.
I think demand for high performance big engine cars is very limited. I don't want one. I would like a small engined station wagon. I would probably look at something with a small V12 (say 4.5 liters), but a CTS wagon with a 3.6 V6 is what I would like to see. I do like the BMW 3-series wagon, but the nearest dealer is too far away.
I would keep the Lucerne and the Solstice, call them Chevys thereafter, and dump the rest.
I understand that there are costs involved with shutting each division down, and that doing so with all three would be next to impossible in any short time frame, but in an ideal world at GM, looking ten years out, all three would be gone.
As for Saturn, well, they have this future plan for it to be sort of the American Opel, and we have yet to see how well they execute this plan. If they bring in models with genuine European flair (not the usual watered-down-for-the-Americans crap we normally see) and ones that are not clones to existing Chevys, I think they could do well. Apparently, Saturn dealers are riding high on the hog right now with six-month advance orders for the Sky - it is the most desirable model they have ever had to sell.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
One thing to keep mind is that the US-market car was likely modified to serve what are perceived to be American tastes. That effort to please Americans generally includes a softening of suspensions, which of course will compromise handling, and may have also affected the ride height. (As an example, US-market VW GTI's ride higher than do the German ones in order to comply with US bumper-height requirements.)
While reading reviews of the foreign press might provide some useful insights about the car generally, you can't assume that the cars are identical. I'm not sure what signficant changes were made to turn the Monaro into a GTO, but according to Road & Track, about 20% of the parts were different. And they considered the car's closest rival to be the Mustang Cobra, with no mention of the M-variant BMW's.
Loren
Cool looking wagon. Who cares about seeing out the back, just forge ahead. Never actually driven one, but reports say it is a bit limited in view out the back. Otherwise, it seems pretty cool, for those in need of a wagon.
Loren
Sure it doesn't compete with them, they are much higher priced cars. However it has been compared to them (at least the M5 and CLK) quite favorably. Go look it up.
Again, the “it has 400hp for $32K” argument. Doesn’t hold water. For the umpteen time, just because the car has 400hp it doesn’t mean it’s worth $32K. The sales numbers speak to that. Others made the same argument with the ’04 saying “it has 350hp for $33K”. IF it was worth it, why did so many people wait until the fire sales to start buying the ’04 AND were waiting for fire sales with the ’05?
As you pointed out, it is well known the dealers screwed up on this. They put ridiculous markups on the 04s, would not let people test drive them, and then when they didn't sell, everyone got word of the improved 05s and waited for those.
Yes sales didn't meet the intended target, and in that regard you can call it a flop. That doesn't make the car good or bad however, remember the Impala SS?
Why is it whenever you quote something from a magazine or TV show it’s absolutely, positively, 100% accurate but when someone else quotes something negative from the same magazine about the car, they’re wrong, they don’t know what they’re talking about? Seeing as though you haven’t tested your car, any other GTO for that matter (you admitted it remember) or completed comparison tests, how do you know what’s correct and what’s not in terms of 0-60, ¼-mile, slalom, lateral-grip, braking. So you’re kind of a hypocrite. Don’t put people down simply because they don’t like the car and decided not to buy it.
What are you talking about? I am arguing with the one ridiculous slalom number comparison someone else is hung up on. By the way, just because I have not had my GTO at a track, doesn't mean I have not driven it and many other cars (Camry's included) on the same roads, and thus have a good feel for the performance of the cars. Unlike other people who test cars from the chairs of their computers and form judgements that way.
True. But the generation that makes that distinction is, well, dying out. And I'd say at this point, they've bought all the Buicks they're ever going to.
So GM wouldn't really anger that much of the car-buying public if they dropped Buick...